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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 6:53:07 PM | | One cell indeed can become 2 cells and it is called mitosis I think. But it is not Evolution. The cell just copies itself. You need to have the cell to begin with. It is like when you photocopy the book. when you do this no additional information arises. When cell copies itself no new genetic information arise. That's why Evolution is not happening. Evolution needs the appearance of new more complex information. About chemical reactions. In those reactions no new matter/energy arise. Things just rearrange themselves like in double displacement for example.I have to go now. I'll write the rest tomorrow about DNA, genetic intormation etc. | |
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Dryad
| Joined: 7/19/2005 Msg: 402 | |
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 6:54:52 PM | Hehe, I’m getting picked on.
Nah QuietJohn, the wink at the end of the statement was meant to indicate the whole thing was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Although eunuch’s could be considered elite I suppose… ;)
Still safe in that corner? 
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Dear Alyssa, regarding the amino acid creation, see post #226.
Other than citing the fact that past scientists have been of particular faiths… (which may go on for a wee bit and still not accomplish all that much in terms of supporting the arguement). Is there a coherent set of observations to support creation? How would creation or Intelligent Design be disproved? Yes, answering the questions in post #4, would make for an interesting discussion. After 17 pages they still haven’t really been attempted. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 6:59:33 PM | Then maybe you can explain to me the problem of chirality and why proteins cannot form by themselves . Matter has neither power nor intelligence to cause itself. Just like you did not give birth to yourself, the Universe did not give birth to itself either. . Sorry I am very tied and have lots of things to do. I'll come with more explanation and variations later | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 7:18:08 PM | Evolutionists think their oppinions are better than other people's Isn't that kinda stating the obvious? If you're gonna try to figure something out, you probably go with the options you think are most likely to provide an answer. Is that any different from anyone else? What's the big deal? Are you trying to convert everyone?
Now more opinions of what is impossible and ridiculous. Anyone even understand the Big Bang and all the notions surrounding it? I provided some links which I doubt many read. Here's a commentary related to the Big Bang by one of the greatest uthorities in the world - Stephen Hawking. (http://www.hawking.org.uk/text/physics/quantum.html)
Thus one can get an apparently spatially infinite universe, from the no boundary proposal. The reason is that one is using as a time coordinate, the hyperboloids of constant distance, inside the light cone of a point in de Sitter space. The point itself, and its light cone, are the big bang of the Friedmann model, where the scale factor goes to zero. But they are not singular. Instead, the spacetime continues through the light cone to a region beyond. It is this region that deserves the name, the pre big bang scenario, rather than the misguided model that commonly bears that title. In this case, he is presenting a notion that the Big Bang was a specific event in the continuum of existence. If you can respectfully demonstrate why that is wrong, I may be more inclined to pay attention than I can to posts using ridicule as their argument.
Ignorance is no reason to give up on learning!
Lol, Dryad, yes I'm OK - just needed an interlude of frivolity. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 7:24:02 PM | It is just a theory. How can you proove it scientifically? Can anyone proove it 100%? Were you there and saw it ? Theory is a guess. that's all. some guy said it and you are repeating it
P. S. please read all my posts. they show biochemical challenge to Evolution. Forget the Big Bang and try to explain the formation of a cell | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 8:01:54 PM | Chill out Alyssa - we're not all against you - just trying to figure things out in our own way. I didn't bring up the notion of the Big Bang, merely responded to it. I've also acknowledged and expressed great interest in the 'formation of a cell'. I've even cited scientific papers which discuss prebiotic mechanisms.
