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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/14/2008 3:54:59 PM |
The only "ridiculous" leap in logic is to ignore the surveys, the numbers and the given reasons why women are now in the much higher numbers as being the ones to leave their marriages and the reasons they are giving for having done so...
Seems like more chicken and egg arguments to me.
Women DO leave more often, but you seem to assume that the problem is with the guy, not with women's unrealistic expectations going in to relationships which invariably don't live up to reality. Blaming the guy for the marriage breakdown is a very convenient way of deflecting personal responsibility, it seems to me. | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/14/2008 4:08:26 PM | Seems like more chicken and egg arguments to me.
Oh my.. another label! What is it we have here on POF if not "chicken and egg" discussions?
Women DO leave more often, but you seem to assume that the problem is with the guy, not with women's unrealistic expectations going in to relationships which invariably don't live up to reality.
Actually Cap, I am not assuming that the problem is "with the guy". What I am taking exception to is a thread and the multitude of posts that once AGAIN, point their finger at women who let themselves go as being the reason for marital breakdowns.
If you have read any of my other posts on these forums in response to women who post that a man should take all of the financial responsibilities in marriage or women who think they should never have to stay in school, have careers or grow up, you will see that I am pretty quick to address what I see as a rather childish way of looking at life.
But what is more of an "unrealistic expectation" than either one of them going into a marriage thinking that the other person is NEVER going to change and that not all of those changes will be positive.. for EITHER of them? Many people have never known a weight problem because of their metabolisms or having no problem with making the effort to take care of themselves. Many people have lifelong problems with keeping their weight down. Other people have intimacy problems that don't surface until they are in a relationship that is "supposed to be" intimate but ends up feeling like 2 strangers who have been shipwrecked on an island with not a thing in common. And how about those who go into marriages thinking that the other person should craft their lives entirely around them?
I think, that in past generations and particularly, the ones being commented on, people did cast themselves and their spouses into pre-designated roles that they saw as being a "good wife" or a "good husband". It carries forward when those of us from those generations start to post but I think it's important that we ALL be willing to take responsibility for our own happiness and accept responsibility for the fact that maybe we weren't such wonderful partners.
That isn't what I see happening in thread after thread about how women need to agree not to let themselves go... as if that's the only problem when we all know, it sure as hell isn't! | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/14/2008 4:28:07 PM |
Actually Cap, I am not assuming that the problem is "with the guy". What I am taking exception to is a thread and the multitude of posts that once AGAIN, point their finger at women who let themselves go as being the reason for marital breakdowns.
Yes, well, the threads blaming the man for not paying enough attention to his SO or not communicating as the main reason for marital breakdowns are equally multitudinous.
Is one reason more valid than the other? Nope. And as much as you hate to hear men say that they don't want their women to chunk up because they don't find it at all arousing, women complain about the same thing in the fora quite often. Women LOVE to say it's all about LOOOOOOOOOOVE, but I don't buy it for a second. They are just as shallow in at least as many ways as the men.
Cheers. | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/14/2008 5:18:49 PM | | Silken Fire you are the deepest form of now .......... In this moment I am filled as I read your genius insights to what is really going on ... this has been the most interesting thread ... to see all express what is really happening in their hearts and minds under the ego and cynicism of how the world of couple hood is changing is remarkable. Maintaining physique is not about attracting your mate it is about respecting and nurturing and loving the space suit that you were given when you were born and to the very best of ones ability , it is about feeling attractive for you ... to request as opposed to nurture and create is abuse and abuse is not the foundation of a loving environment, my brain already says, "NEXT" this is a person who needs to evolve or likely have something catastrophic come their way .. so that they see in others what they need to see in themselves ... to see the pain translated to words of people who are extremely overweight .. to get to "why" is to know that you who listen to their pain must feel and if you do not than you need a lesson on becoming human. Anyone who begins a life long bond with stipulations of superficial vanity and does not understand that the human body has a life span but the human bond does not and it is in the bonding of true caring that creates what our world needs. LOVE is action ... anyone that offers a prenuptial based on superficiality needs to take a trip to a war torn country or read a few good books on the insidiousness of belief as a reason for destruction ... Love and honor have zero to do with lust and eventually any women who gets embroiled in the game with a guy of "am I "still" good enuff" is going to get a back draft and the fire will head off to feed off of healthier stokers... | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/14/2008 6:50:16 PM | Love and honor have zero to do with lust
In romantic love, romantic relationships desire is a crucial component. Otherwise, the love is like that felt for a child, sister, friend.
For me, without desire, I don't want the relationship, not any part of it. It's the motivation to have a relationship, and the glue that holds it together. If there is no desire, there will be no relationship.
