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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 11:22:29 AM | | if i had to work on a oil rig in the middle of hurricane- rich Gulf of Mexico, and expose myself to all the dangers of it, knowing that the oil rig could blow anytime, or be swept out to sea, after ' A PERECT STORM" scenario.... i would, underneath all the fairness, and equality, of this new society- resent those easy, laid- back apple pickers for their easy job, and be envious of them, because their harvest is only once a year!!! Whereas, my oil company keeps demanding me to pump more oil forever. Where is the equality and fairness ??????????????????// I AM AFRAID THIS NEW SOCIETY IS ALREADY DOOMED!!!!! | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 11:36:59 AM | {quote] I AM AFRAID THIS NEW SOCIETY IS ALREADY DOOMED
You haven't read the bit where the production of Apples and Oil has been automated.......society saved. 
It seems that the only real arguments for money is that it is the only true motivator.
It motivates people to do well, innovate or do menial jobs.
If this is the case, ask youself one question, well a couple actually.
1. What motivated me to choose my career path? .....odds on it wasn't the persuit of money
2. The last time I had a great idea, created something or solved a problem....was money my motivator?.....for me, these are things that make me feel good about myself.
We ARE a slave to money.
Read what it says on a bank note.
'I promise to pay the bearer, on demand, the sum of'
So you take it to the FED to demand your money and they give you...another bit of paper in exchange.
You demand your money again and they give you another bit of paper and so on.
Money only has a value because WE, me and you give it one but it's basically worthless. You are working for nothing....You're just not getting your fair share for your labours.
Only the rich want to maintain the status quo.
You may say, 'well, that's the motivation. To be rich and have everything.'
But if everything were free you would be rich and have everything. 
Someone pointed out about drug gangs.....how they buy status symbols rather that invest money for their future.
They too are victims of the control system. It's a system where opulence and greed are promoted.....seen to be a good thing.
They too are playing the game of status, to be viewed in a better light than their peers.
True, this panders to the basic human strive to be top dog but there is so, so many ways to be top dog than having the best stuff and more of it.
Like I say, this is a basic emotion and the powers that be know this.....what better way to prop up an elitist system than to make people believe they need stuff and status to be happy.
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 11:54:59 AM | | OK .... apples and oil are automated, no need for resentment on my part. Everything is free, and wonderful. etc. etc.- I would maybe, think i was better then the average apple- picker, because for being on the oil- rig , more specialized knowledge is needed. ...Therefore , an extraordinary intelligent person would maybe be ostracized and discriminated against by the rest of this society. He or she would certainly stand- out!!! What does this society do to the " few" intelligent ones?? Remeber, they are the few, who have figured out how this society works. What happens to them?? We really can't have them loose!! | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 12:14:43 PM | So you're saying, because you're more intelligent you deserve more?
The fact that you're in a job you love, all your needs are catered for and you live in a world without war, hunger, polution and injustice isn't enough reward?
Mmmmmmm.
Maybe my model does have a flaw | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 12:21:04 PM | This idea comes up from time to time and it's always the same.
Assign a value to your possessions. In a world without money you can't do that. So would you trade your PC for a single shoe ? In a world without money you might have to. If you need shoes but have a computer worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars then what's better ? : Trade your computer for a pair of shoes or trade your computer for money and buy shoes with plenty of cash left to spare.
We invented money for a reason and the simple reason was so that we could assign a more or less fixed value to any item.
Saying that as long as you work, everything will be provided for is a recipe for stagnation and eventually, civil unrest. First of all, who decides who gets what ? Secondly, what if people aren't happy with their "payment" ? Thirdly, why work hard ? Fourth , what if you don't want to work at all ? Actually , this line of questioning could go on indefinitely.
This would only work in a world where human nature was different.
The proof for this is obvious actually : Why would we put an end to war if there was no money ? When cattle are the most valuable possessions, that's what people fight over. Sometimes it's territory, sometimes it's religion, sometimes it's idealism, and so on. It's about power more often than not and what's that ? It's a manifestation of the desire to want more than you have. Who doesn't already have this characteristic ? Don't you want things you don't have ? I already know you do because you own things you don't need. | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 12:29:31 PM | | We have already seen what happens. It's called socialism and it does not work. | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 12:44:17 PM |
Assign a value to your possessions. In a world without money you can't do that.
