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 Author Thread: Creation vs Evolution [read OP before posting]*
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 2651
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 1:59:17 PM
In all seriousness, I think that if any aspect of theology be taught in a science class, Spinoza's God would be the least innapropriate.

Although this probably wouldn't be enough to assuage the creationists' agenda, after all, it would expose the many misattributions many creationists make to Einstein "believing" in "their" idea of "God".


As I'd mentioned before, some non-religious individuals even dare say Jesus Christ never existed, as a very short sighted attempt to discredit the Bible; But even Jewish and Roman Historical unbiased texts from that time period mention Him several times.


Also mentioned in the Koran, does this mean that Christianity validates Islam?
 Feral

Joined: 4/10/2005
Msg: 2652
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History
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 2:26:45 PM

Further though, in respect to my suggestion, Since world religions are taught as basic education, for examinations of beliefs, etc, but not PROMOTING said religions individually, why not then, in 'Biology' classes, where the Theory of evolution is mostly taught, also do comparative studies showing the Biblical Creation account?

Because it's not biology.


I would even *gasp* be open to the idea, since it IS a 'public' school system we are discussing, to have 'other' creation accounts entered into the cirriculum as well, for at the very least, comparative studies.

This could work, as a college elective on creation theology.


While there have been many here who disagree, There IS credible, scientific studies and evidences FOR a 'Creation' account, thereby, allowing it to be studied as same said alternate view of the origins of life, etc.

There's the thing. You've got to convince not us, but the school system that those studies and evidences legitimately support a creation account. As it stands, they don't. All they do is pose questions toward why Biblical literalists should "sink" to the level of accepting the scientific theory of evolution.


Creation, by it's very namesake, implies automatically, a CREATOR; i.e. 'god', supreme being, intelligent design, etc, etc. Hence, religious overtones are perhaps a by-product of said topic, as opposed to the predominant evolution stance, that no 'higher power' is responsible.

Again, I disagree. It's not only observable but blatant fact that the creation "agenda" is not just supported by but actively fueled by politically motivated religious leaders. The overtones are not a "by-product" so much as the end goal, whereas the predominant evolution stance says nothing about responsibility, only that no "higher power" is observed.


But, going back to my History classes example, if it can be done in THOSE classes, why not in the science (i.e. Biology) classes as well?

Two things here. First, history classes, while we'd like it to be otherwise, are not unbiased. The old saw that the winners write the history books is amply demonstrated, and only relatively recently (since the sixties and seventies) have people fought to see that all aspects of cultural and historical interactions were included. Secondly, creation, Biblical or otherwise is not biology, it's miracle. There's no scientific way to falsify or even theorise such things (this is why they are miraculous), therefore, no, they do not belong in science classrooms.

Okay, let's try this. What aspects of creation or ID do you believe to be scientific enough to be included in a science classroom?
 silivros

Joined: 3/19/2005
Msg: 2653
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 6:09:08 PM
"Science without religion is lame
Religion without science is blind"

Al Einstein

 ashley1861

Joined: 11/6/2004
Msg: 2654
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History
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 8:52:17 PM
Ferel: I understand why you would say, "Science tends to believe it has a functional method for answering its questions, but religon tends to believe it has all the answers."

But I must remind you that most who denounce a creator having a hand in our world tends to be someone who thinks they have "all the answers"; convinced and attempting like hell to convince others that God doesn't exist, simply because evolution does exist.
I appears to be a two way street, not one way on the "I'm right, you're wrong" subject.

As for classrooms, I was once in a one time only alternative class called "Humanities" which stumbled on the subject of religion differences. It was shot down by people who couldn't consider sitting in a classroom and listening to the FACT that other's have differing beliefs. It was never taught again.

So, perhaps miraculous as it may seem, this would have to be an alternative course with course agenda spelled out, covering miracles, inclusive of mankind. With speakers; not open debate. Hand written reports anyone? You get an A for Attending.
 wonkavision

Joined: 9/9/2003
Msg: 2655
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Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:00:32 PM
"But I must remind you that most who denounce a creator having a hand in our world tends to be someone who thinks they have "all the answers"; convinced and attempting like hell to convince others that God doesn't exist, simply because evolution does exist."

Please show me in these 108 pages who has said this.
 Feral

Joined: 4/10/2005
Msg: 2656
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Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:07:33 PM

But I must remind you that most who denounce a creator having a hand in our world tends to be someone who thinks they have "all the answers"; convinced and attempting like hell to convince others that God doesn't exist, simply because evolution does exist.

