| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 6/29/2005 11:01:19 AM | Well so far every thing seems to get hung up on the Flood and the time span needed to re-populate the planet. For most Christians, if the Bible is absolute Truth, then EVERYTHING in it must be true. Hence Creationist have more to deal with then just the big bang. Which others have suggested could be the hand of God and no one has really knocked that notion.
As I said, where the debate hangs is with the Bible/Flood. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 6/29/2005 10:36:04 PM | The only reason I can say is that there is much order...and design in the universe...a math or coherence and stability and order..beneath chaos and disorder...(look at streets from an airplane or farm plots!) ah...there is a high probabillity that life could just "spring up" but where does the math come from for and behind "probability" and "statistics" that made the ordered mind that seeks patterns that can make coherence out of coherence and non coherence...
I guess..I could see both..and I could see a creator that made..everything..even evolution..I used to be blinded by science..and math.then I thought..who made the sun? and black holes? those are neat!!!
and, other reasons... | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 6/30/2005 8:46:32 AM | but where does the math come from for and behind "probability" and "statistics" that made the ordered mind that seeks patterns that can make coherence out of coherence and non coherence...
So you're suggesting that because 1+1=2 God must exsit?
I would say you simply did not take your math studies far enough. I too saw a sense of order in the chaos that is the Universe and wondered if it might be the hand of .....? But as you get into more and larger numbers you see that there is a big difference between the Macro and the Micro. I would suggest some research on Fractuals and Chaos therory. And you'll see that 1+1=0. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 6/30/2005 8:49:00 AM | 1+1human = three including God as stated in the Holy Bible.
Sorry had to add that! humor? maybe:)> | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 6/30/2005 8:52:54 AM | But if you're including God then wouldn't it be:
1+1humans = 6.
the two humans, their offspring and the trinity (Father, Sun and the Holy).
 | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 6/30/2005 9:02:32 AM | Cute I will not disagree with you on that but then I cannot say for sure that is correct.
Too hard for me to say anything about that.
Nice insight though Treq | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 6/30/2005 9:41:39 AM | Interesting analogy you bring up - that your observations are based on the rules, or world, that you make them in. Chaos never says 1+1=0. It says that combinations of x + dx are difficult to predict unless you know EXACTLY where you started from - to the last decimal place. Eventually, small innacuracies (such as the widely quoted butterfly in China) can have huge consequences (such as the widely quoted hurricane). That's why it's so hard to accurately predict the weather. Fractals means that there is an incredible amount of detail that we are usually not even aware of. Both are results of very specific rules - a complex order that even the most expert among us cannot completely divine.
Where did these rules come from? Have they always existed or were they invented/created? Did rules evolve too? | |
|
Unxzst
|
Joined: 12/22/2004
Msg: 133 | |
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 6/30/2005 2:07:32 PM | forget fractals and chaos theory! chaos is order, and order is chaos!
read up on particle physics, quantum mechanics and string theory. lately chemistry is looking a lot like physics, which is in turn better described by math, which in its turn is starting to sound like eastern philosophy!
is the observer part of the observed? is there even an observation, or only analysis?
chaos simply means results obtained are unexplainable by current theory. and even though existence of God can never be ruled out, the rules are changing, and there number of places for god to hide is shrinking.
also...are we talking about the creation of the universe, or creation of life on this planet?
as far as im concerned, the only place creationists have any argument is regarding the creation of the universe. creation of life can be replicated in a laboratory and on a computer. beginning of the universe is still partially unexplained. | |
|
| |
-One-
|
Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 135 | |
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 7/25/2005 10:24:57 PM | | I would argue that the two are one in the same. However perhaps that would be for another thread. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 7/27/2005 8:16:14 PM | Evolution is just as involved with religion as creationism. You have to be a religion to have "faith" in evolution, which didn't come into being until the time just before Darwin. If evolution is true, why didn't someone think of it before 150 years ago?
Plus there has never been a single shred of evidence for evolution outside of so-called "finds" of fossils which were proved to be hoaxes. The same rules should apply to teaching theories, not as facts. If creationism can't be taught in schools because it is religion, then neither should evolution be taught, because it is not science, but FAITH. | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 137 | |
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 7/27/2005 8:19:38 PM | | I suggest you read the thread, all of these arguments, and other fallacies and misinterpretations, are already addressed. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 7/28/2005 2:24:57 PM | | If God planned evolution then why are there so many examples of bad design in nature? Why hasn't God evolved a human jaw big enough for all our teeth? | |
|
| |
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:32:01 PM |
If evolution is true, why didn't someone think of it before 150 years ago?
Because the Church would have put you to death for saying it.
Plus there has never been a single shred of evidence for evolution outside of so-called "finds" of fossils which were proved to be hoaxes.
