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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 12:33:25 PM | Tsur, as stated several times several pages back, I corrected myself on a couple of points was all. Your continued barrage of lies are still indicative of a childhish infantile mindset, and are nothing more then baiting and flaming tactics.
"Grow up and get a Life"
And the term "UFOlogist" has broad meanings. As I have also stated in rebuttal before, even the major governments of the world have studied in depth the phenomena; Are you saying THEY are 'deniers' too?
Speaking of constant misquotes, and sticking to them even when faced with FACTS, you are certainly this years poster boy for that.
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 12:57:52 PM | Canadian...
Still waiting on the creationist evidence....I am starting to think it will never come. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 1:19:57 PM | Brain, Here are 10 sites to start with:
www.answersingenesis.org
www.icr.org
www.creationscience.com
www.christiananswers.net/creation/home.html
www.creationresearch.org
www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia
www.sentex.net/~tcc
www.sixdaycreation.com
www.biblicalcreation.org.uk
www.creationcare.org/
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 1:38:35 PM | I will deal with one site at a time until I address them all...the first, well this is interesting. It discusses proof of Noah's flood covering the whole earth:
Noah’s Flood covered the whole earth Many Christians today think the Flood of Noah’s time was only a local flood, confined to somewhere around Mesopotamia. This idea comes not from Scripture, but from the notion of ‘billions of years’ of Earth history.
But look at the problems this concept involves:
If the Flood was local, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and missed it.
If the Flood was local, why did God send the animals to the Ark so they would escape death? There would have been other animals to reproduce that kind if these particular ones had died.
If the Flood was local, why was the Ark big enough to hold all kinds of land vertebrate animals that have ever existed? If only Mesopotamian animals were aboard, the Ark could have been much smaller.1
If the Flood was local, why would birds have been sent on board? These could simply have winged across to a nearby mountain range.
If the Flood was local, how could the waters rise to 15 cubits (8 meters) above the mountains (Genesis 7:20)? Water seeks its own level. It couldn’t rise to cover the local mountains while leaving the rest of the world untouched.2
If the Flood was local, people who did not happen to be living in the vicinity would not be affected by it. They would have escaped God’s judgment on sin.3 If this happened, what did Christ mean when He likened the coming judgment of all men to the judgment of ‘all’ men (Matthew 24:37–39) in the days of Noah? A partial judgment in Noah’s day means a partial judgment to come.
If the Flood was local, God would have repeatedly broken His promise never to send such a flood again.
Belief in a world-wide Flood, as Scripture clearly indicates, has the backing of common sense, science and Christ Himself.
WHOA... Like Wonka, and others have noted...this sort of Creationist proof assumes that the bible is 100% accurate, and makes its arguments from there.
There is nothing scientific about such an argument...it is fallacious.
Even better is this quote, taken directly from the Creationist Scientist link on the webpage.
This should be a lesson for those today who teach that Christians should compromise the plain meaning of the Bible to fit with ‘science’. Aside from placing fallible human opinion as an authority above the infallible Word of God, it just doesn’t work and paves the way for more departure from Scripture.
Again, it assumes that the bible is a fact, and goes from there. That is not evidence, that is a claim based on faith.
In fact I read many of the profiles of the scientists who believe in creationism, and they all had the same ideology..."once I accept the bible as fact, then everything became clear." That is not a scientific argument, that is faith.
Every theory, or argument I encountered on that website begins with the assumption that the bible is factual, the word of god, and cannot be wrong. That is some interesting proof. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 1:42:38 PM |
This still doesn't answer why books put out in the last 5-10 years still contain supposed evidence for evolution that was thrown out over a century ago. It makes Wells problem small and insignificant in comparison to what Evolutionists are doing in the educational system ith their lies and deception.
Which books exactly? I just read the entire article and the only one of those falacies that British Curiculum Text books are guilty of, erm none of these actualy. None of the lies and the species reasoning represented in the article aply, and the two facts about mistakes were corected at the time, one of them over 40 years ago.
I do not know what american text books are like, nor do I particularly care to be honest. British text books teach Evolution and have been entirely arcurate in thier representation of data for the last 30 years. In the last 30 years, no one has been ablt to find fault with the factual content of British text books, and I belive that this situatuation will continue.
I wonder if this is the reason that there is no issue with Creation in Britain, there are no acredited British scientists that acceptcreation as even a plausability! | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 4:55:12 PM |
I wonder if this is the reason that there is no issue with Creation in Britain, there are no acredited British scientists that accept creation as even a plausability!
