| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/25/2008 4:43:56 PM | | Yes I have...and have you seen the hardware the drug gangs pack nowadays not to mention the organized robbery gangs like the guys in bulletproof vests and automatic weapons who held off the LAPD for what seemed like forever, and the two lowlifes in Florida who had the gun battle with the FBI??? | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/25/2008 5:00:32 PM | And did you hear about the Mayor who had the police bust into his house and kill his dogs?
Did you hear about the cops who bust into the wrong house and shot that old lady to death?
Did you hear about the 19 year old boy who was tased to death while he was in handcuffs?
etc, etc, etc................. | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/25/2008 5:01:55 PM | It's time for the hand-wringers, the bleeding hearts, and the lawyers to shut the hell up and let our military do what it's paid to do, and that is kill the enemy, accomplish the objectives they are given, and then come home
I'm sorry eeeo4u and shotgun. I understand that you have served and that these dangerous professions often feel undervalued, and sometimes even persecuted.
I agree that things happen in war that are not to the average civilian's moral liking. However, there is a big difference between killing another soldier (kill or be killed situations) and torturing or killing noncombatants. The first is understandable because we all have the right to defend our lives, but the second is not acceptable and those who choose that course of action must be held accountable--not just to protect two Iraqi women, but to protect your own wives, daughters, sisters, mothers if the situation ever becomes reversed!
Best wishes,
Nutt | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/25/2008 5:31:42 PM | | And that is the problem with this war and with Vietnam before it...where you can't tell the noncombatants from the combatants. An enemy who will strap explosives to children and mentally handicapped people and send them into our troops...I'm sorry they're not like us and never will be. I hope my daughter, my grandchildren resist totalitarians but I don't expect their precious lives to be held as less valuable than a cause... | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/25/2008 6:07:51 PM | ^^^Whothehellknows just what he said. These people are ignoring the Geneva convention. Wearing normal civilian clothes, shooting from behind women and children, shooting from mosques and shooting from hospital windows. Comparing our soldiers to these etxtreme islamists is sick or it would be laughable!
These soldiers are severly handcuffed and it is very dissapointing to me that they are asked to go over there to rid the world of these people that dont like the way we live and want to kill us but then are told you cant shoot untill your buddy next to you is hit in the head.
If this soldier shot two Iraqi women for target practice he deserves the highest punishment they can give him! | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/25/2008 6:24:18 PM | 'I too find it an interseting turn of events. Now, if we can just get Bush, Cheney and their little gang tried for murder ". . . yeah, what is it they are responsible for now, 80,000 Iraq people, plus 4,000 American troops, plus 5 million homeless immigrants Bush can chalk up to his little campaign of "I am far more important and powerful than you are." Aren't soldiers trained to kill, and the more the merrier?  | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/25/2008 7:27:00 PM | And did you hear about the Mayor who had the police bust into his house and kill his dogs?
Did you hear about the cops who bust into the wrong house and shot that old lady to death?
Did you hear about the 19 year old boy who was tased to death while he was in handcuffs?
etc, etc, etc.................
I too find it an interseting turn of events. Now, if we can just get Bush, Cheney and their little gang tried for murder ". . . yeah, what is it they are responsible for now, 80,000 Iraq people, plus 4,000 American troops, plus 5 million homeless immigrants Bush can chalk up to his little campaign of "I am far more important and powerful than you are." Aren't soldiers trained to kill, and the more the merrier?
Now which has the highest soap box?
By the way that 19 yr old didn't die.
When are we going to take our realism pill and quit whining about Bush and Cheney? | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/25/2008 7:31:25 PM | | Not that it matters, but in the interest of factual accuracy you probably have to put another 0 on the end of that number of Iraqi people. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 34 | |
| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/27/2008 9:05:16 AM | On the case cited in the OP, I read the other day that the Marines who were called to testify against their fellow Marine refused to do so (not surprisingly) and were held in contempt of court (so far) but have not been jailed for it, while the trial goes ahead as planned. Meanwhile, in somewhat similar news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080827/us_nm/iraq_usa_soldiers_dc
~ U.S. soldiers say they executed Iraqis on riverbank ~
report 1 hour, 36 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Three U.S. soldiers killed four handcuffed and blindfolded Iraqi prisoners with pistol shots on the bank of a Baghdad canal last year, the New York Times reported on Wednesday.
Sergeant First Class Joseph P. Mayo, the platoon sergeant, and Sergeant Michael P. Leahy Jr., Company D's senior medic and an acting squad leader, made sworn statements in January to Army investigators in Schweinfurt, Germany probing the incident, the newspaper reported on its website.
The men each described killing one of the Iraqi detainees, as directed by First Sergeant John E. Hatley, according to the statements. Hatley shot two other detainees with a pistol in the back of the head, Mayo and Leahy told investigators, according to the NYT.
U.S. soldiers cannot harm enemy combatants once they are disarmed and in custody, the NYT said.
A spokesman for the U.S. Army in Europe declined to comment, saying he could not speculate on any future legal action.
David Court, the lawyer in Germany named by the NYT as representing Hatley, was not immediately reachable.
