| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 9:37:57 PM | You know I seem to recall about 4 years ago, someone named Kerry was waiving around his Vietnam paper cuts like the red bagde of courage, and all the dems were crying about how Bush was a "deserter" and crap like that. Remember how great a hero Kerry was?
Now we hand you a real hero and you try to paint him to be a crybaby, even when he's on your side some of the time.
It amazes me how the odor changes when the same shoe is on the other guys foot. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 9:39:29 PM | 04,
what you are referring to is the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 which applied to the military but exempted the CIA.
what you neglect to mention is that mccain essentially struck a deal with the administration in defiance of cheney.
- The McCain amendement to the 2005 Torture Measure did nothing to stop the abuse and torture because:
- The Act exempted the CIA which operates black site prisons and engages in rendition.
- it leaves the enforcement of the bill up to the White House and denies prisoners judical review (habeas corpus rights).
- Although Bush accepted McCain's amendment in defiance of Cheney, Bush also signed the legislation with a signing statement stating in which he declares he'll ignore the statute whenever he wants to. On this McCain has been silent.
Legislation in 2008 sought to close the CIA loophole by simply requiring the CIA to adhere to the same standards as the military's US Army Field Manual on Interrogation. McCain opposed this measure solely on the premise that HE DIDN'T WANT TO TIE THE CIA'S HANDS ON TORTURE! MCCAIN URGED THE PRESIDENT TO VETO THE MEASURE!!
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/todays_must_read_276.php
In McCain's statement, McCain advised that he opposes waterboarding, but Atty Gen Mukasey had already testified before the Senate that Waterboarding would be possible!
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/01/mukasey_shocks_bidens_conscien.php
So, that makes McCain a hypocrite.
YOU CLAIM MCCAIN HAS CHARACTER FOR ENDURING TORTURE,
BUT HE RETAINS THIS CHARACTER DESPITE HIS ENDORSEMENT OF TORTURE. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 9:49:16 PM | Ready,
Are you implying that you still believe the Swiftboaters?
I believe that Swift Boat funder and Bush Ambassador to Belgium nominee, Sam Fox confirmed in SWORN SENATE TESTIMONY that John Kerry is a hero and that the Swift Boaters lied about it.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/28/senator-kerry-confronts-swift-boat-funder/ | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 10:04:04 PM | Erik: I certainly don't disagree that McCain (A SENATOR) got outmaneuvered by Bush (A PRESIDENT) in some aspects of this issue. However, McCain has made it clear, undeniably clear, that he is opposed to waterboarding. Now at current time, and in his current position, there is only so much he can do from his current position on every aspect of the issue, and in fact, he's made no bones about how he interprets the laws much more conservatively than the Bush administration does....but he also doesn't have control over them. When McCain is elected, I predict that we will see him further tighten the reigns where needed on this. If you are against waterboarding too, I'd vote for McCain who will see this fixed. I have not heard Obama set any position on this at all btw (should we go so far as to speculate that a vote for Obama is a vote for continuation of the practice?...no, at this point I would endorse us republicans to have more restraint on that kind of mud slinging).
And, as I said before, I'd like to ask you if you know of any congress-person more outspoken than McCain on seeing to it that the highest moral standards are respected. Any Democrats out there?
PS: And thanks again OP for making this thread highlighting yet another area in which McCain is NOT Bush. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 10:11:00 PM | "I have been consistent in my strong belief that no Administration should allow the use of torture, including so-called 'enhanced interrogation techniques' like water-boarding, head-slapping, and extreme temperatures. It's time that we had a Department of Justice that upholds the rule of law and American values, instead of finding ways to enable the President to subvert them. No more political parsing or legal loopholes. I cannot support Judge Mukasey unless he clearly and unequivocally rejects techniques like water-boarding."
Statement by Barack Obama, October 29, 2007 | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 10:12:47 PM | o4,
the link i offered showed that general mukasey testified before the senate that waterboarding would be possible.
what mccain says about waterboarding is meaningless if he doesn't act on it.
all he had to do is vote yes to prevent the waterboarding that he detests. isn't that the meaning of character?
if he doesn't vote yes, then he's a HYPOCRITE! right?
and yes there are other republicans who are more adamantly against waterboarding than mccain. you might want to start with the five republican senators who voted for the measure.
senators collins, hagel, lugar, smith, and snowe.
