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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 3:18:42 PM | I don't doubt that you worked your buns off and that you deserve your award. No one should diminish that achievement.
I agree that Grandma and many others of us have worked very hard in order to achieve equal treatment in the work force that men have taken for granted for so long however, I do take offense when someone blatantly calls me a "feminist" (and a creepy cat lady) simply because I take in rescue animals or refuse to conform to a gender role that went out with the Flintstones. I've been told that I'm an "over achiever" coupled with the term " feminist" simply because I've made some hard, smart choices in my life and have had to step on a few male toes in order to do so, but of course I was always accused of "sleeping my way" to the top. Pfft! That is so far from the truth. I've always known that people that spew that kind of crap are the same ones that never had the courage to climb that ladder in the first place. Any woman that has had to endure the blood, sweat and tears in a profession that was referred to as "a man's job" should be saluted. We've always deserved the same salary, benefits and respect based on merit alone. I'm so, so tired of being "labeled" a feminist simply because I don't need a man to complete my life. *sigh* Just a gift certificate from "Petsmart" this Christmas would make me happy due to this sluggish economy. LOL
It is also wrong for people to inflame others by saying hateful things about the other gender.
I also agree with this statement. I've done it in the past and it's wrong. Not everyone is going to agree with me but my post's are based on my personal experiences and mine alone. All of our differing opinions are important to us and should be respected without sending "hate mail" to someone that disagreed with you on a forum.
Well dang!! If I didn't get any hate mail then my inbox would be empty nowadays..just scratch that last sentence in the upper paragraph. *wink*
Sans | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 4:03:19 PM | I've been reading up on Andrea Dworkin... (yeah, I said I'm a feminist but I've never heard of her... don't faint or anything). You folks DO realize she is dead, don't you? And that the majority of her writing was in the 1970's and in response to issues around sexuality and rape? I'm not condoning what she said but I am saying that 30 years is a long time to be beefing about what she said. I don't recall hearing her name in passing when I talked with other feminists, so I don't know how significant her writings are on today's "feminists." I know they don't impact me because I haven't read them.  I think you must consider the time and place when you quote someone and not take their words (as hateful as they are) out of context.
San... I'd buy you a brewski too - for being progressive (notice I didn't say the F word) and for taking care of the little critters too... :) | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 5:26:17 PM |
How does those statements say that I am painting men as the enemy? I'm pointing out that you folks set the rules and we are playing by the game. If we viewed men as the "enemy," why are we playing by your rules? I have already said that some women do take advantage of the system, just like some men - it isn't a gender thing it is a HUMAN CONDITION thing. Some people have less ethics than others and they abuse the freedoms that are supposed to be for all people.
What "crutches" are you speaking of? I didn't mention any.
In directing back with "we're only playing by your rules". When infact feminists do not play by ANY rules. They will ally themselves with actual misogynists to further their goals. If feminists wanted to play by the rules female fire-fighter candidates would be required to haul the same 200LB dummy up the same set of stairs as the guys in a timed firemans' carry test.
Lurtle, Neaptide if I sounded harsh it was only because of strong disagreement and the assumption that neither of you are some delicate wilting flower. And it looks like that guess was correct and nobody is too ticked about it. And that would be equality, to be equal there has to be acceptance of both the good and bad.
There are tons of other vile feminist authors to read Neaptide, and they will turn your stomache. Like it or not feminist organisations have been shaped by these authors and their hatred. But did you read that Dworkin "claims" to have been raped? Now read her own DEFINITION of rape..... See a problem? She could well have engaged in consensual sex then later decided her lesbian lover might not be very understanding of the cheating aspect so charged the guy with rape. And today thanks you her view and feminists lobbying for laws to allow this it is today a very real possibility for any guy out there.
Someone will correct me if my memory is faulty but I also believe Dworkin was the same one claiming "we need to start raising our little boys to be more like girls". Modern feminists aren't stupid they hide their intent a bit better than predecessors but not by much. If you refer to the "closed" thread you will find tons of examples of faulty feminist doctorine.
I agree that Grandma and many others of us have worked very hard in order to achieve equal treatment in the work force that men have taken for granted for so long however, I do take offense when someone blatantly calls me a "feminist" (and a creepy cat lady)
Umm, yet you discount that the men in those jobs also worked hard at them, or took it for granted? Also I did not use "creepy" at all, and you had left out the "animal rescue" aspect. Admit it, anyone with 81 pet cats is a bit of an oddball by almost everyones standards, temporary shelter or rehabilitation could be a different matter though.
Seriously I have picked up tone of posting that elevated women while deriding men or their accomplishments.
I've been told that I'm an "over achiever" coupled with the term " feminist" simply because I've made some hard, smart choices in my life and have had to step on a few male toes in order to do so, but of course I was always accused of "sleeping my way" to the top.
So you didn't find as GrandmaBooBoo did that MORE women were exhibiting this crass behaviour? From what I've seen in the workplace and elsewhere women tend to be by far much more catty, actually most guys acting like that will be rode hard by all the other guys for such behaviour. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 6:00:37 PM | Umm, yet you discount that the men in those jobs also worked hard at them, or took it for granted? Also I did not use "creepy" at all, and you had left out the "animal rescue" aspect. Admit it, anyone with 81 pet cats is a bit of an oddball by almost everyones standards, temporary shelter or rehabilitation could be a different matter though.
Seriously I have picked up tone of posting that elevated women while deriding men or their accomplishment
Dude, don't twist my words around..as many men try to do. I said "many other's" and wasn't gender specific, now was I? If I take in 81 cats, 81 lizards or 81 snakes then what's the damn difference? I take in any animal or reptile that has been abused, neglected or needs a safe home including baby alligators. You made a deragoratory remark in one of your post's about the fact that I rescue cats and immediately called me "the cat lady". Ya know what, dude...I know men like you...I actually met a guy on here just like you. You've never had to take care of a pet or a plant in your entire life because if that pet (or plant) took any attention away from you, then you just simply couldn't be bothered, because it was all about you all along. Bullshit.
