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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/6/2008 1:55:59 PM | Assisted Suicide...this has been a slippery slope for quite some time, many for and may against. I wrote a paper on this once, and wrote it in favor of....
I have seen many people die long and painful deaths, while family stood by and watched with horror and grief. I have seen loved ones look their family in the eye and beg them to finish them off. People have begged me to finish them off.
If someone is mentally capable of making such a decision, then they should be able to make it legally and without intervention from governments, churches, and any other organized group that feels they have a say in how much pain and suffering one human being should sunject themselves.
I give praise to states like Oregon and Washington who have made PSA (physician assisted suicide) a viable option. They have controls in place to standardize it, and they have been working well so far.
Just my 2 cents | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/6/2008 5:21:56 PM | *If the person wants to die it makes little sense to spend vast sums of money, be that personal wealth, future inheritance, or tax payers, to prolong the life of someone who does not want it prolonged.*
Good point, and HOW SO TRUE. WHY, make them suffer, ANY longer, then need be, by DOING SO, is ONLY CRUELTY to them.
However tho, for legal implications, this wish by the patient, SHOULD ALSO, had been put in their WILL.
Because, unfortunately, you cannot just simpley go in, and go, oh, they are suffering, and pull the pin, just like that, especially, when you are also dealing with not only the patients LIFE, but also, the LAW, as well.
Yet, tho, I DO, totally agree, SHOULD the loved one, request, that their life be terminated, by assisted suicide, then THAT request SHOULD be met, just make D A M N sure that it WAS put in their WILL by them, or else, YOU, could be facing legal prosecution. | |
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Xavery
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Joined: 4/22/2007
Msg: 28 | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/6/2008 8:14:59 PM | It is hard for me to respond to the points being made in one simple explanation or take one "side" because I have been present at many deaths. I think each individual situation has aspects that cannot be decided by a computer or a single set of standards to be applied unilaterally. But without discussion, comparison, contrast and thoughtfulness issues can arise that defeat the purpose of compassion.
Our family were medical missionaries in Nicaragua, and I was witness to an entire village that chose to starve to death (while receiving medical care from our group, ironically) rather than to move to a city slum where they had heard they would be required to give up their culture. I thought that was very brave of them at the time, and I was only eleven years old.
The main arguments against assisted suicide are promoted by advocacy groups made up of disabled people. There was a woman who died this week in my state after being in an iron lung for 60 years. Those closest to her thought she had a lot of positive qualities and was not unhappy to be alive. She graduated from high school, wrote a children's book, and had many friends. She would still be alive except that the backup generator wouldn't start after a power failure. The person who started the Independent Living center movement was also in an iron lung, and managed to leave the hospital, find an apartment, date, graduate from college, and work.
The disabled are inspiring precisely because they manage to find the good in life even under the seemingly most restrictive lifestyles. I know a married couple who have a business and own a home, and have two aides to help them. They both have severe Cerbral Palsy and even need assistance with eating. But they were workshop leaders for us who were learning about disability, and I thought they were very intelligent, passionate and caring individuals.
Today my son showed me a Utube clip this afternoon called Extreme Sitting, listed as "Wheelchair backflip." He has friends on his competitive wheelchair sports team that do handstands in their chairs. His coaches drive modified Harley motorcycles, attend college and have some really gorgeous girlfriends.
Sometimes it is the healthy who never expect to ever have any limitations that see the loss of abilities as devastating. We can unwittingly communicate this to our loved ones by our own attidudes. I have had people say they would NEVER be able to do what I have done, and yet somehow, we seem to be more resilient than we know, and rise above many limitations to find meaning and joy in different aspects of life than before--a life is no less valuable because the ending is near.
From reading these postings about the ending point of the progression of ALS I am tempted to say that perhaps a "solution" would be to make certain types of diseases at certain stages, more accessible to assisted suicide than others...
Suicide is tricky. I have been there when I was the healthiest--at age 17. Yet I have been through so much since then and many things which logically might have made someone very much suicidal, and yet I haven't felt more like living even as I turn 50 (and no medications needed.)
I am saddened that someone's request to die has been ignored way past when death would have come "naturally" if that same person had been living 80 years ago. If someone wants to die naturally, then no religious organization has a right to take that decision away from people that are not their own members, by enforcing force- feeding, or giving them antibiotics, IVs or otherwise giving "patients" services they must pay for that they don't want.
