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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Life on Other Planets? YES????      Home login  
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 yecats8
Joined: 11/29/2008
Msg: 51
Life on Other Planets? YES????Page 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
By allowing the beings on Earth to live with many variants, that allows them to come into "truth" on their own terms.

To acquire thoughts and beliefs on your own terms, makes them as strong as concrete, if not stronger.

Perhaps that is why.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 52
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Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/4/2009 1:28:40 AM

By allowing the beings on Earth to live with many variants, that allows them to come into "truth" on their own terms.

To acquire thoughts and beliefs on your own terms, makes them as strong as concrete, if not stronger.

Perhaps that is why.


Perhaps I missed the specific post to which this is a response, but my only response to this would be:

"Ummmm, Whut?"
 nickolysseus
Joined: 5/25/2008
Msg: 53
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Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/4/2009 1:54:22 AM
Re the Post

Life on Other Planets?
a) It depends on one's definition of "life", philosophically speaking
b) there will be for sure when we get the tech to build colonies there.

 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 54
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/6/2009 4:17:06 AM

There is no evidence to support life on other planets.


There's evidence and there's evidence. There's more circumstantial evidence than you can shake a stick at. Pretty hard to ignore don't you think? People have wound up on death row based on nothing but circumstantial evidence. That's why criminal defense lawyers LOVE to have scientists and engineers in their juries. No offense, but if it walks, talks and sounds like a duck, occam where are you....


I can't for a moment believe we wouldn't find a way to feel superior and try to impress our ways of thinking on something or other on them!


You can bet our first order of business was to convince them they need a Walmart in every city, a McDonald's on every block. Second, we would lust after their weaponry and technology and it would be bought or stolen. That just seems to be our nature. Business as usual. Perhaps we're not nearly, sufficiently, spiritually evolved enough to meet our star visitor friends. Personally, I don't think we're even near ready. We're still extremely uncivilized and inhuman as a race. We haven't changed all that much from the time when we lived in caves. We just have nicer cars and better furnished caves but the the overall paradigm remains pretty much the same. We repeatedly ignore history consequently, we're doomed to repeat our mistakes. Why would THEY want us out "there"? What do we bring to the table but grief?

Maybe they have cultures that don't use money as a means of exchange. Maybe stealing, robbing, looting just isn't in their vocabulary and they've learned to evolve in leaps and bounds because of it. If YOU were part of those cultures, would you want to invite "earthlings" over for dinner?


Its assumptions upon assumptions upon assumptions, with no actual evidence then the good vibes you get from assuming that everything we've observed is wrong.


YOU'RE whole argument is based on assumptions upon assumption. You assume other need to be brought up in conditions uniquely suitable for YOUR BIRTH and EVOLUTION, but NOT theirs. That's kind of snobbish don't you think? Who says they need to breath oxygen? Who says they have to be thin skinned like us? Who says they aren't reptilian? Who says they even have to have corporeal bodies? Don't you think it kind of reeks of arrogance to presume that the ONLY sentient life MUST have a torso, head, two arms and two legs and drive nice cars (or spacecraft). You need to think outside the box.


Yeah, I know, someone's gonna come back with 'the spark of life' argument but that's another topic


Let's definitely not go there :)


Life on Other Planets?
a) It depends on one's definition of "life"


That's where the arrogance comes in. For them, it can only be life (life as WE know it), because they need blah blah blah. We simply don't know what "they" need to survive and thrive. We don't even know what WE need half the time. And as a global community of man, we've done a pretty lousy job of it IMHO.


By allowing the beings on Earth to live with many variants, that allows them to come into "truth" on their own terms.

To acquire thoughts and beliefs on your own terms, makes them as strong as concrete, if not stronger.

Perhaps that is why.


I couldn't agree more.
 simon2199
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 55
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/6/2009 9:39:51 AM

You can bet our first order of business was to convince them they need a Walmart in every city, a McDonald's on every block.

Haha! I predict a legal battle between MacDonalds and the Mars' tourist board over the golden arches.