It's not as if I make any of this a "surprise". When I am in the initial stages of a relationship, I make it quite clear, that it is desire that drives the bus. I will want to be attentive to a lover, and to see her happiness. If it becomes just friendship, I'll care, but not in the same way.
The thing is, each of us gets to choose our priorities, and each of us gets to set the order of priorities. If we're honest and upfront with those, who choose to have us in their lives, and they later "change the deal", then it's their actions that caused the relationship to end. For me, without desire, I wouldn't have entered the relationship, and without it, I wouldn't stay. As I said, I'm honest with those with whom I've been in relationships, that what matters first is that we each feel that "I want you", and if that isn't there, then there's no basis for a romantic relationship.
It's partly why I have no intention of marrying again, nor any intention to try to change teh mind of anyone focused on marriage. For me, the ideal is when we both are working at it, to keep the "I want you" alive for each of us, with no promises about forever, but seizing each day as it comes.
I'm fine with recognizing that many people want something different, to elevate "having a relationship" over the reasons for having one in the first place. That's fine, but it's not for me, and I never promise it to anyone. I will not again find myself stuck in a passionless committment, nor do I ask for that from anyone else. | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/14/2008 7:28:37 PM |
Posted By: Frau Blücher on 9/6/2008 8:05:43 PM
Subject: Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Message: Nothing can improve the old “to have and to hold, from this day forward; for better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and cherish, till death do us part” like a “no fatties" clause.
LOL...now that's comedy!!!  | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/14/2008 10:37:25 PM | | If you asked me and I know yah won't .. ...... no prenups needed ......... Guys, gentlemen, rogues, fellow citizens of NA due north non applicable hah ...... I'd like to give it a go with waxing a few uni-brows and give some fellas a bit of eye liner and get some of the stunned deer in the head lights look on most guys faces in their profiles, again no prenups ........ the guys in my area .. which encompasses the entire globe .. hah .. could use less ego and more depth in their eye balls ......... and short ugly people should not even breath let alone look for nuptials of any kind .............. and anyone with a lisp and a PHD should be banned from any sort of medium to meet and reproduce anywhere on the planet .. and senators who can shoot elk but can't keep a good teenager daughter ....... virginous should try clinique and stay home and finish the blow job she started first before running the world....... as a vice in a squat camp... and men too sexy for their shirts should wear em while trying to get to first base ,... sliding can caus a lousy scratch an wax let alone scratch and sniff... and oh yah .............. the only prenup I believe women should always without wings have in their contact contract is that their man should always have hair unless "she" pulls it out for you ... haha ... I due go on .............. haha....... | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 8:22:34 AM | If it applies to BOTH, I have scene guys that let them selves go. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. While weight gain after marriage could be because of children, or just so busy taking care of the husband and children that a woman doesn't have time for herself. It should be a clause in the pre-nep that the husband will do part of the house work, grocery shopping, child care. Who can take care of themselves after they exhaust all their energy?
Your idea of "marriage" is really based on a physical issue and not the true meaning of a "commitment" | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 8:30:53 AM | | Physique maintenance like all endeavors of value requires motivation. Would you be willing to put into a pre-nup that you would be required to give her the motivation to do what you ask or is it all on her shoulders with no responsibility from you? It takes two to tango after all. | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 8:53:06 AM | Men let themselves go, too. I think the thing to look for is someone whose values and habits are compatible with your own. My former boyfriend was, and is, physically active and, while he is not vain, really doesn't want to get fat and keeps a neat appearance. If he notices himself gaining weight, he cuts back on what he's eating and starts getting more active again. He's moderate in his eating habits. I have no doubt he'll maintain a healthy weight. I'm the same way. I doubt either one of us will become significantly overweight.
As for a prenup - boy, I don't know about that. What would be the point? Divorce is easy to get, you don't really have to have "reasons" these days except "irreconcilable differences." Certainly that could be an "irreconcilable difference." People change in other ways, too. My ex husband was a good lover before we got married and became very selfish in bed and bad tempered afterwards. If I had foreseen this, maybe I could have made a prenuptual agreements about him pleasing me in bed? But you don't have to "prove" anything any more. Why, then, put something like that in writing?
I think the thing to do is to discuss carefully and thoroughly the things that are important to you before marriage and choose wisely and carefully. Realize things are going to happen that no one can anticipate.
By the way, I don't think it's superficial to not want to be with someone who is seriously overweight. Maintaining a healthy weight comes from sensible eating habits, staying active, and having an attitude that places a priority on health and a neat appearance. Some things that others mentioned are beyond our control. Getting fat is something we have some control over. I don't care about someone's height, color of their eyes, or other things that they can't control. I look for someone who is lively and interesting, someone who can at least keep up with me and even better if they challenge me to keep up with them. I love being active and eating pretty healthy. I'm not fanatical about it, either. I also love ice cream and chocolate and making tiramisu - I'm far from a purist, I'm just moderate in my habits. These are all very important to me. It's a way of life. I look for someone whose approach to life is compatible with my own.
