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Dryad
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Joined: 7/19/2005
Msg: 226 | |
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/26/2005 11:01:56 PM | | Even Darwin didn't know about genes. What we know changes as we learn, explore and experiment. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/26/2005 11:03:26 PM | | And if he did does it support the theory in anyway how did Genes come to be? from nothing now? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/26/2005 11:09:49 PM |
God created the world we see and the heavens and stars, Earth is the centre of the universe. from God's eye too. Think about this one for a bit.
The thing is that this is your opinion Dei Gratia. I'm not saying it is invalid, everyone is entiteled to thier own opinion. However I do not see things in the same way as I do not belive in god or the truth of the bible. I have my own religion and so see things difrently to you.
Actualy thats not entirely true, I do belive that the eath is the centre of the universe, because its all relative, from where I am everything is outside the centre. You are several thosand miles away from the centre of the univeres in my perspective! :-p | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/26/2005 11:18:10 PM | A bunch of Darwinian scientists decided they didn't need God anymore.They decided thay would tell God they didn't need Him.
They came up to God and said "God we don't need you anymore.We can clone things and do many miraculous things through science so we no longer need you.You are no longer needed so you can just go away".
God listened very patiently to the scientists and when they were done He said "very well then,let's have a man making contest".
The Darwinian scientists agreed.
But God said "There's only one rule though.You have to create a human as I did".
The darwinian scientists said "ok" and one of them bent over and grabbed some dirt.
God said " no,no, get your own dirt". | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/26/2005 11:21:01 PM | You speak of dimensions of time humm but which can you define?
There are seven levels of this actually what I always thought but apparently there are eleven for us and the twelfth well is it I wonder?
Psalm 19:1 emphatically states: ‘The heavens declare the glory of God; and the expanse proclaims His handiwork’. When we look at the awesome wonder of the stars set in space, including those we are only just now finding out about via powerful telescopes, we should be reminded of the Awesome One who created them (Romans 1:20). | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/27/2005 12:04:25 AM | It all comes back to the time when "life" began. How? What? Why? Then what happened?
How can you prove this again?
How can you even prove that this the first time it happened?
How can anything on this level be proven?
It just goes into an answer that everyone pull's out of their butt.
Is there an answer? Admit it!!! We have no clue, we haven't found an answer, yet. But we just try to simplify things to meet our own level of "evolution".
Who is right? I don't know.
I want some answers!
I don't know, do you? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/27/2005 12:08:08 AM | Of course there are answers just seek knock and be heard the answers will come to you.
When is something only God can revel for it is all for his purpose but I will say this for sure He will answer your questions.
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/27/2005 12:35:56 AM | ISorry Dryad- The only way that "evolution" needs to be seperated from the origin of life is that nobody knows. Nobody has answered that one yet. Theories? Sure. Answers? Nope.
Everyone who believes in evolution is in their own world, just like "creationists" but nobody has proof how anything came to exist or existed. But that is the easy way out for the evolutionist's and creationists, you just don't know. But each side "thinks" that you know. But either side can't prove shit.
So really what it comes down to is people from both sides taking a leap of faith. On one side we have a God building the blocks of life and it must be so, or on the other we have life evolving from random chance because it must be so.
You all just argue about what you "think" is right. And here in lies the problem. How did "evolution" start?
How could you get to evolution without figuring out the start of life?
Wouldn't that be the one part that would prove "evolution"?
This is the question we are all dancing around. How did it happen?
I have no idea. Do you? It all comes back to the time when "life" began. How? What? Why? Then what happened?
How can anyone prove their side of it? Now that you think you have, are you absolutely sure that you are right?
How can anything on this level be proven? It never has yet to be proven one way or the other.
It just goes into an answer that everyone pull's out of their butt. Nobody an answer this. We try and we are not right. Nobody is, yet.
Is there an answer? Admit it!!! We have no clue, we haven't found an answer, yet. But we just try to simplify things to meet our own level of "evolution".
Who is right? I don't know.
The only relevent question is how did it all start?
I want some answers!
I don't know, do you? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/27/2005 12:23:28 PM | "Is evolution the same thing as 'survival of the fittest'?"
No. Evolution is the change in gene frequencies in a population over time. There are several known mechanisms by which this occurs. The first is natural selection, a.k.a. survival of the fittest. Organisms with a better chance of survival tend to live longer and have more opportunities to mate and pass on their genes. Some others are mutation, sexual selection, and genetic drift.
"But because they are no longer here does that mean that they 'evolved' or just simply ceased to exist because it was a bad mutation that couldn't stand the test of time?"
Either way a species went extinct (for any number of factors). Sometimes they go extinct because they evolved into a different species.