I believe an apology is in order now, dude. Man up, or can you?
I don't discount all men. I discount men that have belittled me in the past, talked down to me and have tried to make me feel as if I'm not "worth" making the same salary as they can when I'm more trained as a woman for a "man's job" than they'll ever be..and you can take that to the bank, my friend.
I've worked my ass off to land on a barrier island in Florida drinking Mai Tai's daily and lazing on my hammock 24/7 while walking on the beach at my leisure. Are you doing the same my friend?? ....hmmmm..thought not.
Sans | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 6:34:26 PM | ^^
Hmm.. maybe I'm old-school, but usually when a word is in quotes it's somehow NOT REAL.. meaning-wise. I've been going along this whole time thinking that anyone using "Feminist" and Feminist were using them 2 different ways.
That's the other use for quotes beyond quoting someone's words. See below:
Either of a pair of punctuation marks used primarily to mark the beginning and end of a passage attributed to another and repeated word for word, but also to indicate meanings or glosses and to indicate the unusual or dubious status of a word.
"Feminists" of 2008 don't care about those who came before.....or those who will come after....and have to fight the same fights OVER again.....because they've destroyed all the gains made before them.
Extremely good point.
I dont know what women you deal with, but I have very rarely run into anyone like you describe in my day to day dealings.
I deal with those same comments myself.. from other women and I am in a flied that is RIFE with women. Freaking accounting. And when I tried my hand at programming, I got it even worse. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 8:06:38 PM |
When ya'll get done bashing "feminists," please wake me up.... I'd like to talk but what's the point when everyone is shouting?
Well, let's go back and do some counting shall we? Since the inception of this thread, I have been called the following:
Idiot
Neurotic
Rude
Disrespectful
Manic
Molested
Uneducated
Naive
Disgusting
Contemptful
Dillusional
Have I missed any???
I deal with those same comments myself.. from other women and I am in a flied that is RIFE with women. Freaking accounting. And when I tried my hand at programming, I got it even worse.
Now, in my work life... by "feminists" a slut, whore, stupid, suck up, bad mother, bad wife, bad friend, inconsiderate, trying to make sure that all women were raped regularly, trying to promote child abuse, trying to make women die from coathanger abortions, arrogant, greedy....I'm quite sure there were more....but hey...over 35 years you do tend to forget some things!
LOL! I kinda let those things slide because....2 things that no one has ever called me is "lazy" or "irresponsible".
AND PLEASE NOTE that I am NOT airing PERSONAL issues....but I can only speak for what I have first hand knowledge of. In a court of law I can ONLY speak about what I have PERSONALLY witnessed:
Let's see..."Feminists" call me those things because:
Even though I was not allowed to persue "male only" classes in high school, I went to adult education at night to take what I had not been allowed to take as a teenager.
I took math and physics refresher classes to obtain the best possible score to get into a training program which had been "closed off to women"
I worked 70-90 hrs a week
I supported a husband and allowed him to return to college to persue his own degree
I reared 4 children and 2 foster children
I was actively involved in Junior Achievement as a company advisor
I was involved in a mentoring program of "young women" through the YWCA
I persued my own degree while working full time by taking 2 classes per term and held a 3.64 GPA
My children all knew how to use a measuring cup and sew on a button (most of their friends who's mothers were "full time mothers" and "feminists" did NOT have these simple skills)
I mowed the lawn (1 acre) My hubby did the trimming
I shoveled the 70' long driveway in the winter so hubby wouldn't have a heart attack right up until I bought myself a snowblower, then suddenly it was "his job"!!! LOL!
I rode my own motorcycle
I stained our entire house (2700 sq. ft) (he cleaned up the rollers and brushes each day when I was done)
Ohhhhh, dare I mention this....but I WEAR 5" HEELS and dresses when I go out with a man. (LOL!!! That one is just for you Sanchele!)
Can someone enlighten us about WHY "feminists" have SUCH a problem with this lil ole granny??? (and anyone else like me)
ONLY one thought comes to my mind....and that is...that they (feminists) NEVER really wanted what they SAID they wanted. What I have heard are complaints and criticisms that "If YOU do this, they're going to expect ALL of us to do it!" To them I say....TOUGH! What paranoid and insecure thinking!
When I gave birth to my first child, "LaMaze" (natural childbirth without ansethesia) was still totally unheard of. I selected a very progressive doctor...the ONLY one in town who WOULD deliver my child naturally. I had to travel 65 miles to take LaMaze classes, they were NOT offered where I lived. I had to FIGHT with female nurses who badgered, criticized and ridiculed me for endangering my child with such radical behavior. 2 hrs after I delivered my daughter, I felt GREAT!!!! I just wanted to stand at the nursery window and adore my beautiful redheaded baby girl! What I was TOLD, by female nurses was...that I was making their job TOO difficult. My roommate, who had had a saddle block 3 days previously thought that because I felt great...that SHE had to follow me...and she passed out in the hallway. What female nurses saw as the solution to THIER problem was....to force me into bed where I was to pretend that I was dieing just to make their lives easier. One call to my MALE doctor got that straightened out....the dealt with the REAL problem...which wasn't me!
When I was young and insecure and uncertain that I really had what it took to "survive" without a man propping me up....I TOO did and said some really stupid things! Off the top of my mind, I remember 2 T-shirts that I used to "proudly" wear. One said...."A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle"! WOW...I loved that one! The other said..."A woman has to work twice as hard as a man to prove she's 1/2 as good. Fortunately it isn't difficult!" I GREW UP!!!!!
When I walked about 10 miles in HIS steel toed work boots, I came to some really startling revelations. Men love their wifes and their children. They care about society, ecology, the future of humanity...and forgive me for letting it out of the bag...but a lot of them even like CATS!
