| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/11/2008 6:14:41 AM |
op: The thread was prompted by the curiousity surrounding the outcomes of the different punishment/non-punishment regimes over time;
We have never punished our son in any way, physically or otherwise. He is highly intelligent, sociable, non-aggressive, and well accepted by peers and adults. We're very pleased. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/11/2008 8:24:27 AM |
There are far more intelligent ways to teach children than to beat up on them. Concluding that the state of some of today's youth is a direct result of lack of physical damage only proves that the person drawing that conclusion is unable to do any sort of proper analysis and cannot truly understand how to determine cause and effect.
It’s possible that every generation looks around them and says, “what is the world coming to?” when it seems like we are moving inexorably to a state of increased chaos and violence. When you have terms such as “lockdown” being applied to highschool situations, if it does not make you want to look for root causes, then I say your head is in the sand. Welcome to the “me, me, me” generation where the principle focus is turned inwards.
What is it? Drugs, tv, the state of the world combined with media fear-mongering = feelings of hopelessness, the challenges of a being an working single parent just managing to keep it together, the lack of discipline, abuse at home? Please do not equate discipline with “abuse.” AND, feel free to add to the list of potentials, I am not singling out a specific factor........
I see people with terrific kids. I see youth doing wonderful things, but I do wonder where and why some go so wrong. My argument is not for beating your children for heavens sakes, grab a brain, but I AM asking if permissiveness has gone too far, and whether we think this is noticeable in society when compared to a time when consequences were stricter. Look at the judicial system. Deterrent or joke? End-of-pipe solutions are rarely solutions anyway.
Referring to the quote above, talk about the inability to analyse. Why not be able to have a discussion about a difficult and confusing topic where there may not be any simple answers? Thanks for your non-contribution. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/11/2008 9:18:14 AM | "we never punished our son in any way, physically or otherwise."
With all due respect, I can't tell if this is scarcasm or not, maybe the above poster would like to clarify. Going on the assumption it's not.
As any parent will attest to, This is totally impossible, One can't raise a child without them being punished in some form for unacceptable behavior. How will they ever learn boundries? . They would grow up thinking that anything they do is acceptable. I helped raise 3 kids, and I can count on one hand and have plenty of fingers left over the times I had to spank one of them, But make no mistake about it, they were punished in some way when they stepped too far out of line.
A child without boundries will grow up thinking that the way the world works does not really apply to them, A parent that does not punished a child when they go too far, Is actually doing that child a disservice. Something they will come to regret later on in that childs life. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/11/2008 11:27:20 AM | the problem is with physical forms of discipline is that most often it is used in the heat of anger or frustration and without a level head.
my father used this type of punishment occasion when i was younger, and to be entirely honest i got spanked or the wooden spoon across my backside usually over things that least deserved punishment. while for other offenses, i got off lightly with grounding and no tv. there was no rhyme nor reason to the degree of discipline which i might face...other than perhaps how tired or moody dad might be on that particular day.
IMO punishment should be about cause and effect, there should be an expectation of the rules and the outcome if those rules are broken. physical forms of discipline have a tendency to omit that degree of reason...they are based on emotion (anger in the parent/fear of the child) and often an absence of clear thought. not to mention i find it funny that the same parents who used this type of punishment and defended its use, would in the same breath tell their children how bad it was to hit others, and so on. a very good example of "do as i say and not as i do" hypocrisy.
i for one think the wooden spoon was long overdue for retirement...there are far better ways to cope with situations, regardless of whether the subject is a child or another adult. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/11/2008 12:55:37 PM | We have never punished our son in any way, physically or otherwise. He is highly intelligent, sociable, non-aggressive, and well accepted by peers and adults. We're very pleased.
Same here. A good Upbringing makes all the Difference in the World.  | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/11/2008 1:19:05 PM | "Same here. A good upbringing makes all the difference in the world"
Ok Maybe I am not understanding the statement being referred to. Are you saying you have never given your child a time out?????. Are you saying you child has NEVER misbehaved to the point of you having to put your foot down. The never having PHYSICALLY punished your child I understand, It's the or OTHERWISE, that's totally confusing me...... Could either of you please tell when what the "or otherwise" means?.
By the way ticket, isn't apart of a good unbringing being able to define right from wrong?. How does one go about instilling these values in a child without the ability to punish them when they go over the line?. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/11/2008 1:23:56 PM | Ok Maybe I am not understanding the statement being reffered to. Are you saying you have never given your child a time out?????. Are you saying you child has NEVER misbehaved to the point of you having to put your fot down. The never having PHYSICALLY punished your child I understand, It's the or OTHERWISE, that's totally confusing me...... Could either of you please tell when what the "or otherwise" means?.