But I'm SURE I saw a quote from a British scientist, Colin Patterson, on a Creationist website, attacking evolution!!!!!
--R. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 7:35:44 PM | And the next website...
www.icr.org
This is the sites opening page...
We believe God has raised up ICR to spearhead Biblical Christianity's defense against the godless and compromising dogma of evolutionary humanism. Only by showing the scientific bankruptcy of evolution, while exalting Christ and the Bible, will Christians be successful in “the pulling down of strongholds; casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ” (II Corinthians 10:4,5).
Wait, here it is, the creationist argument in a nut shell...Wonka, Tsur, Bright, your going to love this...
Chickens are amazingly complex creatures, with their hollow bones, intricate feathers, four-chambered heart, continuous air intake, high metabolism, complex brain, good hearing, superb color vision, etc. Everything about a chicken suggests careful design. — John Morris, Ph.D. | (4611 views)
Oh, also it is interesting to note that apparantly there were also sea dragons..
The Scriptures indicate very clearly that sea dragons were part of the original creation and are mentioned as being alive and flourishing even after the time of Noah's flood. For instance, in Psalm 74:13 we read, "Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters."
And my personal favorite...the truth about dinasours...
What an opportune time to use the wealth of materials now available to teach children the TRUTH about dinosaurs. Dinosaurs did NOT live millions of years ago; they DID live beside people; they DID go on Noah's Ark; they ARE mentioned in the Bible; they DID live after the Flood (Job 40:15-24). There is MUCH evidence that they have lived up until quite recently. God CREATED all animal types. Dinosaurs did NOT evolve, and there is really NO mystery about what happened to them.
In chapter 19 of the Charig book, A New Look at the Dinosaurs, the author discusses what may have happened to the dinosaurs. He lists many of the dozens and dozens of theories people have come up with. For example: They may have eaten too much and died of overeating; the meat eating dinosaurs ate all the plant-eaters and then themselves died of hunger; gradual warming of the earth led to premature cataracts in the eyes of the dinosaurs—they became blind and perished before they were old enough to reproduce.
That is quite the scientific theory that dinasours died of cataracts because it got warm outside.
So I think we can all agree and call 'bullshit' on this one. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 8:44:08 PM | Colin Paterson is so often Quoted as being a Creationist when he is not. He states often that he knows of no one thing that is true of Evolution, but he dose not refute it. He is just arguing for a revision of evolutionary thery that will provide cast iron proof. Of course any scientist knows that it is often imposible to prove certain things, for example, it is not actualy posible to prove 100% that the Earth rgoes round the Sun, it could be argued that the Sun goes round the Earth and the planets all circle in more complex paths. Of course it seems ludicrus, but the point is, that you can not prove it 100% just like you can not prove Evolution 100%.
Paterson talks in great detail about evolutionary theory and dose not discredit it in doing so. He counters all of the specious arguments used to attack Evolutionary theory. It is his firm stance on the non-existance of direct proof that puts him in the firing line and makes him favoured by Creationists, who seem to ignore the fact that he argues FOR evolution (ieven if its not the current model) and often discredits Creationst theories.
As evidence of this, I cite: Patterson C, Evolution (1978), Routledge.
In several animal and plant groups, enough fossils are known to bridge the wide gaps between existing types. In mammals, for example, the gap between horses, asses and zebras (genus Equus) and their closest living relatives, the rhinoceroses and tapirs, is filled by an extensive series of fossils extending back sixty-million years to a small animal, Hyracotherium, which can only be distinguished from the rhinoceros-tapir group by one or two horse-like details of the skull. There are many other examples of fossil 'missing links', such as Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird which links birds with dinosaurs (Fig. 45), and Ichthyostega, the late Devonian amphibian which links land vertebrates and the extinct choanate (having internal nostrils) fishes. . ." .
This hardly sounds like a Creationist view to me. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 8:50:19 PM | Next thing you'll try and claim that Creationist websites contain inaccurate quotes!
Sinner! We shall send the Baby-Eating Bishop of Bath and Wells after you!
--R. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 9:02:19 PM | Well when it comes to Colin Patterson, they often contain acurate quotes... they just do not contain acurate COMPLETE quotes! LMAO
And don't wory, I have no fear of the Bishop of Bathandwells, I have some preliminary scetches he would be very intrested in! :-p But I never expected the Spanish Inquasition! | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 10:04:59 PM | Did someone say "the Spanish Inquisition"?!
