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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 12:15:37 PM | No, What I'm saying is people will avoid other cultures because of a fear created by the PC brigade.
People may eventually think, if I don't mix with other cultures, there's less chance of me saying or doing anything offensive. i.e. don't invite him he's muslim, he might get offended if we drink beer around him. Of course the muslim guy wont, but this is the sort of mentality that the PC brigade is instilling into people.
So your basic objection is that the "PC Brigade" are frightening "vulnerable" people ?
Surely most sensible people wouldn't be scared that they'll say something wrong?
It's not that difficult, I struggle to think of the kind of simpleton that would worry he couldn't control his own mouth...
It's making me think of Basil Fawlty saying "don't mention ze Var"!!
So if the people who object to the "PC Brigade" are in fact objecting on behalf of someone else? (The scared people)?
But isn't that what you said "PC" people do?
I'm getting very confused... | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 1:16:06 PM | Why should there be? Did you read the section of my post that you quoted?
Yes, of course I did. And if it's happening as much as is being stated here then the forum and blogosphere must be alive with anecdotal tales of how people can no longer say the word 'black'.
Newshounds - Get googling!
Other than that you're expecting people to believe a line of argument that you can't substantiate. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 2:11:38 PM | I'd rather take the chance of offending someone than avoiding them. I'm sure it can work both ways though. Anyone can offend anyone else, regardless of ethnicity.
The last time I saw a Muslim friend, we went out, I had a few drinks, they didn't, I'm sure nothing I did offended them, it's a case of live and let live really.
To be honest with you after years of working in places where anti discriminatory practice was the in thing, you can't make people work with that ethos if they don't believe in it and yes some of it is a pile of shite and goes too far but people do get discriminated against and if they didn't there wouldn't be such an emphasis on it in the first place.
Re naming a blackboard a white board is just a load of bollocks though. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 2:32:18 PM | | I think Hitler or Nazi has to be mentioned specifically in a debate for someone to invoke Godwin's law. If she's referring to your Fawlty Towers quote then it's been used in the wrong context. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 3:27:45 PM | Just thinking about examples of PC influences, and the request for examples of such in the everyday world, and something occurred to me:
I've recently started to notice the appearance of actors in certain fictional programmes on TV who have ethnic origins that are not in keeping with either the period or setting of the story .
As a couple of examples, there was last year's Dr Who crimbo special which carried the very attractive, but historically inappropriate, Velile Tshabalala in one of the leading roles as an "East End Girl" named Rosita.
Then there is the "Merlin" TV series, which has the lovely Angel Coulby playing the role of Gwen/Guinevere and, in two early episodes, featured the black actor Keith Durham playing her father, the local blacksmith. Once again, both of these are ethnic origins outside of what could be considered historically accurate for the period portrayed.
Don't misunderstand me; their acting abilities are superb, but I find it jarring in much the same way as I would find, say, a Chinese actor playing the role of an ordinary villager in a tribal drama set in historical Africa. It simply doesn't look right.
In fairness I do tend to be a bit of a pedant with these things. For example; I shouted at the TV during an episode of Ashes to Ashes when they produced a modern electronic breathalyser instead of the crystal tube and polythene bag appropriate for the period. But this isn't in the same league.
Is this an example of PC insidiously altering our perceptions of history in a way far more subtle than the alleged banning of "sensitive" words? | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 4:17:26 PM |
Is this an example of PC insidiously altering our perceptions of history in a way far more subtle than the alleged banning of "sensitive" words?
I don't know enough about the period, but I take your point, in the film there was a Moorish soldier played by ....... you know that bloke in the Shawshank Redemption.
And it was supposed to be in the time of Richard the First. (Although they never actually called him that....) with the crusades and the moors and that...
But I'mm having trouble trying to nail down exactly what and who the PC brigade are too, and if this is an example, then the film industry is in on it too.....(Where's the 'suspicious' smiley?) | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 5:01:23 PM | But I'mm having trouble trying to nail down exactly what and who the PC brigade are too
I think most people have difficulty in pinning down exactly who (if anyone) is behind the numerous variety of things that get grouped under the generic heading of Political Correctness.
Clearly somebody started the barrel rolling but, to my mind, many ordinary everyday folk are as guilty of perpetuating it as the "hand-wringing do-gooders" we traditionally associate with it .
Many times I've heard the phrase "You can't say that, it's not politically correct!" uttered by people who simply use it to imply they are somehow superior to the person they have just admonished. A sort of variant of the blowing out someone else's candle to make theirs appear brighter principle.
I've often seen it used hypocritically in public by those who are totally un-PC when in private company. And, let's face it; most of us have received un-PC "jokes" via text and Email, often originating from a contact who is to all appearances utterly PC to the public at large.