Never struck my Kids, Wooden Spoon or anything else.
By the way ticket, isn't apart of a good unbringing being able to define right from wrong?. How does one go about instilling these values in a child without the ability to punish them when they go over the line?.
I never questioned that, although I see now the User I quoted stated "or otherwise". Punish is OK, but I never had to do so physically. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/11/2008 2:03:02 PM | for the love of God, physical discipline??!!!
yes, send them to boot camp.
One can discipline with words as well and with action ( not acts of violence). There are many ways to impart lessons, being the physical one the most ineffective and un-healthy. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/11/2008 2:29:15 PM | " althought I see now the User I quoted stated "or otherwise"
Actually you missing that part is the only explination that made any sense. Like I said earlier, I totlly can relate to a parent not ever spanking their child. Some people believe in spanking, some think it's abuse. We all should be allowed to raise our kids as we see fit, Just as long as we're not going too far when using physical punishment. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/12/2008 8:16:57 AM | I've been thinking more of what I posted earlier and feel I should elaborate. As I said, this is difficult.
While Mom used a wooden spoon, I never used a wooden spoon, except for making jam and such.
I am not a violent person. I've often said that I'm a lover not a fighter.
I don't hit people.
I've been in only one fist-fight in my life. I was in Grade 7 and had no choice to defend myself against a bully who was both taller and heavier than me.
The spankings I administered to my kid were very rare, two I think.
Reasoning with, imposing a time-out, or denying privileges to someone having a temper tantrum had no effect. The spanking was a measure of last resort and it seemed at the time to be the only way to reach through to her and get her attention.
The spankings, putting her over my knee and a couple of smacks on her bottom, through pants and those padded pull-up diapers couldn't have hurt.
When her mother and I brought my kid home from the hospital we did our best in raising the little darling to be the best she can be. One thing we didn't come home with was an owner's manual for her. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/12/2008 8:28:45 AM |
One thing we didn't come home with was an owner's manual for her.
Did you just fall off the turnip truck? It's the responsibility of the manufacturer to provide this.
You raise a good point in your post, Tyeee, and it angles a little towards the intention of my opening post. Your spankings did not raise you to be a "violent" person. Maybe this is part of the pendulum swinging backwards where we try to break the cycles of previous generations.
I don't think my (very) rare swats with the wooden spoon or a piece of kindling when I had sassed my Mum to her wits end did me much harm. More often, I was given well explained "choices" about how my actions would impact me, and was expected to take the high road.
(AND, if some people would actually READ the opening post instead of jumping on the bandwagon of moral outrage resulting from stunted comprehension, we might actually be able to have a productive discussion about middle ground and alternative methods.) | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/12/2008 11:52:05 AM | I've been a very bad boy...
So get out the spoon or cane and I'll bend over for you.......................
How can something so wrong feel so very right?
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/12/2008 12:53:41 PM | In a discussion with some colleagues of similar vintage regarding the discipline received at school and at home when we were kids, compared with what is allowed today, we concurred that the pendulum might be swinging back to allow a little stricter punishment. And, it might need to.
I can't intelligently comment on whether or not the pendulum is swinging back to allow a little stricter punishment since I have now been out of "parent mode" for a few years but I can say that I don't think it ever "helped" to make a stronger, better or more respectful person out of anyone to have been on the receiving end of physical assaults by one's role models. I have always been so very glad those days are largely over and that intelligent, loving parents now seek more creative styles of disciplining their children.
In light of behaviour I see among young people today, I would argue that the permissive philosophy that has reigned the last decade or two has resulted in an inconsiderate and ill-mannered generation.
I agree that we have a far more "permissive philosophy" which is a rather nice way of saying that parents are far more inclined to "buy" their children and to use those purchases to assuage their own consciences for not spending any kind of quality time with the kids. However, I don't believe that the previous use of physical discipline when a child acted out, made up for the lack of "quality time" either...
In fact, I think that the problem stems from the false self-esteem that children are given to feel. They are taught to feel good about themselves for simply breathing and having a pulse. Instead of being taught to perform acts of integrity and character, they are taught that their existence entitles them to assert their rights while not having to capture any of the responsibilities that are intrinsic to those rights. Good parenting takes time and many couples are so busy working and playing themselves that they are flinging material things at their kids instead of actually parenting.
We are a hedonistic, self-centred, egotistical society. It's all "me first" and "what about me" and "where's mine" and "anything goes"... How is a child to learn true self-esteem and how to function in a society that is so disordered when they have so few role models???