Today's "feminists" call men horrible names, they're rude, disrespectful ONLY because of gender....they don't have a clue whether a particular man has ever been disrespectful to women...they don't care! They know that he's a male....and therefore....he must be evil! And if he hasn't done anything bad yet....just give him time!!!
While looking for election t-shirts this afternoon...I ran across a "feminist" slogan. You had your choice of gun...Glock, AK-47, Uzi..I'm not sure what they all were....but the lettering read "The ULTIMATE Feminine Protection". There were also many different sillouette styles....ALL depicting the little bathroom symbols for "boys" and "girls". In every one....the sillouette with the dress on....was shooting the one wearing pants in the head!!! How long do you think a website would be online if that were the other way around????
Message # 119:
Feminism itself is NOT the problem, but many of it's "followers" sure are. They spew so much hate and idiocy that it's very revolting to hear them describe themselves as feminists. These fanatics twist something good into something pretty evil and nasty. Take out the TRASH ladies! Until you do, the whole movement is rotten to the core. Don't sit around and TALK about it...DO IT! IF you believe in "equality" then STAND UP FOR IT...otherwise...sit down and shut up because you're only making fools of yourselves. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 8:20:45 PM | Well, let's go back and do some counting shall we? Since the inception of this thread, I have been called the following:
Idiot
Neurotic
Rude
Disrespectful
Manic
Molested
Uneducated
Naive
Disgusting
Contemptful
Dillusional
Have I missed any???
Yes, you did miss one, grandma. I'm called a "Royal Bit*h" on a daily basis by anyone on the island that happens to have the "pleasure" of running into me (and wish to hell that they hadn't..lol) I've worked long and hard to achieve that title and I wear it daily as a badge of honor...I may look as cute as a kitten, but I'm deadlier than a King cobra when provoked or when I'm unjustly called a "feminist" or any other ridiculous label simply because I can take care of myself and don't need a "man's help" for..welp..anything. LOL
Sans | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 8:26:17 PM |
There are tons of other vile feminist authors to read Neaptide, and they will turn your stomache. Yes, Loony, I agree - but are they the only people ever to say anything vile about the opposite sex? I'm sure I could find equally vitrole discourse from men about women, so what are we going to acheive by listing all the bad things that strangers to you and me have said about the opposite sex? Where do we go from here - do we just continue to antagonize and alienate each other or do we try to find common ground?
If we are just going to snipe at each other, what chance do we have of finding common ground? Can women be catty? Yes. Can men be insensitive? Yes. Does this mean we should assume that all women are catty and all men are insensitive? No. We are individuals and we should treat each other with respect and courtesy.
I am always pleased when a man opens a door for me or holds the elevator and I always say thank you. In turn, I have held my fair share of doors and elevators if the opportunity arises. It makes me smile to see the guys go all coy and smile. There is no law that says we can't be nice to each other. Common courtesy goes a long way in this tense world.
I think to attack one group and say "all {fill in the blank} act this way," is missing an opportunity to look at the bigger picture. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 8:35:41 PM |
Lurtle, Neaptide if I sounded harsh it was only because of strong disagreement and the assumption that neither of you are some delicate wilting flower. And it looks like that guess was correct and nobody is too ticked about it. And that would be equality, to be equal there has to be acceptance of both the good and bad. Loony...I apologize again...I read the post as being against women and the hackles went up!
I can't fault you for feeling like you were being attacked, as a man, as well.
...have had to step on a few male toes in order to do so Now, I don't know Sanchele's personal story here, but I've known so many women who, when they get a promotion or when they achieve something, it's almost as if they feel obligated to state that it was at the expense of men.
Why is that?
Why can't you just say "I did it".
Why have to say that you brought someone else down along the way? We have to let "the sisterhood" know that we might have damaged a man while we were achieving something that we may well have deserved.
To me, it seems as if this is a way of apologizing to other women for having become successful.
of course I was always accused of "sleeping my way" to the top. I've been accused of that, too...but it was women saying it. Women are threatened by other women who, as Grandmabooboo pointed out, don't keep up with the status quo. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 8:43:40 PM |
Yes, you did miss one, grandma. I'm called a "Royal Bit*h" You've missed the entire point Sanchele.....I've been called these things NOT by men...but by "feminists" like yourself! | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 8:45:27 PM | "Can someone enlighten us about WHY 'feminists' have SUCH a problem with this ole granny??? (and anyone else like me)"
You fail to recognize your crime: never played the victimhood card, regardless the challenges. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 9:03:59 PM | Can someone enlighten us about WHY 'feminists' have SUCH a problem with this ole granny??? (and anyone else like me)" Hmmm... maybe because you are so busy explaining why you are so much better than the rest of us? I see you picked up on my one post but not my other - so much for trying to give you some accolades, granny.
As long as everyone here just wants to beat on the breast and claim that he/she and he/she alone knows what it is like to TRULY suffer, there will be no common ground. We need to see the commonality within all of us. Again, I have seen more anger and hatred in this thread being directed at women, much of it from women, to women - that is just twisted and I am amazed at the capacity of humans to hate total strangers and make blanket assumptions about groups of people in general.
Women are not the enemy, neither are men. The only enemy is the negative little bugger inside your body that makes you unable to see the universal human in all people. We all have our stories to tell - how we were wronged by society, how we prevailed, how we lost, whatever your story is, it is no less or more than the person next to you.
I say peace joy and prosperty to you all. I bless you all with brewskis  and big fat kisses  It is wrong for any person to degrade another person for whatever reason but if we cannot lay down our anger, we will not be able to move forward. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 9:43:21 PM | Women are not the enemy,
I think it's been fairly easily agreed upon that people realize that not all women are "angry" feminists.
neither are men. You should work on convincing your angry counterparts of that.