Personally, I've always held the view that people have the power over whether to take offence or not. Even in the most severe cases. I can't help but wonder , if as much time and effort was put into educating people that they have the power to ignore an insult (no matter how offensive), as is put into meeting PC dictates, whether the whole PC thing would die a natural death. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 5:47:19 PM |
Other than that you're expecting people to believe a line of argument that you can't substantiate.
People can believe what they choose to believe in my posts.
Basically, you're asking for proof of something which I claim doesn't exist on the internet, which is rather odd, given that you too have claimed that it doesn't exist!
Once again, you're asking for proof of something which you've already acknowledged in your own posts.
Allow me to explain:
In MSG 197, a poster had stated:
But I was hoping to find some genuine examples, to get some insight into just what it is that people feel they are being prevented from saying. The research does reveal that most of the examples generally quoted; Baa Baa Black sheep; Blackboard, Black coffee etc. are myths, with no basis in fact.
to which I had replied:
"Just because these things aren't posted on the internet doesn't mean that there isn't any pressure to amend our choice of language in certain instances."
In MSG 200, you quoted that comment and stated:
Then there should be streams of examples documented online other than silly stories from the Sun of all the credible news groups...
as if it followed on from what I had said. It cannot possibly do so - if I state that examples aren't posted, you cannot accurately state that if that were the case, then there would be examples!
You then asked me to provide examples of comments which I had already stated do not exist, and which you had also acknowledged did not exist!
And if it's happening as much as is being stated here then the forum and blogosphere must be alive with anecdotal tales of how people can no longer say the word 'black'.
Er.......why would anyone wish to search for evidence which disproved their stance on a topic? Surely that is up to those who disagree with that stance?
You've already acknowledged that the internet ISN'T awash with such stories/comments/examples........which supports my original comment!
HTH | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 6:31:27 PM | I was sent this joke - which sort of sums up the worst of PC.
Trafalgar
Nelson: "Order the signal, Hardy."
Hardy: "Aye, aye sir."
Nelson: "Hold on, that's not what I dictated to Flags. What's the meaning of this?"
Hardy: "Sorry sir?"
Nelson (reading aloud): "England expects every person to do his or her duty, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religious persuasion or disability." - "What gobbledegook is this?"
Hardy: "Admiralty policy, I'm afraid, sir. We're an equal opportunities employer now. We had the devil's own job getting 'England' past the censors, lest it be considered racist."
Nelson: "Gadzooks, Hardy. Hand me my pipe and tobacco."
Hardy: "Sorry sir. All naval vessels have now been designated smoke-free working environments."
Nelson: "In that case, break open the rum ration. Let us splice the mainbrace to steel the men before battle."
Hardy: "The rum ration has been abolished, Admiral. Its part of the Government's policy on binge drinking."
Nelson: "Good heavens, Hardy. I suppose we'd better get on with it. Full speed ahead."
Hardy: "I think you'll find that there's a 4 knot speed limit in this stretch of water."
Nelson: "Damn it man! We are on the eve of the greatest sea battle in history. We must advance with all dispatch. Report from the crow's nest please."
Hardy: "That won't be possible, sir."
Nelson: "What?"
Hardy: "Health and Safety have closed the crow's nest, sir. No harness, and they said that rope ladders don't meet regulations. They won't let anyone up there until a proper scaffolding can be erected."
Nelson: "Then get me the ship's carpenter without delay, Hardy."
Hardy: "He's busy knocking up a wheelchair access to the fo'c'sle."
Nelson: "Wheelchair access? I've never heard anything so absurd."
Hardy: "Health and safety again, sir. We have to provide a barrier-free environment for the differently abled."
Nelson: "Differently abled? I've only one arm and one eye and I refuse even to hear mention of the word. I didn't rise to the rank of admiral by playing the disability card."
Hardy: "Actually sir, you did. The Royal Navy is under represented in the areas of visual impairment and limb deficiency."
Nelson: "Whatever next? Give me full sail. The salt spray beckons."
Hardy: "A couple of problems there too, sir. Health and safety won't let the crew up the rigging without hard hats. And they don't want anyone breathing in too much salt - haven't you seen the adverts?"
Nelson: "I've never heard such infamy. Break out the cannon and tell the men to stand by to engage the enemy."
Hardy: "The men are a bit worried about shooting at anyone, Admiral."
Nelson: "What? This is mutiny!"
Hardy: "It's not that sir. It's just that they're afraid of being charged with murder if they actually kill anyone. There's a couple of legal-aid lawyers on board, watching everyone like hawks."