Moving the discussion on, where would we go? I suspect somewhere relatively close in the short term. Perhaps Mars or Titan?
 jetfuel1975
Joined: 6/18/2008
Msg: 56
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/6/2009 7:49:25 PM
Very interesting, but... I find it ironic how so-called intelligent people try to see just how much other people will trust in their knowledge, especially when something like this is found. All of the claims, let's remember, are pure speculation. If one of it's life lines is water, that shoots a hole in the living in complete isolation statement because you first need to define a living organism. H2O stands for 2 hydrogen bonded to 1 oxygen. So I have a hard time accepting the survives without Oxygen theory. Fish require Oxygen, just in a different form than us. Also, when cleaning or filtering H2O one of the steps is to ad oxygen by ariation. This creates a biological form of acidic bacteria. Think about it. Due to this I somewhat kind of need to think that there are life forms that we haven't been able to comprehend already in water.
peace
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 57
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/7/2009 3:16:53 PM
>>>There's evidence and there's evidence.

What evidence?

Lets go through, shall we;

Has there been made a discovery of other worlds that support life? No.

Has there been made a discovery of other worlds that can support what we define as the required habitat for life? No. Everywhere we look, all planets are hositle to what we would define the requirements for life.(save Earth, of course)

Has there been made reports of people experiencing what they believe to be aliens? Yes.

Does the fact that people believe they saw aliens mean they most definately witnessed aliens? No.

>>>No offense, but if it walks, talks and sounds like a duck, occam where are you....

Well, as far as our observations tells us, Life is incredibly rare, requires a unique and equally rare set of circumstances to both be created and survive, and space travel between solar systems is basically impossible and infeasible.

You wish to defy everything the facts tells us, saying what you believe is more likely than what we are actually observing.

>>>We're still extremely uncivilized and inhuman as a race.

Like I mentioned earlier....is there a word for the belief that all of humanity is inherently evil? Because it seems odd to me that often the ones who are certain there are aliens are equally certain of our unworthiness to meet them. I wonder why that is...

>>>Maybe they have cultures that don't use money as a means of exchange.

Natch. You believe we are all evil because we do not follow your political idealoglies- that because each individual is free to live for their own interests rather than live through another person, we are all evil.

>>>YOU'RE whole argument is based on assumptions upon assumption.

And yours isn't? You assume our observations over the speed is light is faulty, that our observations of the stars and the planets are wrong- you shrug off actual science not because it fails to provide evidence, but because it fails to prove you right, so clearly our observations must be wrong.

>>>You assume other need to be brought up in conditions uniquely suitable for YOUR BIRTH and EVOLUTION, but NOT theirs. That's kind of snobbish don't you think?

Snobby? Please, don't use personal attacks- weither or not I am 'snobby' doesn't disprove a single thing I've said.

As for the conditions they need to survive- it based on our only example of life- Earths. Is it possible that life exists in other forms? Yes. But does that disprove anything, or is it just a fun "What If" scenerio? We could assume that life could be on the acid scarred mountainsides of Venus- but without any evidence to support it, its nothing more than a fun little logic game.

Also, we use Oxygen because its an incredibly powerful and abundant element.

>>>Who says they aren't reptilian?

If they are Reptilian doesn't disprove that they can exist in another enviroment- Reptilians need oxygen, water, and a stable enviroment just as any species- hell, being cold blooded makes them more fragile to hositle enviroments.

>>>Who says they even have to have corporeal bodies?

The fact that all life in the known universe requires a phsyical existence to exist, for one.

>>>We simply don't know what "they" need to survive and thrive.

Neither do you! We only have one example of life to go on- should we assume that everything we know about the requirements of life is faulty for no other reason than the fear of being called arrogant for following what our observations tells us is true?
 OTTO BONN
Joined: 4/20/2006
Msg: 58
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Life on Other Planets
Posted: 1/7/2009 8:09:27 PM
Well, the Hubble Deep Field image does indeed reveal such a vast number of Galaxies that the sheer number makes some think there has to be life out there. However, since the creation of the Universe, life must have appeared on one planet first, and that planet could be ours.

Like the first few microbes that evolved into all the forms of life on Earth, we could do the same and be the sole source of life that will, in the far distant future, populate the Cosmos.

 nickolysseus
Joined: 5/25/2008
Msg: 59
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Life on Other Planets
Posted: 1/7/2009 8:29:14 PM
Re the Opost

Have we ever considered that life as we define it may not be "life" in the Universe? That our type of "life" may be an oddity or even a bug in the Universe?

