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| | The paradox of female liberationPage 2 of 11 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11) | For a country that celebrates "family values" so much, only about 40% of women in the workplace work for an employer who gives maternity leave, 12 weeks at zero compensation.
Our neighbors, Canada, give 17-41 weeks with 60% compensation for 15 weeks. Sweden tops the list with 12-52 weeks with 90% compensation for 38 weeks and less a percent for more time after that.
This country is pretty brutal on families, all around. Pretty good to our CEOs, though! The rich, white men in Washington and the rich, white men running the corporations probably do more cuddling than the average husband and wife have time to do in America.
We could make women working AND solid families work here, if we wanted to. Other countries do.......or rather, walk the walk instead of talk the talk.......
But of course we have superwomen here, and supermen, too! We're America, Number One Superpower, right? . | |
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IQF
| | Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 27 | |
| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 4:47:10 PM | The flip side of having choices is that you now have to make choices, and for most people that implies not having it all. I think we often forget that even women who were not earning a paycheck were still working, and the family would benefit from that. If women stop doing that work at home, the work doesn't go away - either you have to get someone else to do it, or let it stay undone. As TigerWoods0924 pointed out (msg 20) some of these tasks may not be things you can subcontract to a maid service. In any case, I disagree that society as a whole expects women to do both, but they do expect women to do one or the other. A women who does both well is seen as exceptional.
So what are the men doing? Well... going to work to earn a paycheck for the most part. While there are stay-at-home dads, I'll venture that most of these are just working from home as writers, or freelancers or something anyway. The full-time stay-at-home dad is not currently an accepted role in society, so it's not a valid choice to make. Any man who makes this choice and sticks to it would be exceptional, thus men are still not liberated.
I feel sorry for the poor, downtrodden, white men who have been emasculated by societal changes that now give women choices about their lives. Apparently men are so weak that the only way they could assert their masculinity was to control and repress women. I noticed this when I worked in construction. These big, strong guys were so threatened by my presence. Here I was, 5'6", 128#, and they felt threatened by me! They didn't think I could do the job and in order to prove that, they would send me to do a job by myself that normally they would have two men do. When I would somehow manage to find a way to do it, they'd be even more p*ssed! Tsk, tsk. One can only feel sorry for such weak men.
Interesting way of phrasing thing. Are we equating physical size with power? Are we saying that men should not be threatened by women (only small-average-sized women?) making inroads into their traditional domains? Is construction work somehow symbolic of power and thus patriarchy? Construction work doesn't strike me as a particularly powerful role in society. If it's contemptible for men to find masculinity in their roles as construction workers, is it contemptible for women to find femininity in their roles as homemakers?
OK, so I picked on that a bit, but the undertone of this sort of comment is much more illuminating. Society expects a man to "be a man" and such in a way it doesn't expect women to. If men and women are equally "strong and capable", then it stands to reason that there will be some men that are weaker or less capable than most women. OTOH society punishes weak men very strongly in ways that it does not weak women. There's a certain amount of "sucking it up" that a man has to do that a woman does not as well, that is independent on a man's actual competence. Thus the weak man is weakened again with no recourse. Anyway though, this isn't a rant about men (we don't allow that anyway.) The point is that society expects a certain kind of personal power from men that involves being active, making decisions, and being accountable for their decisions. Men that fail these tests are judged harshly - by both women and other men. I think that as women gain the same power to choose, they will come to be judged just as harshly for the choices they make, and especially for lamenting bad ones. The system may have changed, but we're still slaves.
Demographics and politics? Yes, obviously fewer babies mean big changes. You either have to suck it up, or go have more babies. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 4:58:53 PM | Sometime ago I read a wise saying: Women can have everything, but just not all at the same time. That means.... Have a career. Enjoy it.... Learn and Grow from it. However, when you feel the time is right to have children.... In order to do that 'job'
well, you have to put your career on the back shelf (for the time being) Otherwise,
if you go back to work and dump your child off at daycare, you'll be burned out at work, (not doing a good job) and (burned out as a mother) also not doing a good job.
That translates into giving both jobs a disservice. You can't do it all! Nobody can.