Again, I have seen more anger and hatred in this thread being directed at women, much of it from women, to women I haven't seen "hatred". I've seen passionate debate, some silly comments, some disagreements..."hatred"? No.
You want hatred?
How about this (from page 3 of this thread):
"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig" .- Andrea Dworkin
"All men are rapists and that's all they are" .- Marilyn French
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violance perpetrated against women" .- Catherine MacKinnon
THAT is hatred.
(That Catherine MacKinnon must be a real ball in the sack...totally unintentional play on words there!)
As for us women who don't like the feminist agenda, we have a very good reason. The angry feminists make us ALL look bad. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 9:52:05 PM |
Hmmm... maybe because you are so busy explaining why you are so much better than the rest of us? Nope, never said, never implied, never even entered my mind, nor have I seen where it has entered the mind of the other several women posting here who seemingly agree that they have been MORE discriminated against and oppressed by women than they have been by men.
One comment early on stated: "I see it was only a rhetorical question"...meaning, that feminists don't REALLY want an answer to the question: "what's up with all the hatred toward feminists?"
In every instance where someone has attempted to innumerate the reasons...it's dismissed by "feminists" as "bragging, upstaging, breast beating, etc. It certainly leaves one wondering whether an answer was truly wanted or if the question was asked ONLY for the purpose of setting the stage for some free advertising of a political agenda which seems to be lacking popularity in this particular venue.
We all have our stories to tell - how we were wronged by society, how we prevailed, how we lost, whatever your story is, it is no less or more than the person next to you. I AGREE! We all do! MEN TOO! Can we at least agree that men are ALSO "humans"? That's at least a first step. NOW...can we agree that men deserve equal rights under the law? Ahhhh, see there...that's where we part ways with the "feminist theory".
As I peruse the many posts....I see very few instances of the "feminist" antagonists who have resorted to personal attack or name calling....yet MOST of the pro "feminists" have done so in one or more posts.
To discuss an issue rationally and come to "common ground" we have to set aside emotional agrument and discuss the FACTS....NOT how someone "feels". "Feelings" are intangible, unquantifiable things that defy meaningful discussion. We MUST stick to FACTS.
Can you give us factual examples of where YOU yourself have been oppressed, discriminated against or harmed by men? We don't want to hear about what happend 200 years ago!!!! That is called 2nd hand information and is inadmissable in a court of law. If you want common ground and understanding...then present CURRENT facts.
Again, I have seen more anger and hatred in this thread being directed at women, much of it from women, to women Well Glory Hallallulah!!!!! She sees the light!!!! This is what we've been saying all along!!!! The PROBLEM doesn't even involve MEN.....it's TOTALLY a women against woman issue!!!! | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/8/2008 11:08:33 PM | Neaptide,
Well that's the point that men are trying to make today.
Do you know why I pay more for my car insurance ? Because I'm a male. Not because I'm a poor driver (I'm not) , not because I've proven myself to be a hazard to other drivers but simply because I'm a male.
In another thread we discussed "Ladies Nights". Now honestly, I don't really care what a business owner wants to do with his or her own establishment. Really, I don't and this is no exception. However, when it's all said and done, why do women get in free and maybe get a free drink or two while I pay full price ? Sure, there's a reason (although I don't really believe it's valid anymore) but where is the quid pro quo ? There is none. That's fine I guess and really, this is a pretty minor thing that, by itself, doesn't really bother me. It's indicative though of the blatant double standard (a reversal if you will) that has arisen in lockstep with "equal rights".
This one is one of my favorites . In my city two girls took their high school to the human rights commission because the administration wouldn't allow them to play on the boy's hockey team. Apparently it was discriminatory to not allow them to play with the boys. Well it would be except for two things : 1) There was a girl's hockey team. 2)The boys weren't allowed to play on the girl's hockey team. At no point did anybody ask the question "Okay...so if these two girls get to play on the boys hockey team but boys aren't allowed to play on the girl's hockey team, then isn't that essentially discrimination ? Why do two boys miss out on an opportunity so that two girls can have extra opportunity ? ". Naturally the two girls won and were even awarded $4,000 bucks apiece for "pain and suffering" or whatever it was called. However, it sets a precedent that says "It's okay to short-change boys as long as it's for a politically correct cause." Not that the rights commission's ruling was unexpected...common sense doesn't apply in their world so of course they'd view this as girls missing out on opportunities due to discrimination. Somebody mentioned Title IX earlier and this is basically the same philosophy at work in Canada.
Let's see here, what else ? When women commit the same crime as men do, they're generally viewed as victims in some fashion. As a result of this perception, they get lighter sentances. Yet, for some reason, if you listen to what groups like NOW have to say , you'd think that women were being locked up and having the key thrown away for the pettiest of crimes. Of course, there's no point in going over the bias in custody disputes or family courts again.
In education, there's been a defiinite , well-documented, and readily admitted shift to make learning more friendly to girls. Nothing wrong with that really although frankly, I don't see why it's assumed that girls can't learn the same way that boys do. They most definitely can and that , again, is borne out in the statistics. The result of some of these changes though has been a marked drop in keeping boys interested in academic pursuits. The problem essentially is that in making education more "girl friendly" they made it more "boy unfriendly". The treatment of courses aside, I can't remember how many times I had to sit through "gender studies" classes in high school. What a misnomer. It was basically a load of propaganda straight off the NOW presses. There was no discussion to speak of and there certainly wasn't anything in the course that lead me to believe that we were discussing both sexes. It was really the precursor to a womens' studies course in university. They'd basically sit there telling us all about how bad men were and how oppressed women were. Of course it was all done in the name of understanding and sharing but really, there was never any discussion at all about problems boys or men might face. It was as though there was no such possibility in fact. The message was clear straight from the beginning : men bad , women good. They'd sit there trotting out as fact what have since turned out to be prevarications of the radical feminst movement. I have no idea if the political rhetoric has been toned down since I was in high-school but at that time it was definitely part of the curriculum. It was basically radical feminism worming its way into the classroom. After all, guess who came up with these course outlines and the subject matter to be covered ? Where did they turn for their greatest source of data ? Thanks to life experience, I already knew it was a crock of crap but for those who didn't know any better , it was eaten up. It's not like they ever got both sides of the story after all.
