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 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 101
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Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???Page 5 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
He was not looking for a girlfriend.
He was looking for someone who would take care of his kids, pay his bills and fulfill his physical wants and needs.

He found in you someone who agreed to do all of the above.

A real man will not demean/degrade his woman by having her shackup with him. A real woman would not live an undignified life by being somenone's shackup. As you can see, there is/was no commitment in this shacking up situation.

No, I'm sorry, but the 1950s are over, long gone. Hadn't you heard?

I'm not particularly a FAN of cohabitiation, do not mistake me here. That said, there are a lot of situations where it does make sense in light of practical concerns. To dismiss cohabitation as "shackup" and across- the-board "degrading" and "undignified" for a woman, is a narrowminded kneejerk reaction.

and yet, it never occured to you how damaging it will be for those little kids to see their father bringing in someone and live like that. And then after a little while they leave.

Oh yes, it would definitely be better to quick find a woman to marry, so all was "legal" and "honorable", and if the marriage failed due to being based on expediency and convenience, the kids could live through another divorce. OH yeah, that makes magnificent sense
Mykidsdadiam, I'm sure you are a good man and that you mean to be helpful here, but the cohabitation, or "shackup", issue is a very complex one and sometimes it IS the best option for 2 people who want to be together.
Cindy O
 Bikeman_
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 102
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 11:13:51 AM
BUT, I am a student and have very little income, so I pay what I can. He...now wants to cut the cable...I still want the cable. Should I be expected to pay the cable bill?
Yes. Get a job to pay for the cable, or study more because the TV won't distract you. Being a student is not an reason for you to sponge off of someone else.
 brittany33
Joined: 10/17/2008
Msg: 103
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 12:43:05 PM
listen you said it yourself that your a student and only pay what you can, so the bills arent split 50/50. well he also has two daughters and that is just as, if not more expensive than school, so in my opinion he is just trying to cut the costs of everything since, im assuming, he pays the majority of the bills anyway. so i say if you want to keep the cable, you should have to pay it.. i mean you did move into HIS house.
 MyKidsDadIAm
Joined: 8/10/2005
Msg: 104
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Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 1:37:59 PM
Msg 102: LadyC4 (Cindy O). I appreciate your feedback.


Oh yes, it would definitely be better to quick find a woman to marry, so all was "legal" and "honorable", and if the marriage failed due to being based on expediency and convenience, the kids could live through another divorce. OH yeah, that makes magnificent sense

Cindy O, that is why the process of dating should be treated as getting to know the other person and their values, morals, character, disposition, perseverance, patience, financial responsibility etc. Instead of actually dating, these two in partcular and people in general bypass the process of dating and start playing house right away. What is left for each other to look forward to? Since you mentioned "practical concerns", is that really a good excuse to shed morality, just so we can be practical.


the cohabitation, or "shackup", issue is a very complex one
This issue is amazingly is a very simple one. It becomes complex only if we want it to become complex. When the choices are between being moral/ethical/dignified versus being practical and becoming someone's shackup honey (unpaid whore), taking the easy route does come with consequences. Of course it comes with instant gratification too.

Just my 98 cents
 jsphn11
Joined: 12/24/2007
Msg: 105
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 1:53:13 PM

Get a job to pay for the cable, or study more because the TV won't distract you. Being a student is not an reason for you to sponge off of someone else.

Yes, that's right. She should have gotten a paying job instead of babysitting his kids for free.

If he had to pay a babysitter he would have no money for a new truck.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 106
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 2:33:12 PM

PrettyMoon, that all sounds good on paper, but in reality you can't charge "rent" for common law or married status. The courts would laugh you outta the room if this ended with a breakup and court case.


I don't believe that advice was given for anyone in a marriage (common law or otherwise). MOuse, (the person that was being responded to) was pretty clear that they aren't married.


For example, the house is in your name and always has been, since you're the property owner before you met him/her. They move in, and you still have a balance owing/mortgage payments due. He/she is charged "rent" which is going, even partially towards these mortgage payments. As far as the courts are concerned, now he/she DOES have an investment/interest in THAT property that you once owned all by yourself.