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00022
they oppose torture and they walk the walk.
then again, finding a republican who is against torture more than mccain is like finding a bear that is more against picnic baskets than yogi. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 10:34:50 PM |
John McCain has been a very vocal opponent of the current climate of using torture against our enemies and calling it everything but. He is also very strongly against the Gitmo prison camp and has pledged to close it down if elected.
McCain's position on torture is one of verbal statements that he hates it, and a mixed voting record on the their treatment.
He voted to not give them Habeus Corpus. He compromised on torture by saying that the president could interpret the geneva conventions, if they cause "serious" physical harm"
of course the administration gets to interpret what serious physical harm is.
McCain isn't a proponent of torture, it's more a case of "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing" | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 10:38:08 PM | First, I think it is pretty funny that the only conservative to get the premise was 04, not sure what prize you get buddy, but I'm sure the rest will receive some lovely parting gifts. . .
The irony for me is either McCain told the truth when he confessed to the Viet Cong, which supports his new position that torture is useful, or he lied to them, which conflicts with his current position. So, he is lying now or telling the truth then!
He DID flip flop on torture, though, flip flop is too light of a phrase for what this means. I know, because after that, I lost ANY respect I had for him as a leader.
I wrote him a letter, his response; to inform me that I didn't understand the measures necessary to protect our nation. . .
I beg to differ!
He was courageous then and I respect his service, but anyone who would lose the one moral high ground that makes them who they are, just for a shot at support from the neocons, is NOT A LEADER! | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 10:46:30 PM | Thanks Nomadic. I missed that quote by Obama. I'm glad he's in McCain's camp too.
Exi: just send me a virtual beer, and I'll do the same the next time I see you deserving of one too. Love ya man..... | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 11:10:12 PM |
You know I seem to recall about 4 years ago, someone named Kerry was waiving around his Vietnam paper cuts like the red bagde of courage, and all the dems were crying about how Bush was a "deserter" and crap like that. Remember how great a hero Kerry was?
Now we hand you a real hero and you try to paint him to be a crybaby, even when he's on your side some of the time.
It amazes me how the odor changes when the same shoe is on the other guys foot.
Jeez.. the republicans should be the last ones to complain after the hack job they did on Kerry...
I think the republican smear campaign against Kerry was a success, and might have cost him the election.
" It amazes me how the odor changes when the same shoe is on the other guys foot. " also applies to republicans when they get their "war hero" smeared. They can't handle it. I'm not saying it's right, but neither was the swiftvets.
If the republicans don't like that kind of stuff, why did they start it?
Just another dirty tactic introduced by republicans.
I'm not defending it. It's just a fact.
Maybe a good upshot of this will be that the republicans will stop slurring someone's record of honorable service in the US military so it doesn't come back at them in the next election?
I doubt it. There are many less republicans in Washington who've served in the nation's military than democrats...
I don't know if McCain was tortured by the North Vietnamese... there's a story out that he let them know right away that he was the son of an admiral and for that reason they considered him a very valuable prisoner and didn't mess with him too much... but that could be a lie.
What amazes me is... that if he was tortured, why does he now say that waterboarding is okay?
I don't get that... | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 11:23:44 PM |
'm glad that was all cleared up. John McCain only had a bit of "enhanced interrogation,"
I saw that on Jon Stewart last night. That was funny as hell.
John McCain has been a very vocal opponent of the current climate of using torture against our enemies and calling it everything but.
Oh, was THAT why he refused to sign the ban on torture. Okie doke.
I think you are a little behind on the times.
A lot of people here are. But I understand it. It's not that the love McCain (god knows he's not the first choice of the republican party but, right now, he's all they've got) but rather they enjoy hating liberals. You can taste it in the air here. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 11:25:25 PM | just for good order's sake, i'm not belittling what mccain experienced in vietnam.
it was absolutely torture and illegal and shouldn't be minimized. (much like the vietnam war itself).
hwoever, this same sense of seriousness and appreciation should be applied to john kerry's service, max cleland's service, john murtha's service, and the treatment of american and foreign pows.
i believe it was the republicans who swiftboated kerry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7vCGm33HAU
it was the republican jean schmidt who called murtha coward
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8FZ_nxmf0Y
it was republican saxy chambliss who compared max cleland to osama bin laden. (mccain and hagel protested this to their credit).
and the OP shows what happens to mccains record if we apply the logic that the republican party in general has been applying to torture.
however, obviously i don't believe that any liberal agrees with the white house's logic nor would they degrade mccain's service. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 11:47:38 PM | "As for his character, McCain:
1. voted against the anti-torture amendment to the intelligence authorization bill, which would have applied the same interrogation standards to the CIA as those McCain applied to the United States military.