And sure, let's talk about the workplace. As the evidence keeps on coming in telling us what we've suspected for a while now, women make just as much as men do. Despite this, we keep on hearing about how there's a wage gap. It's simply taken for granted that women are discriminated against. Never mind that this flies in the face of common sense (if you owned a business, would you hire any men when women could do the same work for less money ?) Everybody simply believes that women are paid less and it's because of discrimination. Well it turns out that no, actually women get paid just as much as men do and when they don't the reason is because women set different priorities. If a woman takes maternity leave I think it's fair that she should be provided with certain benefits which include making sure she has a job waiting for her when she's ready to come back. That time spent away from work isn't considered part of her work history though...she wasn't working so why would she accrue hours towards a raise ? Sure she was busy but not at a company of any kind. This is the kind of thing that was never factored in to "wage gap studies" before and as a result of this, there are myriad programs set up to encourage businesses to change their evil , patriarchal ways. Everything from sensitivity classes (meant for the men really, let's face it) and zero-tolerance policies (designed specifically with women in mind) to more "woman friendly" job titles and awards for "diversity in the workplace".
Okay, fine...so what about the men ? Well men continue to take up less space in universities (roughly %40 and dropping) , take up more space in prisons (approximately %90 to %95) , achieve lower and lower scores in primary and secondary schools, make up %90 of the homeless population, lose custody of their children simply by default %90 of the time, are murdered and victimized at a rate that dwarfs that of women in all categories save sexual assault, are portrayed as buffoons and lazy ne'er do wells in the media (show me a commercial where a man gets hit and you'll show me a funny ad. Show me a commercial where a woman gets hit and we're watching violence against women in action) , are all perceived as deadbeats when a sizeable percentage don't pay support on time (statistically , women are greater deadbeats in this regard) , are assumed to be a greater threat to children (do I really need to rehash the stats on who commits the majority of child abuse ?) , are the majority of drug abusers and alcoholics, have life spans at least %7 shorter than women (although the gap seems to be narrowing) , make up over %90 of workplace fatalities , commit suicide at a rate three times greater than that of women, and the list goes on.
All this while we're all told how women are the ones suffering and how we , as men, are privileged and have it easy. We're labelled as oppressors , victimizers, insensitive, and sex-crazed potential rapists just waiting for the right time to strike. Who says this ? Well certainly not the average woman on the street. No, it's the radical element of feminism. And they are the ones acting as feminism's mouthpiece. They are the ones the government listens to because no sizeable and moderate group exists to speak for feminists or even women in general. Sure, there are other feminist groups out there but when they don't toe the line according to groups like NOW they are "disbarred" from the sisterhood. Go to any univserity campus and it won't take long to find what basically amounts to an indoctrination vehicle disguised as a womens' group. Moderates are not allowed in there...dissenters are immediately classified as the enemy. Just as bad if not worse than the men they might be trying to defend. Ironic really. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/9/2008 6:19:47 AM |
AGREE! We all do! MEN TOO! Can we at least agree that men are ALSO "humans"? That's at least a first step. NOW...can we agree that men deserve equal rights under the law? Ahhhh, see there...that's where we part ways with the "feminist theory". Granny, I am a feminist. I have not said once in these threads that men are not human nor that they do not deserve equal rights.
I have not descriminated against men because of their gender. I was even responsible for the hiring of a male in a fairly exclusive female job category at one office and personally mentored him when other people were looking for ways to snipe at him. Personally, I didn't really like him that much. Professionally, he had just as much a right to that job as anyone else. I stood up for him. And to me, that is the meaning of feminism.
Lurtle - Granny: I understand that you have a different interpretation of feminism and I have listened. I wish that you would extend the same courtesy to me. You have some objectified view of what feminists are and what I am trying to tell you is that just as we cannot say "all men are this..." and "all women are that...," we cannot say "all feminists are this...." Understand? There is a breed of feminist out there - male included - that HAS been about equality of the sexes - nothing more, nothing less. Maybe we haven't written big books saying hate, hate hate - bad, bad, bad - but that's because we are out there making the changes in the world in which we live and with the people we see on a daily basis.
Gotta - I'm digesting what you said and need time to let it settle. In the meantime, I want to tell you I always thought the "comical" groin shots are in poor taste and it is tiresome when they go to the "dumb old dad" schtick in movies, tv and commercials. So, I do see the double standards (one place where I worked briefly let women put up calendars of very scantily clad men - I was amazed. If you flipped it and put women in those pictures, there would have been a stampede to the HR office.) I chalk it up to women who feel insecure about their newfound power so they have to make sure of it by being outrageous. I do think things are changing. More women (myself included) finding the double standards offensive and with more men pointing them out, we will be able to move towards a more equal state.
There is a new breed of feminist out there and so it would be refreshing if people took a second look and maybe tried to find a productive way to shelf their hostility and work towards the center. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/9/2008 9:02:08 AM | | And now that I have had a chance to think about it, I don't think it is a new breed of feminist - it has been here all along - it was how I was raised and my brother was raised and how our parents were raised, and so on and so on. Maybe we just haven't been noticed because our society loves a train wreck and where's the sensationalism when people play fair? But we are here and we are operating to make this a more equal society - without anger, without petty name-calling and without stepping on anyone's toes. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/9/2008 10:31:12 AM | Gotta, thank you for your calm explanation. I have thought about what you said and I agree there are double-standards but I don’t think the root of all of this is feminism per se. It may have made the situation worse but it is not the cause for all that you have outlined:
INSURANCE:
Do you know why I pay more for my car insurance? Because I'm a male. Not because I'm a poor driver (I'm not) , not because I've proven myself to be a hazard to other drivers but simply because I'm a male.