Is this some sort of Canadian thing? I've seen several people mention it now and I know of NO situation in the U.S. where a tennant gains an interest in a property by virtue of paying rent.

If I own a property and a tennant pays me rent, I am free to do whatever I choose to do with the income I get from that property. If I choose to use it to cover my mortgage on that property it creates no legal interest for anyone else. Landlords do this every day without any problems at all.
 sherilyn70
Joined: 1/26/2007
Msg: 107
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 2:50:26 PM

Is this some sort of Canadian thing? I've seen several people mention it now and I know of NO situation in the U.S. where a tennant gains an interest in a property by virtue of paying rent.


No, this is not a US thing. If you are living with someone romantically they can be sued. If you gave money to your SO in trust that it was towards your future do you honestly think a US court wouldn't see some validity in that claim? We live in a sue happy country and if people can win cases about McDonald's coffee being hot and burning them well then surely someone who paid a significant amount of money towards my mortgage in a romantic relationship could be found paying damages. Unless of course you've drawn up a lease to prove otherwise intent.... sounds like a pre nup now doesn't it?
 ngat73
Joined: 6/10/2007
Msg: 108
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 2:51:18 PM
Hell yea you should pay for the cable if you want cable and you guys are trying to make ends meet. However, when I was in school, my boyfriend at the time had paid all the bills. When I was working I paid the electric. When I made more money than him I paid the electric. I guess it depends on the guy.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 109
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 3:17:58 PM

No, this is not a US thing. If you are living with someone romantically they can be sued.


That sentence means nothing. I could sue you and we've never had any intereaction other than this discussion. Anyone can sue any other person for anything. But being able to sue, being able to prove damages and being able to win are all very different things.


If you gave money to your SO in trust that it was towards your future do you honestly think a US court wouldn't see some validity in that claim?


You are adding things to the scenario here. In the few cases where a former S/O has been able to win a lawsuit for a claim of interest in a property there were agreements made that went beyond paying rent. If people choose to do that then that is up to them and they take the risk that goes with it but it doesn't automaticlly create that same situation if the promises aren't made.


We live in a sue happy country and if people can win cases about McDonald's coffee being hot and burning them well then surely someone who paid a significant amount of money towards my mortgage in a romantic relationship could be found paying damages.


??? Why would they be paying damages? If they sued tyou and won then YOU'D be paying the damages. Not them.

But it doesn't matter. This is exactly why I very clearly said "rent" in my previous responses. Paying rent ISN'T paying anything toward my mortage. It is paying for them to live there for the following month. Nothing more.


Unless of course you've drawn up a lease to prove otherwise intent.... sounds like a pre nup now doesn't it?


Nope. This is maybe 1/100th of the items covered in a pre-nup. But I'm not against drawing up a written lease. In fact, I'd recommend it anyway.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 110
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 3:20:15 PM
As a follow-up to BigDaddyJinx -

I just did a quick search and it does appear that common law has a very different meaning in Canda then it does here in the U.S.. So I guess that answers my previous question to you.
 Minau
Joined: 9/2/2007
Msg: 111
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 3:39:32 PM
He pays the extra $50 for the car and you pay for the cable...but considering your status is single...I guess this isn't an issue anymore. Probably inevitable if you're already arguing about finances and things...one of the top causes for divorce...better to have known now then later.
 lustre
Joined: 9/6/2008
Msg: 112
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 3:43:43 PM
Hi OP,as you are in a committed relationship i would say you combine your incomes and then pay the bills from that, if you dont have enough money to pay the bills you prioritize what you need and dont need.Once you start arguing about who earns what and who pays for certain things arguments are inevitable.
You are a couple and need to act like a couple.
I hope everything works out,best wishes
Lustre
 sherilyn70
Joined: 1/26/2007
Msg: 113
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 4:11:19 PM
You are adding things to the scenario here. In the few cases where a former S/O has been able to win a lawsuit for a claim of interest in a property there were agreements made that went beyond paying rent. If people choose to do that then that is up to them and they take the risk that goes with it but it doesn't automaticlly create that same situation if the promises aren't made.


