| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 10/30/2008 10:20:07 AM | Unfortunatelly heat is one of the biggest factors when it comes to deep bore excavations.
Rock is a very poor conductor of heat and so it tends to build up very quickly and disapate very slowly. Friction creates heat, and drilling creates friction, so the deeper you go, the more heat you produce due to friction at the borehead and along the shaft, the torque in the shaft also stores a great deal of heat.
The only two ways of overcoming heat that we have are to use a heat pump or a heat sink. Both of these methods have advantages and disadvantages.
A heat pump is what is ussed in your refrigirator. A coolant is pumped through the heat source, and absorbs heat energy as it passes through. It is then pumped to a difrent location where the heat gradient is reversed and the coolant gives up its stored heat to the suroundings (thats why there is warm air coming of the back of your fridge). This method is limmited by the need for the collant to remain liqud of gas, and therefore not being able to reach thier lowest possible temperature gradient. but it has the advantage that you can use the change of heat storage copacity of difrent states of the same mater (freon gas holds less heat than liquid freon, so pumping liquid freon through the fridge and then turning it to gas to alow it radiate heat alows for an eficient transfer of heat).
Heat sinks are substances that absorb great deals of heat and radiate them back very slowly. These are very comon in electronics, where heat pumps are to cumbersome, energy expensive and slow acting to absorb the heat given of by the electronics. Heat sinks work very well for situations where a large amount of heat neads to be drained from an substance rapidly (like ussing ice on a sprain) but once tyhier thermal capacity has been reached they stop functionaing as heat sinks.
The most efficent way of cooling a given substance is to use both of these at the same time. Use a heat sink to rapidly cool the substance, then run a coolant over the heat sink to transfer the heat away from the substance (This is why CPU's have a fan atached, to cool the heat sink).
Now the problem with deep bore drilling and heat exchange is that it is almost imposable to get an efficient heat sink that can take the presure and friction produced at the drill head. Drill head heat sinks have to be increadibly durable, which usually means steel/titanium blends, which are not very efficient heat sinks.
This means that most of the work needs to be done by the coolant, but due to the nature of the bore hole, only coolants that are not going to damage the enviroment or react with samples/interfear with readings can be ussed. Basically that means water or naturally formaing biochemicals such as alcohol can be ussd because the risk of freon or other coolants getting into the atmosphere is too great.
The problem with these coolants being ussed is that they do not change from liquid to gas and vice versa at easilly workable temperatures, so they transfer very little heat. This means that they have to be ussed in massive quantities to maintain a working temperature at the drill head.
Just imagine how difficult it is piping thounds of gallons of water, seven miles into the ground and then back out again, every few seconds.
We do now have electromagnetic heat shields, but they only deflect heat, in an system like a deep bore drilling rig, that would only cause the heat to build up around the bore head untill the heat shield was overwhelmed. The other problem with electromagnets is that they take up masive amounts of space. If you were to build one into a bore head, you would need a bore that was more than a mile in diamater. this is why they have never been aplied to shuttle crafts for re-entry, because the technology would take up more space than the entire shuttle craft AND the space station! (Or it dose at the moment anyway, who knows what the futre holds).
Untill we devolop a way of bending gravity or creating masive electromagnetic heat shields with small scale tecnology, it will not be posable to go more than a few miles underground because we can not overcome the heat problem. however if we were to build a divice capable of remiving heat efficently enough, then there is no reason that a bore could not drill down to below the crust. But once past the srust we have a second problem, preasure.
The weight of all of the worlds landmasses floats on the surface of a liquid core. If you squeeze an orange and then pierce it with a knife, the insides come shooting out, that is the same problem we weould have with a deep bore penetrating the crust. We would have to ensure that rig was solidly build to resist the presure of the core trying to push it out and crush it down to a tiny blob of metal.
Watching oilwells before they are capped, or active volcanoes as the shoot forth lava gives you a hint at the kind of force that presure applies, and those things are sourced from within the mantle, they only have a fraction of the preasure that the core exerts.
