| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/13/2008 10:56:02 PM | I saw James Orbinski a while back, talking about Canada's presence in Afghanistan. I think it was during Idea City 2006? I'm too lazy to google and see if a video is online, but he had a very insightful, although drawn out, presentation. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 12:00:27 AM | Well we're there already and the job isn't done yet. So what are we supposed to do ...just ditch the Afghan people and let them fight it out again ? Should we cross our fingers and hope the Taliban or some Al-Qaida-type of group doesn't wrest control of the country again ?
No, we should finish what we started. For one thing, it's too late to debate whether or not we should go there because we already are there. Well now that we're there, let's not do the job half-assed. For another thing, if we did decide to pull out and the country tore itself to pieces all over again, doesn't it also stand to reason that everybody in that nation would have a lot more reason to hate the West and Canada that much more ?
Maybe the Afghan people embrace democracy. Maybe the Afghan people reject democracy. Frankly, for most people in that country this is the break they needed to choose for themselves what they want. They can elect a dictator once we're gone and turn the whole place into some sort of concentration camp if that's what they want. What's important for us though is that we didn't leave them in the lurch or throw them back to the wolves. It's as much about future relations with the Islamic world in general as it is about nation building today. Since the Afghan people have never really had the opportunity to choose for themselves or even see how Western countries are run, they can't know what they're missing. Well, we'll give them that opportunity and then they can do with it as they please. We can't be held responsible for it afterwards though. And yeah, that matters quite a bit since it's not particularly healthy for the notion of world peace if we go on giving half of it a reason to hate our guts and wage war against us.
Whatever the Taliban wants is probably the opposite of what we want to do in Afghanistan. If the Taliban want us out, that's practically all the reason we need to stick around. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 6:04:43 AM | Canadians will ignore the terrorists threats out of apathy. Historically, foreign policy has not been top on our agendas for election platforms. I took these excerpts from the Ottawa Citizen
A quick scan of the five parties' campaign websites following the election announcement suggested that none was interested in making foreign policy a defining issue in their campaigns, and for good reason.
The Conservatives and Liberals reached a consensus on the immediate future of the mission in Afghanistan, making it difficult for either one to claim a uniquely superior vision of Canada's external role. Indeed, since the election campaign has begun, both parties have reiterated their commitment to pulling our troops out of Khandahar by 2011 (announcements, it should be noted, that created only passing headlines). . . . Canadians are largely uninformed about their country's actions abroad and, as a result, lack the visceral attachment to foreign policy necessary to mobilize them to vote for a particular candidate or party. Historically, even the national commitment to foreign aid, one which appears to be so tightly tied to our national values, has been compromised with ease in times of domestic economic difficulties.
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dmotz
| Joined: 7/25/2006 Msg: 29 | |
| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 7:23:15 AM | Ignore them...until they kill 3000 of your citizens in one attack...yea...sounds good to me. I think you can talk to them, use your precious diplomacy...then when that does not work...kill them. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 7:59:49 AM |
Ignore them...until they kill 3000 of your citizens in one attack...yea...sounds good to me. I did not say that we were not dealing with them in a military context. As another poster stated, Canadian troops are in Khandahar, fighting the Taliban. What I said was that we would ignore the Taliban's threats to retaliate if we voted in the wrong party. It seems the average Canadian is not looking to the electoral parties to even debate the issue of our mission in Afghanistan and have probably not heard of these threats. On the other hand, the Taliban obviously don't realize that our two main parties have the same stance on this mission.
The whole situation is sad, given that every week another Canadian returns home in a body bag. You'd think at the very least Canadians would want to know why they have sacrificed their lives.
I think you can talk to them, use your precious diplomacy...then when that does not work...kill them.
Tried it and it didn't work, so now we are at war with them. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 10:28:57 AM | | we have no business being there. do you honestly believe that when we eventually do pull out...they will switch over systems...and use a democratic one like our own? I hardly think so...and it would be very arrogant of use to think that we can change a way of life in a decade...that has been practised for generation after generation after generation. i think it is a sad unnecessary waste of life for young canadians...but i do commend them greatly for making a choice in life... and standing by their convictons. there is so much common civilians can learn from their actions. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 12:56:21 PM |
No, we should finish what we started. For one thing, it's too late to debate whether or not we should go there because we already are there. Well now that we're there, let's not do the job half-assed. For another thing, if we did decide to pull out and the country tore itself to pieces all over again, doesn't it also stand to reason that everybody in that nation would have a lot more reason to hate the West and Canada that much more ?