According to Leahy's statement, cited by the NYT, Army officials directed Hatley's convoy to release the men because there was insufficient evidence to detain them.
"First Sergeant Hatley then made the call to take the detainees to a canal and kill them," as retribution for the deaths of two soldiers from the unit, Leahy said in his statement.
"So the patrol went to the canal, and First Sergeant, Sgt. First Class Mayo and I took the detainees out of the back of the Bradley (fighting vehicle), lined them up and shot them," he added, according to The Times. "Then we pushed the bodies into the canal and left."
After the men were killed, Hatley told Leahy and Mayo to remove the Iraqis' bloody blindfolds and plastic handcuffs, according to the newspaper. The three soldiers then shoved the bodies into the canal and drove back to their combat outpost, the paper said.
No charges have been filed against Hatley, Mayo or Leahy -- all from Company D, First Battalion, Second Infantry, 172nd Infantry Brigade.
However, four other soldiers have been charged with conspiracy to commit premeditated murder relating to an incident that occurred last year in Baghdad, the U.S. Army in Europe said in a statement last month.
A hearing in that case opened on Tuesday and is still going on in the southern German town of Vilseck, the U.S. Army spokesman said on Wednesday.
(Additional reporting by Madeline Chambers in Berlin) | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/28/2008 5:17:19 PM | http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26443458
Follow this link to find that Nazario has been found not guilty by a jury of his peers.So apparently he is more innocent than a lot of our posters thought. | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/29/2008 6:37:21 AM | Follow this link to find that Nazario has been found not guilty by a jury of his peers.So apparently he is more innocent than a lot of our posters thought.
Here is another one.
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20080828/Marines.Fallujah/
I am happy he was found "Not Guilty" | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 37 | |
| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/29/2008 7:29:00 AM | http://news.aol.com/article/ex-marine-acquitted-in-killing-of-iraqis/143836
He was found not guilty, correct. Hopefully the jury made the right decision after really hearing a preponderance of evidence which convinced them he did not do this, rather than just being swayed by "support the troops" jingoism. Still, the verdict is the verdict so I will take the jury at their word. I'm happy the case set a precedent for trying armed service members in standard civilian courts however if or when they are charged with potential war crimes such as these. Ideally the soldier(s) in the link to the other story I posted above (at the end of Msg34) would be brought back here and tried this way as well, but it seems they are being tried by the military , in Germany. | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/29/2008 7:40:18 AM | | If you read the news stories on the verdict, the jury foreman says the jury believed that Nazario did shoot the unarmed Iraqis, but they didn't have enough proof of that to convict him, and his fellow Marines refused to testify against him. Not fair for the relatives of the Iraqi victims. | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/29/2008 7:42:21 AM | He had his day in court, and wasn't convicted by the jury. That's the way it goes, sometimes. There's a standard to be met, and it seems it was met.
Innocent until proven guilty. | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/29/2008 8:07:38 AM |
It's time for the hand-wringers, the bleeding hearts, and the lawyers to shut the hell up and let our military do what it's paid to do, and that is kill the enemy, accomplish the objectives they are given, and then come home.
And yes, I was in the military. I spent 12 years in the US Marines.
Isn't the point that this Marine was charged with murdering folks who were not the enemy? So the claim was that he was doing not what we charge our military personnel to do, but, murdering innocent people. Maybe you want that done in your name, I am not interested in having people who have done nothing but try to live their lives murdered.
As it stands, the man was found not guilty and just like OJ he will live the rest of his life in freedom.
You didn't have to tell us that you were a Marine. We could tell. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 41 | |
| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/29/2008 8:44:37 AM | | It's probably not the best verdict, IMO, given what the jury foreman has said. But, at the same time, they do have to have proof that will hold up in a US court of law. The burden of proof is on the accusers, so, like in the OJ case , even though technically OJ (most probably) had to have done it, evidently the burden of proof was not able to be met for whatever reasons. As I always said about the OJ case though, Karma is a different story than what can or can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. I still feel however that it's a good precedent to set that these soldiers or "contractors" or anyone else are not above being tried in a regular civilian court for crimes they're accused of having committed over there. | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/29/2008 8:45:16 AM | I usually never comment in the current event section although I am an avid reader here , BUT here goes nothing..
1. I am shocked when I see people carry on about complaining about the more swat teams and police . but YET i can bet money if they NEEDED the police or a swat team in their area to remove gangs or protect ,they would call upon these men to help and risk their own lives for others .
2. Now on to the marine . personally I have never been to war I have only heard from the brave military men and women who have . Being in a place where there are no code of honors on rather they are to be killed , where men use women and children as shields while they shoot at our military people . Where they have to be in a high mode of we have got to survive together and protect each other . I dont ever feel I can judge of what happened nor ever even make clear of why considering I was not there FIGHTING for my very life while running through a place where I could have been shot killed even had my own head cut off and burned on the street , for this reason I would not even feel comfortable judging and talking smut on a person who was there and had to live through things im sure will haunt him . | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/29/2008 8:54:29 AM | | I have been to war. I am glad he was exonerated. Now the Riverside, CA police force needs to at least offer to reinstate him (if I were him I wouldn't trust the back-stabbing b***ards) with full back pay! | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/29/2008 1:18:15 PM |
And that is the problem with this war and with Vietnam before it...where you can't tell the noncombatants from the combatants. An enemy who will strap explosives to children and mentally handicapped people and send them into our troops...I'm sorry they're not like us and never will be. I hope my daughter, my grandchildren resist totalitarians but I don't expect their precious lives to be held as less valuable than a cause...