This is simply not true. There are thousands of fossils that are fully accepted, even by Creationists, that are evidence for evolution. But the fossils record isn't even the best evidence for evolution. Genetics is much better. We can observe genetic changes in real time. Those genetic changes are known as evolution. We also get evidence from the distribution of species, from comparative anatomy, from comparative biochemistry, from embryology, and from the structure of chromosomes. Creationists are lying to make a fast buck, or because they think they need to lie for Christ.
The same rules should apply to teaching theories, not as facts. If creationism can't be taught in schools because it is religion, then neither should evolution be taught, because it is not science, but FAITH.
Evolution is a fact. It can be directly observed. Anyone with a sibling who is not a twin is evidence for evolution. | |
|
shrimp
|
Joined: 3/10/2005
Msg: 141 | |
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:32:06 PM | | READ the BIBLE and star with GENESIS.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That basically says it all !!!! | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:45:31 PM | | ^^^^I've read the Bible. It contains factual errors. How about you read a textbook on evolutionary biology. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/4/2005 7:38:33 AM | READ the BIBLE and star with GENESIS.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That basically says it all !!!!
Well first I would say there are a lot of books, why should the bible be given any more importance then Homer or Hesiod?
On the other hand if you believe the bible to be "The Final Word", then explain the Flood, as that is where this debate has hit a stone wall.
Answer Msg: 4.
Thanks | |
|
-One-
|
Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 144 | |
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/4/2005 7:49:44 AM | | Why would the Creative force in nature even want to evolve life over night? Why would it not make mistakes? The science of evolution is fine, as long as it doesn't simply assume that all 'religion' thinks like Christians do. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/4/2005 11:48:36 AM | | I suppose it depends on what kind of creative force you're talking about. Does it evolve species to improve current survivability or does it have some long term evolutionary goal? Why would an Intelligent Desinger purposely make bad designs? Now if your Designer designs for immediate needs then he's no different from evolution. But by Occam's Razor He can safely be removed from the theory. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/4/2005 12:13:24 PM | Before considering how life began, we must first understand the term “organic evolution.” Organic evolution, as theorized, is a naturally occurring, beneficial change that produces increasing and inheritable complexity. Increased complexity would be shown if the offspring of one form of life had a different and improved set of vital organs. This is sometimes called the molecules-to-man theory—or macroevolution. Microevolution, on the other hand, does not involve increasing complexity. It involves changes only in size, shape, color, or minor genetic alterations caused by a few mutations. Macroevolution requires thousands of “just right” mutations. Microevolution can be thought of as “horizontal (or even downward)” change, whereas macroevolution, if it were ever observed, would involve an “upward,” beneficial change in complexity. Notice that microevolution plus time will not produce macroevolution. [micro + time ? macro]
Creationists and evolutionists agree that microevolution occurs. Minor change has been observed since history began. But notice how often evolutionists give evidence for microevolution to support macroevolution. It is macroevolution—which requires new abilities, increasing complexity, and new genetic information—that is at the center of the creation-evolution controversy.
Microevolution vs. Macroevolution. Notice that macroevolution would require an upward change in the complexity of certain traits and organs. Microevolution involves only horizontal (or downward) changes—no increasing complexity.
| |
|
-One-
|
Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 147 | |
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/4/2005 1:15:20 PM | | The creative force of nature is the force that sprouts the seed. | |
|
Dryad
|
Joined: 7/19/2005
Msg: 148 | |
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/4/2005 1:21:49 PM | Ah this one always drives me nuts.
Future forces can’t work on selection, so there’s no long term goal. What may have been a great adaptation in the past, may be the cause for your extinction if the environment changes. (Like the poor tree that relied on the gut of the Dodo for break dormancy and distributing its seeds). From an evolutionary standpoint, pretty much everything alive today are evolutionary equals. From the least complex to the most complex, from amoeba to centipedes to humans, all are successful at reproducing and passing on there genes to their offspring. If there is pattern of increasing complexity, perhaps it’s because that’s a way to occupy empty niches, instead of competing for occupied ones. Perhaps, many of the increasing complexity mutations involve extra duplication of chromosomes (often fatal, but not always). Maybe we’ll find out. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/4/2005 3:44:17 PM | | Evolution is not about increasing or decreasing complexity (though that might be an offshoot). Evolution is about changes in gene frequencies. This is true of both micro- and macro-evolution. Macroevolution basically means the creation of new species. This has been observed as it can happen in a single generation. More usually it takes many generations, but still within an observable time frame. This has been observed as well. No Creationist has come up with a mechanism that would stop speciation over the long haul. | |
|
| Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/18/2005 6:35:22 PM | I can believe in evolution after the fact. Meaning I can believe it after life began but what evolution cannot prove is how life began. I'm not saying that I believe in the biblical idea either, just that I have never seen any proof of the origin of life from evolutionists. To believe in life just happening from a puddle of primordial ooz takes a huge leap of faith. At least as much of the faith needed to believe in crationism.
Here's an interesting article that asks some really good questions about evolution. It's worth checking out. He makes some really good points.
www.fredoneverything.net/EvolutionMonster.shtml | |
|
Home
login 