I think Doctors created a problem when they tended over the years to see death as the "enemy" and focus only on developing pills and surgeries, and buildings. The problem became really noticable when a woman had to come to a hospital to give birth as if pregnancy was an illness. Death in a sense is not an illness as much as an inevitability. The truly dying are not patients as much as people who are needing compassion and care like our children do when they are too young to yet manage on their own. The service delivery model of dealing with death when it is imminent is based on a healing model that assumes all illness can be healed with just the right combinations of interventions. Yet all Doctors know that they don't do the healing. The patient's body does. The Doctor just assists this to happen. And just like any physical thing, a body can wear out, and the assistance needs to change from assisting healing to assisting the shutting down process by discerning the individual needs of the dying and their families and friends.
I have always been impressed by our funeral directors. They have learned to say just the right things to soothe and often are better able to ground us than our ministers and preists. There needs to be a person to help us graciously usher the process of going from patient to prospective. (I invented the use of this word for this...anticipation of the transition from dying to death has few words to call it.) And a Doctor might not be the person for this--but would consult in the process. A nurse has the same focus on healing, but more experience with the art of dying than even a Doctor. A hospice worker comes close--but unless freed to legally--cannot actively hasten us accross the river Styx.
I know several "dead people." These are people who were at one point in their lives, considered dead by all medical standards. They have a unique perspective that might make them the best ones to serve in this capacity if even in a very limited way...
We are a mind, a body, and a spirit. A psychologist or counsellor can help us deal with the mental aspects of dying like Elizabeth Kubler Ross does. The medical professionals already help in their way with the body, but the focus is usually too strong on death being an enemy, not a welcome and anticipated friend who can provide relief from a protracted dying. Clergy already are summoned to help but their hands are very tied to only providing a spiritual, religious perspective. Philosophers can answer many questions about the ethics of beginnings and endings, and pose new ones. A good death can have all of these.
I think that clarifying terms is a great way to continue a discussion as in the terms suicide, assisted suicide and euthanasia. Newborns with my son's disability were routinely euthanized before 1955. The recommended "treatment" was to not treat their wounds, and not feed them or give them anything to drink until they died. If this was done as shortly as 50 years ago to infants, I don't see the logic of strident objections of groups advocating anything different for adults now---except to force people to pay for services they don't "need" or want. That is force-feeding of a different sort...
It isn't up to me as an individual to decide what aspects of life have value to someone else. I've seen that there is great joy in finding challenge and acheivement even in the most limited circumstances. As life draws to an end, the limitations might not cause as much emotional suffering if there are trailblazers who can show us that sometimes there are unusual ways to savor life's finite moments.
I think that I can only provide things to think about from my perspective of having lived through a lot of this. (I wish I could come back from the other side and bring ideas from there!) The only missing peice is all those who have gone before.
After everyone begins to openly discuss the issues around death and dying in our age, we can possibly alter our laws to reflect the new medical realities of today. My father and my brother-in-law still live on in that they donated still living organs to those who are alive now, but would surely be dead without them. One was very much alive when his organs were harvested, but his brain was not functioning at all. This was hard for the family but ultimately very moving and rewarding for them. If we can keep a dead person alive, but refuse to allow an alive person in a dead body to die, something is very wrong, indeed.
I sometimes think that the last truly human act a person has is to make his or her last choice. The choice to die; when, where, how and with whom is only given to a very, very few of us. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/6/2008 9:41:21 PM | I have already made the conscious decision that if I am found to have a terminal illness, with absolutely no hope, that I would not be either a burden to my children or society. I do not believe in "assisted suicide" but am of the firm belief that the one with the illness should try to take charge.
In such a situation, I would unobtrusively "stockpile" prescriptions, painkillers, etc. and when I felt the time was right, quietly end my life with dignity on my terms, not expecting others to do it for me. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/6/2008 10:46:49 PM | OP, I am so sorry about your mother. I suffer too when others suffer.
I have read almost all the messages in this thread and they all have valid, intelligent points. I feel in my heart it is a difficult place to be, and have at this point no opinion or insight to offer.
There is one thing however, that I have not read yet in any one of the messages.
The possibility of a spiritual perspective... Not church, but true spirituality.
How do we know for sure what the right thing to do is? What does God want us to do? (if you believe in God)...
I listened to a close friend describe the experience she had "on the other side", after a NED (near death experience) produced by an attempted suicide. Her experience was not pretty. There was no beautiful light but darkness, no loving relatives to welcome her...She felt terrible. This was not "hell" but the place where all the suicides went!