Nelson: "Then how are we to sink the Frenchies and the Spanish?"
Hardy: "Actually sir, we're not."
Nelson: "We're not?"
Hardy: "No, sir. The French and the Spanish are our European partners now. According to the Common Fisheries Policy, we shouldn't even be in this stretch of water. We could get hit with a claim for compensation."
Nelson: "But you must hate a Frenchman as you hate the devil."
Hardy: "I wouldn't let the ship's diversity co-ordinator hear you saying that sir. You'll be up on a disciplinary report."
Nelson: "You must consider every man an enemy, who speaks ill of your King."
Hardy: "Not any more, sir. We must be inclusive in this multicultural age. Now put on your Kevlar vest. It's the rules. It could save your life"
Nelson: "Don't tell me - health and safety. Whatever happened to rum, sodomy and the lash?"
Hardy: As I explained, sir, rum is off the menu! And there's a ban on corporal punishment."
Nelson: "What about sodomy?"
Hardy: "I believe that is now legal, sir."
Nelson: "In that case............... kiss me, Hardy. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/27/2009 6:32:29 PM | Jo van...
<div class="quote">But I was hoping to find some genuine examples, to get some insight into just what it is that people feel they are being prevented from saying.
The research does reveal that most of the examples generally quoted; Baa Baa Black sheep; Blackboard, Black coffee etc. are myths, with no basis in fact
No basis in fact? Are you sure?
"TRADITIONAL nursery rhymes are being rewritten at nursery schools to avoid causing offence to children".
"Instead of singing “Baa baa, black sheep” as generations of children have learnt to do, toddlers in Oxfordshire are being taught to sing “Baa baa, rainbow sheep”.
"In keeping with the new approach, teachers at the nurseries have reportedly also changed the ending of Humpty Dumpty so as not to upset the children and dropped the seven dwarfs from the title of Snow White".
“Why do people waste time and money doing this sort of thing when there are far more important things to think about when it comes to educating our children?”
“Baa Baa, Black Sheep has been one of the most well-known nursery rhymes for generations. For people to come along and fiddle with it is ridiculous. What on earth is a rainbow sheep anyway?"
"Last year, a nursery school in Aberdeen caused uproar, when teachers changed the lyrics to “Baa baa, happy sheep”.
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article738220.ece
Can you provide a link to this 'reliable' source that attempts to deny the facts  ?
I am sure there is more info out there to prove that the claims are facts and not myths, but I cannot be bothered to search for them. Only the PC Brigade would attempt to deny the reality... many of us experience situations on a daily basis.
<div class="quote">unless you have some evidence?
Open your eyes and you are likely to see many examples in front of your eyes . This is not aimed at you but is a generic statement... I am baffled by the simpletons who go through life ignorantly. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 12:52:44 AM | Oh look! Somebody's mentioned baa baa black sheep again.  | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 1:10:46 AM | A bunch of highly sensitive folk who are excessive in word manipulation and gagging free expression.
why do they misinterpret words like 'dislike' and replace it with 'hatred' or 'discrimination' for 'disagreement'. | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 4:46:12 AM |
I am baffled by the simpletons who go through life ignorantly.
I am sure you are baffled by many things...
But how about this nursery rhyme:
Eeny, meeny, miney, mo......
catch a n****r by his toe,
if he hollers, let him go,
Eeny meeny miney mo..
Is it also "ridiculous" and "PC gone mad" to no longer use this in our nurseries?
See, the times have changed , there are now people who are offended by this, and I have no wish to offend, so I cease. Others may see this as political correctness, I don't, I am a basically friendly person.
The references you asked for are in my first post on this thread, where you will find a quote from Polly Toynbee, which implies that "PC" is generally used in the context of racism, and as the only example you could come up with is about your objections to the changing of the words of Baa Baa black sheep, perhaps she's right?
But as you're not directly involved (I'm assuming?) with this Oxfordshire Nursery School, you seem to also be objecting on someone else's behalf.
Which has been used as the major objection to the 'ways' of PC,
aren't you therefore being overly "PC" about this change?
How has "PC" affected your life?
What have you been "suppressed" from saying?
I have never felt "supressed" as I say, because I voluntarily stop using words or phrases if people are offended. If that makes me PC on occassion, so be it! I prefer to think of it as good manners.
But I have no control over others, who does? | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 9:27:29 AM | Jo Van
The references you asked for are in my first post on this thread, where you will find a quote from Polly Toynbee, which implies that "PC" is generally used in the context of racism, and as the only example you could come up with is about your objections to the changing of the words of Baa Baa black sheep, perhaps she's right?