Need I remind you that the only folks saying that "evolutionists" claim this are the proponents of ID? I know God exists, I'm not claiming otherwise. The fact is that what I posted before is exactly what I meant: science focuses on a method to investigate and obtain answers to questions. Religion doesn't.


As for classrooms, I was once in a one time only alternative class called "Humanities" which stumbled on the subject of religion differences. It was shot down by people who couldn't consider sitting in a classroom and listening to the FACT that other's have differing beliefs. It was never taught again.

And? Sure, it sucks to get the short end of a stick by missing out on education because somebody dropped the ball and couldn't take it when there were other viewpoints present. What does that have to do with the debate about Creation/Evolution? What is the direct parallel or analogy to an attempt to get religion taught as science?
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 2657
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:09:40 PM


Please show me in these 108 pages who has said this.


What the strawman giveth, the strawman taketh away...


I was once in a one time only alternative class called "Humanities" which stumbled on the subject of religion differences. It was shot down by people who couldn't consider sitting in a classroom and listening to the FACT that other's have differing beliefs.


What did these beliefs differ from?
 ashley1861

Joined: 11/6/2004
Msg: 2658
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History
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:17:37 PM
Evening boys:
Late - the portion of this class that attempted to show the various different religious beliefs, how they differed, (IE: some do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, but a prophet and super good guy only) etc... was when a few people walked out and it was announced a day or two later that the course would not reappear the next semester.
People put up brick walls and as part of the discussion of religious folk thinking they have all the answers - well there ya go. Some, only some, do.

That fence can be straddled both ways: Some of the non-religious persuasion think they have the only true answers too; denouncing all other beliefs as false.
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 2659
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:32:27 PM
Some of the non-religious persuasion think they have the only true answers too; denouncing all other beliefs as false.


.....Another strawman

You are asking to have science in the terms of religion, science already has terms, they are in a different frame of reference.

This is like saying, .....okay, you can make coffee, but only if you respect the rules for lacrosse

 wonkavision

Joined: 9/9/2003
Msg: 2660
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Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:33:50 PM
"Some of the non-religious persuasion think they have the only true answers too; denouncing all other beliefs as false."

I can't speak for every non-religious person, but this is exactly contrary to the arguments that I have made, and, neither have I seen anyone in this thread, religious or otherwise, take that position. There's a world of difference between the position that one bases truth upon the comparison of theories under the method of repeatable testing and rational deduction and finds one to be more explanatory, and bullet proof to falsification than the other, and the position of denouncing all other beliefs as false. Those are two very very different positions.
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 2661
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:41:33 PM
No one here is calling anybody's religious beliefs false, .....some of us are just pointing out that they have nothing to do with science.

Creationism is a "unified" hodge-podge of pseudo-science, ..... it's analog doesn't exist in science, not yet.

So, ....any academic subject that deals with science should include religious content?

Physics, Biology, Chemistry ??

Academia doesn't lump these together as does creationism, no one wants to "ban" creationism from being taught, some of us DO feel however, that it should be taught within the terms of reference that it itself exists in.

Theology........

Not

Physics, Biology, Chemistry, et al.....

Wanting religious belief included in science because a course teaching religion isn't appropriate to teaching what is a religious belief......? Creationism.

This makes sense, how?
 ashley1861

Joined: 11/6/2004
Msg: 2662
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Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:46:38 PM
Late: See I think science is the result of the God given gift of intelligence. Seems the big guy upstairs likes to watch us work for the truths of life.
He's the teacher who doesn't give all the answers.
Science and Religion are two different things. And I believe that Religion doesn't have a place in a Science classroom; but in a Sociological style of classroom.
True, scientists are bent on proving therories. Religious beliefs are based on faith and the desire to trust. I just happen to mix my theories, findings, etc with my belief. I believe we will one day learn all the truths, and some of us will have the chalk in hand.

Wonka: I am taking my issue from something Ferel said about the religious believing they "have all the answers". I don't think that is a true statement anymore than I would believe that all scientists think alike.
 wonkavision

Joined: 9/9/2003
Msg: 2663
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Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:54:17 PM
"I am taking my issue from something Ferel said about the religious believing they "have all the answers""

I'm not going to speak for Feral, but I'll just say that I inferred a different meaning from his words than you did. I took it to mean that, as a matter of faith, religion treats truth as an absolute. It's either right or it's wrong, and evidence is irrelevant, where as science is quite different, treating truth as comparative. That's how I took his meaning.
 ashley1861

Joined: 11/6/2004
Msg: 2664
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Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 9:56:56 PM
Late you are so funny: "When teaching electronics, should prayer be a valid avenue of trouble-shooting and repairing a short circuit?"
I've heard many a man working with electricity ask God to damn it
(the electricity, not the burned finger, I presume).
Could be valid to teach proper praise when the electricity job works, and proper distain when it doesn't.