Thats exactly the point....possessions have no value.....How can you trade something that has no value?
If you want pair of shoes you whip out your blackberry and order a pair and they are delivered within the hour.
You forget, we have people working on the whole infrastructure....for nothing remember......clever, well educated people who's motive is the advancement of society and the protection of the planet.
To come up with more ingenius ways to make everything more effieciently with less enviromental impact. Every week we'd be coming up with new and better products.
In what way would this lead to stagnation or civil unrest?
Edit:^^^^^^^^^^^
We have already seen what happens. It's called socialism and it does not work.
Socialism is practiced around the world actually. Most European nations are socialist by nature and they do OK......The 'bailout' is an act of socialism.....to prop up a flawed capitalist system.
Please read msg 6
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 1:16:03 PM | What if you don't like your job ? We can't all be artists after all. What if you don't like giving away the fruits of your labours to people who use it for things you don't agree with ? Are you going to get down on your hands and knees in a sewer, poke through shi! and vomit while some guy sits at home with a paintbrush in his hand ? Can you think of somebody who likes that ? Well, somebody's got to do this stuff and if you're not going to offer them any incentive to do it then you're not going to have many job applicants. So what are you going to do when the whole sewer system collapses from disrepair ? The vast majority of jobs are not exactly what kids dream of doing when they grow up. The only reason these jobs get done today is because we give them a monetary incentive. If everybody gets the same thing then you'd better be prepared to come up with something better than "For the good of society" if you still want to see the jobs get done.
And what about wasted talent ? The finest potential surgeon in the world might be happier picking apples in an orchard. Who replaces that surgeon ? The guy who wants to be a surgeon but doesn't actually have the skill to do it ? How many people can replace that surgeon ?
Stagnation is an obvious outcome because there's no incentive to strive for greater. What for ? Since when did we all start caring about the guy half-way around the world ? And why would we start when we know that everything he needs is already provided for anyway ? There wouldn't be a Blackberry to whip out because there'd be no need for one. You could simply make a call and demand your shoes. Of course, if the person on the other end decides you've already got enough shoes according to the screen they're looking at, I guess you're S.O.L. And why would they even ration them in the first place ? Because, after all, we're trying to cut down on waste for the good of society
As for civil unrest...well, what you're positing requires a bureaucracy. The largest bureaucracy ever created in fact. We have to track people after all to make sure they're working. Not only do we have to make sure they're working but we have to make sure they're doing the things they're told to do. They can't be allowed to choose for themselves what they want to do because if they are allowed that option, they simply won't do most of the jobs that exist today. Do you really think "the good of the world" is going to inspire some guy on an assembly line to stick around for an extra two or three hours after his shift is done ? I don't and you know perfectly well that he won't want to either. "But we need him to !". So are you going to force him then ? You're going to have to.What do you suppose will happen once enough people are forced to do jobs they don't like doing and aren't allowed to leave ? No, they can't leave their jobs until replacements are found for them and there are openings where they want to go. | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 1:32:02 PM | Much kudos on being so motivated but you'd have saved yourself the trouble if you'd read my replies to the same questions.
Thanks anyway.
Now I've got to make this longer to get past the 2 out of 10 filter. | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 2:12:51 PM | A world with out money is possible, but the elite will just end up controlling food and water. It would be better and easier to have a world without the money that is currently in circulation, which is the only thing that the elite have. Take their money away and they all come down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PNTBLOp_gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff2h6s88yDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLQ2Gybav3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euY28WMdS6Q | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 3:37:59 PM | | if everything was provided to us, and there was no money to use, or needed- what would happen to our creativity and imaginations??? I remember a Star Trek episode, that sort of reminds me of this post- it was about those that had everything provided for them , lived in the stratosphere, and were the fancy society ,of that planet, Capt. James Kirk visited. I FORGOT WHAT THE GROUND DWELLERS WERE CALLED, TROGOLYTES,MAYBE!! i think the stratosphere dwellers were dying, because the " bad air" from the trogolytes kept rising, invading the stratosphere. Both cultures, the stratosphere people, and the trogolytes had NO MONEY!!!, but lots of other issues . | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 3:45:42 PM | 
Did you know that Star Trek was based in a future world without money..... A money based system was deemed primative
Being a closet trekky I can vaguely remember said episode.