"Why is it that when evolutionists are stating their 'facts' that they say that evolution and the creation of life are two different subjects?"
Notice how evolution is defined above. There was no such thing as evolution before genes existed. I don't know that life requires genes. I suppose it's possible that genes existed before life and that life arose after a certain combination of genes arose. I guess it depends on what you mean by life.
"Within the 'science' of evolution is plausibility accepted as being equivalent to evidence?"
I don't know why you put science in quotes above. Evolution is a science. It makes testable predictions about what we can and cannot observe in nature. So far not a single prediction has been shown to be false and many predictions have been later observed to be true. This is quite contrary to Creationism which makes no testable predictions (since any observation can be explained by claiming God did it for reasons we cannot understand).
We must make a distinction between evidence and proof. We can prove evolution occurs today. We have observed it (recall how it's defined above). Even Creationists accept that evolution occurs, but they call this microevolution in hopes that people will think that it's somehow not real evolution. When we make a claim that humans have a common ancestor with chimps then we're making a claim that has no proof (and never will unless we discover time travel). Similarly I can't prove that WWII happened. But we can gather evidence in its favor. If we're related we'd expect similar genes, body structure, fossils becoming more similar as we look further back in the fossil record, and the lack of human and chimp fossils earlier than their alleged common ancestor lived. For example if we found a chimp fossil that could be dated to 1 billion years ago the entire theory of evolution would collapse. When we take a look at all the evidence we have at our disposal the only theory so far proposed that agrees with it all is evolution. The evidence for common descent is thousands of times stronger than the evidence that Jeffrey Dahmer was a serial killer. So why are there any doubters left? Perhaps the same reason why there are still flat earthers around. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/27/2005 12:29:21 PM | | Well who looks more like they're going to be right. Scientists have been able to create amino acids, peptides, and even RNA. So while we haven't created life we seem to be making progress. The Creationists aren't even out of the starting gate. They claim that God created everything from nothing. No experiment has ever violated the Law of Conservation of Energy/Matter. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 2:21:52 PM |
So really what it comes down to is people from both sides taking a leap of faith.
BAM! Someone dropped the F-bomb! Faith, in this case. And atheists claim to not have it. Everyone has to have faith in something, because it all comes down to things that can't be proven. Bravo, evanism!
I'm not anti-evolution, but I am pro-intelligent design. The beginning of life violates the law of entropy-- that things go from order to disorder. Where did the order come from in the first place?
The God I serve doesn't live by physical laws; He makes them.
At least creationists can admit that there are things we will never fully understand. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 8:48:21 PM |
I'm not anti-evolution, but I am pro-intelligent design.
Who designed the Designer? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 8:57:41 PM | Ok,CountIbli,
Sit down and draw up a set of blue-plans for your future home.Then ask who really did this?The designer has no designer.What kind of question is that.That is and ignorant question is what that is.A designer doesn't go to someone else for a design,then who would really be the designer? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 9:07:17 PM | Count, I saw that one comin'! I didn't go into it because I fear if I make the posts too long people won't read them. So here goes:
5 year olds ask, "Where'd God come fwom?"
Atheists ask, "So, where does your god come from?"
A good question, but one with no answer. Religious people just assure themselves that if God didn't always exist, He wouldn't be God. As Christ said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega." The beginning and the end. Plus, it all falls under my sentence saying that we can admit that we will never fully understand everything with our relatively puny brains. If we could, then WE would be gods.
BTW I've been enjoying your posts, CountIbli. Very well read and intriguing. I may have to message you personally sometime to get your story of your journey from Christian to atheist. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 11:23:21 PM | | Jimmy, you've stumbled upon the problem, I hope. The ID argument is that design is evidence of a designer. Now look at God. Does God act randomly? No. Is God simple or something so complex we can never understand? If God is non-random and complicated surely He had to have been designed. He's too perfect not to have been designed. If you can accept the existence of a non-designed being that is infinitely complex then you have just defeated the ID argument, because you're admitting that design is not evidence of a designer. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 11:28:40 PM | | Flyguy, the notion of a non-eternal god is interesting. In Greek mythology the gods themselves were descended from the Titans. In Norse mythology the gods could die (and most of them would at the Gotterdammerung). In the story of Prometheus, he knew the name of the being who would overthrow Zeus. Zeus used that information to destroy that being before he was a threat. This all suggests that the gods have their rise and fall. Could there be an infinite regression of gods designing gods? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 11:42:18 PM | Count,
I laugh at you argument.How am I denying a designer.If I designed a house and I know I did it,how are you gonna tell me that I didn't.An all powerful all knowing being does not need and references.If you believed that someone created Him.Then someone created him,and someone created him,and somne created him,and some created him,and someone created him,and someone created hime,and someone created hime,and someone created him,and someone created him.I could go on forever but someone does not create a creator.Sorry, hate to bust your bubble.O,wait there we go.If you blow a bubble you couldn't have been the one to blow the bublle.Someone else had to do it.Considering,by your beliefs,that nothing has a beginning and nothing has a end.Everything just keeps going and going.So, if you blow a bubbble in all actuality,someone else had to do it.Since the creator cannot be the creator.