I think that's really the key - look for someone whose habits are similar to your own. And if, over time, life happens and they fall away from those habits, offer to help them get back into them. Help make sure there are plenty of good vegetables, fruits, and lean sources of protein around to eat. Suggest going dancing or on a bike ride or to the gym or hiking instead of vegging out on the sofa or going to a movie. Nagging never helps. Having a partner to bike, walk, or work out with is a lot more fun than going it alone and it's a lot easier to maintain healthy eating habits when we are surrounded by others with healthy eating habits.
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 9:05:22 AM | If some guy handed me a prenup with a "health and wight clause" in it, I probably would walk away. While I've spent most of my life in the 100-125 lb range, there was a period about a year and a half ago when a medication I was taking made me gain 25 lbs. I eventually changed that because I couldn't stand carrying what was for me "too much extra weight". If he's going to dump me over 25 lbs., he apparently didn't know or care enough about me in the first place. I would have to wonder, "If I get hit by a truck tomorrow and ended up quadriplegic, will he abandon me?" Forget THAT noise.
Of course, a guy like that wouldn't want me in the first place, I suppose, since I have arthritis in my load-bearing joints (from an active and occasionally clumsy youth), and have a family history of Parkinson's (aunt and grandaunt)....
My mom had a great response to that idea: Good riddance to bad rubbish. | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 9:31:14 AM | How hard is it for a man and a woman to pledge to maintain their health and fitness to the best of their ability, and then DO it? There are a lot of excuses on this thread, and a lot of worst-case scenarios are being brought up. It doesn't require a pre-nup for a couple to maintain their health; but both partners have to be serious about it, rather than being serious about the loopholes and the excuses.
The partner who maintains his or her health can be expected to get rid of a partner who is unwilling (we're not talking about illness or accident) to maintain fitness. If you're unwilling to stay healthy, you should get dropped. | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 9:56:01 AM | ^^^I agree that two people who want to stay healthy for themselves and each other ultimately can do it WAY more easily if they're both into it, so it shouldn't be a hard promise to keep - barring anything out of their control, of course.
All you have to do is exercise together and/or motivate each other. | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 10:09:00 AM | I agree, it's not realistic. Find a partner that is committed to a healthy
lifestyle and above all has some self discipline! Most worthwhile
endeavours require work and some measure of discomfort!
Just like, I'm never ever gonna fall for the, I'm gonna quit smoking line again!
But hey, I'm from Missouri! SHOW ME! | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 10:37:58 AM | I don't know, what the fuss is all about. In Germany we've had this clause for a long time. It's called the "Anti-Fatvergnuegen Clause".
On the day before the wedding, the bride's volume was being measured by putting her into a barrel of Sauerkraut. Later that was changed to beer, because people found out, that the brides were sneaking sausages in, to increase the starting volume. Oktoberfest resulted from this tradition.
If a woman gained weight, it was usually blamed on the starchy potatos and dishes made with it. It was said, "if you eat too many, you get dumped". Hence the name "Potato-Dumpling."
And now you know the rest of the story! | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 2:00:23 PM | The partner who maintains his or her health can be expected to get rid of a partner who is unwilling (we're not talking about illness or accident) to maintain fitness. If you're unwilling to stay healthy, you should get dropped.
The problem with this whole thing in my opinion is that it's entirely based on a FLAWED premise to begin with. Therefore this whole argument is deeply flawed and is nothing but a huge straw man.
To assume that simply because a person is thin and has managed to remain thin throughout the years must mean that they're fit and care for their health is not only a fallacy, but it's laughable.
That would be like saying that this heavy smoker (2+packs/day) who is one of the laziest ass she knows BUT who has been naturally thin her entire life is fit and a picture of health. How absurd!
Like I said on several posts now, I don't mind or even care when someone wants to talk about preferences and attraction and how important it is for some more than others. Everyone is entitled to their preferences and quite frankly, I have a lot of respect for those who are able to step outside the box and say exactly what they want or need even if it doesn't mesh with the majority of opinions (or mine).
It's not their position I can't accept, it's the intellectual dishonesty I see when some people (not all) seem to be hiding behind a thinly veiled curtain of concern for their partner's health and fitness level when all they seem to be concerned with are their partner's outside physical appearances.
I mean c'mon...I think we all know that when two people genuinely love and care for each other, they are naturally concerned for their partner's health *in every way*...mentally, emotionally, spiritually AND physically. And what the outside looks like is only a tiny fraction of the part that makes up physical health, which in turns is only one part of the whole.