If you think about it, creativity and imagination is stifled by money. | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 4:56:57 PM | Money in itself is not evil. The way that money is used to control and suppress is what needs to change. Lack of transparency is part of the problem. Greed is part of the problem. Being bombarded with advertising designed to make us feel inadequate is part of the problem. Cumbersome and inefficient legal systems are part of the problem. The fact that Bush can create $700,000,000,000 worth of non-existent money just MIGHT be part of the problem....
Our world has more than enough food, water, energy, jobs, knowledge and ability to easily sustain every person on the globe. We just need to break the inertia associated with our current monetary system. (debt/ownership/entitlement)
We need a high-octane version of the barter system to allow people to take back control of their lives. Imagine this scenario:
Build a new "country" on a chunk of land. Things will need building. We need a school. The workers need houses. An hour spent laying bricks for the school can be exchanged for an hour of painting in your OWN house. Of course, more people would rather paint than bricklay, right? Every person in the community would get to vote on how much each job would get "paid". Because of the conditions that welders endure and the health risks, welder would get 3 hours credit for one hour worked. The voting public can decide the value of every task that gets performed inside of this country. This isn't really much different from a cash society, except for 2 things. Transparency and lack of debt. Each person would also be required to pay "taxes" by donating ~10% of their workable hours to the governing body.
Every aspect of the society should get voted on. Not everybody should be able to vote on every issue, so we would vote in people to vote FOR us on issues like how far apart to space fire hydrants or what kind of trees get planted in our parks. Most of us would have no clue how to calculate optimal fire hydrant spacing. We would vote in engineers for these jobs.
Voting would decide EVERYTHING in this society. Each person would have a personal web page with their work history, personal info, assets and voting history available for ALL to see. Our elected officials would CONSTANTLY be getting voted on. YOU would constantly be getting voted on by your co-workers. Once an official's approval rating goes below 50%, they would be voted out, with 3 month's notice. (unless we vote differently) Once 50% of your co-workers decide you aren't wanted on a job site, you will be forced to leave. The same would apply to letting people move into a neighborhood.
The judicial system would be dependent on voting. Lawyers and judges would conduct trials online without all the trappings of the current legal system. Common sense and intuition would be practiced. Imagine a messy divorce trial involving 2 kids, 2 vehicles, a house, etc. No longer would there be a 6 week waiting period for the man to provide a statement of income. No longer would there be a dispute over WHO put HOW MUCH into the house before the union began. All relevant info will be available online. Not happy with the verdict? Vote to have the asset-distribution formula changed.
Not happy with the wait times to see our over-worked doctors(who make 20 times the standard labour rate)? Vote to have the amount of schooling reduced for doctors. Vote to allow PhD's from other countries to become doctors. Vote to allow a 2 year technical diploma to be sufficient to reset broken bones and apply stitches.
How would we insure our vehicles? Not a problem! Nobody would "own" vehicles. All vehicles would be community-owned. All vehicles would be equipped with video cameras and GPS. If you got in an accident, your collision would be viewed by a panel and compensation/penalty would be VOTED on. No more $30,000,000 settlements with 1/2 going to law firm!
There are 1000's of aspects to consider, but it CAN BE DONE. If need be, we can start the country on the ocean until the concept catches on. I've got a couple rolls of stainless steel wire. Anybody got some styrofoam blocks and some fishing rods? | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 5:52:16 PM |
Did you know that Star Trek was based in a future world without money..... A money based system was deemed primative
It didn't hurt that they could make things materialize seemingly out of thin air by using replicators. Until we are able to pull that rabbit out of a hat we will still need people; people to produce materials, people to manipulate those materials, people to construct using those materials and people to market and sell those materials. There must still be a form of equivalent exchange for goods and services. We cant push a button and receive for free something as simple as a cup of coffee nor as complex as a nanoprobe.