Maybe the Afghan people embrace democracy. Maybe the Afghan people reject democracy. Frankly, for most people in that country this is the break they needed to choose for themselves what they want. They can elect a dictator once we're gone and turn the whole place into some sort of concentration camp if that's what they want. What's important for us though is that we didn't leave them in the lurch or throw them back to the wolves
Yes I agree completely! Something I have noticed, have yet to meet a soldier who does not still believe in the Mission. Can not say the same thing about other missions. Met a lot of them too just recently at a BBQ up near Base Borden. Many for their 3rd tour. That tells me a lot.
The Liberals will not pull out I think, while I do not trust Dion to stay the course , there are a lot of Liberals who do back the mission.
Jack Layton? Heck, he wanted to yank the troops out a couple years ago when we were first threatened. Next day the Taliban targeted Canadians on purpose to raise the pressure to pull out back home here. Guess the Taliban know that terrorism does work with some sorts back here! | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 1:25:16 PM | The comments from some about the election in Spain neglect the fact that Spain has a large Muslim population, and that is where the anti war protests they brign up were coming from. No surprise there. The point about Spain's experience has validity though - will Canadians give in as Spain did? If we leave it up to spineless quislings like Layton, absolutely. What concerns me is, given that we already have terrorists living here in Canada, or using Canada to travel to the US as they have, what if terrorists try to back up this threat with action? You know, kind of like they did in Spain? What then? | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 1:29:01 PM |
The comments from some about the election in Spain neglect the fact that Spain has a large Muslim population, and that is where the anti war protests they brign up were coming from. No surprise there. The point about Spain's experience has validity though - will Canadians give in as Spain did?
There are so many differences between the Canada situation and the Spain situation the comparison is ridiculous.
What concerns me is, given that we already have terrorists living here in Canada, or using Canada to travel to the US as they have, what if terrorists try to back up this threat with action?
OMG the terrorists they're everywhere, hide your children, give away your rights.
Also, why the hell would Terrorists travel to the USA from Canada? They don't even need to. They can just go direct to the USA. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 1:38:19 PM |
There are so many differences between the Canada situation and the Spain situation the comparison is ridiculous. There are enough similarities the comparison is apropos. I don't expect you to see that, given your mindset. Rest assured however, that people with far more experience in these sorts of things do see it and have been concerned about it, and are looking into it - I reference the RCMP and CSIS to name two, so we won't have to worry that anyone in our government with a similar mindset to yours is missing anything we might need to know about.
Also, why the hell would Terrorists travel to the USA from Canada? You usually don't miss the point, but you certainly did here. FACT: terrorists have demonstrated that they will use terror to affect elections. FACT: they have made threats towards Canada. Obvious Conclusion: We take appropriate steps to protect ourselves, including looking at the experiences of other countries - such as Spain. Maybe you don't understand what every Boy Scout does: Be Prepared. It makes a kind of sense, don't you think? | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 2:29:17 PM |
If we leave it up to spineless quislings like Layton, Layton?!?
Don't you mean Harper? He's the only one who wants to sell out the country by auctioning it off to the Americans.
Layton's the one who wants to keep Canada predominantly in Canadian hands. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 3:09:06 PM | Why is Canada at war with Afghanistan? What is the mission?
Ostensibly the reason for the invasion was to capture Osama Bin Laden, the unproven perpetrator of the second 911.
In 1996 BRIDAS, an Argentinian company, had signed contracts with the Taliban and the Northern Alliance to build a trans-Afghanistan from the Caspian Sea to the Arabian Sea. This project was coveted by UNICAL and they attempted to have the Taliban break their contracts with BRIDAS but, the Taliban, bound by their honour, would not.
February 1998, John J. Maresca, a UNICAL vice President, asked the U.S. conress to replace the Taliban with a more compliant government. He had no success but Clinton sent a few bombs to known al-qaida training camps. In a final meeting 2 August 2001, State Department negotiator, Christia Rocca, threatened the Taliban, "...either accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we will bury you under a carpet of bombs." Five weeks before the second 911 Bush informed India and Pakistan that the U.S. would begin military operations in Afghanistan.
The invasion was planned before the destruction of the twin towers and the overthrow of the rightful government of Afghanistan had more to do with a pipeline rightofway and less to do with improveing the lot of the Afgnais.
Canada is fighting as an arm of the U.S. foreign policy and its mission is to paficy the South for the pipeline rightofway.