As Wonka has tried so often to point out, the theory of evolution does not disprove a deity. Quotes such as this:
We believe God has raised up ICR to spearhead Biblical Christianity's defense against the godless and compromising dogma of evolutionary humanism. from www.icr.org fail to acknowledge that fact. Christianity and evolution are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I think that people who believe evolution is diametrically opposed to Christian faith are putting their faith on the chopping block of science at their own risk.
"...it is not actualy posible to prove 100% that the Earth rgoes round the Sun, it could be argued that the Sun goes round the Earth and the planets all circle in more complex paths. Of course it seems ludicrus, but the point is, that you can not prove it 100% just like you can not prove Evolution 100%."
^^^ Funny you should mention this, Bright. I was just thinking a while back that, depending upon your frame of reference, one could argue for all kinds of strange celestial orbits. As for not proving 100%, you can bet that many (if not most) Creationists will hold onto that tiny percentage of doubt with every fiber of their being. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 10:38:41 PM | Well there are too many examples of posts that put down groups of people to list them so I'm just going to restate my opinion which is that I don't see how you can put down a group of people rather than their arguement and still maintain that you're being scientific or logical.
to those waiting for proof of creationism or I.D., I don't think it's coming anytime soon. Seems to me that evolutionist dismiss creationism and I.D. without testing it and supporters of those theories advocate for them without testing them either. I have already stated my opinion that I.D. can be tested and stated what I think is a logical way to test it.
Wonkavision writes It should read "it argues against and only against creation and transformation of life having happened by a random process and/or a process that does not involve an intelligence.""
You just said basically the same thing. You are misapplying the term "random." Also, you are stating in this sentence that I.D., by necessity, invokes an intelligent designer as core to the theory, which is odd since you only just stated...
"To the argument that the theory of I.D. requires a creator I have already stated my argument against that and have not seen anything posted that convinces me that my argument is in error."
Make up your mind. If I.D. only asserts, as you say, that it opposes Evolution because it does not require a creator, then, by simple logic, I.D., requires a creator. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the previous statement of the sentence about what I.D. argues against "a process that does not involve an intelligence" was in brackets() next to the rest of the sentence. From what I understand of sentence structure this seemed to make the senctence say that the part of the sentence about the process that does not involve an intelligence was related to "life having happened by random processes" which proceeded it. That those two parts of the sentence are related was not a message I was trying to make and so I changed the sentence accordingly.
How am I misapplying the term random?
It is no more logical to state that a process that involves intelligence must also require an intelligent designer than it is to state that a process that involves nature must also involve an nature creator.
Wonkavision writes "I assumed that you would know I was asking where nature came from(what created it?)."
Where nature came from is wholly irrelevant to the theory. If you think it is relevant THEN YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE THEORY. If you want to believe that God created nature, then fine. That has nothing to do with, and in no way contradicts the theory of Evolution. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you go back and read my statwement that you responded to when you stated that "natural comes from nature" you should see that the argument I was making then and the argument I was trying to explain to you when I asked you where nature came from is that if evolutionist are going to insist that involving intelligence in a process requires involving a source of that intelligence then I.D. supporters should be able to insist that involving nature in a process requires involving a source of where nature came from.
Wonkavision writes When are you guys going to drop this "complete accuracy" fallacy? You are clouding the issue with a straw man. Empirically verifiable is not the same as "absolute truth." Science NEVER claims absolute truth. Rather then repeat myself over and over and over, just go back and read the thread, because this issue has been beaten into the ground. The difference is that I.D. offers nothing that is empirically verifiable, and it offers no theoretical explanations of causal processes. "God did it" is not a scientific theory. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With my statement about niether theory being able to be proven completely I was only trying to say that an inability to completely prove a theory does not necessary invalidate a theory, not to equalize the theories. Sorry if you thought that was irrelevant, I thought it was an important thing to establish. Don't know what you mean by "I.D. offers no theoretical explanations of causal processes." but "God did it" is not the theory of I.D. that I see supporters of I.D. trying to bring into public school sciense class rooms.
Wonkavision writes "If there was an intelligence involved in the creation or transformation of something it is logical that their would be a dicernable pattern throughout that whole thing that can not be explained logicly by looking at only the thing under question."