2. led the effort to pass the Military Commissions Act, which among other things granted interrogators retroactive immunity for past instances of torture while establishing the military tribunal system that allows the executive branch the joint duties of judge and jury.
3. criticized a U.S. Supreme Court decision allowing detainees to challenge in an impartial court of law their imprisonment and secret evidence being used against them. (important for the evidence to be challenged if extracted through torture).
....
McCain's 95 percent support score for last year was the highest in the chamber. "
Is enhanced interrogation a euphamism for torture - of course. Even if a POW is only held prisoner try going and spending a few days in prison and you might change your point of view about it being anything but heroic.
Are current US war prisoners receiving much the same treatment that McCain did. Yes.
Even though he had lived through the experience they are having McCain still voted against ending the "enhanced interrogation."
However, to jump to a conclusion as to why he did or that this makes hin a person that approves of the behavior is an ASSumption. To claim flimsy excuses to show he doesn't are potential fallacies. Minor issues with the law could easily be handled with amendments to the law. Better to have some negotiable law than none. Soon as it passes you can start negotiating the changes you want. Just get something in place to stop the "enhanced toture." | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 11:54:16 PM | for clarification's sake,
mccain voted against legislation that would limit the CIA.
so, there is no legislation to fix.
and i'm not making any assumptions, i'm going off of his speech in the senate explaining his vote.
with the knowledge that the CIA is operating foreign prison "black sites" and engaging in kidnapping and extraoridnary rendition, despite his rhetoric, he voted keep the CIA loophole open.
if you had to ask me, his actionas had more to do with political expediency in a year that he's running for president, in much the same way he has chosen to embrace former foes president bush and the religious right.
which says little in the way of character to me, but it did get him his party's nomination.
it seems he cashed in his maverick persona to get in office. i don't believe that he will switch back to a maverick once he gets in office, because i never bought the maverick persona to begin with. his recent actions prove that he's politics as usual, not a maverick, and more of the same. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 6:56:07 AM | | How many of you lot have been tortured??? Bloody hell. Old soilders dont talk. Don't you know that? So don't ask them. If they want to talk, and they feel compfortable, then maybe they will say a little. If they dont , then they wont, and thats their want. So who the bloody hell are you to judge anyway????? Steve | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 7:00:05 AM |
How many of you lot have been tortured??? Bloody hell. Old soilders dont talk. Don't you know that? So don't ask them. If they want to talk, and they feel compfortable, then maybe they will say a little. If they dont , then they wont, and thats their want. So who the bloody hell are you to judge anyway????? Steve
You're missing the point. The poster thinks that he was tortured, but under the current administrations repeated definitions of torture, he was in fact only interrogated. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 7:10:59 AM | Stranger, I too would agree that soldiers who fight for their country should be respected and treated fairly. I guess the line being drawn is between soldiers defendint their nation-states and fanatical insurgents attempting to impose their bleak will upon not only nation states but the world. A member of an actual army, even a Guevaraist "national liberation front" is one thing, a terrorist is another and I don't know where to draw the line...maybe we should err on the side of gentleness but when we use the Marquis of Queensbury rules and the enemy uses ninjutsu how can we win?
Maybe it doesn't matter who wins...hope you all enjoy living under Sharia law, I'm sorry I won't! | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 7:26:38 AM | re:""""You know I seem to recall about 4 years ago, someone named Kerry was waiving around his Vietnam paper cuts like the red bagde of courage, and all the dems were crying about how Bush was a "deserter" and crap like that. Remember how great a hero Kerry was? Now we hand you a real hero and you try to paint him to be a crybaby, even when he's on your side some of the time. It amazes me how the odor changes when the same shoe is on the other guys foot."""
HOW right you are .... all just "spin", isn't it?  | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 9:46:03 AM | eeeo4u, I don't think you need to worry about living under Sharia law just yet ..... I live on the east coast, me and the local militia keep guard and watch for flying carpets and dark, swarthy types with long, crooked daggers 24/7. So far, none but we've seen a lot of flying saucers, though!
One thing is true, though, "the enemy" is not going to play by our rules. They do that and they lose.
Luckily, though, "the enemy" is not as big or as bad as people may think and given suicide tactics, eventually they'll snuff themselves out.
Note that more women, mentally retarded and even mentally retarded women are being used in suicide attacks, so what does that say? There is a stealth component using women, but also..... they will get very hard up for people to blow themselves up and probably are already.