She was "told" that as much as the soul always chooses when to return home (Source), it is Source who ultimately decides when. That even awful circumstances in our lives are nothing other than opportunities to grow in faith, to invite Source (God) to the scene to change all things, to manifest God through what we call a "miracle". She was told that life is a precious gift and the worst thing we can do is to throw it away.
Personally, I am not uncomfortable with the idea of "letting go and letting God". Whenever I did everything worked out better, infinitely better. Even in sickness. If you think that reliance on God is a sign of weakness, try letting go of the need to control every thing. It is even harder.
This is not about who is right or wrong , just a different perspective. Food for more thought.
And BTW I am  about the way things are with our health care program. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/6/2008 11:22:27 PM |
Her experience was not pretty.
And this is the jist of it. What's on the other side? Is there another side?
Dont' know, but nobody ever comes back to tell you. She found something, was it the end, was it the portal, was it the doorway to hell.
Do we just become bug food? Reached the point where I don't think "God" would allow that. If there is that holy place, it's not only reserved for the "martyrs", everybody who has ever lived and tried to be a good person, should be heading there. That's a fair and just god.
Still not totally convinced about the hereafter.
Going to hell if I'm wrong. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/7/2008 1:47:34 AM | Some very good pointers in here, and it IS, hard enough, to watch a loved one slowly, and painfully die, from an irreversible, and incurable health condition, yet it IS, harder to let them go, and be in peace, because, of the fact that you will never ever see them again. It IS, a tough choice to make, however, since they are suffering, try and put yourself in their situation, that your health is getting worse, and you cannot be cured, even with all the advances that we have in todays medicine, ya may be able to prolong their life, however, if it is a painful process for them to continue to live day by day, knowing that they cannot get better, then is it not better to LOVE them, and let them go, and be in peace, allowing God, to look after them for us, in eternal life.
BOTH, of my parents are gone, and as much as I would LOVE to have them BOTH back, but at WHAT PRICE, that they suffer in pain, and in deteriorating health conditions, that are unbearable to them, so that I could have them here still.
NO WAY, NOOOOOO WAAAAAYYYY, would I ever want that for them, NO WAY, because, that is total, and complete lack of respect for them, TOTAL and COMPLETE lack of "R E S P E C T" for them. As painful as it is, to you, it is even MORE PAINFUL, to them, to continue, to try and keep them living. It is better to move on in life, and allow them, to "REST IN PEACE". And as much as I LOVE them BOTH, and MISS them BOTH dearly, I would rather have them where they are NOW, resting in peace, without all the pain and anguish. And one day, it will be our opportunity, to re-join them, however, they would want ALL of us, to live out OUR lives, until that day comes, when WE can join them.
Hows that go, ashes to ashes, and dust to dust????
It seems like the hardest thing to do, to let them go, but in the long term, it is the right thing to do, by letting them go, and rest in peace, however tho, hold onto the good memories that you had with them, will help to relieve the pain that you feel of losing.
And yes, may God Bless them, and hold them, gently, in his loving arms, of eternal life.
I know that they are much better off, where they are now | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/7/2008 3:03:57 AM | I believe in assisted suicide/ euthenasia. I have watched a loved one die from M.S..
Whether or not the medical professionals are taking drugs is not the issue at hand. I am sorry for your loss of your child.
Europe has had some form of assisted suicide for decades. There it is not an issue.
The problem here in NorthAmerica is the clouding of religious overtones in government and pharmaceutical company profits.
A Living Will really does not have the legal grip people current believe it does. You're incapacitated and your family's beliefs are different; the living will takes a back seat.
It is unfortunate that animals, for the most part, are given greater respect and dignity than are humans.
And on a more cynical note...A testament to prove a person's life truly is not their own.
Shiraz21
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XHTML
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Joined: 6/5/2008
Msg: 36 | |
| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/7/2008 4:42:06 AM |
The possibility of a spiritual perspective... Not church, but true spirituality.
How do we know for sure what the right thing to do is? What does God want us to do? (if you believe in God)...
There are those who do not believe in an after life. I do not. I don't think it particularly relevant. Even among those that believe in an after life, for some their condition has become so horrible, thanks to a progressive disease, their life is already hell. They are prepared to face the consequences of their death, even it is is a little earlier than the inevitable.
Moreover it is their life and so should be their choice to make.
