|
|
|
|
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 7:14:26 PM |
But what about the lack of transitional fossils? There is not even one.
That's a lie. See
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html | |
|
Dryad
| Joined: 7/19/2005 Msg: 527 | |
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 7:26:28 PM | Hi Jimmy,
Young earth creationists, typically date the earth at 6000-10000 years old. Dharma asked about it in one of her posts I believe. As well there seemed to be a focus to discredit radioactive dating at one point. Additionally, it’s on the website answersingenisis.org which has been cited repeatedly.
Cheers | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 7:30:34 PM | Oh, I just don't see how anyone can believe the earth is onl 6000-7000 years old. I believe in creation but I don't think it was only 7000 years ago.
I really don't know what that quote meant."Sin is geographical"
I think it may be talking about wars or something. Or even civilization for that matter.
God bless and take care, Jimmy | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 7:40:10 PM | It's a little bit of circular reasoning there my friend. If someone told me therefore it can't be true? What if a scientist told me? Is that not true either? If you want proof, will you accept it if it supports creationism, or will you rotate back to the circular logic "I don't believe it because a creationist told me so" or (even worse for a Christian) "the Bible told me so". Open your mind, there is a lot of evidence out there for scientific creationism, and although there may be kooks who hold flat-earth type theories (frankly I don't like those any more than you do), there are plenty of highly educated people far more educated than you or I, and holding eminent positions in the scientific world, who are convinced by the creationist position. If you are prepared to open your mind and not just deflect all creationist arguments as fallacious, have a look at a website like www.answersingenesis.com or even better go to a Christian bookshop (or Amazon) and buy a book like "Refuting Evolution" by Jonathan Sarfati. For a more exhaustive creationist bibliography check that AIG website. Put your money where your mouth is and do an honest assesment rather than just accept the secular humanist position which is quite frankly freaked out by the propositon that God even exists at all, let alone that there is any proof for His existence. We have all been brainwashed by our schools and universities, for the simple reason that a secular democracy will not allow Creationism to have unfettered access to the minds of our young. Fair enough, but why allow Evolutionism the same privilege that is denied to Creationism? If it were up to me I'd take both theories off the curriculum and tell students to do their own independent research and make up their minds. Unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen because we are in a spiritual war and neither God nor the enemy is going to give up on the souls of our young people. I guess God's love is greater than yours or mine, He knows that the truth is better for us than a lie and He has his agents out there spreading the good word that He is alive and well on planet Earth and is actively doing spiritual battle for our souls.
Anyway, I've said my bit, the ball is now in your court... | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 7:53:47 PM | Unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen because we are in a spiritual war and neither God nor the enemy is going to give up on the souls of our young people. I guess God's love is greater than yours or mine, He knows that the truth is better for us than a lie and He has his agents out there spreading the good word that He is alive and well on planet Earth and is actively doing spiritual battle for our souls.
Pardon? You think there is a 'spiritual WAR?... for souls of our young" ? Who is the enemy, EXACTLY? I don't think that at all, and I have good reason to think that I know what I'm saying about that--but you do not. We are talking about evolution and creation, not fundamentalism nonsense (in my view, and what'da *I* know... ;) ). | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 8:15:19 PM | | I think, for the purpose of facilitating discussion, we should separate ideas about ‘evolution’ from the ‘big bang. Do you agree? | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 9:03:55 PM | Pardon? You think there is a 'spiritual WAR?... for souls of our young" ? Who is the enemy, EXACTLY?
Yes.... Good question....
Enlighten us please, Brizkiwi? | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 9:11:33 PM | Hey, Dharma:
Good suggestion, but the fundamentalists are unable to separate threatening but valid scientific hypotheses one from the other. Some will often, and many will always, lump all science together as heathen, when in reality it is the fundamentalists who would believe 2 millenia-old, handed down, twisted-to-suit-the-situation mythology over current observable fact. There really is no contest, but try telling that to one of the fundamentalists.
As an issue of free speech, creationism and its **stard offspring Intelligent Design (oh, we're too baffled to figure it out so it must be Divine! Hallelujah! Oooh, it has to be like a watch, so there has to be watchmaker! Hallelujah!!) should not be prohibited from curricula out of hand, but never, never in any science classroom--it is not science. It is mythology repackaged by tortured marketing wannabes in labcoats. Put it in a " 'non-science' fiction" literature class if one must. It doesn't even rise to the level of a pedestrian philosophy class, since it is devoid of self-examination or critical thought.
Of course, the Christian fundamentalist Jihad schools across the landscape will not fail to teach mythology as science, turning back scientific progress generations, not to mention many other issues. 'Fail', of course, is the operative word.
Good luck separating evolution by natural selection from cosmology and the big bang! You have my support!
David | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 9:16:04 PM |
It's a little bit of circular reasoning there my friend. If someone told me therefore it can't be true? What if a scientist told me? Is that not true either? If you want proof, will you accept it if it supports creationism, or will you rotate back to the circular logic
A scientist offers proof in the form of a hypothesis or a theory and demonstrates clearly how it explains a particular natural phenomenon. The scientist admits that the hypothesis or theory may be refutable. A creationist does not do this. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 9:36:49 PM | The scientist admits that the hypothesis or theory may be refutable. A creationist does not do this.
And, as a tangent, nor should (as opposed to a creationist) a scientist should have no problem with being proved wrong, if he/she is a scientist. I am looking to be proved wrong. I believe G-d is a scientist. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/4/2005 10:17:14 PM | | Take in mind what I’ve said before. ‘Survival of the fittest’ might, right now, mean survival of the altruistic. Ironic, huh? Avian flu—which is killing people in SE Asia--is one example. With air travel, we are only hours away from everyone else on the planet. If there is a disease somewhere else in the world, ALL better be concerned about ‘them.’ We SHOULD care because of ethics and genuine care for all of humanity, but now it is coming down to survival of the ‘fittest=ethics.’ ‘THEY’ are ‘US.’ | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 1:50:29 AM | My three cents (I'm feeling particularly magnanimous):
Hurting others can also be in a psychological way, such as parents or authority figures who brainwash people into believing
Problem there, Eagleeye, is _who_ decides what kind of teaching counts as brainwashing, and therefore harming? Yeah, that's the reason I cut off the quote. It just gets uglier from there.
That is to say God does not send anyone to hell. Some people might choose to go there by their own free will.
Thin ice, there too, Rumiko. Problem being there's only two choices: Believe and be saved, don't believe and go directly to hell with no $200 along the way. So, while God doesn't _send_ anyone there, it's not exactly that people choose to go, either. More of a "heads I win, tails you lose" kind of deal.
Jimmy, I loved the quotes, although I'd seen some of them before. Big happy. Speaking of which:
What on earth does "Sin is geographical" mean? Is this talking about moral/cultural relativism? I think so, Dryad. I've noticed this myself. Very big cultural and geographical distinctions in what constitutes a sin. Now, the meat:
No scientist at all ever saw any transitional fossils.
How many of us have a grasp on the concept of the mechanism of evolution? A point like this just breezes by without anyone pointing out the obvious? I'm pained, guys. Seriously. Check it, we are _all_ "transitional forms." Any one of us who's had the opportunity to breed, and whose line continues to survive can be considered a "link" between our ancestors and our descendants. About two million years from now, a creature of some sort filling the role of paleontologist in his/her/its society will dig up my bones and say, "hey, that has to be the missing link between the homo sapiens fossils we've found and the things we've got crawling all over the kitchen!" I'll admit it makes me laugh like hell every time I hear about another fossilised species being discovered which is "clearly related" to another fossilised species, differing only in the shape of the jaw, orbital structure, or tooth arrangement, when you see an astonishing array of differences in the humans we've got now. How do they make the distinction? Joe Blow had a deviated septum, a funky shape to his jaw because of an injury he had when he was two, and he inherited his father's unusually high cheekbones. John Doe, though, never really got much of a growth spurt, never drank enough milk, had perfect teeth from being related to a dentist, and could do those cool contortionist moves because his bones were limber and his joints were particularly flexible. Fast forward a million years or so, and scientists finding these guys' remains eight hundred thousand miles apart in different environments might easily be persuaded that they weren't the same species. Who can say? Maybe they've got ways of checking, I don't know. Here's the fun part, though. If Joe's septum and cheekbones and John's small size and flexibility were all genetically derived, and they were big breeders in isolated populations, their descendants _could_ diverge into separate species with those traits. That's the way it works, folks. Allele frequency, survivability, descent with modification, call it all what you want. The fact of the matter is that you're not going to find an unbroken family tree of the descendants of one arbitrarily determined "original" piled on one another where all the dogs in the neighborhood go to die. It just doesn't work that way. Baffled questions and dubious tentative answers with a lot of logical thought and acceding to plausibility form, not the basis for theory, but the observations that get us all going, well how did it happen? It's the observational problem in the scientific method. Scientists have hypothesised, tested, researched, and predicted according to theory, and guess what? It works. So, sure, if you want to be picky and say there aren't any transitional fossils, go ahead. It's no skin off the guys that find the answers. Be a little more specific as to what constitutes a "missing link," and you might be held to accepting it when one is found. Maybe not. Still,
but if we've changed doesnt that mean that we ARE a different creature?
