| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 9:35:36 AM | At the end of the day there has to be some rationale behind the decision that the stewards ultimately made. Whether people agree with it or not isn't the point. It has to be accepted that they came to the conclusion they did for a reason no matter how that conclusion is judged in hindsight by people who disagree with it.
As far as I'm concerned this attitude that the stewards simply acted out of spite as part of a conspiracy involving Ferrari makes any sensible debate about the subject pointless. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 10:03:36 AM | As far as I'm concerned this attitude that the stewards simply acted out of spite as part of a conspiracy involving Ferrari makes any sensible debate about the subject pointless.
Fair Point. But given that
a) Ferrari did not protest Hamilton's manoeuvre.
b) The race 'winner', insofar as it being either of the two drivers involved in the incident was not affected as Kimi had subsequently crashed into the wall.
c) McLaren acted in 'good faith' having twice sought asurance that Hamilton had complied with the rules while the race was still in progress.
It does give 'fuel to the fire' of the conspiracy theorists.
Jackie Stewart has commented that F1 should have full-time permanent stewards - I think this would be vastly superior arrangement to that currently in place - if Charlie Whiting can officiate at every Grand Prix why not Stewards? Furthermore in my opinion at least one of the three should be an ex-driver who has driven at the highest level of motorsport. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 10:41:58 AM | McLaren never asked the stewards for their opinion.
They asked race control, which as I'm sure you're aware is a different role.
Charlie says in his opinion it seemed ok.
Now, that might help in any appeal (although I don't think they should be allowed to when you look at the official rules) but it is just his opinion, not an official stewards verdict.
Also, can anyone show me the rule in the 2008 sporting regulations that Lewis followed when giving back the place to Kimi negating any advantage. Everyone is saying this and that about the rules, so lets have it. page, section and paragraph. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 11:13:58 AM | FIA rulings page http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/EAC2585AB885FDDCC1257483004B3147/$FILE/1-2009%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2011-07-2008.pdf
Paragraph 16 points 1 through 4 state the different occurrences that are deemed to be illegal racing incidents and are therefor punishable by penalties ...
Surprisingly the incident in question here isn't listed as a punishable offence ...
Hmmm strange that .... | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 11:39:07 AM | msg#104
Pants - cheers, my copy of next years paperwork hasn't arrived yet - will bookmark that. Wonder what is in there that's new. Am now trying to find the rally paperwork for next season (and yes, my questioning is for personal gain, having been penalised for a similar offence I'm curious to find out what defence I can use next time *g*)
Anyways... it's the section regarding the use of the track
2008 FORMULA ONE Sporting Regulations, article 30, section 3
General Safety
a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.
and
2008 International Sporting Code, appendix L, chapter 4, article 2
Code of driving conduct on circuits - Overtaking
g) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the race.
Surely either of those would cover the grounds for the penalty to be applied?
I can see this ending in tears - especially if (as I'm thinking it might) they don't allow the appeal to be heard. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 11:41:02 AM |
and it was not for cutting a corner but taking his main rival flying off of the race track!! he was also disqualified for cutting a corner
It's a matter of fact...
Monaco? one driver got a fine for cutting a corner and not conceeding, therefore hammie did conceed so your point does not compare
Can't remember what year but if it was an important car on the track he got stop/go so again you're just wrong.
You keep babbling on about the pit lane?? you do know what we are talking about?? i think you will find the incident between hammie and kimi was out on the circuit LOL
Yes and you know it hence you your next 'point.'
you are reffering to Kimi well he had plenty of time to stop before nudging Lewis!!,, or maybe you are reffering to Lewis in his pitlane incident a few races back, yes he made a mistke, we are all human after all
Suprising that completely taking someone out of a race can be put down to 'human error' but a perfectly driven apex causes such a fuss.
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 12:00:19 PM | And as for this
The ways in which the cars can slow to speed in milliseconds Nonscence. Takes a F1 car in pitlane speed about 50 ft to stop.
you can overtake on the outside of a chicane Absolute tosh, the leading car has the right to be on the racing line, unless it was taking the longest way around the apex there wouldn't be room for two cars.
he went to the outside & was 3/4 of a car past the red shed into the first part of the chicane. He was carrying too much speed into the corner and had therefore lost the racing line.
We all know all about racing lines, engineering, physics and advanced driving techniques cos unless we sit on a sofa on Sundays and watch biased comontators giving their opinons about .
Watch some BTCC, normally on the same day as F1 before it comes on. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 12:50:56 PM |
Watch some BTCC,
You've got to be joking right Touring cars are nothing but joyriders on a race track for crying out loud.