Wonka: I dont know... we do seem to think we have nothing to prove to anyone else when it comes to our beliefs / our faith in things unknown. It's like trusting that love exists just because you get a goofy feeling about someone. I believe.... but I can't scientifically prove or disprove love. My heart speaks the truth, my truth, my belief.
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 2665
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 10:03:05 PM
Hmmm.... there is a way to test which has more "truth": ..... a persons faith in God, or fear of electrocution based on physics.

Take a 5000V 400mf electrolytic capacitor and apply current to it,

.....do you see where I'm going with this?

The two don't mix well.
 ashley1861

Joined: 11/6/2004
Msg: 2666
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Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 10:04:51 PM
You first!

I'm not afraid of death, as I know where I am going (faith), but that doesn't seem to be the response you would want.
 wonkavision

Joined: 9/9/2003
Msg: 2667
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Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 10:19:37 PM
Ashley- I'm not really sure what the point is you're making. Not needing to prove what you believe is not really relevant to the demarcation between absolute and comparative truth, but I'm not sure if you were implying it was, or just making a tangential point. I have never really found the analogy to love very meaningful, because love is a pretty vague concept. Love has subtly different meanings to different people, depending on the interpersonal experiences they have had in their lives, and, even to the same person throughout his or her life, it takes on different shades of meaning. Also, most of us have had the experience of feeling that we have met our "soul mate" and only a few short years later find ourselves thinking "what the hell was I thinking?" Love is just not a concrete "thing" so much as it is a vague concept, where as the prevailing concept of god is as a concrete consciousness, not necessarily material, but certainly essential.
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 2668
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 10:32:33 PM

to be the response you would want.


It was more of an aphorism, the point being......

Faith in god will not stop the cap from discharging a lethal shock if shorted by even the most faithful follower.

Physics on the other hand, .....doesn't preclude that a believer not have faith, science doesn't seek to meddle where it's terms are meaningless.

On the other hand, hooked up to a couple of paddles, capacitors like this bring people back from the dead every day.

Like I always say, ....mixing science and religion is like, dancing about architecture.... sure, it can be done, but it really doesn't do either any good, ....does it?
 wonkavision

Joined: 9/9/2003
Msg: 2669
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Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/1/2005 10:40:16 PM
"Like I always say, ....mixing science and religion is like, dancing about architecture.... sure, it can be done, but it really doesn't do either any good, ....does it?"

I think a quote from "King of The Hill" applies. Hank is refering to Christian rock. Just substitute religion and science for Christianity and rock.


Can't you see you're not making Christianity better, you're just making rock and roll worse.

Hank Hill
 Canadian Romantic

Joined: 5/10/2005
Msg: 2670
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/2/2005 6:35:07 AM
'late' replied:


No, fortunately the work, in terms of scrutiny of these sites, is all ready well represented. talkorigins is one of many sites that exists to expose pseudo-science, the work has already been done in terms of critical thinking.

There is no "Unified Quantum Physics/ Biology/ Archeology/ Et Al" disipline of science taught in schools, if there was such an ill-concieved pursuit, then I suppose there would be a "Science of Creation".

No such unified course of study exists. In terms of "science", creationism is a "pseudo-science", as such I have no problem with it being included in a course of an academic study. One already exists, it is called Theology.


While I appreciate your OPINIONS in reply, by your own admissions, YOU have not thoroughly researched 'the other side' as it were, of the Creationist Viewpoints. Your automatic labelling of 'Creationism' as "pseudo-science" is clearly indicative of a misinformed, preconceived and biased mindset on the subject.

Your flawed logic is akin to saying: "I watched very carefully 'Ebert and Roper' to gain valuable insight on their critical analysis of a movie I heard of; Neither one of THEM liked it, therefore, I need not even to bother watching said movie." (Neither did you, for example, check out OTHER 'movie critics' for THEIR take on said hypothetic movie either.)

There is no way possible for YOU to determine then first hand, what the whole, complete movie means for YOU, by simply relying solely on a critique on another's observations.