Okay, I didn’t know that. I checked out a couple of car insurance websites and found out that they are basing that on statistics: “Statistically, men have a higher number of serious accidents; they drive faster, they have more powerful cars that have more expensive parts to replace if they are damaged or stolen, and they get pulled over by the police for driving too fast on a more frequent basis. Research has also shown that men are more easily distracted than women, with their attention being taken from the road while they are driving, so there are plenty of reasons why women's car insurance is cheaper.”
Insurance companies operate on statistics. Men may pay higher car insurance but do you know I pay more for health care because I am a woman? I do. Again, it is just statistics and not related to feminism.
BAR PERKS (a/k/a “Ladies Nights”) - well, honestly, this has more to do with men wanting to score and businesses trying to capitalize on that by drawing in women, than it has to do with feminism. I don’t think this is one of your stronger points so I’m not going to belabor it.
As for your other categories - crimes, sports, child education and child support/custody, workplace issues - these are messed up right now but it is not exclusively the fault of feminists per se that they are mucked up. Have some feminists contributed to the mess, yes. Have some selfish men and women who can only think about their immediate needs abused the system, yes. But finding a bugaboo that you can stick all blame on is not how the situation is going to be fixed. You talk about negative labels, well, there are plenty to go around.
So, where do we go from here? Should we just undo everything - go back to 1917 when women were being bashed on the head and called radicals because they wanted to vote? I don’t even think that is possible. We are here today and we need to fix the problems but they will not get resolved with hate. When you have been the “other,” it is really hard to not take on the same posturing that you were once against once you do have power. That scenario has played out many times in many situations (not just feminism) and has been written about by many better-educated and more eloquent people than me but I can see it happening with some feminists.
Basically it comes down to forgiveness. Men, women both have to be able to forgive each other for past transgressions and truly let go of their anger, otherwise we are caught in a perpetual loop of anger and we will not be able to move forward. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/9/2008 12:34:58 PM |
But we are here and we are operating to make this a more equal society - without anger, without petty name-calling and without stepping on anyone's toes. HEREIN lies one of the problems: From post # 2 people have been answering the question asked by enumerating their reasons, and examples of such, to demonstrate that there are indeed legitimate reasons why...some of us hate "feminism". I find the OPs phrasing to be inflammatory in the first place as it was designed in such a way that ANY answer would be a "wrong" one.
FOR THE RECORD however, allow me to clarify; I do NOT hate "feminists", nor do I hate equality, justice or personal responsibility. I DO hate "modern feminism".
Addressing the statement above: May we ask, in WHAT WAYS are you (feminists) operating to make this a more "equal" society? You keep insisting that we do not allow you to speak, but yet you have been unwilling to offer us any examples of HOW feminists are working to give us an "equal" society. Can you name 3 SPECIFIC ways in which "feminists" are working to provide "equality". I AM sorry, but citing repeatedly what Susan B. Anthony did over 100 years ago is NOT current, our Bill of Rights needs no special watch dog for any ONE particular amendment moreso than any of the others, so "feminism" for the sake of protecting that ONE Constitutional Amendment. I have seen no one deny nor show any disrespect for the contributions of Susan B. Anthony or the sufferagettes, but even if that had occurred, it has nothing to do with why in 2008 the majority of the world dislikes "feminism".
In message #6 you state:
I DO know what the sufferagettes went through to give women a right to vote - they were not called Iron Jawed Maidens for jest. How do you know what the sufferagettes "went through"??? Were you there? Are you claiming to be over 115 years of age??? I would certainly hope not. THEREFORE, a more accurate statement would be that "you have been TOLD what sufferagettes went through". That's great....you wholeheartedly accept what you have been TOLD.
In message #6 you state:
. I also know that there was a time just a little over two generations ago when women could not go into certain university libraries without a note from a man granting permission, or open a bank account. In message #43, I AGREE with you and cite an instance in while I CAN offer 1st hand knowledge and experience of in any court of law.
Also in Message #6 you state:
It was just one generation ago where jobs were listed in the classifed as "Men's" and "Women's. In message #32 I take exception to your condescendingly calling me "sweetie"....as I would take exception to it if a male using it in such a blatently way, clearly intended to show your disdane for women LIKE me....who HAVE done exactly what you SAID in message #6 was "goal of equality".....and I indeed ENTERED into and worked for almost 30 YEARS one of those jobs that HAD been classified as "mens ONLY"!
Here are 2 very SPECIFIC incidents where you SAY that you value the right of "equality" and yet when a woman excercises that equality you take every opportunity to express your animosity, hostility and disrespect toward those women. One would have to assume that you respect only those who struggle and FAIL and resent those who struggle and SUCCEED. I am even personally willing to accept that the reason for that could be that many of us who have "succeeded" are wondering what the rest are still struggling for. (As stated in message #168:
The way WAS paved!!!! It was paved 30 YEARS ago!!!! I know....because I helped to pave it! )
Now here is ANOTHER of the problems that many of us have with "feminism", brought out in message #179
If feminists wanted to play by the rules female fire-fighter candidates would be required to haul the same 200LB dummy up the same set of stairs as the guys in a timed firemans' carry test. Now please save your criticisms that I'm bragging.....I am NOT....I'm simply stating the FACTS!!! Within 1 year AFTER I entered the construction trades, the entrance tests started being "weighted". The reason being, that without the "handicap", women were NOT able to pass the entrance tests. YES, 2 women (myself and 1 other) DID pass WITHOUT the "handicap" BUT, the law REQUIRED that a minimum of 20% of "new hires" had to be from a "minority", and the FACT was...there just weren't enough of us in a "minority" who could qualify without "cheating".
