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 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 301
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Steel, you just don't get the team philosophy here


What your saying is a wreckless way of going into the playoffs with the we dont' care about injuries. Ok if Brees gets injuried in one of those meaningless games where he is out for a couple weeks or even the entire post season then what? You going to say oh that's ok we didn't really care about risking it, even though it cost us the entire playoffs doing it over a meaningless game? I mean come on.....


I hear ya Steele, but there has been 43 SB teams, and one of them stands out amongst the rest when the NFL Network counts down the best team ever.


I wouldn't call the 72 dolphines the best team ever, just because they went undefeated for that season. When you look at all the great teams that have won SuperBowls and pin them up against the 72 dolphines, you're talking teams like the Steelers of the 70's , the 49ers of the 80's, the 85 Bears, the Cowboys of the 90's the Patriots of the 2000's, in which you can make a legit argument for as the greatest team ever in any number of their respective super bowl runs.


Steels way: If the team has already wraped up home field advantage but the team has one more regular season game to play, then Why even practice that week for the game. If it's a road game Why even waste time getting on the plane and traveling to another city. Why not just forfeit the game and say we're taking 2 weeks off to get ready for the post season.


Why it's called getting the rest of your team ready by putting in your backups to give them more time on the field incase one of your starters gets injured in the playoffs at some point. That's why you still play those meaningless games because of that reason.

You don't go out and risk what you don't have to.
 Deed50
Joined: 12/2/2007
Msg: 302
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/13/2009 6:04:58 PM
I agree Steel, the Dolphins went undefeated in a different era the game has changed since then in so many ways its pointless to try to compare an undefeated team today to a team back then .
As far as playing your starters once you have home field locked up for the playoffs there is no reason to risk injury. Let your starters take a break and recharge in the meantime the second string gets valuble experience on the field.
Theres no need to prove anything by gaining meaningless points when you have accomplished home field advantage.
From the start of the season your goal is to win the Superbowl regardless of how many games you win in the regular season.
The playoffs is a new season in itself forget what your record was during the regular season means nothing unless you win the whole enchilada.
Bragging rights only come with that Superbowl ring .
How many great players have come out and said they regret never getting the chance to win the ultimate game. Other than their yearly contract thats the only reason most of them play.
You dont sacrafice your body to say you went undefeated ("who bloody well cares") Its the Superbowl ring or rings that brings you fame no different that the Stanley Cup in hockey or the Tripple Crown in horse racing its all about the ultimate prize in sports.
That alone can make you millions more Tiger Woods, Emitt Smith and Wayne Gretzky are perfect examples
 kulbrz
Joined: 11/17/2009
Msg: 303
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/13/2009 7:58:58 PM
Ya'll just give Shawn Payton a call and tell him how to run his team already!!!
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 304
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New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/13/2009 8:17:52 PM
No one is telling anyone how to run a team, but instead stating the high risk that is invloved starting your starters in a game that has no outcome towards your playoff future.
 Deed50
Joined: 12/2/2007
Msg: 305
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/13/2009 8:47:00 PM

Ya'll just give Shawn Payton a call and tell him how to run his team already!!!
.
Im not sure I've ever seen a team not rest their staters for the playoffs . Personally I think it would be pretty stupid to risk injuries but that is what I have seen in the past and I just happen to agree with it.
If Payton decides to play all his starters even with home field locked up that's his decision. But if a key player gets injured I hope he is willing to accept the responsibility because he'll be taking a lot of critisism from the media and possibly other coaches.
Its just plain stupidity to risk or waste an excellent chance to be at your best come playoff time.
 MGMLION
Joined: 4/29/2008
Msg: 306
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 5:37:34 AM

No one is telling anyone how to run a team, but instead stating the high risk that is invloved starting your starters in a game that has no outcome towards your playoff future.


To me the coach should only take out and rest his starting players only if they are injured or have a big lead in the game.
 petebelongs
Joined: 6/23/2006
Msg: 307
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New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 6:54:46 AM

To me the coach should only take out and rest his starting players only if they are injured or have a big lead in the game.