As this discussion is going, I would be very hesitant to have my child exposed to similar exchanges between scientists, creationists and intelligent designers in school. Injecting ridicule and a false axiomatic approach based on unjustified senses of right and wrong just seems a bad example of how to interact intellectually or religiously with other people. Observing the differences in approach may make an interesting sociology topic, however. I guess the fundamental foundation of the religions we are mostly dealing with here is that belief is paramount and essential to full membership in that religion and that skepticism (uncertainty) is an anathema. In total contrast, science (at least as I understand it) recognizes that beliefs should be mutable and skepticism healthy. How can these two groups ever communicate effectively enough the have a comprehensible, respectful debate? Is there any hope of reconciling such divergent viewpoints? | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 8:33:22 PM |
Evolution, Evolution. There is a very good scientist M. Behe. He does not believe in God. He wrote a book called "Darwin's black box" (biochemical challenge to Evolution) not long ago. He is a biologist I think. I got this book from Salvation Army church (some guy gave it to me). I highly recommend this book. I heard many people talk about this book. Darwin in his book "Descent of man" uses phrase "we may suppose(this and that happened)" eight hundred times in 2 volumes. "Let us suppose" and "We may suppose" sound very scientific, doesn't it?
Goodness me. Behe doesn't believe in God? That seems somewhat at odds with his being a practicing Catholic - someone should point that out to him.
He's a professor at Lehigh University, and he has stated that in an article he wrote "I do agree that common descent is supported by the bulk of the evidence". His arguments center around the origin of novel structures, some of which he claims could not have evolved via mutation and natural selection.
And yes, science is tentative. I'm not sure if you yourself have any scientific background, nor if you have read Darwin's work, but he was a brilliant scientist in many fields of biology.
--R. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 8:39:59 PM | Actually we can, and have, proven evolution. The way this was done was with observation. We've seen new species come into existence. I'm not talking over a span of a million years. I'm talking a span of a couple years. We've even seen it from one generation to the next.
A theory is much more than a guess. A theory may start out as a guess (called a hypothesis), but it will also have plenty of evidence to support it. It will also have predictions that have later been verified. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 8:44:24 PM |
It takes ALOT more faith to believe in evolution then to believe in the fact that there was a Creator behind all this, one person said.
It takes no faith to believe in evolution because you can go observe it for yourself. No one has ever observed creation, and it violates the Law of Conservation of Energy (perhaps the best verified Law in all of scientific history). The fossil record makes sense if evolution is true but is incomprehensible if Creationism is true. Intelligent Design is falsified by the hundreds of examples of Stupid Design (e.g. the human eye's blind spot). | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 8:49:07 PM |
www.answersingenesis.org
www.talkorigins.org
--R. "which has a few things to say about AIG's idea of 'science'.." | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 9:11:59 PM |
No there is nothing wrong with figuring out how God does His miracles (we cannot fugure out everything though ) . Actually in the Bible in the book of Isaiah it is mentioned that the Earth is the sphere:"God is above the sphere of the Earth". The theory of Evolution requires long ages of struggle and violent death. Why would loving God allow this? God does not need Evolution. He is powerfull enough and smart enough to make everything right from the very first time.
Actually the usual translation is not 'sphere', but 'circle'. In fact, I don't know any Bible translation that says 'sphere'. Could you point it out to me?
The KJV for example has Isaiah 40:22 as:
22. It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
In other parts of the Bible, the Hebrew cosmology of a flat earth, resting on pillars, with a dome-like sky arcing over it 'like a tent' comes out rather clearly. They didn't think the Earth was spherical.
See http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/ThreeTieredUniverse.htm for one discussion with pictures.
As to God being able to 'make everything right from the very first time' I seem to recall him needing to use a Flood to kill virtually every living thing on Earth off because they'd gotten so messed up. So we're at least Version 2.0 already.
--R. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 9:19:28 PM |
For a while yes. But plants die and so does everyone else. They do not reverse entropy. Plants were designed this way. besides, usefull energy will decrease and "heat death" will happen sooner or later.
I'd ask you to explain how evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodyamics, but I'll instead ask you to go out on a sunny day and look up at the big, glowing thing in the sky. Your task is to figure out why I told you to do that.
Hint: The Earth is not a closed or isolated system.
--R. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 9:23:16 PM |
Darwin himself wrote in his book "The origin of species by means of natural selection" on page 85 : "Suppose an eye with all its complexity blah blah... could have been made by the means of natural selection seems to me an absurd in the highest degree possible" (well I put it in my words with the exception of the word "absurd", it is in the original).