Much the same with the Creationists viewpoints; While there are the aforementioned opposing viewpoints, with dubious counter evidences at best, they do for the most part, take even moreso the same attack they accuse 'Creationists' of: Attempt to simply discredit, by mostly misinformation, speculation and conjecture, rather than actually examine fully the opposing factual evidences at hand.

On the subject of your "Unified" classes rebuttal, Perhaps I should have expanded in type what my thoughts were, but I was assuming that for the most part, I was dealing with at least a few educated individuals would would perhaps grasp the entire scope of my suggestions.

I am not sure about the Junior High and High School education systems in the the USA, but here in Canada for the most part, one is taught 'science' classes in Junior High, usually a 3 year tenure, which are usually all encompassing subject matters; i.e. Physics, Biology, Chemistry, etc.
Then when one reaches High School, one still has to elect for a 'science' class for at least 2 of the 3 year (or 4, depends which Board system has determined) tenure. Then one has to select a specific science in which to devote studies to; again, usually 3 choices: Physics, Biology or Chemistry. Or, as the grade level progresses, one can even be able to include all 3 sciences within their tenure. Even within EACH of those individual sciences, evolution is taught in varying degrees; Therefore, also within each of those studies, the 'Creation' Model could be applied, as it relates naturally to each specific science.

Your broad generalisations to simply cast off 'creation' into a theology class are really not well informed or well researched.

And I have to agree with Ashley, there ARE many on here who seem to have the brick wall on auto-pilot, in that any mention of a supreme being being involved in mankind, brings an immediate scoffing attitude FIRST, then a very weak, fallable attempt at discrediting said Creationist Viewpoints.

But, wonka, I take a bow on your accolades of my historical perspectives.


And of course, after all, Monty Python has shown some 'interesting' takes on certain historical periods. *wink*wink*

wonka also mentions:


I have never really found the analogy to love very meaningful, because love is a pretty vague concept. Love has subtly different meanings to different people, depending on the interpersonal experiences they have had in their lives, and, even to the same person throughout his or her life, it takes on different shades of meaning. Also, most of us have had the experience of feeling that we have met our "soul mate" and only a few short years later find ourselves thinking "what the hell was I thinking?" Love is just not a concrete "thing" so much as it is a vague concept, where as the prevailing concept of god is as a concrete consciousness, not necessarily material, but certainly essential.


Actually, the Ancient Greeks had SEVEN different words, for different meanings and perspectives of the word "Love"...


On the other hand, hooked up to a couple of paddles, capacitors like this bring people back from the dead every day.


"Been there, done that..."



Like I always say, ....mixing science and religion is like, dancing about architecture.... sure, it can be done, but it really doesn't do either any good, ....does it?


While I can appreciate your OPINION with the analogy, it really is still an "unimformed" opinion at best, as you have fully admitted above to NOT fully examining the Creation Viewpoint.

I am one, that like many others, is very comfortable with the fact that science AND religion CAN co-exist quite easily, as Einstein also pointed out, as was quoted earlier. *AHEM*



 ashley1861

Joined: 11/6/2004
Msg: 2671
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History
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/2/2005 7:18:24 AM
Creation VS Evolution?
Two issues, yet they walk hand in hand. Evolution was Created but not by Mankind.
It was Discovered by Mankind...
Science, archeology, etc.. are areas where we continuously discover new insights.
As mankind continues to evolve, we learn and grow.
We trust that a scientist has his equation correct and we accept it.
We see the bones dug up by the archeologist and accept it.
We are learning now that there are more stars & moons in the space we can see, that we've been looking at forever...
We always think we've learned the final truths of the world when we dig up another ancestor who looks a bit different. Then low and behold, there was another, who looked different yet. Lucy is old news.

Acceptance of things seen and things unseen is a parallel concept here.

Science, evolution, finding new information - These are gifts from God. Merry Christmas.

God has a plan and gliding down here on a chariot for our inspection and interrogation isn't one of them.
Issues partaining directly to God from a faith standpoint are individual, personal. The thoughts, beliefs and events can be shared, but each has to "accept" their validity and understand it's significance on their own terms.
Like love.
I have had a wonderful experience when communicating with God but I can't reproduce it for someone else... we each have to have our own experience and to get there is a search of the heart more so than a research of the great book or any other. A different method than scientific discovery.

God created science as a tool for mankind's growth. So I don't believe science and the study of God belong in the same classroom.
But they both belong in school.

