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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/26/2009 9:56:29 AM | with reference to the questioning of winterval and the wiki, seems you have left out this .... again from the wiki.
In 2008, Church of England leaders in Birmingham criticised the "Winterval" concept. Mark Santer, then Bishop of Birmingham, said in a message to his parishes, "I confess I laughed out loud when our city council came out with Winterval as a way of not talking about Christmas. No doubt it was a well-meaning attempt not to offend, not to exclude, not to say anything at all. ... Now it seems, the secular world, which expresses respect for all, is actually embarrassed by faith. Or perhaps it is Christianity which is censored."[4] The Archdeacon of Aston called it "a totally unnecessary example of political correctness to avoid sensitivities people simply do not have". [4] The council responded that "Christmas is the very heart of Winterval", saying that Christmas-themed events were prominent among those included in Winterval, and that Christmas-related words and symbols were prominent in its publicity material.[4] While the Winterval season was longer than the Christmas season, Christmas was the focus of the relevant portion of Winterval.[2]
Solihull council invited Birmingham residents desiring a traditional Christmas to come there instead.[2]
[edit] Legacy
Birmingham City Council abandoned the "Winterval" name after the 1998–9 season.[2] The name "Winterval" persists as shorthand for any secular replacement for Christmas, used both by supporters[5][6] and opponents[7] of the traditional Christmas; it is also cited as a cautionary tale or urban legend by those who regard allegations of the existence of a "war on Christmas" as overblown.[2] As such, "Winterval" has been the topic of a question on the quiz-show QI.
all this is quite suprising, considering brum hasnt exactly got the best record on racial violence. but think most brummies would rather have an ozfest, and its not chrimbo without the shout of noddy holder. just cannot imagine him running round the streets shouting ITS WINTERVAL!!
edit, tell the truth chops, you asked him for a carling darling lol | |
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| Political Correctness *
Posted: 10/26/2009 10:18:23 AM | What exactly are you being prevented from saying now?
And if you read my previous post with the quote from the tories, you'll see that they want to encourage more "asians" in their party,
who mentioned anything about asians...? i certainly havent...but all this pc thing has gone a bit too far now hasnt it..were not allowed to say hardly anything anymore..white christmas..black pudding..fecking baa baa black sheep..etc etc..i asked for a pint of carling black label lager a few years ago and was told by the landlord its got to be called ''carling'' ..not black label anymore...its gone from the ridiculous to the sublime now all this pc craic...it should go back to the way it was when anyone could say anything they wanted without being gagged... | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/26/2009 10:25:17 AM | Mark Santer, then Bishop of Birmingham, said in a message to his parishes, "I confess I laughed out loud when our city council came out with Winterval as a way of not talking about Christmas. No doubt it was a well-meaning attempt not to offend, not to exclude, not to say anything at all. ... Now it seems, the secular world, which expresses respect for all, is actually embarrassed by faith. Or perhaps it is Christianity which is censored.
It was explained earlier (hula) what the council's intentions were, and yet this man, and others, choose to ignore that and decide that they really know what the Council were thinking!
IMO Christianity should be censored, or at least subject to the rules of the Trading Standards, and Advertising authorities; prove what you're saying is true, or stop selling it. Is that "PC"?
I confess I laughed out loud at the suggestion I could take the opinion of someone in that hat seriously!
This man isn't there on any sort of merit, he says he felt "a calling"... - to dress up. These people are all self appointed, why should I listen to him?
His ideal would be to wear a loin cloth and a crown of thorns, because it says so in what can only be described as a book !!
He probably believes the mentally ill are possessed by the devil!
He is paid to perform rituals, of course he's going to fight for his "job", and the continuation of his "job" depends on belief, and the perpetuation of those rituals.
Edit: But if you look at msg 155 , chop, when I researched it, it says that all those things; baa baa black sheep, blackboard and black coffee were all myths which originated in the "Sun". There is nowhere where that's "banned" | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/26/2009 10:33:10 AM | "Quite simply, as Head of events at that time, we needed a vehicle which could cover the marketing of a whole season of events…Diwali (festival of Lights), Christmas lights switch on, BBC Children in Need, Aston Hall by Candlelight, Chinese New year, New Years eve etc. Also a season that included theatre shows and open air ice rink, Frankfurt open air Christmas market and the Christmas seasonal retail offer. Christmas, called Christmas! and its celebration, lay at the heart of Winterval.