God bless and take care,
Jimmy | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/30/2005 12:01:31 AM |
Is God simple or something so complex we can never understand? If God is non-random and complicated surely He had to have been designed.
OK, I didn't see that one coming. You're getting into a Buddhist system of neverending (with no clear origin) causes and effects here. But, I believe the "so complex we can never understand" part cancels out the designer behind the designer question.
The last time I had these questions was when I was about 5 or so years old asking my mother (who's very sharp and well read). God is self-existent, self-sufficient, and eternal. Just because I can't wrap my brain around it doesn't mean it ain't so. I can't fathom infinity either, and I guess that's why we make a nice little loopy symbol to make it easier to visualize.
I'd rather put my faith in God's existence than coincidence, randomness, and billions and billions of years (said with Carl Sagan inflection).
Is this really one of the issues that caused you to stop believing, CountIbli? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/30/2005 12:47:40 PM | OK wait a minute here. Seems creation and evolution both have the same problem. When/how did it start? With evolution everyone questions the origins of that first cell, Randon chance or design. But then with creation where did the creator come from? He created himself out of randon chance?
What are the odds on that? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/30/2005 6:12:12 PM |
With evolution everyone questions the origins of that first cell, Randon chance or design. But then with creation where did the creator come from?
I don't question evelotion, if you truly understand the chemical interations of evelutionary biology, then you will understand that life came into being through pure chance, we are nothing more than a colection of chemicals in little bags of water. For more details on how life came into being see my earlier posts. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/31/2005 12:46:57 AM | | Jimmy, you can laugh but that just means you're not seeing the ID theory through to its logical conclusion. The ID theory defeats itself. It requires us to posit an undesigned designer. But if we posit an undesigned desinger then we've admitted that the whole reason for positing a designer is unnecessary. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/31/2005 1:04:45 AM | Flyguy, after I stopped believing my mind was open to logic. While I was a believer I had to tell myself that God transcended logic. But that's just a fancy way of saying the god concept is illogical.
I abandoned Christianity largely because I realized that the Bible is hopelessly contradictory. I don't expect anyone to believe that it is. I know what it's like not wanting to admit this. I would come up with all sorts of ways of twisting what the Bible says in order to resolve contradictions. One day the lightbulb went on over my head and I saw that I would have to choose between being a Christian and being intellectually honest with myself.
I still held on the theism for a while, but eventually I realized I didn't need it. I saw, and still see, absolutely no reason to posit a Grand Architect of the Universe. With each new discovery in science we push god further and further back into our gaps in knowledge. We no longer blame hurricanes, earthquakes, disease, etc. on God's Wrath. At least I don't. All the so called proofs of god's existence inevitibly contradict themselves.
If believing that you can go to Hell after you die gives you some comfort, then go ahead and believe it. If you want to believe in talking snakes, demonic possession, and a god who sent his innocent son to be brutally murdered even though it was totally unneccessary, then go ahead and believe. I only ask that you not get the government to actively support those beliefs. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/31/2005 6:35:27 AM |
I only ask that you not get the government to actively support those beliefs.
I second that emotion! | |
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| This is now dead theory folks BIG difference from Truth......
Posted: 8/31/2005 10:51:41 AM | Howard Hughes Medical Institute
A new view of human-chimpanzee genome differences
Comparisons of the human genome and the newly completed draft of the chimpanzee genome have unearthed major differences between the patterns of large duplicated segments of DNA in the two species. These segmental duplications -- which straddle large stretches of DNA -- appear to have had a significant impact in altering the genomic landscape of apes and humans. The popular understanding of the genetic differences between chimpanzees and humans should be recast in light of the findings of major differences in segmental duplications.
Next....
Howard Hughes Medical Institute
Human Y chromosome preserves itself better than the chimp Y
By using human and chimpanzee Y chromosomes as a genetic fossil record to examine our past, Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) scientists have seen a surprising difference in the way the male-making chromosomes from the two species cope with the inexorable pressures of evolution.
One more.....
Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory
Flipped, expelled, copied, and shrunk
The September 2005 issue of Genome Research presents a series of studies that provide insight into the evolution and variation of primate genomes. The issue will appear online and in print on September 1, concomitant with the publication of the chimpanzee genome sequence in the journal Nature.
Good bye theory.......
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