Accept that there are things we don't know and when we think we do know it all, think again.
Use a #2 pencil with an erasor.
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 2672
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/2/2005 7:30:29 AM
Your automatic labelling of 'Creationism' as "pseudo-science"


Nope, I let the definitions of what science is do that.

Here is a good place for you to peruse:

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-index.html


"I watched very carefully 'Ebert and Roper' to gain valuable insight on their critical analysis of a movie I heard of; Neither one of THEM liked it, therefore, I need not even to bother watching said movie."


Actually, a better analogy would be that I don't use movie critics as a source for weather forcasts.

The flaw in logic is already present, see link (below), ID proponents freely admit to making the priority of what they base their findings on: the logical fallacy of "petitio principii",

......unless you know of one of these organizations that doesn't demand that their members agree to a "statement of faith".

BTW, I am familiar with the writings of the major players in the ID/Christianity agenda game, and also those who debunk them, see page 1.

Also in reference to "Answers in Genesis" and their claims being "science" based:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/about/faith.asp

I'm game, do you have a science based cite that supports ID ?


Your broad generalisations to simply cast off 'creation' into a theology class are really not well informed or well researched.


They are not broad generalisations, they are reasons specific to terms of reference, well informed and and amply researched.

Let's start with:

Creationism

n : the literal belief in the account of creation given in the Book of Genesis

Science

n 1: The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Theology

n 1: the rational and systematic study of religion and its influences and of the nature of religious truth

- The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

Please refer now to the "statement of faith" link, if you want more, pick your favorite ID website, if you find one that doesn't base their claims on a "statement of faith" over science, let us know.

Einstein also pointed out


....You sure you wanna' go there?
 Canadian Romantic

Joined: 5/10/2005
Msg: 2673
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/2/2005 8:59:03 AM
Here is a good place for you to peruse:


"Been there, Read that"...

As in, what I have read mostly, is not so much scientific rebuttals, but more accurately: snide, snearing contemptuous remarks and comments by anti-creationists against those who support the Creation Account. At best, they use misinformation, semantics and speculative conjectures and pre-disposed, self admitted personal bias for their also self admitted attacks on the Creationists supporters, more for personal attacks and feeble attempts at discrediting the persons themselves.
At worse, they use lies, misinformation and outright libel for their attempts at discreditation.



Actually, a better analogy would be that I don't use movie critics as a source for weather forcasts.


My original analogy was quite accurate, Thank You. Your new one here is more akin to having a person evaluate evolution, based on why the original 6 team NHL League is now expanded to it's present size, and various other 'wannabe leagues' have sprung up as well.



Also in reference to "Answers in Genesis" and their claims being "science" based


As noted below, They in no way exclude science from their beliefs; just because YOU may not like it, that they proclaim a Christian Faith 'first', in no way takes away from their scientific facts and evidences shown.


1. The scientific aspects of creation are important, but are secondary in importance to the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as Sovereign, Creator, Redeemer and Judge.

2. The doctrines of Creator and Creation cannot ultimately be divorced from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


And also, I am so happy for you, that you can refer to a dictionary to look up meanings of words, But, I fail to see what point you are trying to make. The definitions quoted do NOT exclude one topic from the other.

But, let's look CLOSER at what YOU have shown to be found.

First definition: Creationism, which follows if you look CLOSELY at what the definition of Science is: (Your quote)


n 1: The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.


THINK about that, word for word...especially the last word, 'phenomena', which to many, creation in and of itself was a (miraculous) phenomena!

And finally, The definition for Theology, note the words 'rational', and 'truth' in there...

So in summary, and In actuality, the REAL search for 'Truth' should emcompass ALL avenues, not to exclude certain beliefs and/or fields of study, just because they do not conform to your self admitted personal bias on the subject matter.

Credible Creationists fully admit to have a belief system in place right up front (HONESTY)
And then use SCIENCE to further PROVE said belief system.

Evolutionists for the most part, claim no 'personal bias', but any rational person has to admit, that in fact, there ARE very real, strong personal bias's at work with the Evolutionists claims; For as mentioned, by very definition, 'Creation' automatically implies a 'Creator', while most evolutionists admit to the presumption of NO 'creator' at work, therby still attempting, yes with 'science', to bolster their personal bias as well;
That being: Evolution = No 'supreme being' at work.
Having said all that, bottom line is, while evolutionists Claim a neutrality of sorts, the facts are that they are NOT (DECEIT)
 wonkavision

Joined: 9/9/2003
Msg: 2674
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History
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/2/2005 9:35:24 AM
"So in summary, and In actuality, the REAL search for 'Truth' should emcompass ALL avenues..."