Political correctness was never the reasoning behind Winterval, but yes it was intended to be inclusive (which is no bad thing to my mind) and a brand to which other initiatives could be developed as part of The Winterval offer in order to sell the City at a time when all cities are competing against each other for the seasonal trade."
He was, of course, talking 'bollox'.
The British events mentioned ARE 'inclusive' to those who wish to participate (I don't give a fcuk about the foreign events he mentioned, so I disregard them totally). I'm not sure why the Brum Council should be celebrating them anyway......
Those that whine about the 'pc brigade are generally those that couldn't give a flying doo-dad about being polite, about being respectful or about empathising with another person.
Hmm.....so it's 'polite' of the PC brigade to stifle all dissent to their agenda? To stifle 'free-speech, and to prevent people from using our language to describe things?
O-kaaaay | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/26/2009 10:34:41 AM | well as far as im aware, christmas is a christian festival, and guess what .... we live in a christian society like it or not. so would think the various bishops know a thing or two rather then a council about the whole thing?
im not a christian but still respect that christmas is celebrated by the large majority. but you are still missing the point that the council came up with a stupid idea and resulted in negative views. the council in question doesnt have the best record when it comes to bringing the people together, instead it does more to seperate. wouldnt be suprised if the duke of edinburgh was head of media and pr. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/26/2009 11:05:51 AM |
you are still missing the point that the council came up with a stupid idea and resulted in negative views. the council in question doesnt have the best record when it comes to bringing the people together, instead it does more to seperate. wouldnt be suprised if the duke of edinburgh was head of media and pr.
I don't know how the council was when this was done, but currently its:
49 Conservative Councillors (Con)
36 Labour Councillors (Lab)
32 Liberal Democrat Councillors (LibDem)
3 Respect Councillors
Total: 120 Councillors
from: http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/members
All the members are listed, and it's seems to be a fairly diverse bunch, so I'm guessing that's where the requests came from. The "Asian" councillors were acting for their constituents, the "Chinese" councillors were acting for their constituents etc. etc., that's how democracy works isn't it?
And it sort of gives lie to the myth that people are "feeling offense on behalf of others"
There are a great many councillors from minorities, check it out at the address.
But it looks as though the tories are the largest group, but it is a hung council, and many people would argue that this produces the most democratic governance.
I still don't see where people are being forced against their will, this was a majority decision... wasn't it? | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/26/2009 11:57:16 AM | | Political Correctness and social engineering and a failed experiment in multiculturism, we are all fooked thanks to Nuliebour. Anyone who votes for those knobs again need a frontal lobe labotomy. They are pure and simply Marxist traitors and they plotted our demise as far back as the year 2000. I have nothing against people who are coloured or Asian and want to live here and consider themselves British, and put into the pot like the rest of us. I work with Asians and even they are peed off at it! and werent it Jack Straw who said that the English as a race werent worth saving? Him and Bliar between them have destroyed this country. No border controls and you can even stay if you own a cat! ffs. Im not racist and yes some contibute to society, and they are the 1st 2nd and 3rd generation Asian and Blacks, and not these ecomomic parasites jumping on the back of an Argos wagon heading to a store near you. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/26/2009 12:16:48 PM | have tried to find out where the list of councillors for that time period but not having much luck  i do know it was a big labour majority as the tories have taken over the first time in around 26 years. might email the birmingham city council and ask them for archieves but dont want to be woken up at 4 am and forced on a pc training course 
every one assumes that ethnics support labour, but i know a fair few asians who vote tory as they want less restrictions in there life and are to fed up with labels. but jo you know as well as i do there is never a councillor going round asking there wards views and obvious that it never happened in this case. it was more like tea, hobknobs and breathing exercises before planning the campaign to make brum a new pc city. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/26/2009 1:39:49 PM |
every one assumes that ethnics support labour, but i know a fair few asians who vote tory as they want less restrictions in there life and are to fed up with labels.
I looked through the list badge, and all the conservatives have english names
That's probably why they are trying to recruit more "Asian" members, so they can put them up in those wards.
