| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 9:30:42 AM |
China stands to gain much from domination of Israel and we stand to lose everything if we fail to militarily and economically and morally support our brother Israel.
So the cold war with Russia is over and China is the next target? That thinking is why America is falling. Make love not war AarAndEpps and maybe China wont kick US butt. America against China, emmm let me think who might win that one, Ancient America was discovered by China long before we Europeans found it and China have being a superpower for a lot longer than America, not a fight that America should fight. Not a fight that America could hope to win and America knows it. What do you mean we stand to lose everything? I stand to lose nothing. Is China threatening to invade?
Id agree with GGarbo on this subject.
5. A natural disaster wipes out farm land. The disaster normally would not have been a problem; however, together with the corruption and overpopulation it causes famine.
I think that process has started. From what I see on the news America is going through major corruption, maybe not natural disaster wipes out farm land, maybe some other natural resource instead like oil? So next thing to watch out for is civil war in the US of A, maybe some colonies breaking away but not the 52 states, further out than that. Is that what your afraid of AarAndEpps? America supports Israel but its time for point 6? If Israel refuses to take orders from America anymore then who's next? Sounds like the fall of Ancient Rome. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 11:45:24 AM | I think that process has started. From what I see on the news America is going through major corruption, maybe not natural disaster wipes out farm land, maybe some other natural resource instead like oil?
I think if we are talking more of a global event we will see several natural resources go and Global Warming could be the catalyst. Think about it, we have split in opinion about the way society should could continue to grow. There is the more liberal point of views versus conservative. These are pretty profound differences and already cause differences because the end goal we are working for differs.
1. So right now we are going into global recession
2. The poor get poorer and start to resent greatly those who we know (and have known for a long time) are corrupt.
3. We put up with it because our survival is not threatened. Our way of life maybe but not our actual physical survival.
4. We get hit 4 years in a row with major storms in key areas that produce food (you can't eat oil so even that is a willing sacrifice when it boils down to survival but does cause increases of crime and violence)
5. The ruling class starts to see the poor as a threat and cracks down enforcing rules to ensure they stay in power (if they were more altruistic this wouldn't be necessary)
6. A huge meteor strikes we are unprepared for because so many of our resources have been put into survival instead of planning for catastrophes. Now it is truly about survival. People are willing to take risks they were not before because of the only alternative is to roll over and die.
7. Social society breaks down and violence starts to explode
8. Chaos ensues and no one is getting ahead until a new power emerges that is more altruistic instead of corrupt. To rule is to serve, not have others serve you.
That new dynasty lasts until the ruling class gets a bit too comfortable, they are more interested in preserving their power then serving those who put them in power in the first place. The cycle starts over. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 2:34:03 PM | Re post 76
"....Diversity is the key to species to survival and if we are functioning as one global government I think the lack of diversity would lead to too many problems and perhaps even the downfall of all mankind...."
We are nowhere remotely near to having a "global government"! Even the so called globalisation is in its initial stages and what is called free trade (WTO) is merely a tad free-er than in the ultra protectionist past. And too many laws make it almost impossible for small companies to do business internationally, too many laws in the home market as well as the difference of laws between countries. What the systemics need IMO is free movement of people and workers between the WTO membefr countries at least. Humans need more freedoms than capital. And some basic laws need to be the same at least in the WTO or the OECD countries. In short a more humans based "capitalism", a meta-industrialism capitalism that views humans as its most precious asset (and intellect). We were moving that way a few years ago and were diverted by some events.
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 6:09:09 PM | @Post 80
I don't think we are that far off from a global government. The building blocks for that way of thinking is there. For a long time political, activist groups, etc. were sole functioning entities but are learning to work together to accomplish greater tasks. The first such networking wasn't too long ago with the movement to get rid of Land Mines. You see it now with the LHC. The more we pool resources to accomplish tasks we build a global society just like when a community realized that if they had a social structure and cooperated they could accomplish more.
We only have some of the rules but the more we cooperate the more rules that will be required and eventually a governing body. Governments of countries could evolve into more regional branches if there was a senate of leaders.
Many of these groups work with the United Nations so I could see that evolution taking place. Right now the UN guarantees autonomy and these rules are considered treaties. The more you understand and learn about diversity you realize we aren't so different after all and being part of a "country" becomes less important than working together.