And to pretend that a few extra pounds somehow matters more on the whole that any other ailment or problem or illnesses one is likely to face during a lifetime under the guise of "concern" for their health while ignoring ALL other aspects that makes a person healthy is intellectually dishonest in my opinion.
Personally I like to call a spade a spade and I find it ironic that some people have accused women of wanting to hear only what is politically correct when it is in fact them who are playing the PC card and unable to call a spade a spade.
So if someone wants their partner to remain thin cuz they don't think or they know for a fact that that's what turns them on and the sight of "fat" repulses them or turns them off ? Fine. I have no problem with that.
But I wish people would stop calling it a concern for their partner's health when it is in fact a personal preference or requirement they have which has nothing (or very little) to do with the overall health of a person unless we're taking extreme cases into consideration.
Besides, extreme cases are almost always an indication that the whole of the person's health is suffering, which means that not only are their physical appearances affected, but their mental, emotional AND spiritual health is affected and/or suffering also. And to simply reduce people into body parts at the detriment of the whole human being is dehumanizing and extremelly sad in my opinion. But to each their own.
JMO
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 2:15:22 PM | Maybe men are driven to such covert measures! You appear to be
quite smart, but not apparently smart enough to realize that should
any man even allude to having preferences with regard to a woman's
physical size, and an army of feminists and other women are ready to
perform a immediate castration on said subject! | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 3:56:17 PM |
for the record, women are just as "stuck" as men if the marriage is based upon her weight/physical appearance. If sexual attraction is merely based upon a number on a scale and her ability to remain frozen in time ~ I suppose it's fair to assume you're willing to get out the tape measure and "measure up" (so to speak) since we all know, it really is the size that counts
You're quite right, that it's not just women, who can let themselves go, and when the situation is that it's a man, who has done nothing to remain attractive to a wife, who has kept herself in shape, she would have the same right to feel dismissed and disrespected.
The point is about negative change in areas that are under the individual's ability to control. Most commonly that would be weight and personal grooming.
It is not fair, nor reasonable, to perceive a grievance about those things that were in place in the beginning. If a person is overweight, for example, when you start dating initially, then you can't complain about the person "letting herself/himself go", if he/she remains overweight. Penis size, as referred to by VGE is what it is. If a woman feels a man is "satisfactory" in the beginning of the relationship, it's unlikely to change over time, nor is it anything that a man can control.
That's part of the point. Hair loss, the natural effect of aging, illness, injury are all things that can't be controlled. Weight and personal grooming are. If a person lets himself/herself go, then the other partner has a right to feel aggrieved. It also will often trigger a decrease in attentiveness by the other party, who will then use the decrease in attentiveness as an "excuse", and it becomes a vicious circle, that often ends in divorce. | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 4:08:42 PM |
So if someone wants their partner to remain thin cuz they don't think or they know for a fact that that's what turns them on and the sight of "fat" repulses them or turns them off ? Fine. I have no problem with that.
Well, I'm callin' the spade a spade. If I were with someone and they started ballooning up, I may still love that person, but I'm sure not gonna be too enthused about having sex with them. I've had sex with overweight women, even fat women and it just ain't my cup o' tea. The only exception was my ex while she was pregnant, but she was back to 115 or so within a couple of months of having the kids.
It's just the way I'm am. I can't see that clause ever working in an actual prenup, but I know that the sex part of a relationship would go the way of the dodo as would the relationship eventually.
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 4:10:08 PM | Shrinkage bums me out ... My prenup would say that his income level must increase by at LEAST 5% per year for me to stay turned on!!!
Ah, that's old news and has been a given amongst women for millenia. How else do you expect me to pay for my younger lovers???  | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 4:12:19 PM |
Shrinkage bums me out ... My prenup would say that his income level must increase by at LEAST 5% per year for me to stay turned on!!!
Ah, that's old news and has been a given amongst women for millenia. | |
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| Prenuptial - maintaining physique - is it reasonable?
Posted: 9/15/2008 4:13:22 PM | ^^^^^I'm with you! It's just the way certain parts of me are wired!
And I see often around here, that some women just don't understand
that there are men like that. They prefer to think of them merely as
"Shallow"!
One particularly disgusting woman even suggested that such men just
"Grow a Penis" NICE! I think my Privates crawled up inside me and hid
for two full days after that! lol | |
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And for the record, women are just as "stuck" as men if the marriage is based upon her weight/physical appearance. If sexual attraction is merely based upon a number on a scale and her ability to remain frozen in time ~ I suppose it's fair to assume you're willing to get out the tape measure and "measure up" (so to speak) since we all know, it really is the size that counts. 