Do you believe that physical discipline is an effective technique for teaching children right from wrong? If so, how physical should the discipline be? (I used to get the wooden spoon, until I hid them all in the couch)
I think people who hit their children should be charged with assault and secondarily, for the inability to be creative enough to find gentle and effective ways to teach. Adults are not allowed to approach one another aggressively without facing serious legal repercussions but that's only one reason parents shouldn't hit. The other reason is that part of our teachings should always include the child being taught that no one - NO ONE - has the right to touch their body without their express consent. How does a child learn this if parents are permitted to "use" the child's body to express displeasure or to "teach" a child. There would be a lot fewer rapes and a lot fewer assaults if a child was taught from the outset that using one's body for anything other than good healthy activities or to live in, is to desanctify the temple they are given to house their spirits. In my view, you cannot teach this while using physical discipline.
Are the results of these opposing techniques reflected in identifiable age groups; enough to prove one methodology is more successful than another?
I don't think anything can be so easily weighed and measured where raising children and the outcome is concerned. At any given point in time, there are children becoming wonderful adults and some, well... not. But I think that the society of adults needs to seriously clean up their own act before they start expecting the children to be "more" than we have ever been. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/12/2008 3:49:47 PM |
In a discussion with some colleagues of similar vintage regarding the discipline received at school and at home when we were kids, compared with what is allowed today, we concurred that the pendulum might be swinging back to allow a little stricter punishment. And, it might need to.
I think the trend is definitely that kids in Canada are LESS disciplined in any way now than before, and it is bad. That observation about permissive, inconsiderate and ill-mannered behaviour is spot-on. I taught high school in Hong Kong for a few years, and that was one of the more common things teachers commented on there. They can and do discipline kids who get out of line (almost never physically), and they are very noticaebly better behaved than kids coming out of Canadian schools.
Do you believe that physical discipline is an effective technique for teaching children right from wrong? If so, how physical should the discipline be? (I used to get the wooden spoon, until I hid them all in the couch)
Physical discipline might be effective, but if so I don't think it's because it is physical. More likely it's just because it's ritualistic. My mother did spank me when I was a kid, but I don't really recall it ever hurting nor consider that I was abused. It was just an unmistakeable way of letting me know that I had done something wrong.
Do you believe that the no-contact, psychological approach has been effective in raising the current generation of kids and teaching them right from wrong?
Not that simple... whether it's effective, better or worse depends on the details. Physical abuse is clearly wrong (meaning punishment which does actual physical damage or trains the kid to be scared or angry in general). The psychological approach seems better but can do just as much damage in the long run, mental and physical. A famous case in point: Jim Morrison (lead singer for the Doors, for those younger people among us) was raised in a house that didn't believe in physical discipline, long before the trend we're discussing here. Instead, his parents believed in "dressing down." When he did something wrong they would make him stand up while they shouted abusive comments at him and humiliated him. Result? One messed up kid who hated his parents and stopped speaking to them as soon as he could, and eventually killed himself with excessive pleasure-seeking behaviour. We could probably find just as many non-star-studded examples looking around at normal people, if we could only see all that had been said to them.
I personally have no kids, but if I did I wouldn't resort to spanking or smacking because I do think it trains them to see hitting people as normal, even if just in a small way. That doesn't mean I would be completely unphysical. If, say, my kid refused to give a bus seat to an old person I would be quite OK with making them stand all the way through dinner, to get a better appreciation for what they had done. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/13/2008 12:36:07 AM | A friend of mine uses the wooden spoon 'technique' with her kids, and I have to say their behavior is no different after their punishment, they seem to learn nothing from it. Maybe its all in consistency?
I rarely spank my kids and I find that since spanking isn't common in our house, it isn't really needed.
If a parent requires a tool to punish their kids they(the parents) may be the ones in need of discipline.
My hand or consequences do the trick well enough in our house. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/13/2008 5:01:59 AM | I started out as a parent saying I would never spank my kids buy them toy guns or use disposable nappies. I'm sorry to say I failed in all 3 departments but I do believe it's possible to get positive results without corporal punishment.
I think spanking my kids hurt me more than it hurt them. I always felt so low after doing so. I do believe that smacking works but I think there are better alternatives. Consistency is the key to good discipline.
There is a very fine line, when it comes to a fully grown adult smacking a small child, between to reasonable force (if there is such a thing) & brutality. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/13/2008 8:53:51 AM | This really is a great topic and one I am sure is very near and dear to most posters my age as I think we (as children) were on the (sorry about the phrase) Tail end of this type of discipline.