Have you ever read the actual passage by Darwin on the eye? It's a standard Creationist misquote tactic to make it look like Darwin somehow had found a problem he couldn't explain. The problem is that's not what he said:
To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself originated; but I may remark that, as some of the lowest organisms, in which nerves cannot be detected, are capable of perceiving light, it does not seem impossible that certain sensitive elements in their sarcode should become aggregated and developed into nerves, endowed with this special sensibility.
Quoting someone and changing the meaning of their quote is not honest. I suspect you just do 'cut and paste' jobs from Creationist quote-mining sites?
--R. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 9:41:52 PM |
Skypoetone, this is just your personal oppinion, nothing else . Jews, Muslims and christians confirm Genesis account (one way or another). Unless you think you know more than those people
The only problem being that Genesis story is contradicted in assorted ways by the actual, you know, physical evidence.
I don't blame the Hebrews for plagiarising the Epic of Gilgamesh for their holy book when they were in exile in Babylon, and I don't blame them for not knowing any geology. They were a bunch of pastoral sheep herders who thought the world was flat and the sky was holding up huge amounts of water.
I do blame people today who ignore the last 2 centuries of geology that showed Genesis can be nothing but allegory, simply because they can't accept that Genesis could be in error.
So, yeah, I think we do know a lot more about the Earth than the people who wrote Genesis did. Who wouldn't think that?
--R. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 11:05:48 PM | Evolutionists think their oppinions are better than other people's
Well, if a person takes the time up to come up with a hypothesis and tests it and after a great deal of thought and effort comes up with a working theory to explain some natural phenomena and then someone else says they know something else is the truth because they read it in the bible and therfor they don't need to test anything, yes I think the opinion of the former is better (in regard to any matters that merit scientific scrutiny).
...Because that person's opinion is based on a process of logical reasoning (inherently limited as it may be) and not on dogma, which is unsound in its very foundation. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 11:27:04 PM | Wow! just finished watching Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel. Made me think wheat is the most successful organism on earth. Encouraging those dumb humans to work their butts off just so they can produce all those millions of tons of wheat every year!
Good comments, Tsur.
Evolutionists think their oppinions are better than other people's No, Lizards know best - they've been around for so long ;) | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/29/2005 11:28:15 PM | Wow! just finished watching Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel. Made me think wheat is the most successful organism on earth. Encouraging those dumb humans to work their butts off just so they can produce all those millions of tons of wheat every year!
Good comments, Tsur - thanks.
Evolutionists think their oppinions are better than other people's No, Lizards know best - they've been around for so long ;) | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/30/2005 5:17:10 AM | Optimistic_Alyssa, you said earlier that...
please read all my posts. they show biochemical challenge to Evolution. Forget the Big Bang and try to explain the formation of a cell
I would like to refer you to post 203 from earlier in this thread...
Whats all this crud about science having no clue to as how evolution started? Its fairly simple actualy.
Firstly you nead a planet, one thats not too hot and not too cold, has a medium size so that grazity is within a tolerale range, and an atmosphere... think that sounds unliklely? Well we have already found several that are of similar size and distance from thier respective sun as we are and those are just on our nearest neighbours.
Next you nead some simple sugar complexes. These are easily created as carbon will tend towards creating long chain hydrocarbons under most circumstances, even in space we find sugars floating around frealy.
After sugars we require the four bases TAGC. Again these are found comonly throught the universe as they are created through the interaction of sugars and acids. We also nead long chain protiens, now these are not so easy to come by, they require a liquid medium to develop in. Howeve space be so vast as it is, this still means that even the long chain protiens join up in the inky vastness of space.
Now we have the building blocks of life, we can create a simple strand of RNA. This again, is know to hapen in the big black beyond. Now, RNA creation is one of those lovely special chemical reactions that we like to call. A SPR or Self Perpetuating Reaction. What this means is that a small section of RNA acts as a catalyst providing the ideal conditions for more RNA. as long as there is suficent fuel to do so.
This however is not yet life, although capable of reproducing itself. it is only a chemical reaction at this stage, no more sentient than the nclear fusion that is self perpetuationg at the heart of the sun right now. However it will soon become we call life, when two sections of RNA come together along the TAGC bases and creat a strand of DNA. So far this has not been observed as a cosmic event, but there is no reason that it canot happen, we just haven't seen it happen.