I don't disagree with this in principle. The point is that there are different methodologies for finding truth. Science does not, by definition, include ALL avenues. Philosophy doesn't either, but it has much more latitude than what science, by necessity, allows. One could cast bones to determine the "truth," but it's not science. If you weaken the methodology, the efficacy will suffer.

"Credible Creationists fully admit to have a belief system in place right up front (HONESTY)
And then use SCIENCE to further PROVE said belief system."

Science also fully admits this. The difference is that science admits that it sometimes, unwittingly (and this is the important distinction,) operates under implicit assumptions. The objective of science is to recognize those assumptions and either factor them out, or prove that they are sound. Religion assumes, a priori, that it's assumptions are sound.

"while most evolutionists admit to the presumption of NO 'creator' at work,"

CR- I know, since this has been pointed out many times, that you understand. Clearly, you're not an imbecile, so I have to wonder why you keep saying it. Evolution and science in general does not ring in one way or the other on this issue. It is disingenuous for you to continue saying that evolution rests on the premise that there is no god. It's just irrelevant to the study of the mechanism of evolution. Like I said before, you can study the internal combustion engine without addressing who invented it.

"Actually, the Ancient Greeks had SEVEN different words, for different meanings and perspectives of the word "Love"..."

Only seven?

"the logical fallacy of "petitio principii""

Petitio principii is the worst of all fallacies, because there are no fallacies that are worse. Sorry, I had to.
 Canadian Romantic

Joined: 5/10/2005
Msg: 2675
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 12/2/2005 10:16:18 AM
Hiya wonka...

The regard for the 'god not in evolution' topic, was also to refer to the long said phrase, that Creation infers a Creator; It is a hand in hand examination that can not be seperated one from the other.
Even say the supporters of ID, still have some kind of supreme intelligence at work, even if to them, is perhaps somehat undefined.
I am NOT attempting to belittle say, the cause for scientific studies even for evolution, but am having to make reference to the facts that most evolutionists exclude said supreme being from their equation all together.

This is often times the problem with mere typed words in this exchange of ideas; we never get to hear the nuances of what one would say vocally, nor do we get to see sometimes the tongue in cheek renditions of some thoughts shared either. *WINK*

also you said:


I don't disagree with this in principle. The point is that there are different methodologies for finding truth. Science does not, by definition, include ALL avenues. Philosophy doesn't either, but it has much more latitude than what science, by necessity, allows


True enough, but take that a few steps further, and realise that even 'science' sometimes can not 'explain' EVERYTHING that surrounds us...seen or UNseen.

Give you an example, "FAITH"-wise, I am of the belief that the Biblical account of a 6 day creation period is the Truth, for ME.

BUT, and This will no doubt rile some hard core right wing Christians, I am ALSO 'open' to the "POSSIBILITY", that the much pondered school of thought, which is alluded to scripturally, that "A day in the Lord is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a day..." Thereby, the six 'days' of Creation, could 'literally' be six thousand years.

ALSO, when one then takes an even smaller school of thought bantering around, that states that when re-examining said scriptual quote, a play on words could have it to mean 1000 times 1000, which of course equals 1,000,000 (One Million)
Hence, a 'day' equals one million years.

The bottom line thought for me, is that while I believe it to be a 24 hour day, the possibility in my open-mindedness exists for the chance it 'may', 'perhaps', 'possibly' someday be found to be even a day equals a thousand or even said one million years.
But, this of course is still way much less time than the BILLIONS of SPECULATED years conjectured by some evolutionists.

In summary, my Faith still has me adhering to the belief that 'God' (Jehovah) "CREATED" it all...
Sometimes though, as mentioned, God in the Bible, has used terms, definitions, etc, to make it easier to understand for the times it was written in.
Even Jesus used Parables in teaching the masses;
Does this mean He lied to get His message across? Of course not.

Or, as I like to sometimes refer to, there is a scripture that refers to we mere mortals seeing everything through 'a glass darkly' at present here on Earth, but when we reach the proverbial Pearly Gates, it will then be fully, in it's entirety, be revealed to us all.

Methinks when we all get there and gather to chat with one another, there will be ALOT of ones exclaiming, as Homer Simpson does when his inner lightbulb glows: "DOH!"
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