Jack Layton is the only Canadian politicion to see the immorality of that and the only one with the backbone to stand and say it is wrong. | |
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NateC
| Joined: 4/10/2006 Msg: 38 | |
| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 3:25:24 PM | "how do you think,we should deal with terrorist groups trying to hijack the democratic process through fear? "
The French general Louis-Jonseph Montcalm I believe said it best regarding another sovereign trying to bully you:
"I will deliver my answer from the mouth of my cannon".
Dialogue isn't going to solve the problem here because the Taliban is unfortunately a theocracy, and one of almost pure fanatacism. They follow a perverted version of Islam and try to force it.
On the flip-side of that argument, they can't be bullied, either. The only way to deal with an immovable object is to destroy it. However, no one in the west is morally or ethically prepared to do such a thing.
So we need to make a choice - we can start tracking down and annihilating their leaders, or we leave. Plain and simple. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 3:42:01 PM | Might isn't right. We don't know for certain who murdered those aid workers and who wrote the letter. It could have been the Taliban or, since Canadian support for the mission is lukewarm, it could have been a U.S. black op. There was an article in the Globe and Mail not to long ago about two Afghani Nullahs who were murdered in front of their families in a village outside of Khandaharand the Canadians reported that all that was out and about that night was a U.S. death squad.
Canadians would never back down from a threat. Its, "lets drop the gloves and see who threatens who" time. Propagandists know this. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 4:03:03 PM |
There are enough similarities the comparison is apropos. I don't expect you to see that, given your mindset. Rest assured however, that people with far more experience in these sorts of things do see it and have been concerned about it, and are looking into it - I reference the RCMP and CSIS to name two, so we won't have to worry that anyone in our government with a similar mindset to yours is missing anything we might need to know about.
Flame baiting aside, one major difference is that we've not in fact been hit by a terrorist attack to effect out ellections, we've just been threatened by the Taliban, who are already doing their best to hit us as hard as they can in Afghanistan.
So once again, the comparison is rediculous.
You usually don't miss the point, but you certainly did here. FACT: terrorists have demonstrated that they will use terror to affect elections. FACT: they have made threats towards Canada.
this actually doesn't have anything to do with what you just quoted, Canada is not a significant route for terrorists to enter the USA. Also, while I'm not saying it will never happen, as far as I know we've never had a muslim terrorist strike on domestic soil. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 4:13:52 PM | Back to the original post:
The taliban have released a statement,about canadian elections,declaring that our next choice of government,could result in more deaths for canadians
1. Is this a threat or are they stating that the choice of government we vote in will determine how long we stay and fight in Afghanistan?
2. If it is a threat, which government do these terrorists suggest we elect? The liberals and conservatives have both stated that they will remove troops in 2011, regardless of whether anyone here or elsewhere agrees that that is the correct strategy. Therefore, are these terrorists seriously suggesting that we vote in an NDP government? If that is, in fact, the case, then they obviously know very little about Canadian politics and are probably just blowing hot air. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 6:09:39 PM |
Why is Canada at war with Afghanistan? What is the mission?
Ostensibly the reason for the invasion was to capture Osama Bin Laden, the unproven perpetrator of the second 911. That's no really true. We're there as an ally of the US, that's true. And yes, part of the mission was to capture Osama Bin Laden. The deeper motivation behind it though was the fact that Taliban refused to comply with our demands that they hand over known terrorists. Well, we can speak about national sovereignty and the like but that all goes out the window when you safeguard known terrorists. It would be like your neighbour expecting you to respect the property line despite the fact that his house-guest has tried and is trying to kill you and your family.
So was Al-Qaida actually operating out of Afghanistan when we went there ? Don't know. Probably. The important thing was that the Taliban basically said they would harbour the group if they came a knockin'. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 7:33:46 PM | Actually the Taliban offered to turn Bin Laden over to a neutral country for trial if evidence was prsesented . No evidence was presented and to this day the FBI says they have none. But as I pointed out Canada is fighting an immoral and unjust war as an arm of the U.S. Canada was duped by the lies of the Neocons.
Read: The Salvadore Option, Death Squad Massacres Become a Reality. it can be found here on POF. It describes the black ops developed in Viet Nam , carried over to El Salvadore and now used in Iraq. it is not a stretch of the imagination that it is used in Afghanistan as the report carried by the Globe and Mail demonstrates. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 7:50:25 PM |
If it is a threat, which government do these terrorists suggest we elect? The NDP are probably the party most favoured by the Taliban. An NDP government would pull the troops out of Afghanistan in a heartbeat and would probably disband or severely cripple the military if given the chance. The Liberals would be their second choice; the party is less pacifistic but more politically viable than the NDP. The Liberals would probably scale back direct support to security in Afghanistan, and they have a record of neglecting the military. Mainly, I think that the Taliban is opposed to the Conservatives, the party most likely to stand up to terrorism. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 8:47:12 PM | if harper was to stand up to terrorism he would have to stand up to Bush and the Neocons, the biggest terorists in the world, not get into lockstep with them.