This is all just guessing because something like the magnetic pole shift could take place and send us back to the dark ages. But IF.....we did get to the point were there was a global government, it is only a matter of time according to Chinese Philosophy that it would topple.
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 7:38:15 PM | Re post 81
"....I don't think we are that far off from a global government. ..."
I respectfully disagree strongly. We are extremely far from it, in reality. The examples listed are very minor and elementary.
The "world" Alexander the Great created became, after he dies, a "Single Area" not only for trade but also for ideas, religions, cultural IDs and other dimensions. That is called "The Hellenistic Times" by historians. It was probably much more "global" than any form of global we can envision in the coming decades.
Not even the EU, ie 27 countries, can manage a "single government".
And the WTO system, with 150+ members has only managed (along with GAT T before) to make trade marginally better than the protectionist era. Eg small companies cannot partake in free trade, due to many technical and practical barriers that most politicians cannot even grasp.
Thus America now can be compared to Athens, had it won the Peloponnesian Wars (instead of Sparta). Is it becoming more like Sparta than like Athens (the US)? In recent years, maybe, a little. But Sparta crumbled less than 30 years after beating Athens, was striped of its Messinian slaves and became a quaint city town. Then make Philip and then his son. Can the EU take over the world leader status from the some day? China? Who knows? One can make models and prediction but only Pythea in Delphi knows and she is not telling (lol). | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 9:50:34 PM |
So the cold war with Russia is over and China is the next target? That thinking is why America is falling. Make love not war AarAndEpps and maybe China wont kick US butt. America against China, emmm let me think who might win that one, Ancient America was discovered by China long before we Europeans found it and China have being a superpower for a lot longer than America, not a fight that America should fight. Not a fight that America could hope to win and America knows it. What do you mean we stand to lose everything? I stand to lose nothing. Is China threatening to invade?
You misunderstand me completely. China will never be the target of the US. I make love all the time.....and not in the way you think...I hate war.
Russia and China wielded their veto to kill a resolution imposing UN sanctions on President Mugabe and his inner circle in a defining vote in the 15-nation Security Council.
Russia's reason for veto was to prevent the council, under the influence of Western members, from meddling in the internal affairs of a UN member state.
China, which supplies arms to Harare, said that the Zimbabwe crisis did not constitute a threat to international peace and security, over which the council had jurisdiction.
Right now China's main source of power is coal. When the coal runs out they will lust after oil. The oil that Israel has along with all the other natural resources that China is swiftly running out of along with their custom of saving face or 'mianzi'.
China will unite their 2 million man army and cross the Euphrates river bed to fight against Israel. The Bible says the blood will rise to the tops of the military wheels or tires.
It will take Israel 5 yrs to clean up the mess and purify the land. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 9:51:31 PM |
Near the end of the empire, about the only thing that Rome was successful at was waging war. It does seem like America is rapidly approaching that point.
There will be a resurgance of the Roman Empire. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 10:10:01 PM |
There will be a resurgance of the Roman Empire.
Any basis for such a statement? Or is it just a feeling you get when Spartacus is being shown on the late movie?
Generally once empires turn to dust they stay that way. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 10:23:29 PM | Today we have a revived form of the ancient Roman Empire that is flexing its muscles on the world scene especially with regard to Israel and the Middle East. While there are twenty-five member nations, only the first ten, Holland, Luxemburg, Belgium, France, Italy, Germany, Finland, Denmark, England and Greece enjoy full member status with the remaining nations as associate members. It is glaringly clear from scripture that the shift of the world focus is back to the lands of the bible and ancient history in the last days. An overlay of the E.U. of today and the Roman Empire reveals an almost exact duplication.
Daniel chapters 2 and 7 reveal a strong connection between the formation of the European Union and end-times scripture. The possible fulfillment of this scripture began in 1950 when the Roman Empire began to show signs of being revived. In 1950 the European Coal and Steel Community was proposed as a means of achieving economic unification in Europe following the war. The hope was that this would strengthen economic trade in Europe. This unified effort led to the signing of the treaties of Rome in 1957, which established the European Economic Community (EEC), and the European Atomic Energy Council. That treaty was taken a step further with the signing of the Brussels Treaty in 1965. The Brussels Treaty began the process of rebuilding the old Roman Empire through reunification of European states under one political system, one economic system, and eventually under the protection of one military force. The treaty established a commission, council, parliament, and court for the union. The revived Roman Empire prophesied in the Bible was well on its way to becoming a reality.
