|
|
|
|
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/6/2008 9:20:58 PM | I am a relative neophyte in respect to Buddhism and I dont claim to be enlightened or advanced, so it surprises me when people talk about the futility of this path. I find there is a lot of value in your everyday life, even as a neophyte.
And not because it is a dont worry, be happy philosophy at all. That would imply suppressing our emotions. Ignore it and it will go away. I have discussed this with colleagues who seem to believe that is what Buddhism is. The fact is, I believe people do worry and are unhappy because they do not understand the nature of reality or truth. There is no need to suppress our feelings when we understand and accept things as they truly are. The moment we begin to deceive ourselves, is when we become depressed or ill. Acceptance, gentleness and the ability to be non judgemental are huge benefits one can draw from Buddhism, even when they are new to the path. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/7/2008 6:36:54 AM | ^^just realized, reading your last sentence again- in many ways, actually, 'don't worry, be happy' is suggesting non-attachment, isn't it? it's really not that different than your words and could be interpreted to mean, "...Acceptance, gentleness and the ability to be non-judgemental'....
also, I did not get the impression anyone here is really saying the buddhist path is futile....i think everyone is sharing what they understand of it, their impressions of it....and ya gotta admit - even people who have done buddhist practice for years still have a hard time expressing what it really is because with some things, as we know, words are not necessary or adequate. my impression here is those who have just heard of it perhaps a little in their travels are simply not knowing what to think of it.
basically, you really can't 'get' buddhism or any spiritual illumination or awareness without experiencing it directly (imo).
and stone - it is nice to see you back.....we have had many conversations in my previous incarnation here. i so appreciate your going through this thread and finding the gems and reminding us of them. :)
i would really like if this thread could now look more at applying buddhism or buddhist principles and practices in relationships.... specifically romantic ones, or potential for romance anyway :) .....if anyone has anything they could share where they have applied anything from buddhism in their relationships and it has been a great blessing and healing and help...please share if you wish or can. also, warn if you have found some things actually seem to be more unhelpful than helpful. thanks! | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/7/2008 7:31:10 AM | Thanks WeAre1... Nice to see you too!
in many ways, actually, 'don't worry, be happy' is suggesting non-attachment, isn't it? it's really not that different than your words and could be interpreted to mean, "...Acceptance, gentleness and the ability to be non-judgemental'....
My instinct is to say no, but I'm not attached to the idea so I guess I agree.
i would really like if this thread could now look more at applying buddhism or buddhist principles and practices in relationships.... specifically romantic ones, or potential for romance anyway
I'd like to recommend "True Love-- A Practise for Awakening the Heart" by Thich Nhat Hanh. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/7/2008 9:14:02 AM | 'don't worry, be happy' is suggesting non-attachment, isn't it? it's really not that different than your words "
I would not think so. To me, that implies ignoring things whereas accepting them, implies a level of understanding. If it was a philosophy of don't worry, be happy, you could do so without an underlying realistic viewpoint on life. I speak with people who bury their feelings regularly. Believe me, it is not the path to joy. Whereas acceptance is.
"I did not get the impression anyone here is really saying the buddhist path is futile"
What I was saying, was people who talked about the difficulty involved in this path, and how many years of practice and study it takes. It made me think, this is so difficult, why bother? I may never get to this level of enlightenment and if I don't, I will have wasted all of this time. That is the sentiment I sruggle with. Apart from the fact that it implies superiority which is counter to Buddhism, it overlooks benefits which appear quickly and can have a fairly large impact on one's life. As I mentioned earlier,.
The hard part for me, is justifying my thoughts. Does that mean I am attached to outcome and massaging my ego, or am I searching for truth? It is a dilemma and one which I will have to come to terms with. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/7/2008 11:12:28 AM |
>>> basically, you really can't 'get' buddhism or any spiritual illumination or awareness without experiencing it directly (imo). <<<
There are many paths to levels of spiritual illumination. People often find levels of spiritual illumination, in a number of different ways. Suffering or martyring have led many people to levels of spiritual illumination, and they don't have to begin the process with religious devotion in mind. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/7/2008 8:58:15 PM | ^^i agree....i was simply saying experiencing it is what it's all about (to me) - however you experience it (and i purposefully did not say how one experiences it) - rather than reading about it or talking about it....it was in reference to those on this thread that responded with ideas that maybe had not experienced it, that's all....so talking about it becomes extra challenging.....
i think it's clearer sometimes to keep single sentences within the context of where they are placed in a whole post, rather than pull them out and analyze individually. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/8/2008 9:10:22 AM |
But perhaps even Buddhism has many various beliefs within it's own construct. Perhaps it is no more immune to dogma and literalism than any other major religion?