The people fighting the invaders are no more terrorist than anyone in any country fighting invaders. for the most part they are Pashtun, hilbillys with little or no knowledge of world events. All they know is their country is invaded and they must drive off the invaders.
The U.S. and its acolytes didn't destroy the Afghanistan government for altruistic reasons. They went to install a puppet government compliant to the needs of big oil. Karzai is an employee of UNOCAL, the first embassador to Afghanistan was Maresca, am other employee of UNOCAL. Harper is just a tool, a straussian true believer. Jack Layton is the only politician with the cajones to stand up and denounce this immoral war. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/14/2008 9:12:24 PM | Okay bring the troops home but that would let the bad guys win. The Canadian Force are there building school, and educating the people, so that they have hope. People with hope won’t blow themselves up. The brave members of our forces know what they sign up for. So everyone go and vote like you would normally, and DO NOT let the bad guys win.
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS FOREVER | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/15/2008 1:35:03 AM |
The NDP are probably the party most favoured by the Taliban. An NDP government would pull the troops out of Afghanistan in a heartbeat and would probably disband or severely cripple the military if given the chance.
He he he "disband the military" where the hell do you get this shit?
The Liberals would be their second choice; the party is less pacifistic but more politically viable than the NDP. The Liberals would probably scale back direct support to security in Afghanistan, and they have a record of neglecting the military. Mainly, I think that the Taliban is opposed to the Conservatives, the party most likely to stand up to terrorism.
Considering the liberals were the one who authorized the invasion in the first place, I'm not sure you could call them "soft on terror".
Amusingly enough Conservative domestic policies are probably the most similar to the Taliban belief systems, Harper and the Muslim Fundamentalists both believe the world was only made in a week, and that homosexuality is a bad thing after all. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/15/2008 2:15:32 AM | I still suspect that these guys are just spouting propaganda. They claim that they have been targeting Canadians more in Kandahar because of the election, but they have no idea what our parties stand for. The only person they know is Stephen Harper, presumably because he's in power. Have a look at this story:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080909/taliban_canadian_election_/20080909?hub=TopStories
Here's an excerpt:
Yussef said he's familiar with Prime Minister Stephen Harper but isn't sure about the other candidates or parties running in the Canadian election.
While he doesn't know which party is most likely to withdraw Canadian troops from Afghanistan, Yussef said such a platform will be "good for that party and for their nation and for the Canadian people."
In my opinion, we should just ignore them, which, in my opinion, Canadians will do anyway, since all signs point toward the mission in Afghanistan not being an election issue, rightly or wrongly. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/15/2008 5:38:52 AM |
Considering the liberals were the one who authorized the invasion in the first place, Considering the liberals were the ones used canceled the new Choppers to replace the Sea Kings. The contract was a done deal before the election and the Liberals ran on it in the campaign. How many Millions did Canadians have to shell out for the canceled contract?
The Liberals have done very little in the way of keeping our Military up to date. | |
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| taliban and canadian elections Posted: 9/15/2008 9:24:06 AM | You usually don't miss the point, but you certainly did here. FACT: terrorists have demonstrated that they will use terror to affect elections. FACT: they have made threats towards Canada. Obvious Conclusion: We take appropriate steps to protect ourselves, including looking at the experiences of other countries - such as Spain. Maybe you don't understand what every Boy Scout does: Be Prepared. It makes a kind of sense, don't you think? ----------------------------------------------- boy scout>? do u mean bush scouts? isnt there mantra ," murder everyone that way they cant scare us cmon gime a break the only terrorists ive seen are the ones pushing the price of fuel thru the roof, oh wait those are the yanks, the only terrorists are the ones that attacked and commited genocide on an entire religious group based upon false intelligence and made up events and fraudulent abuse of the so called democratic process. maybe you should all just sit in your cribs and wait for adults to handle the situations that arise ,rather than donning your schoolyard bully wear and going out into public and spreading your hate propaganda against people who have been terrorized by the USA for decades. if anyone is affecting candian election with terrorism and other forms of manipulation its the terrorists south of canada, not the ones on the other side of the globe | |
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