More states were added to this growing union in 1973, 1981, and 1986, making up the 10 permanent member states of today’s European Union. In 2002, the Euro was introduced as the first step toward a unified single currency in Europe. Upon adopting the Euro, Portuguese Prime Minister Antonio Guterres raved, “As Peter was the rock on which the church was built, so the Euro is the rock on which the European Union will be built.” 3
The EU today is made up of over 25 countries, however the ten nations of the Western European Alliance have a separate status as full members, while those nations who joined subsequent to the original 10 have only associate membership, or observer status. This 10 nation military wing of the EU may very well fulfill the prophecy of the beast with 10 horns from Daniel 7:7-8 and Revelations 13:1. On this beast’s back will ride the woman that symbolizes a global religious system that is to appear before Christ returns to set up His kingdom.
The purpose of the EU’s creation was and is, ultimately, to create a European super-state or “United States of Europe”, as some have suggested naming it, that would eventually rival the United States in influence and military might. In 1999, Javier Solana became the High Representative for the EU’s foreign and security policy, and through recommendation 666, he was given emergency powers over the military wing of the EU in 2000. All that currently remains to create a truly revived Roman Empire is the creation of a permanent executive branch of government and the full integration of the new Euro currency. With the introduction of the new EU constitution, the groundwork is being laid for just such an executive branch and economic system.
http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/romanempire.php | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 10:33:30 PM | Re post 86
OMG, it took me a while before I realised that what was being described is the European Union (as a new "Roman Empire" !!!).
The EU has 27 members, not 25. Bulgaria and Romania became members 1//1/2007.
All members are full members, not 1o. There are no associate member.
By 1986, the members were 12, not 10.
And the EU is as Roman as .... Fish and Chips!
"Al that currently remains to create a truly revived Roman Empire is the creation of a permanent executive branch of government and the full integration of the new Euro currency. With the introduction of the new EU constitution, the groundwork is being laid for just such an executive branch and economic system."
Not quite, by far.
Plus the EU Constitution was relected by the Gals (the French) and the Dutch. And then a watered down version by the Gaellic people (Irish). I wonder was John's Revelation/Apocalypsis had written about that!!!!!
China attacking Isreal for its ... oil?
OMG!
I am too astounded to continue writing!
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 10:49:07 PM | | Sorry my mistake, I should have asked for a credible basis for your reference to a new roman empire. I often make that mistake with several posters. You really need to develop a critical mind when surfing the net. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 10:49:24 PM | Not yet! But the US is going to lose strength and the EU is going to rise to power forming the United States of Europe.
I have no idea exactly WHEN that will happen, no one knows for sure, but it will. If you had no idea, I'm not at all surprised you find it "astounding" anymore than the average "Joe" over here can see past the McDonald's Big Mac and Coke.
It's ok, I can fully understand your dismay. I would be that way too. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/17/2008 11:00:43 PM | Re post 89
As someone who worked on EU Affairs for many years, I found the factual inaccuracies about the EU indeed astounding.
As a thinking person, I also found astounding the prediction that China will attack Isreal for its (olive???) oil.
The EU may develop enough to replace the US in the world arena, actually it already antagosies with the US in many matters/issues/affairs.
But the EU does in NO way constitute a new Roman Empire, for Pete's sake! And Brussels is not a new Rome! lol
Plus: Spiritualistic/Metaphysical issues as practiced by many people nowadays are not a Philosophy topic per se, IMO, at least the way my ancestors defined Philosophy (and many, especially in Europe, define "Philosophy").
One could go as far as to "predict" (??) that an obsession of a large % of the US population with conspiracy theories and doomsday scenarios, coupled with a neo-religious infatuation, could contribute to the downfall of the USA ("burnout"). How is that for a sure thing prediction?
And the Agnostic and Atheist EU (most Europeans are either the former or the latter, a reversal of the conditions that led to the emmigration of many Europeans to the New World in centuries past) will rise to replace it in world affairs!!!