Please don't think that I am unsympathetic. My son served.
But people keep talking about the enemy, and I recognize that it is difficult because nobody can be sure that just who might be friends and who might be combatants. That does not help the families and dependents of those who are innocent live with the pain or like us any better. It makes more enemies, justifiable the next time around.
We chose to go over there, and I do mean chose this time, we have a volunteer military now.
We need to stop dehumanizing the "enemies" that we generate, and stop what anyone can surely understand looks like genecide to those living near it.
I don't even want to touch the argument of whether it is or not. It would seem, though, that people could understand that it looks like it. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 45 | |
| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/31/2008 7:51:16 AM | As it so happens....this Marine was ACQUITTED! Justly so. The article even stated that the jurors actually hugged the defendant after they acquitted him of the murder charges. Our civilian courts are NOT the place to hold military members accountable for war crimes. The jurors in this case even stated the same.
Civilians do not have the expertise to judge our military members on crimes within our military. This was a dumb move by the liberals judges and it failed miserably obviously. This trial had no business in the first place being held in a civilian courtroom and thank God the jurors had the common sense to know this hence why they acquitted the defendant.
I do not understand why this was even allowed to occur, it was remarkably stupid as well as outright ignorance displayed by our supposed "justice system". Our civilian courts do NOT have the right to question the decisions of our military members or second guess our Department of Defense. Do we really want our military members to be afraid of shooting the enemy due to possible repercussions from our civilian courts? I do not think so. I do believe the liberals would much prefer our military members to try singing "Kumbaya" to the enemy as compared to shooting them. Our military must be allowed to do their jobs. Military tribunals is where military members should face justice upon any possible crimes committed against our UCMJ or the Geneva Convention, not a bunch of people sitting in civilian court who have no clue about the military much less war. | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/31/2008 1:27:41 PM | This is actually to Stella Blue. Did you hear about the policeman who caught a rapist? Did you hear about a policeman who saved someones life by pulling them out of a fire because they were the first one on the scene? Did you hear about the policeman who delivered a baby because the woman did not make it to the hospital on time? Did you hear about the policeman who risks his life every day to protect ungrateful people like yourself? Did you hear about the swat team that rescued hostages from a gunman?
Of course you didn't, you were looking at all the sensationalized stuff the news shows.
I don't know what is like in Oregon, but where have you been the last 20yrs? Drugs, gangs, and violent crime are all on the rise. Why dont you volunteer at you local police department to see what they deal with. We have citizens police academy's here to give the public a better idea what goes on and why they do things the way they do.
As for the marine accused of a crime,you found him to be a murderer before he was put on trial. Just another armchair quarterback spouting off when you have no idea what you are talking about. And yes, I was in the military also. Go ARMY!!!!! | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 8/31/2008 3:20:52 PM | My son was in Iraq 4 yrs ago and he is going back to Iraq in October. The saying in his Division (and many others over there) is
"I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"..
If anyone needs that explained let me know, but i think you get the point. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 48 | |
| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 9/1/2008 7:33:03 AM | | ^^^ Yes , that is also a popular saying amongst Iraqi men, Afghan men, etc. | |
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| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 9/1/2008 7:46:17 AM |
The article even stated that the jurors actually hugged the defendant after they acquitted him of the murder charges.
Not all of them hugged the defendant.
[Do we really want our military members to be afraid of shooting the enemy due to possible repercussions from our civilian courts? I do not think so. I do believe the liberals would much prefer our military members to try singing "Kumbaya" to the enemy as compared to shooting them.
No...not true...you're stereotyping everyone with a broad brush.
God bless the U.S. troops. But they are not above the law...no one is. If that Marine killed an unarmed soldier without cause, he did not serve our country honorably that day, and the same goes for anyone else who saw it happen and didn't speak up. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 50 | |
| Marine Facing Justice
Posted: 9/1/2008 8:25:35 AM |
Not all of them hugged the defendant.
What matters is that enough of them did to show not only their gratitude for what he is doing or has done for our country that it made the paper...that was my point.
My apologies about stereotyping all liberals,but do notice how all the threads on this site which sympathizes with terrorists as well as anti-american threads is written by guess who? Primarily liberals. It's sickening.
Yes...God Bless Our Troops. You are absolutely correct about no one being above the law and I do believe if military members perform outright murder of an unarmed person PERIOD, they need to be brought to justice but justice in the appropriate setting which is a military court of justice.
When civilians get thrown into these matters, the justice system takes the risk of under punishing or over punishing service members due to ignorance of military law, civilian courts should not be taking these risks. Most civilians are not willing to take that responsibility of aiding in prosecuting military people, as has been witnessed from this particular case. | |
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