I got the wooden spoon, the plastic hair brush, the belt, the hand, at school the strap, the cane and verbal assaults that would make a sailor blush. Did it have an adverse effect?? Maybe, I really don't know. I was kind of a "rebel" and many issues in my childhood were difficult due to having parents that had chemical imbalances and one who thought he was God. But I have to accept that there was enough education thrown in to teach me the subtle differences between right and wrong.
To me it is all about communication and we can communicate in many ways beside verbal. When I was hit/spanked I generally assumed there was a reason although my young age might have kept me from a true understanding of the nuances involved and or the intended lesson.
With that in mind, I guess the fact that I choose to have dialogue with my kids when there is a problem, might point to my true feelings of corporal punishment.
There was one time when I caught my son choking my daughter and I proceeded to show him what it was like to have someone so much bigger wrap his hands around their throat. I did not apply any pressure but I sure gave him a scare and showed him what it was like to be on the receiving end was like. Needless to say he never did that again. Right or wrong, I acted on instinct.
Parenting is probably the most difficult job in the world as (to borrow from Dolores) new mfg's without any experience with the product, it takes a lot of care and attention to get the product right. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/13/2008 10:56:33 AM | Sally you hit the nail on the head. Short and sweet. Violence only teaches violence, there really is no excuse to abuse our children. Saying that, when repeating yourself is exhausted then a light swat on the hiney to get their attention may be OK, it should all be age appropriate.
My mom was fairly violent, there was the wooden spoon, the belt, the kneeling on dry beans and a punch in the forehead (I was 13 and didn't want to go to an ethnic dance). But verbal abuse is just as horrible to live with. My dad was a good parent, he was direct and you always knew where you stood, he taught me a lot, but not always home to be my protector.
When my children were young and acted up in public, we went home, it didn't happen often, they were told that if they acted badly that we would not go on excursions again.
I received some good advice when I was pregnant with my first, 'teach them from the start, never hit their little hands as they are delicate. Don't move your nice things, teach them NO and DO NOT TOUCH. Praise these little gifts often and tell them you love them daily. It worked for 2 of the 3.
We are human and are apt to make some mistakes, there is a lot of help available via books, support groups and even counseling. As much as we are responsible to be our children's teachers and protectors they are here to teach us as well. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/13/2008 10:59:49 AM | ^^^
As much as we are responsible to be our children's teachers and protectors they are here to teach us as well.
Nicely put!!!  | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/13/2008 11:07:09 AM | Don't move your nice things, teach them NO and DO NOT TOUCH.
Oh please! this was my 80 year old mother's brag/ stand and how she raised us.
"I will not adjust my life and home to children! THEY will adjust to me!"
It meant saying NO almost non stop through our entire toddler years(short attention span strong drive to explore)
and meant the same for my child when he visited. NO rapidly becomes almost meaningless and for the few it doesn't it is a real curiosity killer.
Baby proofing is common sense and allows for the natural exploration tangent
kids go on in their environment at various stages in their lives and is an innate drive which is HEALTHY
and integral to their sound development.
I have raised many toddlers besides my own and the breakables come back out when they have done with that stage!
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/13/2008 12:19:33 PM | " Don't move your nice things, teach them NO and DO NOT TOUCH."
A person that takes this advice better have unlimited money to replace those "nice things" because they will need replacing almost weekly. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/13/2008 12:38:03 PM | Don't move your nice things, teach them NO and DO NOT TOUCH. Praise these little gifts often and tell them you love them daily.
What a waste of Time sermonizing, threatening or spanking them. You are not always there to watch them every Second of the Day, so move Items out of their Reach. End of Story, nice and simple. | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/13/2008 12:54:12 PM |
There was one time when I caught my son choking my daughter and I proceeded to show him what it was like to have someone so much bigger wrap his hands around their throat. I did not apply any pressure but I sure gave him a scare and showed him what it was like to be on the receiving end was like. Needless to say he never did that again. Right or wrong, I acted on instinct.
Having been physically and sexually abused as a child by an alcoholic father, I can tell you without a doubt that this is the stuff memories are made of... | |
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| The Wooden Spoon and Right and Wrong
Posted: 10/13/2008 1:59:56 PM |
There was one time when I caught my son choking my daughter and I proceeded to show him what it was like to have someone so much bigger wrap his hands around their throat. I did not apply any pressure but I sure gave him a scare and showed him what it was like to be on the receiving end was like. Needless to say he never did that again. Right or wrong, I acted on instinct.
Having been physically and sexually abused as a child by an alcoholic father, I can tell you without a doubt that this is the stuff memories are made of...
Would you care to add how exactly you would correlate the two things? | |
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