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/18/2008 3:49:55 AM | The interesting thing about the circle of life is that it keeps turning around and around and around. Life repeats and people repeat and peoples actions/reactions repeat. What happened in Ancient Rome had happened to many nations before Ancient Rome and continues to happen to this day. All nations rise and fall. If its not China or Europe or Russia or Africa or whoever thats the number one world superpower this generation it will be in the next generation or the one after that. What does it matter? Why should it be an issue? There has always being a certain percentage of people that will argue for it and against it. Again thats life. Thats how the human mind works and has always worked throughout history.
The point I think is that as long as humans remain human this circle will continue. America and American values are only valuable to America and the Americans but that does not mean there is anything wrong with them. By the same standard Palestine and Palestinian values are only valuable to Palestine and the Palestinians but equally there is nothing wrong with their values or value system and so on around the world. Ancient Rome fell because they took to much from others, more than they could manage as the Americans do today. When America is long forgotten some other nation will be going through the same process.
At the end of the day we as humans count for very little. We are animals and you can try to manipulate that any way you want but we only as important to this world as the fox or the crow or the oak tree. We are a single part of a system and that system can probably survive just fine without us because its far bigger than we can comprehend. America has as much right to Israel as China has and both have as much right to Israel as the Israelis have. The concept of who owns land as ridiculous as the concept that one nation is better than another. We all have to live on this earth and we are all here together regardless of what any of us want, the problem is that we don’t get on together and this problem has being around longer recorded history.
Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Yes it can if you want to compare it, now, yesterday or tomorrow. Lets ask the question using different words so:
Can the behaviour of humankind in Ancient Rome be compared to the behaviour of humankind in modern America?
Answer: Yes it can. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/18/2008 6:21:29 AM | I find it interesting that the current economic state in the US is being taken to such an extreme in the first place. For one thing the current economic stress is not endemic to the US, it is a worldwide situation. Second, an economic slowdown is not a basis for predicting total meltdown regardless. The great depression didn't destroy the country and it was the worst economic cataclysm in the 20th century.
Maybe if the world and the Us in general were to get away from the superpower mindset things would be different. When one is a top dog there is the pressure to stay there and there are also other countries wanting to knock you off the top. What real purpose does that serve exactly? Does it serve the people all that much? The world leaders should focus more on improving their own countries and bettering conditions for the people who elect them and not try to force their ideals on other nations anyway. Somehow the rank and file don't really get a whole lot of the deal.
As for world government, I not only think it is not a stellar idea, it is also a pipedream. How can you take so many differing ethnic systems and place them in the same box? Of course I mean under peaceful conditions. In a totalitarian situation all you would need is intense force. But coercing them all into joining of their own accord? Keep dreaming. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/18/2008 7:07:21 AM | When the Roman Empire fell, the world was left with an improved knowledge of personal hygiene, farming, irrigation/water distribution. They also gave the world some its finest philosophy, art and literature. Sure, they were a bunch of empire building, megalomaniacal, brutal, bloodthirsty lunatics but at least they gave something useful to the world.
I'm struggling to find a comparison with the United States though, at least, as far as global improvements go. I'm just not sure that cheeseburgers, mickey mouse and an unjustifiably over-inflated sense of self importance can really cut it. I mean, sure, the USA put some men on the moon which, in turn, helped with the development of Teflon, Velcro, Kevlar, hand-held vacuum cleaners and, of course, Inter Continental Ballistic Missiles. But is it enough to draw a comparison? | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/18/2008 7:47:03 AM |
I find it interesting that the current economic state in the US is being taken to such an extreme in the first place. For one thing the current economic stress is not endemic to the US, it is a worldwide situation. Second, an economic slowdown is not a basis for predicting total meltdown regardless. The great depression didn't destroy the country and it was the worst economic cataclysm in the 20th century.
I agree, the present economic crisis isn't enough to topple the US. We've been there and done that...it's more, much more than that.
As the dear lady above states, history repeats itself and the cycle of life goes on. What does concern me for my grandchildren and children, is the decay, the cancer that is eating us away from within.