It's not immune, at all. Anything can be corrupted and institutionalized. Which is why it's essential to constantly question and test things out for yourself---that's the difference between philosophy and religion.
I remember another thread where I was extolling the concepts of Buddhism as I understood it, and how I found it really inspirational. Then a Christian poster came along and asked me why did the Dalai Lama slam homosexual unions then?
I thought, hmmmph, another Christian threatened by a different spiritual thought, but followed the link provided anyway....
My heart was broken when I saw him dismiss homosexual unions with a scowl and a dismissive wave of his hand. Yup, just another guy who is human after all, I thought. And I'm still not diggin' his answer; after all, is he not supposed to be the enlightened leader of a whole bunch of people? If we are all just spirit in the greater reality, why would someone's preference of partner make one whit of difference if *Love* is being expressed in another form of creativity?
I guess I expected a more tolerant view from a spiritual leader.
So, for me, Buddhism is there with Christianity now. The essence is very beautiful to my heart, but any religion/spiritual thought that does not grant absolute equality for everyone is not my cup of tea.
And while I'm looking to be slammed here, I might as well address the feeling I'm getting from certain posters that only years of study in a monastery gives one the right to explain the full benefits of Buddhism. Gotta disagree with this and to me, this smacks of ego driven oneupmanship, which I thought was the very antithesis of the whole thing in the first place. I may be wrong though.....
Gotta meet me a Buddhist man I think.
Cheers, Raven | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/8/2008 9:47:01 AM |
Then a Christian poster came along and asked me why did the Dalai Lama slam homosexual unions then?...... My heart was broken when I saw him dismiss homosexual unions with a scowl and a dismissive wave of his hand.
I have read a fair bit on this supposed viewpoint of the Dalai Lama's, and although I have not read that specific link, I do know that there are many that have taken the Dalai Lama's words out of context. Please remember that Buddhism teaches "non-attachment" to anyone or anything.... which includes marriage, whether they be gay, lesbian or straight. One of the key priniciples in Buddhism is that all people and events in life are designed to teach us.... and marrying someone is basically marrying the lesson. Yes, we often learn many lessons from one person, but the Buddhist thought is that by "marrying the lesson" we then stall the learning process, and thus defeat one of the main purposes of living on this plane. I am not saying I agree or disagree, merely repeating what I found out when researching this exact viewpoint.... I have many gay and lesbian friends, and I found it hard to believe that such a tolerant belief system would have such a non-tolerant leader. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/8/2008 9:52:57 AM | hey girl!
I do not remember the thread title, but the link was the interview he gave to CBC, in it's entirety.
His actions and answers were definitive, and left no room for doubt or context, I'm afraid. I'll try to find the hotlink and send it to you.
Cheers, Raven | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/8/2008 12:00:21 PM | Hi Raveninns ~
My heart was broken when I saw him dismiss homosexual unions with a scowl and a dismissive wave of his hand. Yup, just another guy who is human after all, I thought. And I'm still not diggin' his answer; after all, is he not supposed to be the enlightened leader of a whole bunch of people? If we are all just spirit in the greater reality, why would someone's preference of partner make one whit of difference if *Love* is being expressed in another form of creativity?
I guess I expected a more tolerant view from a spiritual leader.
The Dalai Lama, while respected and esteemed by many Buddhists practicing other traditions, is recognized as the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism only. There are a number of other sects of Buddhism.... Theravadan Buddhism is much more inclusive re homosexuality.
.... I might as well address the feeling I'm getting from certain posters that only years of study in a monastery gives one the right to explain the full benefits of Buddhism. Gotta disagree with this and to me, this smacks of ego driven oneupmanship, which I thought was the very antithesis of the whole thing in the first place. I may be wrong though.....
The posts of which you speak are troubling to me as well and for the very reasons that you have stated....
Probably the majority of long-time posters here know that I am a practicing Buddhist regardless of the fact that I have never found it necessary to broadcast what tradition I follow, the length of time I have practiced and whether or not I have spent any time in a monastery. My profile states that I am Buddhist and I don't feel the necessity to divulge this information in every thread I post in.... I would never presume to suggest that my path OR experiences give me carte blanche to point out which posters are closer to "getting it" as it were....