No, I am not adding anything to the scenario. If you are a couple and you live together the courts are going to assume that you did it out of love and wanting to build a future together just as any other person would. Promises don't have to be made in this world... agreements of the opposite must be stated so that assumptions can't stand up in court. If you walk into a bank with a gun out the assumption is made you were going to rob it and you will be arrested. Intent is there when you make the decision to live togehter and if you never said "you are only paying rent and not gaining any equity or interest" then logically it was towards a couples future, which includes financial gains. It seems a bit silly to think you'd want to rent a room from your partner instead of sharing a live together. The concept of living together is to be with your partner for the long run. In case you have not noticed, umarried couples now get mortgages, car loans, and even adopt children together.
 BigDaddyJinx
Joined: 11/4/2006
Msg: 114
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Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 4:16:20 PM
Is this some sort of Canadian thing? I've seen several people mention it now and I know of NO situation in the U.S. where a tennant gains an interest in a property by virtue of paying rent.

If I own a property and a tennant pays me rent, I am free to do whatever I choose to do with the income I get from that property. If I choose to use it to cover my mortgage on that property it creates no legal interest for anyone else. Landlords do this every day without any problems at all.

Jim -- there's a SUBSTANTIAL difference between "tenant" and "partner". If I own a home, and my "tenant" pays me rent, which I naturally apply to my mortgage (if applicable), then no they don't own any interest in the property. This applies all across North America, and I'd imagine everywhere globally.

That said, when you're living with a "partner", all bets are off. You can't call your "partner" a "tenant" just to avoid the possibility of losing half your interest in the home. That wouldn't fly, and any court in the land would chew you up and spit you out sideways if you tried that approach. Lawyers ain't stupid, neither are judges overseeing the separation proceedings.

Unless I'm mistaken, or the laws have been further ratified; in Canada, if your "partner" lives with you for a period of 12 consecutive months and you haven't made it to the alter, it doesn't matter...the courts and the laws consider you as common-law. If one of you has kids that will be accompanying you, then the common-law status takes effect immediately upon them moving in the last of their goods. Again, you can't cry "tenant" in this case just to avoid the potential hazard of losing half the interest in your property. Unless they are ACTUALLY "renters" in the truest sense, meaning you provide them the main floor or basement suite entirely, and no sexual contact takes place yadda yadda...the courts will split your home in half if you break up. And he/she will be more than entitled to it at that point. I haven't done the research in the US on the common-law status, but it may be different.

And of course, once you're legally married, then you automatically know you're gonna lose half the home in a court case.

You have to be smart in this day and age to protect yourself at all costs. Either sign a prenup, or get one party to sign some relenquishment of deed papers (can't remember what the legal terminology is but it states that he/she writes themselves out of the interest in whatever items/property is contained in the agreement prior to co-habitating). In any case, unless you're willing to lose equity in your home upon possible breakup, don't fall back on meaningless buzzwords like "trust" assuming blindly that he/she "ain't like that". When money's concerned, or property, believe me...ANYONE can be "like that".

It pays to protect your investments. Life insurance. Home insurance. Car insurance. Traveller's insurance. Protect your assets too (like property), and don't be dissuaded with words like "trust". Too many people get their asses burned with "trust" as the precipitator.


As a follow-up to BigDaddyJinx -

I just did a quick search and it does appear that common law has a very different meaning in Canda then it does here in the U.S.. So I guess that answers my previous question to you.

No worries Jim. I'll have to do some research of my own here to see what that legal document is called again that sees the signee writing themselves out of anything you owned prior to the hookup.

Cheers.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 115
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 4:41:00 PM

That said, when you're living with a "partner", all bets are off. You can't call your "partner" a "tenant" just to avoid the possibility of losing half your interest in the home. That wouldn't fly, and any court in the land would chew you up and spit you out sideways if you tried that approach. Lawyers ain't stupid, neither are judges overseeing the separation proceedings.