In SOME areas, I can see where this little extra boost, in the spirit of "righting the wrongs of history" was a necessary thing...on a TEMPORARY basis. But PLEASE....it's been OVER 30 years!!!! That's certainly NOT "temporary"...that's a permanent handicap, for what was to be a temporary situation. But, as Loony mentioned the 200 lb dummy.....Tell me please.....if 2 firemen (1 male, 1 female) go into a burning building to rescue 2 of YOUR loved ones...both of whom weigh over 200 lbs...will you STILL uphold this "permanently temporary" handicap as fair and just? Is a feminists self esteem worth the LIFE of someone you love?
Now some have taken exception to my use use of the term: "Lowering the bar", but the above is a prime example of WHERE we seriously need to start questioning the wisdom of such an act. There may indeed BE a woman who CAN haul that 200 lb dummy...but I am NOT one of them. Therefore, I would NOT accept the responsibility of THAT job....knowing that to do so could someday put another persons life in jeopardy. But lets NOT focus on what we CANNOT do....let's DO the things that we CAN do. I'm also sure that there are many MEN who cannot carry 200 lbs, but I doubt they scream sexual discrimination because of it!
At the SAME time when women were being barred from "male jobs", they were also barred from...what they called back then...Stewardesses (now flight attendents) if they did not meet "height and weight" requirements. Women accepted the logic that yes, the plane can only carry so much weight, and yes, the attendent has to be tall enough to reach the overhead storage, so there wasn't a lot of hoopla about "qualifications". WHY then, is it such a violation of women's rights when she's unable to meet the minimum physical requirements for that is deemed a "man's job"? Exactly...GENDER should have NOTHING to do with it...either the person CAN do the job...or they can't, and discrimination has NOTHING to do with it. Reverse discrimination is STILL discrimination! IF feminists WERE truly against "discrimination in the work place"...then would they NOT be against ALL discrimination in the workplace?
In another thread we discussed "Ladies Nights". Now honestly, I don't really care what a business owner wants to do with his or her own establishment. Really, I don't and this is no exception. However, when it's all said and done, why do women get in free and maybe get a free drink or two while I pay full price ? LOL! I remember that thread! I think I suggested that male wet Tshirt contests would be a plus too! LOL! I agree, I plan to consult with the lady who organized our POF get togethers and see if we can't arrange for a "Men's Night". I can however fill you in on what the bar owner's reasoning is. It is assummed that men drink proportionately more alcohol than women do and that the men would be at the bar whether or not hoards of women showed up. I question the accuracy of those assumptions today however as I would think that more men drink beer...which is generally less expensive than mixed drinks (generally ordered by women). Perhaps the bar owners would consider it with the stipulation...that it wasn't ALL men's drinks 1/2 price...but ALL men's drinks which are purchased by women are 1/2 price. Shaking head....yeah....still, that would appear to be a concession for women. Perhaps someone else can think of viable option?
I have not descriminated against men because of their gender. I was even responsible for the hiring of a male in a fairly exclusive female job category at one office and personally mentored him when other people were looking for ways to snipe at him. Personally, I didn't really like him that much. Professionally, he had just as much a right to that job as anyone else. I stood up for him. And to me, that is the meaning of feminism. I applaud you for that and agree that it IS the meaning of feminism.....at least PART of the meaning. The REST of the meaning is.....to STOP resenting and calling WOMEN names and talking down to us just because WE find and enjoy our employment in "fairly exclusive male job catagories"!!!! Perhaps you have not done that in your 3 dimensional life....but on this thread, you and some others have reinforced our observations that so called "feminists" have been more of a source of criticism and hostility than ANY men have ever been. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/9/2008 1:10:16 PM | Way to hold a gruge, Grandmaboo. You were in full scree before I let loose with my well-delivered "sweetie" which I knew would piss you off. Was I out of line, yes. Apparently, you missed the part where I gave myself a time out and didn't post anything for two or three pages. I guess you also missed my post 150 where I applauded your hard work. Just to clarify, I didn't start this thread. I applaude the OP for starting it and I have tried since my time out to behave and say helpful, healing things.
Thanks for just ripping my posts apart - yes, I traveled through space-time continum in my wayback machine to see first hand the trials the suffragettes went through...  It is well documented - there are sworn affidavits available for public scrutiny - that detail how those women were vilified and abused. If you want to discredit what they did just to make feminism in your mind irrelevant, feel free.
There is just as much propaganda about the "evil modern feminist" as people are claiming the feminists are engaging in and it is funny you can see it on one side but not the other. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/9/2008 1:21:36 PM | Neaptide: The title of the thread is "What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?" A number of us have explained and given reasons why there is so much animosity towards feminism.
I have mentioned throughout my posts that I don't believe that all feminists are the angry type, but you keep neglecting the fact that the angry ones are the ones who are dragging the rest of the feminists and all other women down with them.
It is well documented - there are sworn affidavits available for public scrutiny - that detail how those women were vilified and abused. If you want to discredit what they did just to make feminism in your mind irrelevant, feel free. Weren't you the one who stated a page ago that we shouldn't be bringing up something written in the 70's by someone who's dead?
Basically, the "evil modern feminist" started it. | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/9/2008 2:12:46 PM |
I have mentioned throughout my posts that I don't believe that all feminists are the angry type, but you keep neglecting the fact that the angry ones are the ones who are dragging the rest of the feminists and all other women down with them. Yes, you are correct, angry people will drag down any attempt at healing and/or common ground. This thread is a classic example.
Weren't you the one who stated a page ago that we shouldn't be bringing up something written in the 70's by someone who's dead? There is a difference between referring to documentation to defend a position and quoting the documentation verbatim as something that is happening right now.
You and Grandmaboo can tag team and gang up on me all you want. Give me your best shot. By turning your anger on me, you are just proving my point. Guess it isn't just feminist that feel free to tear down their fellow human beings ... I think maybe someone made a post about that a while back... why is it women attack me because....? Yes... I'm sure we'll all remember... shall I say it for you, MEOW!