When I reread those posts, I cannot help but think "Hmm ~ Why so attached ?" | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/8/2008 12:13:13 PM | | i'm not sure, raven, if you were including me, but if so...i was just trying to express how hard i find it is to talk about the experience of spiritual things sometimes...that words seem really inadequate, that's all. i believe all have wonders to share and are teachers, as i feel all are students also. we learn from each other and no one is any more a better person than any other. i believe this strongly. i also struggle with my ego. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/9/2008 6:07:55 AM | 
I love your posts, WeAre1. Thank you.
On topic: While I am not what one would call a "true Buddhist" I am very familiar with Buddhism, and still practice it in many ways.... I have chosen a path that is a mix of Buddhism, Wicca and Native.
One thing I find particularly difficult in my search for a life partner is that I tend to be very open and gentle when meeting people, and try hard to have no expectations of the other person. Many men perceive that as "non-interest" when in truth, it is more of letting things happen if they are supposed to.... along the lines of "when the time is right, the pieces will fall into place."
There are also many who perceive this openess and gentleness for "doormat-itis" and think I am naive and will do whatever they wish..... and get very upset when they find out how wrong they were.
It is not easy being a spiritual person and trying to find a partner in this world.
BB | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/9/2008 10:44:29 AM | Keysguy, as Rainsands has aptly pointed out, you have posted your comments regarding enlightenment on the wrong thread.. if you wish to discuss it further, perhaps you could copy and paste it over there?
As to this topic.. this may be a sufi poem, but I think it fits rather well:
The minute I heard my first love story
I started looking for you, not knowing
how blind that was.
Lovers don't finally meet somewhere.
They're in each other all along.
-Rumi
| |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/9/2008 5:13:09 PM | posted by sassyaquarius
The minute I heard my first love story
I started looking for you, not knowing
how blind that was.
Lovers don't finally meet somewhere.
They're in each other all along.
-Rumi
A beautiful poem. Thanks. I believe it does capture the nature of the subject at hand perfectly. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/9/2008 6:24:30 PM |
2. On his deathbed, he told his followers to never make a statue of him. Number 1 is said a few different ways throughout the teachings but could you show me where you found number 2?
Stephen Batchelor mentioned it during a retreat I attended about a year ago, most of his work is drawn from the Pali canon so I'm assuming that's where he got it. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/9/2008 6:59:49 PM |
I remember another thread where I was extolling the concepts of Buddhism as I understood it, and how I found it really inspirational. Then a Christian poster came along and asked me why did the Dalai Lama slam homosexual unions then?
I thought, hmmmph, another Christian threatened by a different spiritual thought, but followed the link provided anyway....
My heart was broken when I saw him dismiss homosexual unions with a scowl and a dismissive wave of his hand. Yup, just another guy who is human after all, I thought. And I'm still not diggin' his answer; after all, is he not supposed to be the enlightened leader of a whole bunch of people? If we are all just spirit in the greater reality, why would someone's preference of partner make one whit of difference if *Love* is being expressed in another form of creativity?
I guess I expected a more tolerant view from a spiritual leader.
So, for me, Buddhism is there with Christianity now. The essence is very beautiful to my heart, but any religion/spiritual thought that does not grant absolute equality for everyone is not my cup of tea.
The Dalai Lama is no different than the Pope: a human being just like you and me, but who has been elevated to an impossibly lofty position by a religious institution. Don't be so impressed by titles and robes and media hype. "Spiritual leaders" are no less fallible than "spiritual institutions" (the latter being a huge oxymoron). Just like everything else, both are nothing more than social-historical CONSTRUCTS, compounded and conditioned phenomena: they may be helpful to some people, but ultimately there is nothing absolute or holy about them at all. Look past the pedestals.
The Dalai Lama does NOT represent Buddhism as a whole, because there is no such thing as a single monolithic form of Buddhism but rather---just like in any other major religion---there is a plethora of different sects each with their own idiosyncrasies. The DL does come from a particularly traditionalist school within Tibetan Buddhism, and in the BBC interview that I saw of him, he did preface his views on homosexuality and non-procreative sex (views basically identical to orthodox Catholicism) as coming from HIS tradition. So just as there are Christians who have no problems with gay clergy and gay marriage, there are plenty of Buddhists who do *not* share the DL's views on such issues, particularly in the West.