When Tim Harvey says "That's a fantastic clean overtaking move by Plato" And he's actually telling the truth, that's when i'll start watching the tripe you've mentioned again.
Can I ask you if you've actually ever raced? I'm just curious that's all. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 3:21:58 PM |
Blocking is NOT about holding the race line.. If you watch the incident you will see Kimi move across, away from the race line to block Hamilton on 2 occasions. That is not allowed, not my opinion but FIA rules...
OK, how about a stupid question?
If Kimi held the racing line, and decided to leave it, how come he encountered another driver?
Surely that second driver was not pursuing the racing line either? | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 3:37:55 PM | | ^^ There's no ruling for the overtaking driver, that's why .. He can drive where he likes on the track.... If they all have to follow the racing line no one would over take,, EVER ... So yes, slightly stupid question ... The only reason the leading cars in an overtaking battle have to hold the racing line other than a single blocking manoeuvre is to ensure overtaking CAN happen ... | |
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li0n0
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Joined: 7/16/2007
Msg: 112 | |
| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 4:00:06 PM | to the other left............of my bollox
during a race when a driver get forced off the track what does the rules state article 3million and one section 9 | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 4:21:36 PM |
There's no ruling for the overtaking driver, that's why .. He can drive where he likes on the track...
But the rule doesn't apply to the lead driver? Jeez!
The only reason the leading cars in an overtaking battle have to hold the racing line other than a single blocking manoeuvre is to ensure overtaking CAN happen ...
So, is blocking allowed, or isn't it? | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/10/2008 11:29:01 PM | Ok .. Here goes ... In a situation where two cars are fighting for the lead (or any position) the lead car is allowed to move across from the racing line to defend his position ONCE ... Any more than that and it is deemed as blocking .. The following car has to be able to make more than one move from the racing line or overtaking would be an impossibility no matter how much faster the following car was going....
So in short blocking is not allowed .. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/11/2008 2:03:32 AM |
Can I ask you if you've actually ever raced? I'm just curious that's all. As you will tell me you used to be a F1 driver so I will say "Yes I was too", done advanced driving and my own fair share of night lane racing a bit of rallying (Through road construction sites) and some carting.
When Tim Harvey says "That's a fantastic clean overtaking move by Plato" The difference between F1 and BTCC is that you can get away with a few nudges without your car falling to bits and littering the track with broken carbon fibre. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/11/2008 2:38:02 AM | ^^ The thing is, they aren't comparable .. I watch the touring cars if I fancy a bit of rough, I watch F1 if I'm feeling more refined ...
It's like comparing the Dubai world cup with a local hack .. They are mutually exclusive .. If you prefer to watch the Touring cars, then that's fine but you cannot bring Touring car protocol into a forum thread about an F1 incident .... They are not comparable .. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/11/2008 2:47:50 AM |
get away with a few nudges (In BTCC)
You've got to be kidding once again, there's more ramming than in a night of going on the dodgems at the fair.
As you will tell me you used to be a F1 driver so I will say "Yes I was too"
Not what i was going to say at all, What i was going to say, is that I have had my fair share of Kart racing and without being big headed was pretty damn good. The reason i mention this is because you rubbish everyones opinions about racing lines & i have had experiences with racing. Following & leading.
done advanced driving and my own fair share of night lane racing a bit of rallying (Through road construction sites) and some carting.
Because of your above comment & the obvious sarcasm that was included, this leads me to believe that above quote about your racing experiences were quite possibly a dream that you had as a child.  | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/11/2008 3:03:26 AM | Face it
I have had my fair share of Kart racing
Yesss....
Hardly Mansell stuff and you insult my experience....
there's more ramming than in a night of going on the dodgems at the fair.
If you want to watch purely non contact racing get Moto GP, they are faster in a straight line and cleaner racers than F1. | |
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Hagars
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Msg: 119 | |
| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/11/2008 3:16:09 AM |
So Hamilton has abided by FIA rulings and behaved properly ...