Dud hit the nail on the head, right there. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 3:57:56 AM | | Ah, fossils again. There is Burgess fossil bed near Field, Brittsh Columbia, the love bone bed located 12 miles west of Gainsville, Florida; Kenya, Africa; the asphalt pit of La Berea etc, etc. None have transitional fossils. Scientist reconstruct bits and pieces of broken bones and give them shape according to theit imagination but there are no transitional fossils. Even Evolutionists (honest ones) say it. Are you an archaeologist? Besides, fossilisation is not happening now and scientists have no clue as to how it could be done. The have guesses called theories but this is all. I can discuss the prosess of fosilisation if you want to talk about it. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 4:10:19 AM | brizkiwi, I think I agree with you . I checked out Jonathan Sarfati, he is one of the top scientists, had various degrees and graduated with honors. Books "Refuting Evolution" and "Refuting Evolution 2" are very good. I doubt very much people here will check them out. But many will insult you, so be ready . Those books are very scientific but people would reject them in favour of Evolution. I wish someome would read them with an open mind and then make a conclusion. People judge books before they even read them. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 8:15:11 AM | | Your discussion of fossilization would likely be as ignorant as your discussion of transitional fossils. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 8:24:51 AM | Brizkiwi, I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I'll assume it was. First off there is evidence for evolution. Even if we totally disregard the fossil record the truth is that we can and do observe evolution happening right now. But the fossil record does support evolution anyway. It also makes no sense in terms of Creationism. Incidentally Creationism has no evidence for it because it's not a theory. Theories must make predictions about what we can observe and Creationism doesn't. Evolution does and has had numerous predictions later verified.
Don't waste your time with Creationism. Few, if any, Creationists are biologists. They constantly lie, use outdated information, quote evolutionists out of context, or are just plain ignorant because they've never taken the time to study the evidence. I know because I used to be a Creationist until I looked at the evidence.
Incidentally I'm not a Secular Humanist (I suspect you have no idea what the term means anyway) even though I am an Atheist. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 8:59:23 AM | Jonathan Sarfati, he is one of the top scientists
Actually, in the scientific community (the real one), he is acknowledged as a clown and a charlatan (for those scientists who even follow such trivial matters).
No offense to you, personally, but he is. | |
|
Dryad
| Joined: 7/19/2005 Msg: 543 | |
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 9:45:10 AM | Before I even tackle ‘transitional fossils’ or many of the other, rather poorly-supported claims made above. Furthermore, why would you think fossilization is still not occurring?
I ask again, source? It’s impossible to debate ill-defined arguments.
Hypothesis are guesses. Theories are supported by observations and have yet to be disproved using empirical evidence. If this happens for long enough they get called Laws.(Read the thread please, this is a recreation of earlier discussion).
I must say for a Buddhist Rumiko your literacy of creationist literature is very good. But the appeal to authority, that Sarfatia’s a recognized scientist (albeit a chemist specialized in superconductors) and consequently somehow deserves to be read uncritically, is logical fallacy. There are many other well recognized scientists that support evolution. See the difficulty with an appeal to authority?
Argue the observations that support your view.
And as Dharma alluded to, a theory being ‘scientific’ does not mean evidence discovered in the future will not disprove it. You could say it’s almost Buddhist in nature; cautioning against forming attachments. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 10:23:48 AM | I don't think you understand what a 'transitional fossil' would be. All organisms are 'transitional' insofar as evolution is a continuing process, so each species represents a point on a line, if you will, from the past to the future.
For example there are a number of fossil series known that do give an understanding of a number of clades - the talk.origins FAQ on Transitional Fossils (I think Kathleen Hunt wrote the original one) gives a number of them. Among the vetebrates alone, the FAQ gives: fish->shark, fish->amphibian, amphibian->reptile, reptile->mammal transitional fossil series.
As to the Patterson misquote, it's a standard Creationist lie. You just don't know the subject, or you wouldn't be repeating the lie.
Another prominent biologist who has been the victim of creationist misquotes and dishonesty is Dr Colin Patterson of the British Museum of Natural History. In a private letter to creationist Luther Sunderland, who had asked Patterson why no transitional fossils were illustrated in his book, Patterson responded: "I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. . .I will lay it on the line, There is not one such fossil for which one might make a watertight argument." (Creation Science Foundation, Revised Quote Book, 1990). Since then, creationists in both the US and Australia have widely circulated this quote, contending that Patterson is "admitting that there aren’t any transitional fossils".