I think this is where the disconnect is between the Canadian system and the U.S. system. A co-habitating S/O gains nothing by default in the U.S.. It takes additional conditions to create any sort of interest before anything could be enforced in a court.

For example, we recently had a case locally where 2 women were living together. One owned the house for 30+ years and had a few children. The other had moved in as a roommate and apparently things got more romanticlly involved as time went on. The owner of the house became estranged from her children and promised the other woman that if she passed away, the other woman could remain in the house as long as she wished and that the house was "theirs".

They ended up having a major disagreement and splitting up and the owner was sued. The complaint was that the woman had told her partner that the house was "theirs" and that she could expect to live there indefinately. The partner won the suit for a small amount of money but the judge made it very clear during the jury instructions that the law doesn't create any property interest just because 2 people share a household and that the jury could only consider the additional promises made that were above and beyond them living in the same house.


In any case, unless you're willing to lose equity in your home upon possible breakup, don't fall back on meaningless buzzwords like "trust" assuming blindly that he/she "ain't like that". When money's concerned, or property, believe me...ANYONE can be "like that".

It pays to protect your investments. Life insurance. Home insurance. Car insurance. Traveller's insurance. Protect your assets too (like property), and don't be dissuaded with words like "trust". Too many people get their asses burned with "trust" as the precipitator.


I couldn't agree more.
 sherilyn70
Joined: 1/26/2007
Msg: 116
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 4:57:17 PM
Jim, you're example is about a same sex couple which still doesn't hold as much value in the US as an opposite sex one. Gay couples do not have many rights in the US, many states did away with the common law rules because they didn't want to have to include same sex domestic partners. Ohio recently did away with it out of fear of gays being able to marry. The argument you presented was that the house was hers to live in indefinitely though and not about collecting equity, however she was actually awarded money. The judges warning didn't say she couldn't collect but only that could consider the promises that were made to her in their compensation decision... which clearly they did side with her. Law may not actually create property interest, but most people will see the intent and award based on that.
 kellygrl51
Joined: 9/21/2008
Msg: 117
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:03:01 PM
If he was paying for cable before he should continue to do so. To buy himself a new truck and turn off cable is just selfish....
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 118
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:14:48 PM

No, I am not adding anything to the scenario.


No? So you didn't say "in trust that it was towards your future"?? That's adding to the sceanrio.


If you are a couple and you live together the courts are going to assume that you did it out of love and wanting to build a future together just as any other person would. Promises don't have to be made in this world... agreements of the opposite must be stated so that assumptions can't stand up in court. If you walk into a bank with a gun out the assumption is made you were going to rob it and you will be arrested. Intent is there when you make the decision to live togehter and if you never said "you are only paying rent and not gaining any equity or interest" It seems a bit silly to think you'd want to rent a room from your partner instead of sharing a live together. The concept of living together is to be with your partner for the long run. In case you have not noticed, umarried couples now get mortgages, car loans, and even adopt children together.
then logically it was towards a couples future, which includes financial gains.

There is a long continuium of reasons why people live together. YOU may be doing so with the intent of living together forever but that's you. I know of no court (in the U.S. anyway) that makes any assumption that applies to anyone. Many people live together as a matter of convience - not with long term plans in mind. Seperate this discussion from your personal situation.

And you are right (IMO) in that "Promises don't have to be made in this world... agreements of the opposite must be stated so that assumptions can't stand up in court." but wrong on "then logically it was towards a couples future, which includes financial gains.". You make a leap in logic here that doesn't hold. It might be YOUR intent to build towards a future together but that isn't a default assumption in law or the courts nor for everyone else out there co-habitating.

That is exactly why stating that the person is paying rent and NOT paying towards equity or some future goal holds up in courts. Telling someone that they are paying rent IS stating the opposite.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 119
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:25:52 PM

The argument you presented was that the house was hers to live in indefinitely though and not about collecting equity, however she was actually awarded money.