**************
...and it IS, hard enough, to watch a loved one slowly, and painfully die, from an irreversible, and incurable health condition, yet it IS, harder to let them go, and be in peace, because, of the fact that you will never ever see them again.
This touches on what I suspect contributes to the mindset of those family members and friends who argue against assisted suicide of their loved one.
They are selfish. They want the ailing person to stay alive at all costs, physical and monetary, for their own benefit, for they cannot bear to let them go. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/7/2008 6:30:07 AM | | I definately believe in assisted suicide and if it is not in place and I need that avenue of escape from the pain some time in the future (hopefully a long time from now) then I will hopefully be able to take care of my own demise without any assistance from anyone. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/7/2008 10:27:11 AM | *...and it IS, hard enough, to watch a loved one slowly, and painfully die, from an irreversible, and incurable health condition, yet it IS, harder to let them go, and be in peace, because, of the fact that you will never ever see them again.
This touches on what I suspect contributes to the mindset of those family members and friends who argue against assisted suicide of their loved one.
They are selfish. They want the ailing person to stay alive at all costs, physical and monetary, for their own benefit, for they cannot bear to let them go.*
Therefore, it is better to let them go, and be in peace, then trying to keep them alive.
No one, deserves to suffer in pain, and anguish.
Also, to add to this, it is much better that your body be cremated, instead of buried in a wooden casket.
Cremation, reduces your body from flesh and bones, to just bones, or your remains, and put into a sealed container.
Where as with a burial, your body is just put in a wooden casket, that is buried in the ground, and in time, as the wood deteriorates, bug van get in, besides, your body ends up, just being bones anyhow, and cremation is probably, a more dignified manner of discarding of the body remains. | |
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Xavery
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Joined: 4/22/2007
Msg: 39 | |
| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/7/2008 6:50:27 PM |
They want the ailing person to stay alive at all costs, physical and monetary, for their own benefit, for they cannot bear to let them go.
I have seen this with many dog owners. Personally, I prefer dead animals to one that live in a chronic state of suffering.
I have already made the conscious decision that if I am found to have a terminal illness, with absolutely no hope, that I would not be either a burden to my children or society. I do not believe in "assisted suicide" but am of the firm belief that the one with the illness should try to take charge.
I do not believe in assisted suicided says the person who is abled bodied and wants to be in contron and in charge right up to the end, but remember our circumstances can change in an instant - in the blink of eye. Aneurysm, car crash, stroke. None of us know what is coming our way. We can only hope. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/7/2008 8:13:31 PM | Ideoform
The problem became really noticable when a woman had to come to a hospital to give birth as if pregnancy was an illness.
HAD to? it isn't a law... it is a choice that informed women make to UP the odds of a successful delivery. Many, many more women and children died during childbirth at home over the years than in medical facilities over circumstances that can be treated if done in a timely manner. I happen to be one of those women who are thankful that I could go to a hospital and not risk my childs life by staying at home risking unforseen complications.
Back on topic...I am a firm believer in living wills.
My parents have them , my Step Father and my Mother , have decided that I have the control as they KNOW that I will make the informed medical decisions as they would want, NOT the emotional ones that my siblings may falter with. HUGE responsibility, but they know that we are both on the same page and I will do what they want, not the family who will hang on forever when there is no hope of recovery.
I should amend this... my step father has passed on and I followed his wishes... no heroics etc. I have no regrets and only hope someone will do the same for me if necessary. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/7/2008 11:28:24 PM | I'm sure it won't be long before the Gov't gives the green Light, since many States are following Suit, as their Gov'ts are also tired of getting robbed keeping the Living Dead alive.
Next, a "Do-it-yourself" Suicide Kit widely Available from your local Funeral Parlor "Check-Out" Vending Outlet. The Vacation Package Deal to Hell would incl. psychedelic Cyanide & a Vase. One simply throws a few Coins into the Machine, lies down on the folding-out Bed-Drawer, pops the Pill, and when the Body Temperature drops below 20 Degrees, the Incinerator Tray automatically draws the Corpse in and nukes you into the Vase. A brief computerized Eulogy (Microsoft Undertaker 2009 Corporate Edition) is played before you are flushed down the Sewer. 