Steel, Deed and MGM and anyone else that has not watched the Saints closely for this and the past few years,
The above statement by MGM has been the traditional NFL coach's philosophy for many years. It is not the philosophy of the Saint's coaches for most of the positions. Now stay with me here, and try and think outside of the tunnel-visioned box that you have been taught in the past about how to utilize the players on a football team. The vast majority of Saints "starters" do not play the full game! They start and may get 2/3 or a slight majority of the playing time. Unlike most teams that play the same team for almost all of the plays in the game, our guys rotate in and out of the line-up on a regular basis, so 41 of the 45 players dressed (take the 2 kickers, the long snapper and the holder/backup QB out of the rotation) on game day get a decent share of playing time. As a result, our players are fresh in the 4th quarter while our opponents are usually sucking wind and dragging tail, and the Saints have been dominent in the last 15 minutes of our games. The "starters" on the Saints get rested during the game, every game. In a blowout, the "starters" may only wind up with 1/3 of the playing time with the backups getting more.
Can you understand this concept? The Saints team is deep, and we use everyone!

skoochie, I don't know bro, we seemed to struggle against the Falcons and they didn't have their starting QB and running back available to play. The Cowboys blew out the Falcons with Ryan and Turner playing. What do you think about the Saturday match-up?
 justnancy
Joined: 7/22/2008
Msg: 308
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 1:09:03 PM
Congrats on your win.

Pete, I agree Saints did struggle against the Flacons, but in the end they played the better game and game up with the points needed to win, Kudos to them.





I wouldn't call the 72 dolphines the best team ever, just because they went undefeated for that season. When you look at all the great teams that have won SuperBowls and pin them up against the 72 dolphines, you're talking teams like the Steelers of the 70's , the 49ers of the 80's, the 85 Bears, the Cowboys of the 90's the Patriots of the 2000's, in which you can make a legit argument for as the greatest team ever in any number of their respective super bowl runs.

I would agree, I don't think the 72 dolphins were the best team. In fact I would say all the other teams you go on to mention were much better teams.

As far as resting your Team I agree Deed and Steel. Most teams would rest their starting team. The goal is to win the Super Bowl not get the perfect season. However getting a perfect season AND a Super Bowl win would be an awesome achievement. I also agree it is a great opportunity to let your back up players get some experience on the field.

However, I do understand what Pete is saying. The Saints really do mix up their "starter" which is why they are so multi-facet and keep the other team guessing, in addition to keeping their players "fresh". Foe the Saints most of their players don't play the full hour of football. With the style of play they use, no one team members Stats will rise to record breaking, but rather the stats are shared among more players because they change the players and their plays so often.

I think the Saints will keep playing their lasts games as they have, only changing out their starters if they winning or if they injured. Saints have clinched the bye week to the playoffs which will allow the whole team to rest. Sometimes too much rest can cause a team to lose their rhythm.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 309
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New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 1:35:14 PM

The above statement by MGM has been the traditional NFL coach's philosophy for many years.


Traditional? Go look at the teams that played a meaningless game on week 17's roster and see who played in those meaningless games. A lot of the times you will find teams that didn't play their star players.
 Deed50
Joined: 12/2/2007
Msg: 310
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 2:07:19 PM
The above statement by MGM has been the traditional NFL coach's philosophy for many years.


Pete I hate to disagree with you on this one .... I remember tom landry and many other coaches sitting their key starters in meaningless games once they achieved home field

Now stay with me here, and try and think outside of the tunnel-visioned box that you have been taught in the past about how to utilize the players on a football team. The vast majority of Saints "starters" do not play the full game! They start and may get 2/3 or a slight majority of the playing time. Unlike most teams that play the same team for almost all of the plays in the game, our guys rotate in and out of the line-up on a regular basis, so 41 of the 45 players dressed (take the 2 kickers, the long snapper and the holder/backup QB out of the rotation) on game day get a decent share of playing time. As a result, our players are fresh in the 4th quarter while our opponents are usually sucking wind and dragging tail, and the Saints have been dominent in the last 15 minutes of our games. The "starters" on the Saints get rested during the game, every game. In a blowout, the "starters" may only wind up with 1/3 of the playing time with the backups getting more.
Can you understand this concept? The Saints team is deep, and we use everyone!
advantage.