You know, you don't want to be insulted, but when you prattle on negatively about something you don't understand, then what do you expect? Your knowledge of science is abysmal. That's fine. I don't expect you to understand science, but I do expect you not to rant and rave on a subject with which you don't have adequate familiarity. Again, I wouldn't negatively critique a novel without having read it first, and that is essentially what you are doing. That behaviour DESERVES to be insulted. You completely missed my point, which is that patterns DO emerge from the interaction of basic constituents. Nature is filled with examples of this. You need not go much further than a cursory study of non-linear dynamical systems to understand this. Therefore finding "patterns" in nature is only proof that there are patterns in nature. Evolution does not make the equivalent, but specious, claim that the mere existence of patterns is proof of Evolution. Instead it has uncovered complex mechanisms that explain these patterns. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is not simply whether or not their are patterns that can be found in nature that is the test but also whether those patterns can be explained by only looking at the thing/process that contains those patterns. Well I can't help it I need to do what I have complained about others doing and state that it looks like you did a lot of unecessary ranting and raving after looking at only a part of the method I gave for testing the scientific accuracy of I.D.
Wonkavision writes It occurs to me that for that explanation to work the process of natural selection would have to have the dominent influence over all the other processes involved in the creation and transformation of life in the theory of evolution by natural selection. Do evolutionist contend that this is true?"
Depends on the evolutionary biologist that you talk to. Modern theory incorporates what may be considered structuralist causes in addition to functionalist causes. Also, natural selection occurs on and between different levels, and is not the simple cause and effect that you are picturing. Some traits may be selected on an organismal level, others on a species level, others purely on a genic level. For instance social behaviour is likely selected on a species level, that is the clade with enhanced social behaviour may have a survival advantage over the clade that doesn't possess this trait. It is selected for by competing species within a clade and not by individual organisms. Also, some traits are merely architectural consequences of another mutation. The fact that our blood is red is simply a consequence of other traits that were selected for. It is invisible to evolution, so it remains inconsequential, but it's easy to see how the color of a flower, lets say, could be the consequence of another trait that was selected for, but becomes a functional trait in itself if it is consequently more noticeable to insects that pollinate the flower, so now the flower is selected for it's redness and not the original trait that was selected that the redness hitched a ride with. These are called spandrals or pre-adaptations depending on who you talk to. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frankly I don't see how your expanation shows how the highly complex sturctures of life could have been created by a process that involves random changes if those random changes are not organized in a nonrandom way. Further I don't see how those random forces could be organized in a nonrandom way without an overiding nonrandom force doing that organizing. Therfore I don't see how either I.D. or evolution by natural selection can be a correct theory if an overriding and nonrandom force is not a part of either theory.(please notice I said force not creator) This is why I ask if nature is considered random and is considered to be the overriding force in evolution by natural selection. Call me uniformed and what I say of no value but I don't change my opinion based how negatively someone thinks of it but rather by how well they are able to logically explain what I don't understand about their opposition to my views.
Wonkavision writes "In short the formula is thus. improbability + specification = Intelligent Design." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I see the formula more as A+randomness =highly complex and specific lifeforms perhaps A=nature(theory of evolution by natural selection) if nature + randomness =highly complex and specific lifeforms then evolution by natural selection is the right theory If nature + randomness does not equal highly complex and specific lifeforms then something else must =A. what else could equal A? seems logical to me that nature and intelligence would be a logical answer
Wonkavision writes Again, I wouldn't negatively critique a novel without having read it first, and that is essentially what you are doing. That behaviour DESERVES to be insulted. ------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------- The logical end to what you are saying seems to be that nobody on this thread should be able to question what you say about evolution unless they know as much about it as you do. I doubt there is anybody on this thread who has studied about evolution to the degree that you have. So what it essentially seems to mean is that nobody can question what you say about evolution on this thread. Seems obvious to me that this would defeat the purpose of a discussion thread. If you mean only that anyone wanting to comment on evolution should read a book about it first, I think a board posting where people post comments ounce a week or less often would be a more approbiate forum for that type of discussion.
I also disagree with the idea that there is no useful information to be gained about a subject from someone who does not know about the subject. Perhaps you've had an experience where you gained insight by questioning something that you already knew to be true. I question my professors whenever something they say does not make sense to me even though they hold doctorate degrees in their field of study and I have not had one who responded anywhere near as negatively to the questioning as you do to questions on this thread. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/17/2006 11:33:50 PM | Since the unfounded ad hominem accusations are flying like mosquitos around this thread, I'll do my best to explain what this logical fallacy really is through two hypothetical debates:
Debate #1
Person 1: Seriously, there is such a thing as pink cats.
Person 2: You're an idiot.
Person 1: Ad hominem logical fallacy! (*ding, ding* we have a winner-- logical fallacy: insulting the person instead of refuting the claim)
Note: person 1 may not be very bright, but that is beside the point.