Try to think of your life longterm..... Try to view it from the perspective of someone who is already say (60). Then you can look back and say. I had a fulfilling career for (x amount of yrs) Then... (I brought up my kids) for (x) amt of years and did that well too! Then you can look back and say. I DID IT ALL | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 5:06:05 PM | Msg: 28.
I can't imagine a woman, OR a man, wishing to tangle with that much burden. But, I DO agree with your assessment. Each burden must be tackled INDIVIDUALLY, and NOT all at once. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 5:06:51 PM | I'm with Tigerwoods on this; you can try to have it all, but only you can make that decision and then you have to realize it's gonna be a tough road - if you're ok with that it's cool.
I agree that women's liberation was about choice only. So if you are a traditional woman who wants to get married, have kids and raise them instead of working or while working part time you can find a man who wants the same and do so; while if you are a woman who wants to work before getting married, work and never get married, have kids, or not, you are free to choose that road with no societal pressure.
I think in a way it liberated men too in the sense that they are now also free to choose the type of woman they want to date or marry, or choose to remain single with no pressure to work, marry, support a family. I see women's lib as letting men off the hook - now while if they are into the traditional lifestyle they can certainly choose it, they can also forego that, spend their money on themselves and they don't have to worry about the welfare of taking care of a wife. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 5:10:08 PM | msg 26
This country is pretty brutal on families, all around. Pretty good to our CEOs, though! The rich, white men in Washington and the rich, white men running the corporations probably do more cuddling than the average husband and wife have time to do in America. You got that right,Stefano , it may come as a shock to everyone except those in Wabamun , Alberta, that CN's CEO is American and has no problem raping and pillaging Canada's resources and running Canadian engineers ragged to make a buck .
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/6662/3/cn+derailment+++in+prince+george | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 5:36:23 PM |
Feminism devalues men lower than the garbage found in inline sewage.
With all due respect, *that* statement is garbage.
By the way - sewage lines contain sewage, not garbage. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 7:14:31 PM | | Seems to me most things in life are like a Paradox, However as a really cool swing song says(whadda want)? We give in to someone elses reality all the time, meaning society/goverment/schools/ etc(myself im breaking out of these sheep following systems- That Tells us what is right with Kids or Marriage /How to live ,what to wear/ what movies to watch, bla bla bla, again what do you want?(if you want it all, you"ll pay the price for that) if you scale down with bigger houses 2 Suv"s or whatever, find creative ways to live the way You want and forgettabout it, in the sense of other peoples reality Telling You who to be, someone gave You these Rules of modern living, just like they do with other nations like Tyranical South American Goverments, or Communist Regimes or American democratic so called freedom(only for the brave hearts who know the real American history which is nothing more than the Good old boy club) well i wont go there, to much heat for that subject. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 7:32:33 PM |
It certainly has brought to light certain people's weakness of mind and not a little bit of petulousness from those whose foreFATHERS had previously reaped the benefits of oppressing others.
*crosses arms in equally stubborn pose*
Oppression huh?? PROVE IT. You cant. You're standing on a soap box filled with air, and are making arguements with psuedo facts.
You want to talk about equality?? Bring it.. but along with that, bring facts... not propaganda you've swallowed from a 4 decades of feminism.
Here's a FACT for you....
At the age of 18 ALL MALES are expected to register for the Selective Service.... Failure to do so carries stiff penalties. $25000 fines and/or up to 5 years in prison.
Failure to register also means you do NOT get the right to Vote. But a woman only has to sign up for a voters registration card
In some states, should you fail to register, you also DO NOT get a drivers license... a woman just stands in God awful lines, takes a test and gets a license...
Again, in some states, failure to register also means you dont get Student Aid for college... what does a woman do?? Sign a piece of paper....
So you want to talk about weakness of mind?? Look who is mocking facts... with feminist propaganda... Just go drink your koolaid... | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 7:59:36 PM | "...At the age of 18 ALL MALES are expected to register for the Selective Service.... Failure to do so carries stiff penalties. $25000 fines and/or up to 5 years in prison.
Failure to register also means you do NOT get the right to Vote. But a woman only has to sign up for a voters registration card
In some states, should you fail to register, you also DO NOT get a drivers license... a woman just stands in God awful lines, takes a test and gets a license...