They're gonna have a job though if they say stuff like the bold section when they announce it:
In the past we had given the impression that Asians were not wanted. But things have changed and we want to build a different Britain. Now is the good time to invest in the Conservative party your energy, money and talent and we do need more women, black and Asian MPs," Gary Streeter, MP and Vice Chairman of the Conservative Party
Not very "PC" really was it? | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/26/2009 1:57:42 PM | thats not very pc either jo assuming that an asian decendent cannot have an english name we used to have a councillor who was a tory and 2nd generation asian but think he got locked up for drink driving or dangerous driving lol
i think most of the mainstream are looking at it that way, as per percentage of the population all parties lack the required eqivilant levels to be pc. ive always said the best person for the job, be it man/woman/black/asian/gay/jewish or what ever. after all il take any fecker then the present one, jacqui smith! | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/26/2009 2:05:38 PM | Badge, are you talking about a certain kidderminster ward? If so, yeah, and there's another one that's just got done for drink driving and all of a sudden is now 'Independent'
Political correctness has a basic flaw. If all views are equal, why do some who embrace this view feel the need to push this agenda as the "correct" one at the same time demonizing other views as "incorrect"? | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 12:12:54 AM |
Political correctness has a basic flaw. If all views are equal, why do some who embrace this view feel the need to push this agenda as the "correct" one at the same time demonizing other views as "incorrect"?
Absolutely, I could not have summed it up better myself.
Polical Correctness and the Political Correctness Brigade are generally are all about surpression (no equality) although they won't admit it. Thankfully, they stick out like 'sore thumbs' (on here and in the real world), therefore, they are quite easy to avoid. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 7:23:56 AM | nope, was on about this chap
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2009/02/05/disgraced-redditch-councillor-set-to-be-banned-by-conservatives-after-being-jailed-for-dangerous-driving-97319-22856668/
hence why i said about asians starting to come through the ranks of the conservatives as most are business owners, i knew the chap when he worked in his dads take away and is a nice enough chap.
what i find interesting is that labour go on about equality and yet why havent they ever had a woman leader? or promoted a black/asian to join the big jobs in the cabinet? | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 9:18:45 AM |
what i find interesting is that labour go on about equality and yet why havent they ever had a woman leader? or promoted a black/asian to join the big jobs in the cabinet?
Seems like they've been trying to badge! This was Keith Vaz in 2008:
from: http://www.epolitix.com/latestnews/article-detail/newsarticle/mp-backs-all-ethnic-minority-shortlists/?no_cache=1
Senior Labour MP Keith Vaz has called for a change in the law to allow all-ethnic minority shortlists for parliamentary seats.
The Leicester East MP introduced a 10-minute rule motion in the Commons on Wednesday which would amend the law to make the positive discrimination permissible.
Vaz was one of four Labour ethnic minority MPs elected in 1987 but said progress on improving representation since then had been "painfully slow", with a total of only 15 from all parties in Parliament now.
"The creation of ethnic-minority shortlists will undoubtedly see more ethnic minorities taking up seats in Parliament, which will mean a Parliament that mirrors the society it represents," he argued.
His Race Relations (Election Candidates) Bill would be a voluntary measure for parties to adopt in some seats but would remove legal obstacles surrounding the discrimination, as Labour had to do when its all-women shortlists were found to be illegal.
"This Bill is a wake-up call for all our political parties," Vaz said. "We have waited long enough. It is time for more action and less talk."
However Conservative MP Philip Davies took the unusual step of speaking against the motion, which has little chance of passing into law, describing the idea as "political correctness"
"Once we start electing people based on the colour of their skin then I think we've got a problem in our society," he said.
I don't know if the bill was passed or not, maybe it's not so straightfoward? The tories opposed it though, seems like way back in 2008 they were against any "positive discrimination", but now they say:
London, Sept 11 (PTI) Britain's opposition Conservative Party is making a serious bid to woo Asians, particularly Indians here, saying it needed more women, black and Asian MPs in its rank in the next general elections.
"In the past we had given the impression that Asians were not wanted. But things have changed and we want to build a different Britain. Now is the good time to invest in the Conservative party your energy, money and talent and we do need more women, black and Asian MPs," Gary Streeter, MP and Vice Chairman of the Conservative Party
The times the are a'changing.....?