Get past these two obstacles and you are home free, you can go right through to the other side if you want. But with curent technology, it is not possible to overcome either of these bariers. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 3/1/2009 9:13:57 AM | | Supposing a light emitting doide or some form of rotating optical lens connected to the surface by electrical cable or fibre optics could carry enough power to vaporise the rock into a gas/ plasma and then this gas/ plasma is then pumped upwards into the ascending cooling liquid in which the device is carried would it be possible to drill deeper without the huge mass of metalwork above in the borehole? | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 3/1/2009 9:48:36 PM | ^^^There are a couple of problems with that approach. Your electronics would break down at a fairly shallow depth. Your lenses wouldn't survive much longer. You would have salt water filling the hole as your drilled. If you found a way to prevent the salt water from filling the borehole, the vaporized rock would condense around your drill pipe and well bore. The size of the power cord and drill pipe would be immense.
There is no feasible way a hole could be drilled through the mantle with conventional drilling means. Steel is just far too heavy. I can't imagine any material that could be used to form a pipe that would extend over 5000 km and be able to handle temperatures over 5000 C.
I think some kind of thermite might be able to pull it off. Thermite can burn at temperatures in excess of 25,000 C.
For medium-depth holes, an ultrasound device might work to pulverize stone but you would still be stuck with a pipe to circulate your cuttings out of the wellbore. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 3/2/2009 12:19:53 AM | "We can stick people on other planets and bring them back home"
we have never sent a man to another planet. alot of people, including scientist argue that the moon landings were faked since its never been repeated by any other country, including america since. infact, the japanese have sent various machines to the moon and have found no evidence that man has landed there. couldnt find the american flag thats supposedly waving on the moon.
not to mention, once you get a certain distance out in space, there is the van allen radiation belt which would require humans to wear a lead suit, 7ft thick just to be able to survive. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 3/2/2009 8:10:25 AM |
alot of people, including scientist argue that the moon landings were faked since its never been repeated by any other country, including america since
No other country saw reason or had the funds. In case you hadn't heard, the next round of space exploration by the US will involve going back to the moon.
Conspiracy theorists = people who badly need a life. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 3/2/2009 8:32:39 AM |
...alot of people, including scientist argue that the moon landings were faked...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMBCfuKs9i8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wym04J_3Ls0
Those are a couple of the end all convincing arguments for me personally that the moon landings where real. Enjoy | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 3/3/2009 4:19:06 AM | Trevor
In my suggestion the borehole would be kept relatively cool using a slurry of something like kaolin clay pumped down each side of the fibre optic cable. There would be no electronics at depth. The lens would be rotated by the fluid pumped down flowing through a simple turbine. The lens would be made of a silicate which would be more than enough to withstand the heat generated. The gas produced in the burn chamber would be pumped into the slurry by the turbine leaving the burn chamber relatively empty. The fluid pumped down would carry all debris to surface. The steam generated by the slurry contacting the hot walls would drive the slurry to the surface like a geysir.
Would it be possible to use steam to drive a drill? Water would be supplied down a single tube into a boiler/turbine /drillbit with slurry being taken up to surface by steam?. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/3/2009 8:49:54 AM | I have a question about the research on this project
Here is a quote from Wiki
"...Research
The Kola borehole penetrated about a third through the Baltic continental crust, presumed to be around 35 kilometres (22 mi), exposing rocks 2.7 billion years old at the bottom.[citation needed] The project has been a site of extensive geophysical studies. The stated areas of study were the deep structure of the Baltic Shield; seismic discontinuities and the thermal regime in the Earth's crust; the physical and chemical composition of the deep crust and the transition from upper to lower crust; lithospheric geophysics; and to create and develop technologies for deep geophysical study.
To scientists, one of the more fascinating findings to emerge from this well is that the change in seismic velocities was not found at a boundary marking Jeffreys' hypothetical transition from granite to basalt; it was at the bottom of a layer of metamorphic rock that extended from about 5 to 10 kilometers beneath the surface. The rock there had been thoroughly fractured and was saturated with water, which was surprising. This water, unlike surface water, must have come from deep-crust minerals and had been unable to reach the surface because of a layer of impermeable rock.[6]
Another unexpected discovery was the large quantity of hydrogen gas, with the mud flowing out of the hole described as "boiling" with hydrogen..." ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Superdeep_Borehole
How can they be finding water in rocks that are over 100 c? | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/3/2009 9:20:02 AM |
How can they be finding water in rocks that are over 100 c?