But as you're not directly involved (I'm assuming?) with this Oxfordshire Nursery School, you seem to also be objecting on someone else's behalf.
Which has been used as the major objection to the 'ways' of PC,
aren't you therefore being overly "PC" about this change?
i think my head just exploded, how can he be "pc" about a change when THEY changed it first?? clearly, with one wielding the batton of common sense, that changing it from black sheep to rainbow sheep that they are implying that the nursery rhyme was racist, which is bull, the rhyme wasn't broken so why was it being fixed? other than to make a mountain out of a molehill? i'l still call it a blackboard, because thats what it is, a board that happens to be coloured black so white (can i say that? or do i need to be PC about that?) chalk will show up on a contrasting background... seemed senseable enough to me...
so no... he isn't being PC about the change, thats just being overcalculatingly anal about things.
cheers | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 11:02:38 AM | You then asked me to provide examples of comments which I had already stated do not exist, and which you had also acknowledged did not exist!
Which was my point entirely. If no evidence exists then your claim that:
"Just because these things aren't posted on the internet doesn't mean that there isn't any pressure to amend our choice of language in certain instances."
Doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If you take a position in an argument then it's reasonable that you are expected to back up your claims with verifiable evidence when challenged.
"Although there's no proof of it online doesn't mean that the moon isn't made of green cheese" is just p1ss and wind.
Er.......why would anyone wish to search for evidence which disproved their stance on a topic? Surely that is up to those who disagree with that stance?
Anecdotal evidence would support your stance on this issue. It's up to you to find it, not me.
You've already acknowledged that the internet ISN'T awash with such stories/comments/examples........which supports my original comment!
It tears your own argument to pieces by highlighting that perhaps there isn't "pressure on people to amend their choice of language in certain situations". | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 11:06:42 AM |
i think my head just exploded, how can he be "pc" about a change when THEY changed it first?? clearly, with one wielding the batton of common sense, that changing it from black sheep to rainbow sheep that they are implying that the nursery rhyme was racist, which is bull, the rhyme wasn't broken so why was it being fixed? other than to make a mountain out of a molehill? i'l still call it a blackboard, because thats what it is, a board that happens to be coloured black so white (can i say that? or do i need to be PC about that?) chalk will show up on a contrasting background... seemed senseable enough to me...
What's wrong with rainbow sheep?
Humpety Dumptey is hardly based on fact is it?
I don't give a flying fcuk what kids in nursery schools sing, as long as no one is offended.
Others seem to get very angry about it, although it's presumably not directly affecting them.
Therefore they are objecting on behalf of others, which has been used as a definition of the 'ways' of the "PC Brigade"
If you follow the links in earlier posts, you will see that the blackboard example is a pure myth, used to push the buttons of the easily excitable under the "PC Gone mad" category, but like so many others, it didn't exist. (Most schools are starting to use interactive white boards now, so the days of throwing the blackboard rubber are also soon to be consigned to history)
You haven't mentioned the other nursery rhyme I quoted above. The words to that have been changed to "catch a tigger by the toe". -Is this also "PC Gone mad"?
You say the "rhyme wasn't broken" but as neither you nor I are black, we can't really say if we'd be offended or not...
I can't see what the big deal is.... it doesn't bother me at all, as I said, I don't feel oppressed, I say pretty much what I like. I'm not the one complaining.
But is this the sum total of the "crimes" of the "PC Brigade", - the changing of the words of a nursery rhyme?
I was hoping for some examples which were more seriously detrimental to people's way of life really...
Sorry about your head... | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 11:33:23 AM | its all right... i got better...
i think with political correctness its just the principle of the thing, we as citizens know their doing stupid things like calling binmen "refuse collection officers", and barmen (sorry barperson) "Alcohol dispensing technicians", call a spade a spade anyone?
baa baa black sheep is roughly dated back to 1744, and its been fine for everyone up until reacently. so why change it??
i have never ever heard of a black person complaining of the song baa baa black sheep.
ok, heres "PC" in the real world
Fire breathing dragons in books break good health and safety practice
19 November 2007
An author was told by her publishers to take out references in her books to a dragon toasting his marshmallows by breathing fire on them, a mention of a red ring on an electric cooker and a boy using a ladder as they "went against health and safety".
Slough Council changes its Bonfire Night for....some reason!
19 October 2007
The traditional bonfire in Slough was scrapped allegedly to reduce the council's carbon footprint but as another councillor put it to make it more "multicultural".