Pete there are a lot of teams that substitute players every three or so plays granted most teams may not have the depth of the New Orlean Saints .
Yes I'm sure Steel, MGM and myself understand this concept its been going on for years where have you been as I said before this is nothing new !!!!!!
Most teams have defences now with plenty of sub packages depending on what the offence is showing them, same with the offence.
Now I will admit that I havent watched the Saints this year but they still have key players that do not get substituted Drew Brees and the o line probably play the whole game . They have a wealth of talented recievers , running backs that can be substituted
and with that I agree, however so do many other teams Miami, Dallas, New England, Indianapoilis to name a few . They may not be as talented as the players the Saints have collected over the years but the concept is the same.
One of the reasons the no huddle offence was invented was to keep these substitutions from happening Im sure that too is no secret to MGM, Steel and a lot of other people on this site.
Substituting players is nothing new its been going on for years and we are well aware of it. Most teams leave their O line in tact because of timing and the need to learn to play in unison but these days most teams rotate their players all the time that is if they have enough players they trust to do it.
Trust me when I say this The Saints arent teaching other teams anything they havent seen before the Saints are just excuting what they do very well same as the Colts.
 MGMLION
Joined: 4/29/2008
Msg: 311
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 2:48:00 PM

Traditional? Go look at the teams that played a meaningless game on week 17's roster and see who played in those meaningless games. A lot of the times you will find teams that didn't play their star players.



Those teams were not 16-0 going into week 17 either.
The 2007 Patriots did play and had to play all their starters the whole game in week 17 to come out on top 38-35 in their unbeaten regular season game against the Giants and that was on a short week Saturday night game.
 newdejavu
Joined: 9/11/2009
Msg: 312
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New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 3:13:44 PM
Injuries can happen in practice, too. There is no guarantee by sitting starters they won't get hurt. Heck, players get injured off the field, for that matter (but that's another story).

The Saints (and Colts) can have the best of both worlds here. Play the starters for a half if they get a lead, longer if needed. 16-0 is special. Of course, rest starters who are dinged up, etc.

I think a bigger risk is NOT playing the regulars at all in week 16 and or 17. The Colts did that in 2005 after their 13-0 start. The Steelers sure obliged by going into Indianapolis and getting off to a 14-0 lead on the Colts before their "rust" wore off. The Steelers won that game and went on to win the Superbowl that year as a wildcard team.

Sitting your starters for a full game or two could actually "hurt" your team more than it helps them going into the playoffs.
 justnancy
Joined: 7/22/2008
Msg: 313
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 3:45:45 PM

Sitting your starters for a full game or two could actually "hurt" your team more than it helps them going into the playoffs.


I totally agree, That's why I said


Sometimes too much rest can cause a team to lose their rhythm.


Deed I would agree many teams rotate their players, but not to the degree that NO does.

I say they should go for the perfect record, and rest their key players late in the 3rd quarter or in the 4th quarter, when and if they have the game in their pocket. JMO of course.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 314
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New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 3:49:32 PM
Those teams were not 16-0 going into week 17 either.


Ok and what diff will it make if one of those players get hurt in a meaningless game regardless if they are 15-0 or 15-1 that could end up costing you your entire post season? The argument was when starters shouldn't play. I just don't see how you would want to risk your superbowl hopes by putting your starters on the field, just because you want to play for an undefeated season.


Injuries can happen in practice, too


Practice is an essential part of the game plan going into each game, meaningless games that have no effect on your outcome in the playoffs aren't.
 Deed50
Joined: 12/2/2007
Msg: 315
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 4:06:05 PM
Sitting your starters for a full game or two could actually "hurt" your team more than it helps them going into the playoffs.