IMO, it is more important to find in the next few thousands of years ways of inhabiting other planets, in our solar system as well as outside, so that we can hedge our bets, eg when our Sun stops shining, I know it is billions of years away, but how long will it take us to invent human travel to other solar systems?
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 60
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Life on Other Planets
Posted: 1/8/2009 6:31:57 PM
There could well be other life forms on other planets. The universe is HUGE. We don't have to worry about meeting "aliens" though because the interstellar distances are just too great to make it possible to travel between the stars. I am not sure that we can get around space easily like they do in the "Star Trek" stories. I love Star Trek, but I also realize that realistically, it is highly unlikely that a human will meet a person from another planet. Although I have met my share of people who are wacky enough to seem like they are from other planets
 10of6
Joined: 8/27/2008
Msg: 61
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/9/2009 5:46:34 PM

Because it gets by without oxygen, it could offer clues as to whether life exists on other planets.
Okay, this is not exactly how it works. The logic is there, but it's a little twisted.

It's not that it gets by without oxygen--there are lots of organisms that do not--it's that there is WATER. Water seems to be the ideal matrix for mixing up a life-inducing soupy swill of amino acids, primed and ready to splurge and go out on a date with each other.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 62
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Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/10/2009 7:41:17 PM
Water has oxygen in it. Hello????
 10of6
Joined: 8/27/2008
Msg: 63
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/11/2009 11:31:30 AM
So does carbon monoxide, and a larger proportion of it.
 13yankee
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 64
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/11/2009 12:12:28 PM
Well,

Couple of points:

1) We conceive that all life requires oxygen - because we have not evidence to the contrary. There is no law that states that life cannot be created/sustained via methane, chlorine or any other existing element - or for that matter any element we have yet to discover. All attempts convey life as basically humanistic (i.e. breaths, lives, dies, et cetera). But what if life could be defined differently?

2) When you look at science, it's about hypothesis, testing, validation, acceptance into theory. Bu science never proves anything - it only disproves. As an example, 6000 years ago we 'knew' the earth was round, 600 years ago (exception: sailors) we 'knew' the eath was flat and was the center of the universe. 160 years ago we 'knew' that splitting atoms was impossible. But what makes science so certain it is correct this time?

3) Honestly, based on strict probabilities, the chance of other life is remote. 4.5 billion years ago, life was limited to single-celled orgaizisms which seemingly spawned from nothing (no one knows why), somewhere around 600 million years ago (no one knows why) that life evolved into multi-cellular organisms. 300 million years ago that life evolved into what are considered to be complex multi-cellular organisms, and for some reason, life has continued to evolve.

Call it competition, desired expansion, or for supperiority over other species (or genus for that matter) - the point is the same. The sedular probability of life creating, evolving, and expanding is not only remote, it is infantesimal.
 nickolysseus
Joined: 5/25/2008
Msg: 65
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Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/11/2009 12:56:22 PM
IMO a more puzzling issue than whether there is life on some other planets in the universe, is why is there not life in most of the planets? Why is life such a rarity among the sum of all planets? That is IMO a good philosophical question. The "why" non-life is the norm for most planets!! What does it tell us about "life"? The Universe? Everything?
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 66
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/11/2009 2:46:26 PM
>>>But what if life could be defined differently?

And the problem with that? The second and third words in that quote

"What If"

And that is literally the beginning and end of the evidence of that claim. Its not an observation of the universe, but playing mind games. There is nothing to imply that life can survive in an oxygen devoid enviroment- and to say otherwise is nothing more than conjecture. We will NOT gain greater understanding the universe is we come to our conclusions based on just making shit up and expecting the universe to match our expectations.

>>> All attempts convey life as basically humanistic (i.e. breaths, lives, dies, et cetera). But what if life could be defined differently?

Are you actually promoting the absurbity of a life that does not die? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

>>>Bu science never proves anything - it only disproves.

My, what a broad assumption. When people proposed ideas like evolution and plate tectonics, was it in an attempt to prove these ideas right, or prove other ideas wrong?

>>>600 years ago (exception: sailors) we 'knew' the eath was flat and was the center of the universe. 160 years ago we 'knew' that splitting atoms was impossible. But what makes science so certain it is correct this time?

That line of thinking is ludacris. That because we didn't always have it right, that the scientific method is wrong? Even when we came to conclusions based not on the scientific method, but making shit up as you are doing? Isn't that more evidence that YOU could be wrong, since you are coming up with conclusions that, in the past when we came to conclusions using simular methods, we were found to be wrong?

We do not have evidence of alien life. We do not have evidence of that life can survive on other planets. We do not have evidence that life can survive in an oxygen devoid enviroment. But if we are wrong, it will be through the observation of the universe that the mistakes will be found- not broad assumptions. It was assumptions that made us believe that the world was flat, and the Earth was the center of the universe.
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 67
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/12/2009 12:05:42 AM

Why is life such a rarity among the sum of all planets?