This is absurd on the face of it, since Patterson’s book contains several descriptions of different transitional fossils: "In several animal and plant groups, enough fossils are known to bridge the wide gaps between existing types. In mammals, for example, the gap between horses, asses and zebras (genus Equus) and their closest living relatives, the rhinoceroses and tapirs, is filled by an extensive series of fossils extending back sixty-million years to a small animal, Hyracotherium, which can only be distinguished from the rhinoceros-tapir group by one or two horse-like details of the skull. There are many other examples of fossil 'missing links', such as Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird which links birds with dinosaurs (Fig. 45), and Ichthyostega, the late Devonian amphibian which links land vertebrates and the extinct choanate (having internal nostrils) fishes." (Patterson, 1978, p. 130)
However, when one researcher wrote to Patterson to ask about the much-repeated quote, Patterson responded with yet another example of creationist selective editing: "The specific quote you mention, from a letter to Sunderland dated 10th April 1979, is accurate as far as it goes. The passage quoted continues ‘... a watertight argument. The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no: there is no way of answering the question.’ " (Lionel Theunissen, "Patterson Misquoted: A Tale of Two 'Cites', 1997) Thus, it becomes apparent from the full context that Patterson was referring to the impossibility of establishing direct lines of descent from fossils, a position fully in keeping with his cladistic outlook. Patterson was not saying there were no fossil transitions, and Sunderland’s attempt to claim otherwise can only be viewed as an effort at deception.
Source: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/misquote.htm
I look forward with amusement to your butchered explanation of taphonomy (fossilization).
--R.
P.S. I've *held* fossils from the Burgess, including Anomalocaris and others. You clearly don't know what you're babbling about. Cut your losses and run. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 10:25:42 AM |
Actually, in the scientific community (the real one), he is acknowledged as a clown and a charlatan (for those scientists who even follow such trivial matters).
No offense to you, personally, but he is.
Yup, Sarfati's a joke. Sorry.
Well, Creationists think he's clever. Intelligent people just laugh at him.
--R. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 10:31:09 AM |
Hypothesis are guesses. Theories are supported by observations and have yet to be disproved using empirical evidence. If this happens for long enough they get called Laws.(Read the thread please, this is a recreation of earlier discussion).
Dryad:
Oooh, don't get me started on 'Laws' versus 'theory'. 'Laws' so confuses non-scientists. Here comes 'it's just a theory'....
--R.
p.s. tried to send you an email but am blocked :( | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 10:37:52 AM | | Well, despite of what you say Evolutionists did not find a single transitional fossil. Besides the problem of the lack of transitional fossils Evolutionists face the polymerization problem. Water depolymerizes substanses, that's why scientist try to evaporate water to ger amino acids but heat destroys many of them. I was in the university, did a research about polymeriszation and submitted it to my teachers and none of them refuted me. Cells do not assemble themselves by themselves and evolution is impossible. The activation of amino acids and the formation of peptides under primordial conditions is one of the great riddles of the origin of life for evolutionists. The reaction to form a peptide bond between 2 amino acids to form a dipeptide is: H2NCHRCOOH+H2NCHR'COOH arrow point H2NCHRCONHCHR'COO+H2O (1). The free energy (sorry I have to take care of something now, I'll continue in a min.) | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 10:47:33 AM | The free energy change (delta G1) is about 20-33 kJ/mol, depending on amino acid. The equilibrium constant for any reaction (K) is the equilibrium ratio of consentration of products to reactants. The relationship between these quantities at any Kelvin temperature (T) is given by standard equation: K=exp(minus delta G/RT) where R is universal gas constant (=Avogadro's number x Boltzmann's constant k) =8.314 J/K. mol. Should I continue or do you think you can believe me that it is not possible for the protein to form itself? Many substances are antagonistic to each other and would combine and destroy each other under primordial conditions. So cell has no chance to be formed by chance | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 11:02:29 AM | | O man, i hate when i am being distracted. Well i could expand some more on the problem of polymerization. For the reaction (1) K1= [H2NCHRCONHCHR'COOH][H2O]/[H2NCHRCOOH][H2NCHR'COOH]=0.007 at 289 K where a compound in the square brackets symbolises the consentration of that compound. This means if we start with a consentrated solution of 1 M (mol/l) of each amino acid, the equilibrium dipeptide concentration would be only o.007 M. Since the equilibrium concentration of polymers is so low, their thermodynamic tendency is to BREAK DOWN( they fall apart) in water, not to build up. The long evolutionary ages make it much worse, they all would fall apart. High temperature accelerate the break down of those amino acids. To form a chain it is nesessary to react bifunctional monomers, that is, molecules with 2 functional groups so they combine with 2 others. If a unifunctional monomer reacts with the end of the chain it terminates the chain (it cannot grow). In prebiotic simulations experiments produce lots and lots of unifunctional molecules. There is exclusive "left-handedness" in aminoacids of which proteins are made. Right handed one terminates the chain. Amino acids quickly racemise making a recemic mixure, that is 50/50 of both right and left handed ones . | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution Posted: 10/5/2005 11:26:07 AM | | P.S. Please do not resort to name calling but use scientific evidence instead. I have more equations to show you to prove my point. | |
|
|
| Page 22 of 156
|
8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48 |
|