I guess the above ^^^^means the teams that win the conference title and get a bye are at a disadvantage because they get the week off or teams that get the bye in the regular season would rather play.
That would mean most teams would avoid winning the AFC or NFC conference title
I DONT THINK SO!!!!!

To Steel City seriously can you believe this is becoming an arguement????? I dont get it !!!! whats not to understand.

to MGM What exactly did the Patriots get for going undefeated in the regular season as opposed to winning the Superbowl. If I had a chance to get a Superbowl ring I could care less about going undefeated.
 MGMLION
Joined: 4/29/2008
Msg: 316
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 5:32:41 PM

to MGM What exactly did the Patriots get for going undefeated in the regular season as opposed to winning the Superbowl.


The patriots wanted both, but fell 1 game short.
And if accomplished something know other team has done.
 Deed50
Joined: 12/2/2007
Msg: 317
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 8:02:21 PM
Very true but had they thought about resting thier starters they may have gotten one more ring but no one will ever really know.
Peyton Manning was on the news tonight and was asked the very same question as to rest the players or not .
He said he wanted to play for the undefeated season but it was up to the coach , he also said there really is no right or wrong answer. But he doesnt have to answer to the owner if they go for it and loose as the Pats did.
I still say its a risky proposition and as a coach I would rest my players just my opinion.
 broncsbuff
Joined: 4/18/2008
Msg: 318
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/14/2009 8:28:16 PM
If he stis the players and they lose in the playoffs he gets blamed for not having enough practice time and being "out of sync"....

If he plays them and someone gets hurt, he gets blamed...

If he plays them, and they lose in the playoffs, then he gets blamed for the team being tired and going too hard late in the season....

I really dont think there is a right or wrong answer. I say go for it for my own selfish reason to shut up the dolphins and all the stupid crap they talk.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 319
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New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/15/2009 1:24:56 PM
I can tell you right now, after playing D1 college ball, those guys can use a rest after 4 months.

If i'm payton, i'm sitting some starters in each game, i rotate them out in different games, so you don't put in an entire second string.

Just me though.
 kulbrz
Joined: 11/17/2009
Msg: 320
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/15/2009 7:35:05 PM
Pete we got 4 starters who on defense arent playing right now, but they should be ready really soon..
 kulbrz
Joined: 11/17/2009
Msg: 321
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/15/2009 7:36:12 PM
How many games did the 72 dolphins play? 13?
 petebelongs
Joined: 6/23/2006
Msg: 322
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New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/16/2009 2:56:40 AM
kulbrz, I believe it was 17. 14 regular season and 3 playoff games.
 MGMLION
Joined: 4/29/2008
Msg: 323
New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/16/2009 5:30:39 AM
kulbrz, I believe it was 17. 14 regular season and 3 playoff games.


The '72 Dolphins won 14 regular season games 1 Divisional playoff game and won the AFC Championship game at Pittsburgh plus winning the Super Bowl game to go a perfect 17-0 season.

Back then the Conference Championship game was part of a rotation system among the 3 conference divisions. It had nothing to do with best regular season wins. In '71 the year before the Dolphins host the AFC Championship game and in '72 It was the AFC Central if for some reason a AFC central team did not play in the championship game then the AFC West team would have hosted the Championship game.
Wonder how many football fans knew that?

The new rule is much better where the best winning team from that Conference always host the Championship game.
 HDready10
Joined: 3/13/2009
Msg: 324
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New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/16/2009 6:49:56 PM
MGMLion
The '72 Dolphins

the '72 dolphins were the first team to have 2 running backs in the same year to achieve 1000 yard status.
i wonder if there will ever be 3?
 JackDiamond312
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 325
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New Orleans Saints
Posted: 12/16/2009 8:58:20 PM
Csonka Kiick.... remember the photo of Kiick flipping the bird on the mag cover?

I'm predicting Saints-Chargers in the Super Bowl... (Sorry Payton Manning)
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