I assume you're referring only to the "sum of all planets" in OUR galaxy. We don't really know anything about the others up close and personal.
 observer902
Joined: 1/13/2009
Msg: 68
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/19/2009 6:42:55 AM
Due to the distances involved, and the light speed limitations, we'll never know. This will just remain a subject for speculative fiction to explore. For all we know al these newly discovered planets in other solar systems, have already blown themselves up, but the light has yet to reach us yet.
 observer902
Joined: 1/13/2009
Msg: 69
Life on Other Planets
Posted: 1/23/2009 4:13:08 AM

Well, the Hubble Deep Field image does indeed reveal such a vast number of Galaxies that the sheer number makes some think there has to be life out there. However, since the creation of the Universe, life must have appeared on one planet first, and that planet could be ours.


The problem I have with a lot of Hubble type images, is that they are "enhanced". What does that really mean. Touched up, fabricated, colourized???? Just brigs out the skeptic in me.
 observer902
Joined: 1/13/2009
Msg: 70
Life on Other Planets
Posted: 1/23/2009 4:28:43 AM
IMO, it is more important to find in the next few thousands of years ways of inhabiting other planets, in our solar system as well as outside, so that we can hedge our bets, eg when our Sun stops shining, I know it is billions of years away, but how long will it take us to invent human travel to other solar systems?


Read some Arthur C Clarke .Song's of a distant Earth is a good novel that deals with travelling interstellar distances without goig beyong light speed. Mankind has the technology now to potentially travel to another solar system. The limiting factors are

1 - time, the travel time is enormous, even if you could get a vessel up to near light speed. At our current technological level , we'd be lucky to get to the nearest star system in under 100 years.

2 - psychological, is mankind mental capable of spending 50+ year isolated in a metal cocoon???? Think about it, how long could you spend cooped up with teh same 10 people?

3 - financial , everything comes down to money.

There are liekly countless others , but these three alone make it a none starter presently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel#The_difficulties_of_interstellar_travel


Here's an option though, build a big enough vessel, put all the criminal types inside, and blast it off for parts unknown. Well maybe Tau Ceti, as it is the furthest neighbouring star. Just so we don't bump into them in the next few centuries
 LakeCountyGal
Joined: 9/4/2008
Msg: 71
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/24/2009 6:19:56 PM
I think it's very possible that there is some form of life, or traces of former life on other planets. Why should we be so unique? To assume we are, has always seemed arrogant to me. Why couldn't another planet like Earth, exist in another galaxy somewhere? The Universe is so large, why would we be the only lifeforms in it? Seems like a literal "waste of space" if that were the case, you know?

I'm not sure if I believe in "aliens" and whatnot, but I do believe life could exist elsewhere.
 zaphod_trenchcoat
Joined: 1/21/2009
Msg: 72
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/25/2009 2:06:04 PM
Hello all

I am not a gambling man but the vast size of the universe must make the odds that life has been created elsewhere??

Someone wrote about due to this size the chances of meeting anyone has got to be small. Which i agree with.

I agree with what someone else wrote about, if these other life forms were so technological and (lets hope) socially advanced were to find us, would they think we are ready. I dont believe the human race are ready to meet any other lifeforms. The varied lifeforms on this planet and all the conflict between us clearly shows how incapable we are incorporating another one.

I am fascinated with all things 'space' and ofcourse would love to set foot on the moon for example. Finances is the biggest restriction. I would hate for a total stop to further 'space' stuff but i do wonder if we are throwing away money and resources (brain power too) which should be used in solving problems on this planet???
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 73
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Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/25/2009 2:25:17 PM

I am fascinated with all things 'space' and ofcourse would love to set foot on the moon for example. Finances is the biggest restriction. I would hate for a total stop to further 'space' stuff but i do wonder if we are throwing away money and resources (brain power too) which should be used in solving problems on this planet???


The last analysis I saw of the financial impact of the Apollo program was eleven dollars returned in tangible goods and benefits for every dollar spent. In fact, you know those battery-powered power tools, like drills, screwdrivers, etc...? those only exist because of Apollo. The same is true of the liquid oxygen systems that make life so much better for those suffering from emphysema and other lung diseases... Apollo CREATED them. Weather prediction and modeling? Most improvements come from the space programs... GPS? Space programs.