Debate #2
Person 1: Seriously, there is such a thing as pink cats.
Person 2: I don't think so. Show me some evidence.
Person 1: Ok, here's a picture of one...
Person 2: This is a picture of a white cat colored with pink crayon! You're an idiot.
Person 1: Ad hominem logical fallacy! And it wasn't my crayon, anyways! (Argument was addressed and even refuted in this case. The insult, while mean spirited, is not an ad hominem logical fallacy. Counter-rebuttal here is irrelevant, giving further validation of the insult)
So what it essentially seems to mean is that nobody can question what you say about evolution on this thread. Big-eyed owl, I don't see that conclusion. I think Wonka is happy to clear up many things for people. What he is saying he doesn't tolerate is people opposing something they are ignorant about, not asking genuine, open-minded questions.
I also disagree with the idea that there is no useful information to be gained about a subject from someone who does not know about the subject. Other than by coincidence... huh???!!! | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/18/2006 12:32:11 AM | "The logical end to what you are saying seems to be that nobody on this thread should be able to question what you say about evolution unless they know as much about it as you do."
That's not the logical end at all, because you are missing my point entirely. There is a difference between the desire to learn about a subject and employing Socratic debate to that end, and using spurious logical fallacies and misrepresentations in order to attack a theory that you take objection to for reasons that are unrelated to science. Scientific theories are critiqued via scientific methodology. The vast majority of these spurious arguments are farmed from the creationist movement, and the creationist movement, at best, does not operate within the parameters of scientific methodology, and, at worst, employs blatant and intentional misquotes and misrepresentations of the theory. If you truly want to learn about the theory, which is complex and necessitates at least a passing familiarity with various academic disciplines- logic, critical thinking, biology, molecular biology, paleontology, geology, chemistry, non-linear dynamics and chaos theory, then feel free to question what doesn't make sense to you, and someone with familiarity in the sciences will do their best to explain it. That is how you learn, not by letting yourself be hoodwinked by snake oil salesman, and parroting their fallacies. Just ask your own logical questions, and don't shut down your mind when someone explains to you where you are in error.
"I doubt there is anybody on this thread who has studied about evolution to the degree that you have."
This is untrue. There are many on this thread who are quite well studied in Biology and better educated in certain details than I. Again, it is a complex theory. Would you try to disprove the theory of Relativity without some familiarity with it? That's what you are doing in essence. Again, if you truly want to learn, then ask your own questions, and listen when your questions are responded to.
"I also disagree with the idea that there is no useful information to be gained about a subject from someone who does not know about the subject."
Sure, seeing something from a new perspective can be insightful. That is the point of Socratic debate, not spurious logic. I encourage substantive debate. I have no respect for spurious logic.
"which is that I don't see how you can put down a group of people rather than their arguement and still maintain that you're being scientific or logical."
I'm not sure what you are refering to. Who put down a group of people? If you are talking about the comments from various posters regarding the I.D. agenda using lies, misquotes and misrepresentations, that is simply a fact. It has been shown numerous times the type of tactics they resort to, so I don't see the point in being redundant. To anyone who is trained in critical thinking and scientific methodology it is blatantly transparent, in the same way that psychic cold reading techniques are blatantly obvious to magicians who have used them in their acts. Harry Houdini, James Randi, Penn and Teller, all psychic debunkers, all magicians. Why? Because they watch the charlatans and say "hey that's just cold reading. I do it in my act all the time!" Well, to those trained in critical thinking and scientific methodology that's exactly what the creationist propaganda is- blatantly transparent. It is a logical shell game, and, due to unfortunate cultural forces and a poor standard of education in our schools, this shell game has been going on for decades, and it just gets old and, frankly, silly.
"if evolutionist are going to insist that involving intelligence in a process requires involving a source of that intelligence then I.D. supporters should be able to insist that involving nature in a process requires involving a source of where nature came from."
What??? I have no idea what you are trying to say here, sport. Evolution does not "insist that involving intelligence in a process requires involving a source of that intelligence." What does that even mean? Seriously that is an incoherent statement.
"How am I misapplying the term random?"
I have told you more than once how you are misapplying the term. I don't know what to tell you. You're just not getting it. Evolution is not a theory of "randomness."
"It is no more logical to state that a process that involves intelligence must also require an intelligent designer than it is to state that a process that involves nature must also involve an nature creator."
Again, I have no idea what you are trying to say. What process are you refering to that involves intelligence?
"...the method I gave for testing the scientific accuracy of I.D."