So now we have DNA from a start of simple chemical reactions. But we still don't have life. This is where its starts to get a little bit complex. Firstly the DNA, under presure and heat, starts to unravel into RNA, as it dose so it grabs free bases from the surounding soup of chimcals to creat a section of mRNA identical to one half of the DNA.
After this the DNA sheds the mRNA it has just created and "rezips". This step provides a twined copy of mRNA that codes for the creation of other simpler chemicals and as such provides the DNA with a surounding of simple sugars, bases and protiens. These protiens and sugars are free to interact as they will and eventualy form Lipids. Lipids are VERY important as they are a ball and chain shapped protien that has a ball that is atracted to water and a chain that is repeled from water. When you put several of these lipds together, they form tiny beads as they stic to each other and to a small droplet of water.
If the DNA strand, and its mRNA copies are on the inside of this ball of lipids. You get a stable chemical enviroment, where a strand of DNA is able to control its enviroment by altering the levels of chemical protiens, acids and fats (all made from simple sugars) it creates. It dose not change its enviroment diliberately, but dose so by a siple process of Homeostasis. when there is two much of one chemical, no more of it can be produced because it just cant interact with its DNA or mRNA hosts.
This is the basic cell. The building block of all life. To develop to this stage has not required direct intervention but a simple proces of random chemical reactions.
If you have any questions about this please don't hesitate to ask. I will endevour to answer all valid questions to the best of my ability.
The first part of this natural progresion of chemical interactions has already been proven.
You also said that...
Then maybe you can explain to me the problem of chirality and why proteins cannot form by themselves
Please explain to me just what evidence you have for this? I realy would like to know as every single second millions of protiens are forming inside our bodies, whiout them we would die. They do not only form in the body but can be created in the lab, this is very important as MANY protiens are used for medical care and research. But most importantly, how if protiens canot form themselves, do clouds of amino acids, sugars and protiens form, in the depths of space. All protiens nead to form, is a bit of energy and the right conditions, they can even do this in the cold vacume of space ussing UV light as an energy source.
Would people kindly stop making up thier own version of science and stat doing some resaerch when you encounter a problem you canot explain on your own. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/30/2005 5:46:49 AM | @Optimistic Alyssa
I am a trusting soul, but that's not to say I will be easily taking in. What I believe may not be correct, we can't know anything for sure. I'm sceptical of the unknown, which is the right stance is all. I do believe there is a God and that the possibility of a created evolution is more sensible (intelligent design)... do I have all the answers? (ha!) I'd be rich beyond my wildest wouldn't I? You know even science for its entire endeavour just cannot answer for everything. We just take what we know, believe what we do and form an opinion... in reality that's all any of us can do. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/30/2005 7:11:06 AM |
No, Lizards know best - they've been around for so long ;)
It's *still* the Age of Bacteria. We need them, they don't need us.
--R. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/30/2005 8:58:51 AM | Lol, Tsur, yep, even better than wheat.
I often wonder if the root of most of our problems is that we humans are largely overcome with an excessive sense of our own self-importance. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/30/2005 9:10:44 AM | Alyssa,
It is possible that this concept of ‘long ages of suffering, struggle and violent death’ is influencing your ideas? Suppose you were to focus on a cooperative strategy. Think about a bird species as an example of adaptive radiation, for example. Let’s say a bird species arrives on an island--a new environment with many available niches. They start to specialize. Some nest on cliffs and others in trees (or they eat different kinds of seeds, etc). If they all nested on cliffs, there would not be enough cliff area for them all to find a home. This could be viewed as a cooperative evolutionary strategy. In time, each group’s offspring nest in the way their parents did. As more time goes by, genetic drift changes morphology of the birds and the ecology of the environment also changes in response to the birds (especially if they have specific roles in seed dispersal, etc.) They become different species in the sense that they either cannot produce offspring with each other, or don’t—the tendency of life is diversification. If the two different bird populations can and/or do reproduce, that gets into different definitions of ‘species.’ For the purpose of protecting species and ecological integrity of ecosystems, BOTH cliff dwelling and tree dwelling birds should be protected. If either of those is lost, there is not only a loss of genetic diversity, but also potential harmful and reverberating effects to the ecology that depends upon that kind of bird in the habitat (and a loss of the Beauty of diversity). Reproductive success does not require death. It could just mean that if all birds decided to nest on cliffs, there would not be enough nesting places and some birds would not have any or as many offspring.