The same reason they can find water in asteroids, comets and meteorites that can be -200 C. There's also water in the Earth's mantle. Water molecules in the photosphere of the sun and other stars. Just because an environment is extreme, doesn't mean we're not going to find water there. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/3/2009 11:27:07 AM | >>> couldnt find the american flag thats supposedly waving on the moon.
Odd- we can clearly see them.
http://gizmodo.com/5317057/first-images-of-the-apollo-landing-sites-in-40-years/gallery/ | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/11/2009 8:57:29 PM | Assuming some form of technology could get down as far as the phase where the rock was semi plastic it may be possible to maintain a pipe through the semiplastic by constantly exciting it.
I assume the plastic phase would respond in a similar way to cornstarch molecules.
They act sometimes like a solid and sometimes like a solid.
When they are agitated by eg a spoon they shear showing properties of solids.
When they are not agitated they quickly form a liquid and flow.
So the probable cure for flow at depths is sound waves which would agitate the rock keeping it solid.
(Perhaps rock music might be most efficient eg "Deep" Purple, ) | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/13/2009 3:43:17 AM |
alot of people, including scientist argue that the moon landings were faked since its never been repeated by any other country, including america since
I see dead people..... | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/13/2009 5:54:37 AM |
"We do now have electromagnetic heat shields,"
We do? I can find nothing about this on the web
To clarify.
All energy, is electromagnetism. When you talk about one, you are talking about the other as well. Energy is caried by subatomic particles such as electrons and photons. Atoms, cary heat within the electron shell.
Heat is the transfer of energy from one particle to another. The main source of heat transfer between to substances is through indirect contact. Electromagnetic waves, in the form of subatomic particles can transfer heat from ne substance to another withot the substances touching, just like two pirate ships firing canon balls at each other.
This is the bigest problem with heat storage and dicipation, as there is no way to prevent this form of heat transfer. Even storing a substance in an absolute vacume, the electromagnetic heat would cross the gap and start heating up anything around the vacume. So whilst phisical bariers can protect against direct heat transferance, there is no barier that can protct against electromagnetic heat tansferance.
An electromagnetic heat shield, is a form of heat pump that works usses electromagnetic heat transfer to power its system. It turns electromagnetic energy (the primary method of heat transfer in most situations) into electrical impulses, usssing semiconductor thermocouples (materials that transform heat energy into an electrical charge) that power the heat pump. In addition, the heat pump usses the electromegnetic field as an actuator to move a liquid metal through the heat pump. This system can be entirely self contained and is the most efficient method for absorbing the electomagnetic heat in any given system. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/13/2009 6:23:29 AM |
I assume the plastic phase would respond in a similar way to cornstarch molecules
Sorry, but they do not act in the same way at all. Cornstarch is a fluid with solids in suspension. The earths mantle is a fluid that is under presure. Fluids so not condense, but they do act difrently under presure, become more viscous. The imense presure, makes the friction between the molecules far greater, and so they stick together more. (water with its tiny molecules has little friction, but tar has molecules thousands of times larger and so the molecules stick together because of the increased friction).
This means that any tube through would have to deal with imense presure as well as heat. Unfortunately, agitation would make no difrrence to the fluid. The only solution at present is to use a substance that is storng enough to take the presure, posibly some form of carbon/silcon nanotube weave?
However, if you could get down to the mantle, and overcome the heat problem, excavating the mantle would be relativly easy, you would simply need to push a tube through to your destination point, seal both ends and then suck out the fluid, just like in a straw. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/13/2009 7:49:27 AM | Great thread!
How can they be finding water in rocks that are over 100 c Deep oceanic vents have hot water pouring out of them. The water (yes - WATER) coming out of them is reputed to be about 400C. (http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/OCEAN_PLANET/HTML/ps_vents.html). The reason is that pressure increases the temperature at which water boils. That's the reason why pressure cookers cook quickly. Water pressure increases by ~1 atmosphere for every ~10 meters of depth. That's 100 atmospheres for every kilometer near the surface of the earth.
We do now have electromagnetic heat shields Are you talking about the Peltier effect?