And while I'm looking to be slammed here, I might as well address the feeling I'm getting from certain posters that only years of study in a monastery gives one the right to explain the full benefits of Buddhism. Gotta disagree with this and to me, this smacks of ego driven oneupmanship, which I thought was the very antithesis of the whole thing in the first place. I may be wrong though.....
No, you're not wrong at all. Monasteries and meditation centers don't necessarily contain any less suffering than the "real world." And "enlightenment" is never guaranteed, just like nothing is ever guaranteed. All we can do is be clear with ourselves about our intentions, and set out on that journey. Doesn't mean we'll ever arrive at the destination. It's the journeying that matters, really.
The main redeeming feature of most meditation centers and monasteries is that they are wonderful places to go have meditation retreats at...and the indescribably intense and often transformative experience of doing such retreats will take you much, much further down the path than any spiritual leader or doctrine.
Gotta meet me a Buddhist man I think.
Heh, don't set yourself up for disappointment. Lots of people call themselves "Buddhists" or "Christians" or "Muslims," etc. but can be just as far off those paths as anyone else. Don't get too hung up on labels. See with your eyes, feel with your own heart, find your own way. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/10/2008 10:24:04 AM | Hi Raven;
I know we've had this conversation before, but the Dalai Lama doesn't really condone any sexual activity based solely on pleasure. Not all Buddhism is like that but he was saying what made sense to him.
I find truth in the four noble truths, the five precepts and the eightfold path. Nowhere in there does it say anything about sexual preference. It just says to refrain from sexual misconduct.
Edsta;
Number 1 is said a few different ways throughout the teachings but could you show me where you found number 2? Stephen Batchelor mentioned it during a retreat I attended about a year ago, most of his work is drawn from the Pali canon so I'm assuming that's where he got it.
I've read much of the Pali cannon but there is much skepticism on how much is actually attributed to the Buddha. It seems like a trivial matter he wouldn't have concerned himself with to me. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/10/2008 7:30:36 PM | Is a person who drinks alcohol truly a buddhist? They may call themselves one but that is another form of deluding oneself. Is a person who eats meat occasionally a vegetarian? In the same way, a person who breaks a tenet of buddhism and decides to break this rule over and over, can he be described as a buddhist?
I may be wrong about this and if so, please correct me, but I believe that if a person only chooses to obey certain rules, that would eventually lead to the dilluting of the faith. I don't know that the Dalai Lama was really critical of homosexuals somuch as describing what a buddhist is.
This is in no way meant to inflame or insult anyone. I may be wrong about it, and I have no axe to grind. I am just trying to look at this from all possible sides. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/10/2008 7:56:38 PM |
I've read much of the Pali cannon but there is much skepticism on how much is actually attributed to the Buddha. It seems like a trivial matter he wouldn't have concerned himself with to me.
Well to be honest, we have no 100% sure way of knowing what ANY of these teachers really did or said: Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, etc. All we have are a bunch of stories and fragments of stories and translations of stories/fragments with which various religious institutions each filter, picking and choosing whatever they find beneficial to their own specific interests and prejudices.
Batchelor to his credit is very upfront about this, he freely admits to having his own agenda, which is to piece together a secular application of Buddhism that is intended to be as accessible and relevant to the contemporary layperson as possible, rather than some ivory-tower academic or mystical mumbo jumbo that basically preaches to the converted, the monastics and specialists. (His landmark book "Buddhism Without Beliefs" is invaluable, IMO.)
Personally, I tend to believe that any teacher who tells you not to take his teachings on faith but to rely on your own direct experience by test-driving them first (as the Buddha did, by most accounts), probably would not be keen on being turned into a religious icon after his death. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/10/2008 8:13:09 PM |
Is a person who drinks alcohol truly a buddhist? They may call themselves one but that is another form of deluding oneself. Is a person who eats meat occasionally a vegetarian? In the same way, a person who breaks a tenet of buddhism and decides to break this rule over and over, can he be described as a buddhist?
It is unhelpful to get so hung up with being a "buddhist" or not being one, or whether someone else is or not. "Buddhist" is just a word, a concept, a mental construct like anything else---don't fixate on the finger pointing at the moon, keep your eyes upon the moon itself.
The "moon" is the essential spirit of the teachings, which our minds can only partially perceive, and which language can only partially describe. The essential spirit, as I see it, is the Middle Way which is what distinguished the Buddha's teaching from that of his contemporaries---he did not advocate ascetism, nor did he advocate materialism. His teaching was about staying centered, not getting carried off by one extreme or the other.