You have not given a SCIENTIFIC method of testing I.D. Isn't the whole point that they want to claim scientific legitimacy? If you think you have offered a falsifiable battery of tests for I.D., or empirical verifiability then, again, you don't have enough knowledge of scientific methodology. The problem is that there is a whole wealth of reasoning acuity that one needs to develop and knowledge that one needs to acquire in order to approach these matters on a substantive level. The universe is a complex place, and the study of the universe, whether biology, physics, chemistry or any number of scientific disciplines, is correspondingly complex. The type of arguments you make remind me of the kid in algebra class who complains "what do we need to ever know this for anyway?" Again, if you want to learn, fine, but when you posit arguments that don't relate to the theory, then you must understand the futility of having a discussion with you on the matter. Do you know what a straw man argument is? If I were to say that Christianity is bunk, because it claims that God is a giant warthog, and then I go on to point out why that can't be so, I am arguing against a straw man- Christianity says nothing about God being a giant warthog. That's what many of your arguments are, especially your continual misapplication of "random" to the theory.
"Frankly I don't see how your expanation shows how the highly complex sturctures of life could have been created by a process that involves random changes if those random changes are not organized in a nonrandom way."
They are organized in a non-random way! Genetics is very organized.
Further I don't see how those random forces could be organized in a nonrandom way without an overiding nonrandom force doing that organizing."
That you can't see that says more about your poverty of imagination and abstract reasoning skills than it does about the theory. I can't possibly make you understand the process in a short forum post, which is why I urge you to read a legitimate source on the theory, so you can then ask pertinent and specific questions, and we will answer them as best we can. But saying that you don't understand how the environment shapes genetics is essentially saying that you don't understand the theory. It is a complex theory. You need to ask specific questions, and to do that, you need to at least have a passing knowledge of what the theory is actually all about. Go to the library; it won't cost you a thing.
"I see the formula more as A+randomness =highly complex and specific lifeforms perhaps A=nature(theory of evolution by natural selection) if nature + randomness =highly complex and specific lifeforms then evolution by natural selection is the right theory If nature + randomness does not equal highly complex and specific lifeforms then something else must =A. what else could equal A? seems logical to me that nature and intelligence would be a logical answer"
I'm sorry if you find this insulting, but your attempt at a formula is nonsensical, and has nothing really to do with Evolution. You are reducing multivariate and complicated causal factors to a ridiculously simple and misleading triviality. "A+randomness" IS NOT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/18/2006 1:23:01 AM | Could I please point out once again that Evolution is not Random, nor is it not Designed!
Evolution is a proces that follows natural laws and conforms to set rules of those laws. Thus it is not random, it is guided by natural law.
Evolution also shows design. Natural laws force the evolutionary proces to take certain paths in order to overcome certain obstacles to life. Thus that life shows desighn in that it is keyed specificaly to its ecological niche.
For example, lmarine life must provide itself with a means of propulsion to move through the water eficently. Nature can not produce fully rotaional joints like those found in a ships propeler for example, thus oscilating motion must be used. So all the fish that swim in the sea use an S shaped flex of thier bodies to provide an osilating motion. To make efecient use of this motion requires that they have a flexable rod for support down the centr of the body. And so fish have devoloped a spine. This is desighn that follows the natural laws, it can be shown to be a slow gradual proces from spinless slugs and flatworms, to true bony fish. The end result is creatures like the Bluefin Tuna, which looked at out today shows a high degree of desgin to prode the perfect body for its particular lifestyle, but it still dose not cotravine the laws of nature because if it did, it would have rotary joints to produce motion as they are far more efficent.
Design is not contrary to Evolution, but required by it and Evolution is not Random. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/18/2006 6:05:54 AM | | I won't even try to post on any of the pages I missed these past few days. I read them, but that's all I'm going to say. Raziel, I hate to interject here, but one thing I think might assist in getting your point across is that the wording may be a little off. "Design," as it is defined and used in the majority of the debate (as well as for pragmatic/semantic reasons), might not be the best choice to make your point. I would suggest the term "pattern," as it does not denote any preconceived plan, and, as Wonka has illustrated in the past (the "faces in the clouds" thing), it does show how we humans can see an apparent "design" without there actually being one, at least not in the sense of one having been intended. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/18/2006 10:03:34 AM | Right you are Feral, we find patterns in everything and the intelligence behind those patterns is usually our own (also right about trying to post on all I've had to catch up on). Check out some stuff on fractals and you gain a whole new perspective on chance and patterns.
talk about how many of the evolution textbooks are teaching the children about 100+ year old hoaxes by evolutionists. If that is the case then your school system is fcuked... OK so lets clean up the books. Give your schools more money so they can buy current books.