Gingerbread persons are the order of the day
20 October 2006
A bakery in Kidderminster has been advertising ‘ginger persons’ and staff have been correcting those asking for a gingerbread man by saying they no longer sell them and can only offer a ginger person. However, the store manager said, “It’s just a step too far. We have schoolchildren coming in who have asked for a gingerbread man for years. Now I have to tell them they can’t have a gingerbread man and they can only have a ginger person. It is just silly really as the gingerbread man has been around for years. You can’t discriminate against a biscuit".
It seems that common sense will prevail in this case though with this statement from Greggs who own the bakery, “A regional manager took the decision to introduce ginger person in some stores in the West Midlands area. We don’t know why this has happened but we will be speaking to the manager to make sure the name is reverted to gingerbread man. The gingerbread man has been around for 200 years and we have always called it by that name."
Tom and Jerry's on screen smoking goes up in a puff
23 August 2006
After an investigation by Ofcom when it received just 1 complaint about a scene from a Tom and Jerry cartoon which showed the cat smoking - during a momentary break from the endless violence - the Boomerang Channel (which is owned by Turner Broadcasting) agreed to go back through its library of Tom and Jerry cartoons and edit out scenes which could glamorise or condone smoking. John Midgley, co-founder of CAPC, said: "Re-writing classics to avoid offence is part and parcel of our new climate of political correctness. Why should organisations roll over because one small-minded individual complains?"
Grandma not allowed to photograph grandchildren in park
9 August 2006
A Grandma who was trying to take a photo of her grandchildren at a paddling pool in a park in Southampton was told that she could not do so due to fears that paedophiles could get illicit shots of young children. Suzanne Hansford said, "I was so annoyed. Are we now to be denied having photographic memories of our children and grandchildren?" Sadly this is part of a growing trend - see the "Your Stories" section of this website. There is no legal requirement for Councils to have such a policy so do complain to them and your councillors if there is a policy to deny people taking photos in your area.
Police order woman to take down joke sign
27 July 2006
A woman who has had a tongue-in-cheek sign outside her cottage for more than 30 years has been told by police to take it down because it is deemed a "hate crime" despite local Jehovah's Witnesses saying it didn't cause offence
The sign says, "Our dogs are fed on Jehovah's Witnesses" and was put up after Jehovah's Witnesses called on them repeatedly - even once on Christmas day.
Paper planes diktat from school in Kent
18 June 2006
Staff at Bishops Down Primary School in Tunbridge Wells, Kent, have introduced a ban on pupils throwing paper planes at each other.
The youngsters are still allowed to make the darts but are being supervised to ensure they only launch them at the special targets which have been set up instead.
Want more??
cheers | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 11:39:01 AM | What's wrong with rainbow sheep?
Quite a lot:
1) For one I have yet to see a rainbow sheep.
2) All the sheep I have seen have been either black or white!
3) Baa Baa Black Sheep = 4 syllables, whereas Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep = 5 syllables
4) Rainbow is one of the symbols that denotes gay pride, so I am sure the gay community will soon be 'offended' to. With this in mind, hardly a 'PC' move...
5) What is wrong with baa baa black sheep? | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 12:43:04 PM |
so I am sure the gay community will soon be 'offended' to. With this in mind, hardly a 'PC' move...
I think they'd be more offended by being referred to as the 'gay community' (do they all live together on gay island or something?) than having their symbol stolen for a nursery rhyme aimed at kids! | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 12:43:44 PM | when PC comes in the door
common sense goes out the window
or so it seems to me | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 1:10:24 PM |
think they'd be more offended by being referred to as the 'gay community' (do they all live together on gay island or something?) than having their symbol stolen for a nursery rhyme aimed at kids!
Ever thought about basing an opinion on fact, rather than 'bigotry' or 'ignorance'?
The term 'gay community' is much used by the....er....gay community.
Oooh, look - here's an example:
http://www.gcn.ie/ | |
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 1:12:54 PM | I think they'd be more offended by being referred to as the 'gay community'
I am not part of the Politically Correct Brigade/Labour Apologist Brigade thankfully, but there is nothing wrong with my terminology.
"A candlelit vigil is to be held by Liverpool's gay community..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8328665.stm
(do they all live together on gay island or something?)
I assume many gays live and/or socialise together. I have the pleasure of living in Brighton where the majority (if not all) of the Gay bars/clubs/etc are in one part of town...
than having their symbol stolen for a nursery rhyme aimed at kids!
What about the parents of the kids who might be 'offended' that their children are being taught something that is associated with the gay community?
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| Political Correctness
Posted: 10/28/2009 1:18:49 PM | i agree
its gone too far
why they still marchin for more
they already have equal rights
i dont want my kid taught religion
or homosexuality at school
they are adult choices
if pot was made legal do u think hippys
would be marching for bong making 101
on the friggin curriculem | |
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