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/9/2008 2:21:43 PM |
Way to hold a gruge, Grandmaboo. You were in full scree before I let loose with my well-delivered "sweetie" which I knew would piss you off. Was I out of line, yes. Apparently, you missed the part where I gave myself a time out and didn't post anything for two or three pages. It's truly surprising that you can even walk with the size of that chip you carry on your shoulder.
Yes, apparently I did miss the part where you went for a nap without the benefit of milk and cookies....excuse me....that had NOTHING to do with me....that was due to another person that YOU ripped apart for disagreeing with you! You issued yourself the time out for the argument you had with Gangster Kitty and Cubanguy, so please do not pretend that I was involved in the self inflicted pain you cause yourself by attempting to listen for a moment. The biggest problem we have....and we're STILL having it 8 pages later....is that you STILL REFUSE to tell us what we are disagreeing with! I mean....great....you haven't discriminated against 1 man in your office.
You keep throwing the baby out with the bathwater with these emotional outbrusts, and you need to ADDRESS THE ISSUE....NOT the person.
Now the question has been asked no less than a dozen times.....WHAT does "modern feminism" DO....to promote equality in 2008??? Name ONE house or senate bill that "feminists" sponsor which will promote equality between genders??? Name one service that "feminists" provide which promotes equality between genders????
You see, these are signifigant social issues with real and very signifigant social consequences. They are NOT theoretical and cannot be resolved by talking about them....or by either denying them, or by insisting that surely SOMEONE must be doing something positive! NAME IT!!!! WHAT are they doing to promote equality between genders?
In lieu even of answering THOSE questions....debate and/or explain your statements.
There is just as much propaganda about the "evil modern feminist" as people are claiming the feminists are engaging in and it is funny you can see it on one side but not the other. We're stupid....SHOW US!!!!
Weren't you the one who stated a page ago that we shouldn't be bringing up something written in the 70's by someone who's dead? YES, she did, and this is evidently why she applauded the OP for calling me an idiot. [I applaude the OP for starting it and I have tried since my time out to behave and say helpful, healing things.
Claiming now:
I guess you also missed my post 150 where I applauded your hard work.
Message #150 Stated:
I am happy to be known as a feminist. I always have been. I believe you can pick any organized group and you will find people with their own warped agenda, people who abuse their privileges and people who want to speak for the group. I have been listening quietly to these posts and holding my tongue for as long as possible, but I think that it is ironic that so many men are up in arms about women's ability to come together and get the things that they want.
It is men who started this whole ball of wax and now that we women want to play too, we are getting flack for how we play the game. We are either too agressive, too disorganized, too manipulating, too stupid - I mean, come on, pick an a descriptor and stick to it - we can't be all those things, right?
I also think it is ironic that the same gender who kept women oppressed are now crying foul... who do you think we learned this behavior from? Should we be able to rise above it, yes - but it takes all of us working TOGETHER to unlearn these "grab it and growl" behaviors that are so ingrained in our society.
Cuban - do u think u are the only one to read Orwell? Did u remember him saying this: "A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him."
Or how about this: "All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome."
Ultimately your quoting Orwell to prove some point against feminism is just like the little piggies declaring "Four legs good, two legs bad."
Thanks for just ripping my posts apart - yes, I traveled through space-time continum in my wayback machine to see first hand the trials the suffragettes went through... It is well documented - there are sworn affidavits available for public scrutiny - that detail how those women were vilified and abused. If you want to discredit what they did just to make feminism in your mind irrelevant, feel free. WRONG!!!! WRONG!!!! WRONG!!!! NO WHERE have I attempted to discredit these WORKING CLASS women. NO WHERE! What I HAVE done is to pay THEM the ultimate compliment of trying to emulate them!
History is great!!! I love history myself, it's wonderful that you love history. The problem is...that we don't LIVE in "history"....we live now, today and again we ask....WHAT is "feminism" doing to promote equality between genders???? We don't NEED feminism to obtain the right to vote, WOMEN prior to August 26, 1920 did that FOR US. That was over 88 years ago!!! Surely you don't think they wanted women to STOP there???? Do you honestly believe that ANY one of them would see the feminists of the 1960's and 1970s as TRAITORS to their cause????? I think they would have been proud that we picked up the ball and carried it right into the coal mines!!!! Where I think they probably STOPPED being "proud"...was around 1990 when rights were no longer sought...but entitlement. When equality was no longer sought...but undeserved superior treatment.
Tell me....SINCE 1990.....WHAT has feminism done to promote EQUALITY between the GENDERS??? | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/9/2008 3:06:40 PM |
Yes, apparently I did miss the part where you went for a nap without the benefit of milk and cookies....excuse me LOL... that's funny! Thanks for the laugh!
I guess you also missed my post 150 where I applauded your hard work. Sorry, I meant post 173.
Tell me....SINCE 1990.....WHAT has feminism done to promote EQUALITY between the GENDERS??? What is up with 1990... is there something that happened there that I missed? Up until 1990, everything was good and suddenly it is all bad? | |
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| What's up with all the hatred towards feminists?
Posted: 10/9/2008 3:33:45 PM | Well... I would suggest that anyone wondering what the evil feminists are up to should take a deep breath and go to the NOW website. I'm sure you will see much there that will upset you but if you look at the bills they are supporting, you will find:
1. Paid Leave for New Parents (note - parents, not mommies).
2. Universal Health Care (note, they even say "Health care is for EVERYONE") and
3. Promote Diversity in Media Ownership
Before anyone gets their undies in a bind, I am not a member of NOW - I have issues with just about all organized anythings so I am not advocating NOW - just you ladies asked so I'm making a suggestion. Why don't you confront your demons instead of lashing out at me? | |
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