The weight of all of the worlds landmasses floats on the surface of a liquid core. If you squeeze an orange and then pierce it with a knife, the insides come shooting out, that is the same problem we weould have with a deep bore penetrating the crust Drill a hole through a solid that floats (i.e. because it is less dense than water rather than air-filled) and the water won't squirt through the hole. The orange analogy only works if you allow the orange to be 'compressed' by its own gravity (which it is).
Presumably, beyond a certain depth, pressure decreases due to the gravitational effects of mass above. At the center, wouldn't the pressure be zero? - because gravity is effectively zero? Weightlessness refers to the surrounding mass of the earth as well as anything there to experience it.
Why do volcanos erupt? - It can't be because of internal pressure. So is it because of dissolved gases? | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/14/2009 8:18:23 AM | Re: quietjohn2
Question for you in regards to James Maxlow. He believes the vast amount of water today has come from underground out venting.
Quote James Maxlow
"...On an Expansion Tectonic Earth the sea floor crust, ocean water and atmosphere all originate from deep within the Earths mantle and have been added to the surface crust at an accelerating rate throughout geological time. This increase in new ocean water and atmosphere is considered to have resulted by a process of mantle out-gassing, as a natural response to a decrease in mantle temperature and pressure conditions with time..."
What's your opinion of that statement? | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/14/2009 11:19:55 AM |
What's your opinion of that statement? Really not interested in getting into a debate about different tectonic theories - especially as I don't have a clue about geological processes. It's always handy to cite the source of quotations. In this case, I found it at http://www.jamesmaxlow.com/main/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=8&MMN_position=7:4
Even with that, I couldn't figure out what he was saying.
Strange physical and chemical properties reveal themselves at high temperatures and pressures. For eample, 'supercritical' water becomes an organic solvent and research on such things seems rather cursory judging by the lack of info from internet searches.
I'll be happy to sit back and watch progress from the sidelines on this one. If the current hints at expansion are correct, the earth woud have grown by less than a kilometer in diameter since the first measurements of the earth's circumference over 2000 years ago. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 9/15/2009 8:36:58 PM | We all know what that hole the Russians made is for. It is to test that theory that all the Chinese could line up, and one jump off every second and they'd NEVER finish because too many would be born and have kids of their own before their time came up to jump! Russian wants to test that theory!
Of course they could have used a slide rule and figured out that it would actually take a little over 4 years...but hey....empirical evidence always works better,
(Kidding...jeeze....get over it people!)  | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 10/3/2009 7:37:17 PM | Goldminer says
***nope....even if the technology existed to drill to such, the head pressure wouldn't allow the molten material to reach the earth's surface, plus it would likely cool and solidfy on ascent.
Below the aethenosphere the crystalline composition changes because of the heat and pressure forming rocks similar to harzburghite rich in olivines pyroxenes
However the sudden relaese of pressure caused by the sudden arrival of a hypothetical drill bit would allow localised conversion from solid to liquid to gas phase of the CO2 H2O H2S N2 etc which is in the rock in solution under pressure
There would be a sudden change of volume and the rock above would be shattered by the large volume of gas being produced.
This gas would race to the surface ejecting the drillshafts and the casing and the whole drilling derrick would be subjected to enormous catastrophic destruction.
The next phase would see the release of rock debris from the periphery of the hole being sent high into the air followed by magmatic rock turned into a foam (pumice) being ejected
Whether the magma itslf would get to the surface I am unsure about because the walls of the hole would chill the ascending magma causing it to reseal the hole. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 10/3/2009 8:04:00 PM | Re: enriquecalor
awesome text...This gas would race to the surface ejecting the drillshafts and the casing and the whole drilling derrick would be subjected to enormous catastrophic destruction...more awesome text
I must say Enriquecalor, on top of crushing my little hope of seeing a project form that would want to investigate the material that is the core of our planet, I have to admire how you articulate your self with those exciting words which almost sound like we would be making a man kind Volcano... and nature would win that battle very quickly. | |
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| Kola Superdeep Borehole aka (Well to Hell legend)
Posted: 10/3/2009 8:13:51 PM | Re: enriquecalor
Below the aethenosphere the crystalline composition changes because of the heat and pressure forming rocks similar to harzburghite rich in olivines pyroxenes
Do you think it would be possible to build a probe that could handle that heat/pressure, and swim around there collecting data? | |
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