Kind of illustrates the point though...
Maybe there's just the tiniest possibility that the "right-wing" can be "PC" too, if there's votes at stake
But is this "PC"? Or is it just democracy?
I'm confused....
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 9:42:38 AM | 'Political Correctness' usually followed by the adage "gone mad" is largely a construct of the right wing media to wind up folk who are clearly gullible enough to believe all the bile that pours from their pages.
I know a lot of people on the political left from woolly liberals all the way through to hard-nosed anarchists and I've never come across one single person that thinks the word 'black' is offensive and should be replaced with something else. Including, strangely enough, black people.
If that was the case then why is blackmail still called blackmail and not pinkmail? Why is a London black cab not called an orange cab with a spray job to help matters? The story of baa baa black sheep was The Sun (who else?) not getting its lazy journalists to research things properly, publishing a story of half-truths that the disingenuous have seized hold of and pushed as God's given truth to support their agenda that the 'silent majority' is being slowly 'silenced' (lovely contradiction there!).
Opposition to 'political correctness' and the non-stop myths being peddled around it are primarily racists and bigots who would love 'paki' jokes to once again be acceptable in the mainstream so push the notion that 'things are going too far' to attack the folk who see prejudice against race as something which should be consigned to history. It is one of Nick Griffin's major bugbears, after all. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 10:04:18 AM |
'Political Correctness' usually followed by the adage "gone mad" is largely a construct of the right wing media
I agree with you basically PM (PM..? Is that just a coincidence.....?)
And it's what Polly Toynbee said in the post where I dragged this thread back.
But I was hoping to find some genuine examples, to get some insight into just what it is that people feel they are being prevented from saying.
The research does reveal that most of the examples generally quoted; Baa Baa Black sheep; Blackboard, Black coffee etc. are myths, with no basis in fact.
Some other people have given examples that aren't really "PC" issues, more "Health and Safety" issues,
- like being supervised while lighting a stove at the BBC. And again these are wrongly attributed to have their origins with the "PC Brigade", when in fact they are often stipulations made by people's insurance companies.
we all know that they won't pay out unless the stipulations are followed to the letter.
Others are perhaps confusing the race discrimination laws with PC, and saying that the "PC Brigade" "take offense on behalf of others" , but I've seen no evidence of that.
It's a conundrum.
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 11:19:20 AM |
Opposition to 'political correctness' and the non-stop myths being peddled around it are primarily racists and bigots who would love 'paki' jokes to once again be acceptable in the mainstream so push the notion that 'things are going too far' to attack the folk who see prejudice against race as something which should be consigned to history.
Well, ignoring the obvious fact that racial prejudice will always be around as long as there are races, some acts by the PC brigade actually encourage racial division.
Take, for instance, the position of various councils around England who refuse to fly the flag of our country on April 23rd for fear of causing offence to our 'guests'. Such an act can engender anger towards them within people who don't mind other races being here. Further, the act of flying the Irish flag on March 17th by those same councils might engender resentment towards the Irish.
Quite why the flag of a foreign nation should be flown above Croydon Council offices is beyond me, especially as the day is primarily an excuse to get drunk.....
As for the 'paki' etc jokes, I can assure that they are alive and well in many walks of life - just check the internet for proof of that.
But I was hoping to find some genuine examples, to get some insight into just what it is that people feel they are being prevented from saying.
The research does reveal that most of the examples generally quoted; Baa Baa Black sheep; Blackboard, Black coffee etc. are myths, with no basis in fact.
Just because these things aren't posted on the internet doesn't mean that there isn't any pressure to amend our choice of language in certain instances.
Others are perhaps confusing the race discrimination laws with PC, and saying that the "PC Brigade" "take offense on behalf of others" , but I've seen no evidence of that.
So no-one has ever been asked to hide their 'piggy-bank' at work, or their 'England' cup, for fear of upsetting their foreign colleagues? | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 11:24:10 AM | The so called N word would be considered racist weather we were PC or not. In my opinion political correctness and racism are to different things. I agree we should not be racist nor should we exclude someone because of their race, but that's as far as it goes. However it seems now days that PC is so petty that we can't do anything without someone getting offended.
growing up as a kid everybody used to take the piss in other ways, ginger hair, the fat kid, the spotty kid, there was the odd black / white jokes but never anything involving racial slurs. I've been the minority in a group before and heard black / white jokes and not got offended.