The Peppered Moth is often an example of observable evolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
I tend to view the tendency of life to diversify with awe. This insures that life can adapt to whatever conditions exist. The house of cards is often used as an illustration of species diversity and the importance of protecting all kinds of life. Yanking a card out of the house could cause the whole thing to collapse. Human beings are in there too. Now, ‘cards’ might have a backup (like two cards together both performing the same structural function in the house), so that if you yank one, the tower does not fall. But, people do not know which ones have backups. This is why I say that the more diverse interpretation of ‘species’ is the more useful understanding of the word to protect the Earth’s ability to support humanity. If humanity ‘yanks’ the wrong cards (which might be a rare bird, soil microorganisms, etc) we could harm our own ability to survive. Life would rebound and diversify again (even if people are not part of that.) I rather like humanity and don’t want that to happen (plus I find the diversity of life, Beautiful.) Protecting nature and the diversity of life is in our interest as a species. Again, that ‘butterfly effect’ comes to mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect
Maybe the ‘Ark’ is Earth right now and the ‘two of each’ might be that structural species card, and a backup card. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/30/2005 10:31:20 AM | Ecological value of species http://cnx.rice.edu/content/m12154/latest/
The sea otter/urchin/kelp forest is an example of the effects of loss of one species on the ecology of an ecosystem. In the 18th century, sea otter populations declined due to trapping, and later by fishing (they get tangled in nets). With their decline came a dramatic rise in the populations of their food (mussels, urchins, etc.) Sea urchins feed on kelp. When the numbers of urchins went up, the kelp forests they fed on began to decline. (Kelp is also the home to many other species, reduces impact of waves on shore, and so on.) Kelp barrens occured where forests once were (and all that depends on that ecosystem were harmed, as well). Fortunately, this was recognized and otters were protected in time. Usually within 2 years of reintroduction of otters, the kelp rebounds. This illustrates the idea of keystone species. The loss of a single species (regardless of position in food cycles) can have profound effects (and reverberating effects) on the ecosystem. Those effects can cascade throughout the ecosystem (and since no habitat is a closed system, to others as well)...
This illustrates the functional roles of species. While many ecosystems have duplication in functional roles (more than one 'card' holding the system in balance), science/ecology is far from even beginning to fully understand that kind of complexity or predicting effects of changes. Loss of a single species can have drastic effects later, and/or elsewhere. Diversity increases an ecosystem's stability and resilience--ability to respond to change. (This gets back to the clumper/splitter idea, too)
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/30/2005 10:54:56 AM | Ok first about "circle " in the bible. The Hebrew word that KJV Bible translates as circle is actually translates sphere. Jewish scholar told me that. Unless you are Hebrew scholar you better take my word for it . If you are a Hebrew scholar then translate "Shema Israel Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehod". Ehod?
I am goint to be very busy for the next several days and will not be able to post my replies. So don't bother insulting me right away. I will not be able to see it . I am also have a problem with my computer. It keeps freezing. So I post my replies piece by piece, please be patient with me. | |
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| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 9/30/2005 11:04:04 AM | | Now about Big Bang. Cosmic microwave radiation indicates that space is the same temperature everywhere, to within 1 part in 100000 to the power of 32. However the initial conditions of the big bang would have produced wide fluctuations in temperatures between different regions. So to produce the observed temperature uniformity, there must have been a commom influence, that is, all parts of space must have ones been in thermal equilibrium. the fastest way for regions to come into equilibrium would be for electromagnetic radiation to carry heat from one region to the other. However some of those regions are too distant for light to have traversed between them, even in the assumed time since big bang. | |
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