Again, in some states, failure to register also means you dont get Student Aid for college... what does a woman do?? Sign a piece of paper....
So you want to talk about weakness of mind?? Look who is mocking facts... with feminist propaganda... Just go drink your koolaid..."
Okay; here's a FACT for you: women had to fight for the 'right' to join the service--AND had to (no pun intended) fight for the right to actually engage in combat.
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:07:59 PM |
Failure to register also means you do NOT get the right to Vote. But a woman only has to sign up for a voters registration card
Here's a FACT for ya. Women didn't even get the right to vote until 1920, after a 70-year battle. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:16:41 PM | Wow, people expressed so many interesting opinions on this subject! Thank you!
I truly didn't expect this reaction!
But let's try to be a bit detached and not turn this thread into some sort of fight.
Every opinion is equally valid :))
I find men, though, complain that feminism somehow "oppresses" , in a way, them.
Why does it?
Not sure about military service ( btw there are countries in world where both males and females serve in the army), but say in workplace....
To the best of my knowledge in many professional environments, males get more money for the same job, men get more promotions, after all how many female CEO,
COO, and VPs are there...
Again, Ms. Clinton is not gonna be our president ...
Sure, I'm giver a right to vote and work, but men, as far as I'm concerned, do rule the world
BTW, I'm not saying whether it's good or bad, it's just one fact that shows that there is no real oppression towards men | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:22:31 PM |
I can't imagine a woman, OR a man, wishing to tangle with that much burden. But, I DO agree with your assessment. Each burden must be tackled INDIVIDUALLY, and NOT all at once.
How credible a resource do you consider yourself on the topic of a woman's ability to raise children and pursue a career? It sounds like you've written The Final Word: MUST be tackled individually. Really? Come on, now. Besides, the idea that you'd consider children or a career a "burden" may implicate a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Here's the real deal (pssssssst ... over here): Successfully raising healthy, productive, respectful, generous children is possible while concurrently pursuing a successful career. The key is that a person has to want to succeed at both.
Smoke that pipe for awhile. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:32:22 PM | But it seems to me that nowadays the society expects that a woman should be successful at her work place as well as as a mother and a wife.
I think this can be the result of female liberation if you let it! My perception of female liberation is that it now gives women choices.... the choice to stay at home with your children, if you choose..... the choice to be a career woman, if you choose.... the choice to be in a traditionally male-dominated profession, and be treated as an equal. (yes, I know the total equal treatment isn't there... but we are closer than we were 50 yrs ago).
The point I am making...... we have the choices now.... more than we have ever had.... but along with that freedom to chose, we now also have the challenge of doing things that aren't always easy.... we also have the responsibility to believe in ourselves enough to take calculated risks..... we are not following in our parents footsteps... so we have to step away from what society "expects". It may not be easy...... but nothing in worthwhile in life is easy. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:36:25 PM | I've been hearing about "super woman" for the past 20 years. In all honesty, I've never met her. But I have met a lot of complainers and people looking for a pat on the back.
I've raised my kids alone, worked full time, cleaned, cooked, school, soccer, baseball, .... Big deal. It's not hard. You're busy. That's it. Nothing more. I have to admit that taking care of a drunk too almost pushed me over the top. But now that she's out of the picture, it's a breeze.
People who burn out are doing something wrong. If they have a lazy partner, they should dump their ass. If they're single, then I suspect they don't like the fact (at least subconsciously) that they have to put a chunk of their lives on the back burner while raising their kids, and it's stressing the crap out of them.
"Homemaking" had NEVER existed, and when women had that option a few decades ago, feminists took it away from them in the guise of "helping women". That's not what I'd call a paradox.
the choice to stay at home with your children... choice....choice
I keep hearing the word choice too, and it freaking cracks me up. :roll:
As if it's a decree you issue with no regard for your partner's thoughts on the subject. I can hear people calling a man a lazy mother*ucker if he decided to stay home with the kids, just because he had the choice.
....... Hey..... did you notice something? The CHOICE you think you have is an illusion. You don't have any more choices than you had 70 years ago. That goes for men too. You do what you must to get ahead. Unless of course, you chose not to.