By the way, how does money stifle creativity? If anything lack of compensation for innovation makes people chose not to create. Those who would create would be for their own benefit, at least until someone comes and tries to take their creation from him because he "owes it to society."  | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 6:50:51 PM |
Did you know that Star Trek was based in a future world without money..... A money based system was deemed primative
How did I just know that eventually a link to Star Trek was coming in this topic? Live long and prosper with no incentive to produce and no money to buy anything anyway. | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 7:28:28 PM | Wonder no longer!!! There's already been a story written about a "moneyless" society.
...Also he compels all, both small and great, both the rich and the poor, both free and slave, to be marked with an inscription on their right hands or on their foreheads. So that NO ONE will have power to buy or sell UNLESS he bears the stamp, the name of the beast or the number of his name.m Here is a discernment call for the wisdom of interpretation. Let anyone who has intelligence calculate the number of the beast, for it is a human number; his number is 666. | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 8:15:31 PM |
Much kudos on being so motivated but you'd have saved yourself the trouble if you'd read my replies to the same questions.
No I wouldn't have. You never actually explained how you'd get the dirty , difficult work done other than to say that you'd build a machine to take care of it. First of all, if we could do that, we already would have. Secondly, only one machine would ever be able to accomplish all the tasks nobody today wants to do and that machine is decades away (as long as everything keeps going the way it is) That machine would be a sentient robot. Until you can come up with one of those, you might as well be wiggling your nose and saying shazam.
In fact, sentient robots bring about all new problems of their own. They can't be completely sentient or they might decide that they don't like doing the sh!t work anymore than we do. On the other hand, they'd have to be able to learn or they'd be no good to us. Not to mention that we'd have to have some of them be able to kill because somebody's still got to defend us from ourselves. I realize that you think all wars are fought over money alone but I can give you a pretty long list of conflicts that had nothing to do with cash or assets of any kind. More importantly though, even if you refuse to believe that people are willing to fight for religious beliefs or political ideology, what makes you think people are going to stop wanting more power in one form or another ? | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 11:30:27 PM | Have you heard the expression "Time is Money"?
Conversely, money is ultimately a measure of time (coupled with rate, of course).
Money is akin to portable time. You give someone some and you don't have to put the time it doing it yourself.
Some lazy b*stard is always going to get a little greedy no matter what the medium of trade. He'll lie and cheat his way up the ladder like any other would-be monarch then bribe people to beat up others until they give him some of their produce or labor and call it "taxation".
Or some greedy bureaucrat will skim off the top and short someone else down the line so he can get quietly rich.
It doesn't matter what medium you use - dollars, dubloons, shamrocks, mouse turds, salt (You do know the story of salt and how it's related to the word "salary", right?)...You're going to have to reduce trade down to some convenient medium of exchange and the whole greed thing starts all over again.
I think it's a primate/territorial thing - greed, that is. How many of the hundreds of societies on earth do you know of that have never had some equivalent to money? I know of one or two at most. | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 11:47:57 PM | explain to me how a world without money would pay the scum sucking middleman?
ooops............. nevermind............. lol | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/12/2008 11:55:48 PM | If we lived on an island with no contact with the outside world and I grew vegetables and you hunted game we would trade and barter, right? If you sat on your butt all day and did no hunting then I would not share my green beans with you. If you want green beans then you must pay me in wild bore meat. Now add in a hundred people and still barter is doable. Still, if you don't hunt you get no veggies from me or nice hand made clothes from the island clothes maker or a blow job from the island hooker. Now add in 6 billion people. We can't barter, it's not doable. So we use money to keep track of our produced goods.
When I get a job after college I will produce and I will get paid in money, not sheep. Still, it's all just a sophisticated barter system.
You say work and everything is free? How? Who gives you the free stuff? Someone has to make it. That someone wants something. Money is the standard we use to reward those who produce.
If there were no money people would be worse off because they would have to have extremely large houses to keep all their sheep and cows in for bartering.
A moo moo here and a baa baa there...... | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/13/2008 12:40:38 AM | Well currently under our system we do have a way to get all of our work done at extremely low prices and it maintains our standard of living very high so that whenever anyone suggests an alternative to the "tried and true" capitalist way of life we can laugh them off as kooks and communists and say, screw you hippie, our system is working just fine.
It's called dark people.