Winning means staying alive to fight another day.........that's all we need to do. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:03:28 AM | I think many confuse McCain being obviously injured with being 'tortured'. Of course, McCain was injured in 'nam. However, there is NO evidence, besides his word and perhaps a few others with him, that he actually was tortured. Coincidently, those who claim to have 'been there' are also his political supporters which makes their objectivity suspect. It would be great if one could identify someone who was with him in the Hanoi Hotel and saw him tortured, but doesn't support his political candidacy (s0lely on the basis of political, not personal differences). One of the VietCong prison guards, who incidently is now 'friends' with McCain, insists that McCain was not tortured. But then again, it would be hard to give that much credence either.
Other stories by McCain, like the soldier tracing a cross in the sand (a possible Solzhenitsyn's "The Gulag Archipelago" ripoff) seem to be very much like Hillary Clinton's sniper encounter in the Balkans. All this makes McCain somewhat less believeable. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:13:11 AM | | Stefano, they're scared of you guys...especially the Italians in the North End and the Irish in Southie...nope, they're sneaking down through Alberta and Manitoba disguised as Blackfoot Indians!!! | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:27:31 AM |
Maybe it doesn't matter who wins...hope you all enjoy living under Sharia law, I'm sorry I won't!
eeeo4u: So you're saying that if we don't torture, then we'll wind up losing the war on terror? ... and that's the reason we'll lose it?
You didn't write that, but your comment seems to imply that.
Your comment also seems to make the assumption that if we then lose that war, the Muslims will invade us, overthrow our government, throw the US constitution out the window and we here in the US will be living under Muslim law.
and that's why we're invading them?
False dilemma?
Straw man argument?
ridiculous assumptions based on nothing but dogma?
I think so.
Get real, Dude. Don't write things that insult everyone's intelligence. If you have a point, you should make it and if you don't... then don't. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 12:40:26 PM | | I don't believe we need to torture anybody. However, I do believe that prisoners of war and terrorists are two different categories of people. I also believe that people willing to sacrifice their children, mentally challenged people, and themselves will not be discouraged by anything less than total defeat and humiliation...I honestly think if Bush 41 had put Saddam away in 1991 12 years later his son would not have had us in Iraq, mainly because Saddam was hailed as a victor by his fellow Arabs since we let him live...mercy is a sign of weakness. | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 12:57:46 PM | Amnesty International and the New York Times have never visited McCain when he was a detainee in North Vietnam. McCain has still not whine and cry to Amnesty International and the media like the detainees at Club Gitmo, which they do best outside of killing innocent people.
It turns out that the most unpleasant aspect of life at Guantanamo for the detainees came with the move out of the temporary Camp X-Ray. Apparently, wanton homosexual sex among the inmates is more difficult in their newer, more commodious quarters. (Suspiciously, detainees retailing outlandish tales of abuse to the ACLU often include the claim that they were subjected to prolonged rectal exams. ) Plus, the views of the Caribbean aren't quite as good from their new suites.
Each detainee's cell has a sink installed low to the ground, "to make it easier for the detainees to wash their feet" before Muslim prayer, Saar reports. Detainees get "two hot halal, or religiously correct, meals" a day in addition to an MRE (meal ready to eat). Loudspeakers broadcast the Muslims' call to prayer five times a day.
Every detainee gets a prayer mat, cap and Koran. Every cell has a stenciled arrow pointing toward Mecca. Moreover, Gitmo's library, yes, library, is stocked with Jihadi books. Even the tales of "torture" being pawned off by the detainees on credulous American journalists are pretty lame.
The Washington Post reported that a detainee at Guantanamo says he was "threatened with sexual abuse."
One detainee in Afghanistan told a hyperventilating reporter for Salon that he was forced to stand with his arms in the air for "hours." Others claimed they were forced into uncomfortable, unnatural positions, sort of like the Democrats' position on abortion. Next, the interrogators will be threatening to slightly undercook the Lemon Chicken!
According to Times magazine, "The best-behaved detainees are held in Camp 4, a medium-security, communal-living environment with as many as 10 beds in a room; prisoners can play soccer or volleyball outside up to nine hours a day, eat meals together and read Agatha Christie mysteries in Arabic."
Maybe the White House assumed McCain received all of these accommodations too? | |
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| White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 1:05:28 PM | Thanks for the tour.
Contrary to your opinion, I would guess that the the 'most unpleasant aspect of life' for many?/most?/all? incarcerated at Gitmo would be that they haven't been charged with anything. | |
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