You see, investing money in "space" *is* solving problems on this planet.
 twister239
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 74
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/25/2009 3:17:35 PM
I have a grade 10 education behind me , dont beat me up to bad will ya..lol.

I think life most certainly excists out there , but not in the form of needing "planets" to survive on as we do. Where did it ever come from that they "need" a planet anyways ? There has alway been talk of alien visitors from beyond , yet we search the skies for years and see nothing in the form of life.
It seems to me that when we dream, we enter another dimention.
Simular to the way that "Gumby" used to do it on the cartoons , Gumby used to stick his head trough the walls to enter other dementions where he would be safe from the evil blockheads.
In our world, it is one final blink before we fall asleep then its into other dementions untill we awaken. Our bodies are not taken a zillion miles to another planet , we dream and explore other worlds with our minds , yet never leave the bed.
Could it be that when sightings occure, that perhaps these aliens have crossed over into "our" dimention for a brief minute , then in a blink of an eye be gone again...like gumby sticking his head through the wall...I know it all sounds silly but could it be that simple ?
Mankind has spent alot of money looking for life on "planets" , are we really that sure that is where its going to be found ?
I believe the answers are out there someplace
but something tells me that the real gig is not sitting on the surface of a planet waving at us..
Its staring us right in the face and within reach somehow
T
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 75
Life on Other Planets? YES????
Posted: 1/25/2009 4:35:29 PM
I hate to say the same thing over and over again, but then again, people keep presenting the same ideas over and over again- and if no one stands up to object to them, they will continue to perpetuate that these ideas are sound- and they're not;

>>>The Universe is so large, why would we be the only lifeforms in it?......but the vast size of the universe must make the odds that life has been created elsewhere??.....

The assumption that the universe has life because it is large is disproved by two factors; first and foremost, there is nothing proving the math is correct. It is entirely an assumption, and any results we get from it is not based on any actual facts, but arbitrary math that in no way should reflect reality, since you could put a million different factors or two, and neither would be closer to the truth since you are simply MAKING SHIT UP.

The second factor is observations; All our actual observations of the universe has shown a universe devoid of any and all life, as well as being entirely hostile to the only definite definition of life that we know of- our own.

Why is it arrogant to require evidence? Why is it somehow arrogant to depend on actual observations rather than making shit up? Why isn't it considered arrogant to look at the universe, the stars and the planets, and if our observations do not present alien life, then announce that all our observations must be flawed, because we haven't found evidence to defend your preconceived assumptions?

As I've said before- the assumption that the universe is full of intelligent life because it is big is exactly the same as the assumption that the oceans are full of mermaids because they are big. If all you need is possibilities to judge reality, then yes, mermaids are quite possible- life started in the oceans, there is more diverse life in the oceans, and the oceans are by far larger than the landmasses- if all we are talking about is whether or not something is likely, then it is far more likely that intelligent life would appear in the Oceans than on the land. But our observations disprove that notion. I suppose we should alter our actual observations to match your expectations of the universe?

>>> Why should we be so unique?

Huh?

I mean, we are unique. There is no doubt about it- with over 99.99% of all species being extinct, we are the only species to reach this level of intelligence. Statistically speaking, if we managed to find a planet with life, it would be incredibly unlikely to find another species that's intelligent.

Not to mention that assumes that intelligent life is the apex of evolution- and its not. Adaptive life is the apex. We really don't understand what caused intelligent life to appear, because in a long history of animals, its really a fluke- you could have a 100 different planets, leave them for 10 billion years, and maybe none of them would develop intelligent life. Life does not exist to create intelligent life, but adaptive, and there are far more adaptive life than intelligent(micro-organisms come to mind)

You want to talk about arrogance? Life has existed for approx 3.7 billion years on Earth- and of that 3.7 billion years, mankind has existed for only a fifth of a million of it- as a civilization, we've existed for not even 10,000 years. Meaning that Earth has continued without us for Three Billion, Six hundred Ninety Nine Million, Eight Hundred Thousand years. If we were to judge life on a system of a 24 hour clock, mankind would appear a few seconds before midnight.

And you expect- nay, demand- that the universe be filled with intelligent life, and belittle anyone who disagrees as vulgar? Isn't it arrogant to look at all the life that has ever appeared on Earth, and expect that the universe to be filled with the ones you only see currently?

>>>Seems like a literal "waste of space" if that were the case, you know?

And the universe has nothing to justify to you. It is literally a huge waste of space. Even if every single planet was brimming with life, the distances alone would make it a huge waste of space.
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