Yep, that's right. For the last 400 years or so, we here in the West have found that these "dark people" have made excellent workers that breed quickly thanks to the exportation of our trademarked "Catholicism" that tells them it is a mortal sin to use birth control and a way of life we have created by enslaving them and keeping the means of production and better valued land out of their control so they are resolved to a subsistence living producing cash crops for us, producing our resources and now, thanks to the IMF, World Bank and major corporations that don't want to pay a living wage to anyone, provide health benefits or any of the benefits of the first world to anyone outside it, we can screw them even better with a new program called "outsourcing" so that they can do jobs that Westerners refuse to do.
Meanwhile, even back home, the gap between the haves and have nots continues to widen like a house on fire and people continue to assert that the monetarist system is working. But as Chris Rock noted so aptly, "It's alright...cuz you're all white."
Thanks "dark people" for helping others convince themselves that all things are still equal.
Next, a few recipies from Mr. Swift on how to make an excellent stew out of Irish Children and a few leftover potatoes you may have around the house.
And a little more seriously, an answer on how a system without money might work:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
I have to ask some of those of you who seemingly have such a party-in-your-pants for capitalism or a hate on for some form of control in the economy, socialism or even mixed economy if a) you have ever known poverty in your life, have ever seen real poverty before, realize the true impact of capitalism on the rest of the world outside North America and Western Europe - I mean on the Bulk of Humanity and d) realize that I am hardly the first to be talking about this...obviously preceded by Jonathan Swift and Charles Dickens...hardly lightweights or "commies."
Before going "it doesn't work" in a knee-jerk response, examine some of the alternatives that might be presented. How sure are you that what you perceive as "human nature" isn't simply learned human behaviour regarding incentive and "greed?" How do you know and what makes you so sure about it besides just anecdotal opinion? | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/13/2008 1:18:24 AM |  Actually A NEW WoRLD ORDER without MONEY in THE CASHLESS SOCIETY is the goal, ever wonder about The National ID CARD,or The BIO-CHIP, we are already integrated into that system, it's just selling it that they are having problems with... 
You see if you don't have a Chip implant or a CARD, then YOU CAN"T BUY SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING, least of all food or water...  | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/13/2008 1:29:26 AM | Actually, we do already live in just such a society.
We don't use money anymore, we use credit.
Almost no one works for money anymore, we work for credit. Do you think you've got money in the bank ? No, you have credit in the bank. That money you think you have is all purely theoretical and imaginary.
Our credit based economy is what's gotten us into the world wide financial mess we are in right now.
If we had been using money all this time, instead of credit, we wouldn't be on the verge of a depression today. | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/13/2008 2:15:14 AM | I notice I never see anyone on Worker's Comp or "disability" (aka: "I'm allergic to all work!") on Startrek...Some fantasy, huh?
I can see that running rampant in said moneyless society. | |
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| A world without MONEY!
Posted: 10/13/2008 4:14:37 AM | themadfiddler ,
Oh spare me. I ate soup every ****ing day for fifteen years. In the winter there was no heat in my home except for about two hours a day when the old man got his home-made woodstove going. Know what it's like to to feel your fingers go numb while you watch television ? Ever had to wait a week to take a bath because the pipes were frozen ? Like having bugs crawl over you while you sleep ? Enjoy your beating today ? Don't tell me about how life can be tough and how "privileged" I was for being white. That crap might work with people who've never actually known what it's like to live in miserable poverty but for the others, those of us who know plenty well about real poverty, that rhetoric can go straight back up the orifice it was extruded from.
Now , with a response to your anti-white self-loathing and silly assumptions out of the way , yeah, let's discuss the naivety of your position.
Actually, no, forget that. If you haven't been able to pick up by now what should be as obvious to you as it is to everybody else above the age of three then it's clear you'll never be able to wrap your mind around it. That's not an insult either despite how it must certainly seem to be. Nope...I accept that some things , no matter how easy to understand for most, can't always be appreciated by all. You say we'd be better off assuming everybody give's a whit about people on the other side of the world and the rest of us know better. You must be a university professor or , at least, spend a lot of time listening to them. I just can't get over the fact that you've never heard a toddler say "MINE !" | |
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