And as to the questions/debate on "Natural/Nature" that is known as "personification" (giving human qualities to animals or objects). Mother nature is like father time, a mythical human creation to explain things we do not understand.
And again I ask, why is it that life is too complex to have created itself, well the designer/God, who must be even more complex, was able to create himself? Talk about wonky logic.  | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/18/2006 10:56:20 AM |
If that is the case then your school system is fcuked... OK so lets clean up the books. Give your schools more money so they can buy current books.
The books in question were from within the past 10 years. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/18/2006 10:59:35 AM | | It does not matter if your school system is distributing books published from this year; if the school system is using books that are full of errors, or mistakes, that does not speak to the theory of evolution. It clearly speaks to the authors of the books, and to the school system that chooses those particular books. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/18/2006 11:32:07 AM | I couldn't get the pdf to work, so I couldn't read the Wells article. The book, "Icons of Evolution" is on my reading list (500+ titles, so I don't know when I'll get to it), but the NCSE article did come up, and it made a good deal of sense. I don't know if folks have quite gotten the point across, or whether or not everyone's read all the articles (like I said, I know my knowledge has been one-sided on this one), but the NSCE article certainly did seem to address the issues that Wells raised. I'll have to read the book, and if someone sees a way I can read the article without having to use adobe, please let me know.
I'm actually in the middle of "Darwin on Trial" right now, and I found it interesting that Tsur would mention that one (I like coincidences). Has anyone else read it? Any insights? Johnson does seem to make some interesting points, particularly about the logic, while he's very honest about not being quite up to speed on the science. One thing I did notice was that he focuses on "Darwinism" and touches a little on Punctuated Equilibrium and what he calls the "Neo-Darwinian Synthesis." For the most part, though, it seems he's trying to logically debunk the original theory, or at least to insist that it's not much more than a hypothesis. Again, any thoughts? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/18/2006 12:41:24 PM | Feral-
First of all, why aren't you done with that book yet? That book should take a day or two to read. Second, finish that tripe and read a real text on Evolution. The modern synthesis he is refering to dates back to the fifties, so criticizing the modern synthesis is about as topical as criticizing Darwin's original writings. If you can't see the transparency of his arguments then post more of them as you did earlier, and I'll tell you, again, why he's wrong. Or, you could read a scientific text on the issue, so that you can easily spot the errors in his "logic" yourself. Here is a review of the "book" you are reading from Amazon, posted by a biologist -
Reading this book with a background in biology, I find that Johnson either profoundly misunderstands or seriously misrepresents not only the theory of evolution (which is actually a very complex web of theories, but Johnson has a knack for oversimplifying) but the way science itself operates. Johnson appeals to the layman's misunderstanding and mistrust of evolution, and of science in general, but is still unable to explain why the overwhelming majority of scientists accept evolution as fact, even the ones who are not atheists. In the course of his attack, he uses misdirection, innuendo, and misrepresentation and omission of evidence. Johnson rests his case on two rather shaky assumptions: first, that absence of evidence is evidence is absence, and second, that the fossil record truly has an appalling absence of evidence for evolution. Not only has the fossil evidence always been better than Johnson leads the reader to believe, but the evidence continues to be found, not only in paleontology, but also in the fields of genetics, developmental biology, and molecular biology.
Johnson is remarkably unimaginative when it comes to ways to test evolutionary theory, aside from pointing to gaps in the fossil record. Johnson goes into detail about the origin of mammals from reptiles as the "best" evidence of major transitions in the fossil record, yet there is abundant evidence from other groups, much of it published and available in the literature long before Johnson's book. One has to wonder how Johnson deals with the truly startling recent fossil discoveries in China.
Evolution is tested by each new fossil discovery. Yet Johnson dismisses the existing evidence while neglecting to explain why new evidence keeps turning up. Amazingly, Johnson ridicules the discoverers of a whale fossil with hind leg bones for using standard scientific wording, then uses this wording to imply the leg bones they found might not even belong to the whale fossil in the first place! Johnson attempts to discredit physical evidence, such as the transition from reptiles to mammals, so that he can concentrate heavily on biological systems, such as the eye, which by their very nature cannot be studied in the fossil record. He often asks questions like "how did a bacterium become a bird?" but doesn't ask "how did a jaw bone become an ear bone?" presumably because this can (and has been) studied and documented. Johnson will grudgingly concede a certain amount of speciation or "macroevolution." Johnson's actual claim is that evolution and natural selection are incapable of explaining the origins of higher-level groups like phyla, classes, and genera. Here Johnson makes the twin mistakes of assuming that phyla and other major groups evolve, and that the boundaries between higher level taxa are easily defined. Species evolve; higher groupings are artificial and the recognition of discrete groups with large gaps between them is in large part an artifact of taxonomic classification.