Make sure you leave a sizeable Tax & Credit Card Debt  and keep and few Nickels in your Pocket before you notify the aforementioned unsecured Creditors of your scheduled Departure, so you'll have at least a few weeping Attendees blessing your Journey into the Afterlife.  | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/11/2008 10:30:21 PM | | Tickettoride: Just making an assumption here, and you know what that means......but, sounds like you're not real big on the assisted suicide thing. Else, the jocularity is appreciated. I've got a pirated copy of Undertaker 2002. Is there any way to upgrade it? | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/12/2008 12:16:06 PM | Interesting article in the Province today (Sept 12 Page A27) about a teenager in London England that has won the right to die at home after refusing to have a heart transplant the hospital she was at tried to force on her. She has had a rare for of lukemia since she was five and is tired of being in the hospital.
Might be a good sign... | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/12/2008 12:29:53 PM | sounds like you're not real big on the assisted suicide thing.
Read earlier Posts I made on this Thread.
I've got a pirated copy of Undertaker 2002. Is there any way to upgrade it?
You can download the "Welcome Back" Resuscitation Plug-in/Add-on in the Event of a
"Fatal Error: Cannot Terminate User" Screen Message to abort the Eulogy ... lol
Interesting article in the Province today (Sept 12 Page A27) about a teenager in London England that has won the right to die at home after refusing to have a heart transplant the hospital she was at tried to force on her. She has had a rare for of lukemia since she was five and is tired of being in the hospital.
Cool !!! Looks like it required divine Legal Intervention to give the Medicos a Wake-up Call and stop robbing the Taxpayer for Services that are not wanted. You have to go to Court now to stop them from milking the Public Purse. Ridiculous, no Concept of the Quality of Life. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/13/2008 4:27:49 AM | " sad fact is that a lot of the pain medications intended for the patients are used by the staff. I know this for a fact. There is a great deal of drug addiction among medical professionals. Anesthesiologists dilute the medications up to half sometimes, leaving some patients nearly awake. There are huge numbers of Doctors, Nurses, Veterinarians and Pharmacists who are diluting pain medications every day. "
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My god Ideoform....... I'm in this profession, I have NEVER witness such ACTS....
Yes, there are addicts in every profession. BUT, to suggest that PAIN medication is being diluted so health care professionals can get high is a very outragious and irresponsible statement.
We are not angels - but, cruel to the point of allowing our patients to suffer.
STAY on topic | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/13/2008 8:59:45 AM | funny I see this forum today...
my father's beloved wife is on the verge of passing ...
We were asked if we wanted to intervene..
and feel that with her declining health... she has dementia n her health has declined rapidly over the passed number of day's...... her kidney's have now shut down..
it's time to let her go... and spend as much time with her now that her time is near...
I work in health care... so i see this type of occurrence regularly.
it's sad to see ones loved ones suffer... | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/13/2008 9:03:54 AM | Its terrible what your mother went through and I am sorry to hear it. I am for letting someone choose if they want to end the suffering.
Dying slowly and painfully is my greatest fear. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/13/2008 12:50:35 PM | | I'm with you on this. Never/ever keep me alive just for something to do. Written into my will, is no extraordinary measures. Let me go. Hopefully we're looking a long time down the road. | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/13/2008 9:54:01 PM | I believe in the right to be able to freely choose my fate before an illness/disease/condition renders me incapable of taking care of myself. I do not and would not want to suffer needlessly from an incurable condition and definitely wouldn't want my family to suffer emotionally and/or mentally because of it either.
I am not familiar with a lot of the legalities and controversy over this issue but I would just like to say that if a person were found to be mentally competent then he/she should have the right to choose for him/herself.
Hmmm....gets me thinking... this may sound terribly simplistic, but I am just sharing a thought here...
In a society where we have so many other existing programs why not create and implement a program that offers information, counseling, and other resources so the 'people in power' can be sure the person who wishes to end their own life has made an educated and informed decision. After going through the program a person must get a mental/emotional check up (just like a regular medical one) with a mental health proffessional. If he/she is found to be clear of depression, obsessions, addictions, etc. they are given the OK and their life is in their own hands.
I realize there are many different and difficult situations that the above does not or will not apply - such as making the decision FOR a loved one who is incapable of making it for him/herself. As in someone who is in a vegetative state due to car accident and is being kept alive by medicine and machines. It would be hard to say what decision I would make if that were my daughter or son but I do know that is not 'life' as I define it.
D:) | |
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| Assisted suicide - the right to die with dignity
Posted: 11/13/2008 10:25:39 PM | | sad thing is if you have a strong heart you get to keep living/existing,... however if it isn't so strong you have the option of signing a DNR (do not resuscitate). | |
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