We're becoming more selfish and hard. "What's in it for me?" "Who can I screw today?" "I've got mine, I don't care if you get yours!" "That's your opinion, that's what's right for you, not for me", "There is no absolute truth", "There are too many old people...too many babies..."
We have a very large faction of society that expects and demands favors. Special interst groups that insist and persist in being "victims". They have been raised to believe that they are victims and that 'somebody' owes them something.(welfare) They want more and more government programs and when they work, if they work, they only do what they have to do to stay on the payroll (flagging work ethic)
A growing lack of respect for our military and a flagging disrespect for patriotism and for our sense of nationalism. We are rapidly turning into globalists with an eye toward one world government. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/18/2008 8:03:56 AM | I don't see a growing interest in a global government. I also don't see a use for it. Further, I don't see it as being any help to the majority of people. The bureaucracy involved in maintaining a world government alone is hard to imagine. That pretty much ensures that the same people who fall through the cracks of society will continue to do so except that there will likely be many more to do so.
Maybe in considering advocating such a form of government a little thought of "what's in it for me" wouldn't be a bad thing. I doubt that many people will find that there is much in it for them. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/18/2008 8:16:54 AM |
don't see a growing interest in a global government. I also don't see a use for it. Further, I don't see it as being any help to the majority of people. The bureaucracy involved in maintaining a world government alone is hard to imagine. That pretty much ensures that the same people who fall through the cracks of society will continue to do so except that there will likely be many more to do so.
Maybe in considering advocating such a form of government a little thought of "what's in it for me" wouldn't be a bad thing. I doubt that many people will find that there is much in it for them.
I agree that right now the idea of a global ruling force doesn't sound any more appealing than the United Nations taking over things......
However, disasters of any sort, famine, disease, lack of resources....throw the masses into a state of panic. We don't like it when someone poops in our comfort zone. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/18/2008 9:53:32 AM | Oh, well, there is no perfect government!!! Moreover, how can it be the decline in moral values if 2000 yrs ago the same issue was mentioned and not the accurate statistics are available to determine true nature of the changes ???
I do not think that these are the reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire!!! I think it was mainly “fights” within and non-support between east and west after the split of the Christianity that made it easier for the others to conquer the Constantinople and further. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/18/2008 10:13:43 AM |
As the dear lady above states, history repeats itself and the cycle of life goes on.
Ehhh lady??? What a cheap dig 
What does concern me for my grandchildren and children, is the decay, the cancer that is eating us away from within.
Why? It has always been there and always will (I hope).
We have a very large faction of society that expects and demands favors.
We also have a very large faction of society that gives favors.
They have been raised to believe that they are victims and that 'somebody' owes them something.(welfare)
Should we get rid of welfare? And maybe human kindness with it? What kind of a world would that be for your grandchildren and children? Welfare and favors are what we should be doing if we can do it. | |
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| Can the fall of Ancient Rome Compare to American Now?
Posted: 10/18/2008 10:27:48 AM | Politically the Roman Empire ended when Constantinople fell in 1452. But culturally it still exists as the Roman Catholic Church, which seceded from the Orthodox around 1050. Efforts to re-unite the east and west have invariably failed, the last attempt being in the 1970s. The Orthodox churches essentially inherit the Greek cultural tradition and the Latin churches the Roman. If they were ever to reunite you might in a sense call this a restoration of the ancient Empire. The fundies could go nuts celebrating that fresh evidence that the Rapture is nigh.
To get back on topic, yes indeed you can understand America's decay better by examining the Roman one, well recorded by Gibbon. In a word, it is imperial expansion accompanied by domestic decadence, and ongoing inflation of the currency which rots away the economic fibre that sustains a civilization. The BandAid bailout just accomplished illustrates a futile head-in-the-sand approach which only amplifies the eventual inevitable economic collapse for which the rich are already hunkering down in their gold-plated bunkers well stocked with reserves of brie and chablis.
Titus opened the Colosseum and provided entertainment; today it is "American Idol." Nero provided *pain et circenses;* today it's free television and food stamps. Militarily we justly take pride in the US Marine Corps just as a Roman could be proud of the Legions, seldom defeated although they had their Vietnam when they met Hermanus. But when you see the homeless on the streets on America accepted as a permanent part of our daily domestic landscape it doesn't take a rocket scientist to decide that all is not well. | |
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