Unfortunately it didn't happen the way you said. he's flat out when the Ferrari's not in view.
http://www.formula1blog.com/?p=1983
this is exactly right
Hamilton took a short cut inside of the corner while off the track.”
from the link to Hamilton's on board camera.
this vid shows the track at the nearest point is to his right, he turns left
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=jDjAnXEadGc
Everyone's ignoring that point or showing a complete ignorance towards the rules of motor sport.
possibly the 25 second penalty would of been harsher than ten grid positions back next race but that's a completely different subject. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/11/2008 3:34:02 AM |
If you want to watch purely non contact racing get Moto GP
I do watch it & i'm a Rossi fan, i also wish Tosey would get his finger out (or his mechanics anyway)
And as for a non contact sport, it does have it's moments | |
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Hagars
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Msg: 121 | |
| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/11/2008 3:52:32 AM |
, What i was going to say, is that I have had my fair share of Kart racing and without being big headed was pretty damn good. The reason i mention this is because you rubbish every ones opinions about racing lines & i have had experiences with racing. Following & leading.
There is only 1 racing line threw a chicane, in fact the whole track, now to pass someone you either have the inside line into a corner or be whole length in front of them before moving over in front of them.
Now if you try and get up the inside of a car into a corner and do not get level you get pinged if there's contact, if you get level before the turn in you've earned the race line.
This is basic stuff for someone who has competed in motor sport that's not demolition derby or speedway, basic as you study the regulations of racing conduct and you dont get far thinking otherwise.
What your saying sounds good to the Hamilton fans who dont understand motor racing properly but in reality its quite irrational.
If the quote of yours is correct then I should mention Ive competed in motor sport for the last 6 years and i must say my knowledge is pretty bloody good as a result and not in go karts either, 400hp cars on very tricky circuits.
Followed f1 for 25 years, actually am a mclaren fan from Ayrton Senna de silva's day, followed touring cars which none other than Tom walkinshaw(know him and his f1 interests?) rates highly.
its quite confusing your experience in gokarts relates to this issue, but touring car racing does not.
I remember young Ayrton Senna De silva, he did rash overtaking moves in his early days much like Hamilton did on the weekend,he got in trouble,his fans defended him and the show went on, but in hindsight he was an instinctive skilled driver in a zone that was all or nothing, sometimes that zone lead to mistakes other times it lead to brilliance.
sound familiar?
For those who can sit back and observe it happens quite regular, your working your arse off trying in the race and you out of nowhere get an opportunity to overtake and you hash it.
Like Senna did one day in Adelaide chasing mansell or hill coming across an injured schumaker. In fact ive done it and had it happen to me.
The point is no matter how much Bravado from armchair fans goes on the rules are the rules, they wont change no matter how hard arm chair bravado's try and manipulate them, drivers will make mistakes, governing bodies will take action, sometimes wont and people will see things not there and others will never understand racing | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/11/2008 4:05:12 AM | Under normal racing circumstances a car following another out of the last chicane wouldn't be close enough to overtake into turn one as the start/finish straight at Spa is relatively short.
Regardless of whether Hamilton was slightly slower crossing the line or lifted for a fraction of a second he was considerably closer to Raikonen than he would have been had he not cut the chicane. This is obvious from the footage and is probably the reason why the stewards felt that he had gained an advantage. This can't be ignored as there must be some rationale behind the stewards decision whether you agree with it or not and it is the only logical reason I can think of for their decision.
I do believe that Hamilton was too eager. After his failed attempt at overtaking at the chicane he should have settled behind Raikonen until after turn one and then passed him later in the lap as others feel sure he would have done anyway. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/11/2008 7:46:57 AM | ^^ That is a perfectly fair and legitimate point of view and one I would agree with, other than the fact that the team sought approval from the proper authorities and were assured that they had made sufficient reparation ...
Perhaps in hindsight Hamilton could have held back for the length of that straight, he certainly had the speed to overtake Raikkonen again at retty much any point on the track ... The problem is, the team didn't have that luxury, all they had was the word of the race officials who assured them not once but twice that Hamilton had done enough to keep his position .... | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/11/2008 8:17:11 AM | other than the fact that the team sought approval from the proper authorities and were assured that they had made sufficient reparation ...
That isn't a fact until it's been verified. So far we only have McLarens version of events from their press release and as far as I'm aware the FIA haven't confirmed that this actually happened in the way McLaren claim. If this does prove to be true I'd agree that they probably have a strong case.
However, from past experience I wouldn't simply take the word of Dennis and Whitmarsh about anything. | |
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| HAMILTON DEMOTED FROM FIRST
Posted: 9/12/2008 7:04:16 AM | What matters (if you stop having a go at each other) is this, did hamilton allow kimi to regain the lead, and did hamilton still have unfair advantage through the use of the escape lane.
answer to both points i question..... YES.
wether or not Kimi blocked is irrelevant.
and while we're all being sentimental about this i thought Kimi desereved to win.
and i am a Mclaren fan. | |
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