The argument is in whether or not an interest in the property exists. Without an interest the plaintiff has no standing to sue to begin with. Only after an interest has been established does the distinction between living there indefinatently or gaining an equity share matter.


The judges warning didn't say she couldn't collect but only that could consider the promises that were made to her in their compensation decision... which clearly they did side with her. Law may not actually create property interest, but most people will see the intent and award based on that.


errr... Apparetly you read something into the post that wasn't there. The award was based on the promises which the law recognises as creating the property interest. The point being that living together in itself didn't create the interest. That later promises did.
 sherilyn70
Joined: 1/26/2007
Msg: 120
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:26:30 PM

That is exactly why stating that the person is paying rent and NOT paying towards equity or some future goal holds up in courts. Telling someone that they are paying rent IS stating the opposite.

However the burden is going to lie on you to prove that you said that in a romanticaly involved relationship. It is not common for people to just rent from their SO. They almost always do not have seperate living quarters and they share a bed. I don't know of anyone that has ever moved in together without the hopes for it to last a long time.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 121
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:35:22 PM
However the burden is going to lie on you to prove that you said that in a romanticaly involved relationship.


Paper and ink were created to solve this very problem. It doesn't take much to write out a monthly receipt and write "Novermber 2008 rent payment" on it when they give you the check or to write "Rent" in the memo field on their check.
 Its Better Together
Joined: 7/27/2008
Msg: 122
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:44:04 PM
Jessica... Jessica... Jessica....

Trouble in paradise already? When both partners are struggling to make ends meet this often leads to anger and resentments. This is not a good sign, especially so soon into a relationship.
Were you both struggling financially before you moved in together? Did you move in together in an attmept to ease the burdens of each other?
It sounds to me like you moved in with him to obtain a cheap roof over your head while you go to school. It sounds to me like he moved you in so that he could have a free babysitter.
I think the cable bill is the least of your problems!
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 123
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Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 7:51:59 PM
Jim, I'd be curious to know if the same person who lives under another's roof without their name on the deed, yet feel entitled to the equity in the residence upon a break up....what they would think if after the break up, instead of siphoning off the equity, they were required to continue to pay the mortgage? I mean, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? If you want to reap the benefit, are you willing to risk it the the other way? Probably not....entitlement is only a one-way street. Where the heck is Judge Judy when you need her?! lol




~ds~
 sherilyn70
Joined: 1/26/2007
Msg: 124
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 8:04:49 PM

Jim, I'd be curious to know if the same person who lives under another's roof without their name on the deed, yet feel entitled to the equity in the residence upon a break up....what they would think if after the break up, instead of siphoning off the equity, they were required to continue to pay the mortgage? I mean, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? If you want to reap the benefit, are you willing to risk it the the other way? Probably not....entitlement is only a one-way street. Where the heck is Judge Judy when you need her?! lol


Isn't that what happens in divorces? Equity is split, often the house is sold or refinanced and the leaving member is paid out. I don't understand why you think this would be so different. If you spend 5 years paying towards a mortgage with your partner then you should get the equivalent equity back out of it because they will benefit from it when they do go to sell in the future.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 125
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 8:27:59 PM

Isn't that what happens in divorces? Equity is split, often the house is sold or refinanced and the leaving member is paid out. I don't understand why you think this would be so different. If you spend 5 years paying towards a mortgage with your partner then you should get the equivalent equity back out of it because they will benefit from it when they do go to sell in the future.


Hmmm... From your response it looks like you've read his question exactly oppposite of what I read.

He said "instead of siphoning off the equity" so I read it as a scenario where:

I own a house.
I get involved in a relationship with you and you move in.
You contribute towards the payments on the mortgage but your name is never put on the title.
5 years later we split and the court orders you to continue making payments toward my mortgage while I remain living in it and in full control of it.

IOW, you DON'T get any equity back. You just get to continue making payments.
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