One stays centered by trying to stay unattached. So, in the case of alcohol and meat and sexuality, what it comes down to is, do you have a healthy relationship with such things, or are you consumed and ruled by them, i.e. do you have an ADDICTIVE relationship with them? For example, a person who occasionally drinks a glass or two of wine with meals is in a very different place than the alcoholic who drinks secretly and heavily and cannot sleep or function without having booze constantly in his system. Obviously, if you are prone to developing an addictive relationship to alcohol, it would be wise to stay away from the stuff. Ditto with sex, or meat. In this respect Buddhism is not different from Aristotlean philosophy: it's grounded in pragmatism, balance and moderation, rather than absolutism or idealism. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/10/2008 10:50:06 PM |
Personally, I tend to believe that any teacher who tells you not to take his teachings on faith but to rely on your own direct experience by test-driving them first (as the Buddha did, by most accounts), probably would not be keen on being turned into a religious icon after his death.
Why is that? He had no problem making himself an icon during his life. He wanted his teachings past down.
We can only agree to disagree on this one. Just seems a non-issue to me. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/10/2008 11:23:37 PM | Is a person who drinks alcohol truly a buddhist? They may call themselves one but that is another form of deluding oneself. Is a person who eats meat occasionally a vegetarian? In the same way, a person who breaks a tenet of buddhism and decides to break this rule over and over, can he be described as a buddhist?
I think so... I've heard it compared to holding a glass without getting any fingerprints on it... Very hard.
I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from ...
...harming living beings.
...taking things not freely given.
...sexual misconduct.
...false speech.
...intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness.
(adapted from The Word of the Buddha, Niyamatolika, The Buddhist Publication Society, 1971, p xii)
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/precepts.html
Personally, I still have alot to overcome before number 1 and 5 can be reconciled within. In Buddhism, humans, animals, plants and minerals are all living beings but we have to eat something. Number 5 I can almost be ok with... I am never at the point of being unaware or out of control due to alcohol or weed. Mind you I hardly do either anymore these days.
I may be wrong about this and if so, please correct me, but I believe that if a person only chooses to obey certain rules, that would eventually lead to the dilluting of the faith.
Faith? The Buddha didn't want anyone to take his words on faith. He wanted us to look at what he said and take what made sense to us and discard the rest.
If it wasn't for the dillution of dogma and faith, there would be no Buddhism for the Buddha would have stayed a Hindu and ironically enough, would never have been considered an enlightened one by the Hindu faith. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/11/2008 7:56:14 PM |
Why is that? He had no problem making himself an icon during his life. He wanted his teachings past down.
No, I think we disagree on semantics. By "icon" I probably should have said, "idol." The Buddha's teaching was very much "against the stream" (his own description) of not only the predominant tendencies of human conditioning, but within his own specific social-historical context, it was very subversive to the social-religious order of his time...he made a good number of enemies among the predominant Hindu religious establishment with his exhortation to cast aside received wisdom and ritualism in favor of direct experience/inquiry. It is fair to conjecture that he would not have wanted to be turned into a mythical figure or institutional idol in turn, which is sadly exactly what happened within several hundred years after his death among large swaths of his successors. | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/11/2008 9:13:06 PM | I do see what you're saying... While I've never seen anything that says he would or wouldn't want folks having statues of him, I appreciate that he wouldn't want to be worshipped as an idol.
He actually made enemies in the world of Zen (Chan) when he first arrived on the scene in China too. He had a new way of looking at it all and some promenant teachers there called him a "Rousing, toothless Hindu speaking nonsense" but regardless, he influenced many and Zen Buddhism was born.
And I admit I may have possibly been defensive because I have a Buddha statue and I dig my little Bottisatva figures, but I don't worship them as idols. Just things that remind me of my connection with the Way and make me feel closer to everything. (Does that make sense?)
I agree that there should be no dogma in Buddhism, but that of course is only my opinion. Many of the dogmatic forms are still very beautiful, even while taking away from what we percieved from the teachings (while using our inner B.S. detector or inner Buddha to decide what makes sense to us.) | |
|
| Buddhism and Relationships
Posted: 9/13/2008 6:18:42 PM | *- Posters are advised, as always, to follow the rules of this site. Flame posts removed. Address the topic, not other posters. Use [.quote] and [/.quote] without the periods to surround the text you wish to quote and it will be set off from surrounding text. Tone down the preaching too, please. -TheMadFiddler-* | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