You don't even have the choice to have your partner charged if they smack you around. The cops do, but they don't always do that right? | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 9:10:34 PM | Gloria Steinem coined the phrase "SuperWoman" back in the 70's ... sometime in the '90's she said in an interview on 60 Minutes (paraphrasing here) that it was a lie, the feminist movement was never about "having it all"
To the best of my knowledge in many professional environments, males get more money for the same job, men get more promotions, after all how many female CEO,
COO, and VPs are there...
Again, Ms. Clinton is not gonna be our president ...
Several other countries, Canada included, have had female Presidents/Prime Ministers. For the most part, women don't want these jobs. Although political parties have spent money attempting to recruit more female candidates it has been tough to shake them out of the trees... frankly it is because these jobs suck when you have a family.
My (much older) sister was a CEO, a President for a different company, and was a first ever female to sit on a particular Board... she had an interesting career and a nanny.
I never thought I would have children. I was a partner in a firm at the time I had my daughter. Rapidly gave up on the myth of the SuperWoman... not because I recognized it as a lie, but rather I realized I was a total failure at it. I either had to grow a spine and actually say 'no' to clients and reduce my hours at work (fat chance of that personal growth happening, lol) or shift my career into something I found challenging, had a decent pay packet but ALSO gave me the luxury of time to be with my daughter. (oh, and I make the same as men in my current career too) Having a kid completely reordered my priorities in life. Sometimes I miss the big $$, but the time with my daughter has been priceless. Interesting that what I thought at the time was my failure ended up being what has enriched my life the most. The perspective of time can do that with some of our life choices.
In my experience the glass ceiling existed but has been shattered. In my neck of the woods the only reason for a woman not to make the same amount of dollars as a man in the same field is largely because they (massive generalization follows) are poorer negotiators or are working less hours/less complex situations. It's choice. In fact, wages become virtually the same in many careers when you compare single women with men. Married women and women with children are making different choices... they are making more family centered choices that don't capitalize on their earning power but likely are giving them massive returns on quality of life. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/19/2008 9:31:28 PM | To Margo!
It was a pleasure to read your posting. Thank you!
And congrats on meeting your guy here
:) | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/20/2008 12:45:16 AM | So let me get this straight...First off you North American modern gals, whine and complain that you are oppressed, from having to be just mothers and/or domestics,
then, you have your so called liberation and you are all starting to whine and complain about the liberation as well...welcome to the "Corporate" world and the true
"working class" and now you see, that it isn't what you thought it is, it isn't liberation
what so ever, it is "oppression"... and us men knew this all along...So many of us,
have talked and dreamed of just staying home with the kids and doing domesticated things, but, if we were to choose that path, then were not viewed as "real men"
are we???....
It works both ways...we all are oppressed,,,and feminism is just an "ism"... | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/20/2008 5:37:29 AM |
Here's a FACT for ya. Women didn't even get the right to vote until 1920, after a 70-year battle.
And another one comes out of the woodwork...
You've made my point... after a period of b!tching enough, it was given to women. They dont have to put their name on a list to get drafted. They dont earn it. They expect it... but do nothing for it....
Another round of Koolaid please.... | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/20/2008 5:45:57 AM | here is te key: do what makes you happy, not what the society expects!
after all you live in america, which is supposed to be, at least in theory, a free country!
good luck.
nowadays the society expects that a woman should be successful at her work place as well as as a mother and a wife.
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/20/2008 7:50:00 AM | Kudos as usual to ItsMargo for that wonderful commentary of her personal situation as a professional female. I just want to comment further to something interesting she posted:
Several other countries, Canada included, have had female Presidents/Prime Ministers. For the most part, women don't want these jobs. Although political parties have spent money attempting to recruit more female candidates it has been tough to shake them out of the trees... frankly it is because these jobs suck when you have a family.
This is a huge point that I often encounter in engineering as well. There have been tons of studies conducted over the last few decades now that women's acceptance and respect in the workforce and education system has reached a palatable level in our society. However there remain certain professions where women simply aren't represented in large numbers, but in this day and age, is that a reflection of a exclusionary Boy's Club, or is it simply that women by and large still don't CHOOSE those particular types of jobs? 