If you can't laugh at yourself, then how are you supposed to have a sense of humour?
Sooner or later it's going to get so bad that people will avoid mixing with other cultures altogether for fear of doing or saying something that may be considered "offensive".
English culture has worldwide influence, to erode it away for the sake of minorities seems ironic, since most of these people consider themselfs English anyway. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 11:32:56 AM | As for the 'paki' etc jokes, I can assure that they are alive and well in many walks of life - just check the internet for proof of that.
I said 'into the mainstream'. I'm well aware they're still doing the rounds by various forms of communication.
Just because these things aren't posted on the internet doesn't mean that there isn't any pressure to amend our choice of language in certain instances.
Then there should be streams of examples documented online other than silly stories from the Sun of all the credible news groups... I'm sure they're sitting right next to all of those 'paki' jokes. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 11:41:28 AM |
Then there should be streams of examples documented online other than silly stories from the Sun of all the credible news groups...
Why should there be? Did you read the section of my post that you quoted? | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 11:47:05 AM | notice you used the word "trying" for keith vaz wasnt he involved with passport fraud a couple of years ago or something? if so not exactly the best example.
from what was said in the summer, gorden clown seems to have a problem having women in his cabinet after a few left moaning. not great for equal opportunaties.
most of the forum will agree that the pc brigade and debate is down to new labours stratergy be it divide and conquor or point at the scape goat. its not good for debate to label sun readers thick, after all they have the highest sellers and very generalising.
edit so the times isnt a good source?
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article738220.ece | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 11:48:52 AM |
So no-one has ever been asked to hide their 'piggy-bank' at work, or their 'England' cup, for fear of upsetting their foreign colleagues?
Not in my experience, they always seem to be apocryphal tales, unless you have some evidence?
Sooner or later it's going to get so bad that people will avoid mixing with other cultures altogether for fear of doing or saying something that may be considered "offensive"
I'm confused by this, as earlier in the thread you said:
In my opinion the PC brigade are individuals that take offence on behalf of other groups of people without their consent. They are also the ones that bring up PC issues in often inappropriate times. i.e. a social setting.
Are you now saying that actually it's the people themselves who find offense in this language that you're afraid may slip out (Accidentally?)?
If the people are offended by it, is it because they are too 'thin-skinned' or is the language itself offensive?
This is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of... | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 12:02:39 PM |
Are you now saying that actually it's the people themselves who find offense in this language that you're afraid may slip out (Accidentally?)?
If the people are offended by it, is it because they are too 'thin-skinned' or is the language itself offensive?
This is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of...
No, What I'm saying is people will avoid other cultures because of a fear created by the PC brigade.
People may eventually think, if I don't mix with other cultures, there's less chance of me saying or doing anything offensive. i.e. don't invite him he's muslim, he might get offended if we drink beer around him. Of course the muslim guy wont, but this is the sort of mentality that the PC brigade is instilling into people. This is the reason why forced political correctness is wrong on so many levels.
It's a stupid way of thinking created by some stupid German nearlly half a century ago. It's about time we all grew up as a society and moved on. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 12:03:15 PM | Hmmm there are a few dilemas with PC that are pertinent to dating.
I fully understand why there was a clamp down on leering blokes with huge bottom cleavage bawling out in the street "Get yer tits out darlin" "Coooooor I'd like to give you one babe" "Nice arse" "Watchya doin tonite hun - I bet you'd like a big portion" etc etc it could be highly offensive and when the 'victim' got it every day every time she left/entered her place of work - tedious and demeaning.
However.... the 'wolf whistle' - said everything and nothing and women did it too - so what was so offensive about that? Didn't some guys get sacked for wolf whistling?
And then what does one do when dating? Obviously "You have fabulous eyes" isn't going to offend too many people - but at what point, if any, is it PC to say, 'great legs / bum / boobs' Etc? Or does one wait until the moment of Tuppance - if that arrives? And can you be PC dating? Is it PC to like someone's looks? And if it's not PC when is it correct not to be PC - the human race sort of depends on people fancying each other. | |
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