As do all creationists, Johnson completely overlooks plant evolution. Johnson is not entirely at fault here, since plant evolution has been woefully neglected by the popularizers of evolutionary biology like Dawkins and Gould, and Johnson himself admits that general and popular publications have been among his primary sources of information. In particular, I wonder how Johnson would deal with the huge number of plants that are fully capable of hybridization--both between species in the same genus, and between species of different genera, often wildly different in morphology, yet in many cases producing fully fertile hybrid offspring. Johnson further makes the mistake of assuming that species are both easy to recognize and to define. Such basic concepts as "species" and "speciation" are incredibly problematic in botany, precisely because evolution is an ongoing process and there are many populations representing the full spectrum from fully interbreeding through incapable of interbreeding--in other words, at every point along the road to speciating.
In the end, it's hard to know exactly what Johnson DOES believe, and he gives precious few clues as to what evidence he WOULD accept as convincing that evolution has occurred. I suppose it's progress that Johnson does not claim a literal interpretation of Genesis, or that the earth and universe are only 6000 years old. Although he takes pains to distance himself from the young-earth creationists, Johnson takes very personally the anti-creationism, pro-evolution, and occasionally anti-religious writings of many biologists that have been aimed precisely at the rightly-ridiculed "scientific" claims of the young-earth creationists. One wonders why Johnson gives credence to geologists--after all, nobody actually SAW the sedimentary layers being laid down millions of years ago--yet treats the science of biologists with such disdain.
This book is yet another case of a creationist (Johnson broadens the definition to include pretty much everybody who believes in God) pointing out errors, flaws, and weaknesses in evolutionary theory that biologists have made no effort to hide--yet failing to stem the tide of evidence that continues to unfold for evolution. In the end, Johnson's attitude seems to be that, since biologists themselves can't agree on all of the details of evolution, the theory itself must be wrong. Yet all biologists accept (1) that life has a long history on the earth, (2) that living things have changed over time, and (3) that living things have diverged from a common ancestry.
One final note: in the "epilogue" in the paperbook edition, Johnson complains about his treatment at the hands of evolutionary biologists. In particular, he complains bitterly about a book review by Stephen Jay Gould, in which Gould criticized both the style as well as the scientific content of the book. In other words, Johnson is complaining that a book reviewer is acting like a book reviewer, precisely as he had previously criticized a scientist for acting like a scientist.
You can't learn anything substantive about Evolution from the tripe you are reading any more than you can learn something substantive about Astronomy by reading Linda Goodman's "Love Signs." The only reason to read the book is to see how bankrupt his arguments actually are, but you need to familiarize yourself better with the theory if you are under the mistaken impression that his arguments have substance. I suppose there could be some value in learning the theory of phlogiston before being introduced to modern chemistry, but I tend to think it would serve better educational value to learn modern chemistry first, and then, by comparison, understand the flawed reasoning in the phlogiston theory. Trying to debunk Evolution by concentrating on Darwin is like trying to debunk modern Astronomy by concentrating on Copernicus. He got the heliocentric part right, but Astronomy has been markedly improved since his time. His notion that all motion was circular was certainly misguided, but that has no bearing on our modern understanding of Astronomy. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/18/2006 9:17:11 PM | | We aren't all speed readers. I also think Feral often plays devil's advocate just to see if he can get you going, Wonka. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/18/2006 9:22:41 PM | | Well evolution can be proven and someone had to get this ball rolling so maybe alittle of both? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/19/2006 2:59:54 AM | You are partly right Feral, I do nead to find words that are not so laden with hidden meaning, unfortunately there are none I can think of that suit the purpose.
I was not actualy talking about patterns, I was talking about one of the things that creationists see as proof of cration, the way in which things seem to be designed to work perfectly for thier enviroment and function. I was trying to point that this "Design" that creationsts point out is not contrary to Evolution but is required by it. Life is "designed" to fit into its ecological niche perfectly, but it is done so by natural law, not by an inteligent force. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 1/19/2006 7:21:30 AM | | And I would add that, that "natural law", is often trial and error. | |
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