I was reading an article in my engineering ethics book which commented on the lack of adequate representation of females in engineering, yet it also mentioned that upon being surveyed, most women responded that they preferred "fulfilling careers where they had a sense of giving something back to the community", whereas most men didn't care WHAT they did so long as the got paid, and paid well.
I think it's the prime reason you see certain industries still dominated by women (e.g. education, nursing, etc.), and others by men (engineering, etc.) It's not that women or men are incapable of the other positions - when they actually do enroll, they are paid an equal salary to a member of the opposite sex doing the same job. However the career paths THEMSELVES have different pay scales: for instance I make nearly twice the average starting salary for a Canadian primary school teacher, and I'm only 28.
I knew that, hence why I CHOSE engineering over teaching. I could have easily gone that route instead (I loved tutoring), but I wanted money, so I sold a portion of myself to get it. Most of my female friends seem unwilling to make that same sacrifice, and hence they gladly accept career paths that are more fulfilling, but pay less...
Men can't be faulted at that point, and that is where the beauty of female liberation comes in: the CHOICE to pursue whatever ideals you hold dearest to you, be it money, family, career fulfillment, etc...  | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/20/2008 8:30:00 AM | ^^^^
I totally agree with Tiger and Margo.... I worked as an electronics technician for about 20 yrs.... before moving into technical writing, as I have been doing for the past 10 yrs. In the electronics field, there were only ever 2 other female technicians that I worked with.... and that was with a huge multi-national company. They very actively tried to get female techs..... with very little success.... and yes, we got the same pay as the men. Time and time again, when I told other women what I did for a living, I got "Oh, I could never do that"....... BINGO! ..... and that is why you can't - you have convinced yourself of it.
As a technical writer, I write software manuals for a living.... and the overwhelming majority of the developers I work with are male..... why???...... don't tell me women can't do it - there is under 10 females in a company of over 200. Software developers make a great paycheque, and the benefits and perks are excellent... and as women, we don't want to do this WHY??? I believe we can do whatever we tell ourselves we can.... but the flip side of it is, we can also talk ourselves OUT of things just as easily and effectively.
I have made similar life choices as Margo - I am a single mom of three kids... and they are all now responsible young adults, going into university, etc.... but I also made the choices necessary to make that happen. I stayed at home when they were tiny, then went back to school to allow my current career - not so many odd hours, etc. BUT... my house is not spotless..... I shop discount stores when I can...... my car is almost 10 yrs old....... I order out for supper frequently..... but I can honestly say "I LIKE my kids!" I haven't always been popular with my opinions, and I am sure I have ticked off a few bosses ..... but I have done what was necessary to live my life in a way that works for me and mine. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/20/2008 9:01:13 AM | "You've made my point... after a period of b!tching enough, it was given to women. They dont have to put their name on a list to get drafted. They dont earn it. They expect it... but do nothing for it...."
Do you actually read what's posted?
Women did not have the right to vote GIVEN to them.
They had to fight for that right, as did anyone else who was not a White, land-owning male.
Why so bitter about the military?
If you don't like the way things are, then go after making a change.
Mere women did it; so can you. | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:00:32 AM | Many valuable points in this thread. The bottom line is that with rights come responsibilities. Women cannot perform the same functions as men, each gender has its strength and flaws.
I am ok with women serving in the military, however combat units should be off limit for females. They cannot take it, I have been there and witness it. Why do some women feel the need to measure up to their male counterpart? | |
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| The paradox of female liberation
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:10:20 AM |
Do you actually read what's posted?
Women did not have the right to vote GIVEN to them.
They had to fight for that right, as did anyone else who was not a White, land-owning male.
Why so bitter about the military?
If you don't like the way things are, then go after making a change.
Mere women did it; so can you
Ummm yeah... I do read whats posted. Do you, within the context of the previous/subsequent posts??
As for fighting... Where/when did women "fight" for the right to vote?? As for "anyone else who was not a White, land owning male." Please.... We're talking about a gender issue, not a racial one. So, stick to the same subject...
As far as "bitter about the military" Im not. I spent my time in for king and country... My point is simple... Women want equality, but only when it comes at no risk to themselves... They are equal... except when the check comes...
Ive said it before... Rights, Responsibilities and Priveleges. All too often people get them mixed up... Priveleges have become Rights... and Responsibilities are someone elses problem...
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