| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/12/2008 10:30:14 AM | I think there should be more accountability held towards the Parents of these kids. How on earth could have a child when they cannot take care of themselves!
Of course that's half the problem,isn't it? People who behave like this DO NOT THINK about thier child(ren's ) basic needs & requirements, nor do they want to take responsibility for thier actions! They have forgotten that children need love, care & attention 24-7, AS WELL AS, having thier basic needs (Food, clothing, shelter, medical care, etc) consistently met.
If a person is struggling to make ends meet/cannot take care of themselves or is currently involved in risky & dangerous behaviour and/or unstable situations, WHY OH WHY bring an innocent victim into the mess? | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/12/2008 10:40:17 AM |
If a person is struggling to make ends meet/cannot take care of themselves or is currently involved in risky & dangerous behaviour and/or unstable situations, WHY OH WHY bring an innocent victim into the mess?
Unfortunately it's their right to pro-create. I knew a girl who was in dealings with CFS for her two older children (neglect and other things) While her 2 children were in custody, she got pregnant and had another child and has had 2 more since, bringing her up to 5. CFS tried to make her accountable for providing the basics (the ones you mentioned) but that's it. They couldn't make her stop having children and they couldn't make her take any form of birth control or have her tubes tied. Something to do with human rights...
Everyone is accountable. The parents for taking care of what they bring into this world and the agency that stepped in to ensure the proper care for those kids. A lot of valid points have been brought up for both sides of the arguement.
I had an interesting read in the Free Press this morning regarding this case. Take a gander if you're interested in reading what the mother said in her interview with the RCMP... | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/12/2008 11:03:26 AM | "Everyone is accountable. The parents for taking care of what they bring into this world and the agency that stepped in to ensure the proper care for those kids".
You are right Smiling One! In an ideal world, we would never hear of cases like this happening.
I don't know much about the CFS system, other than what I read & watch in the news and I know I have a lot to learn. However, what about the rights of those children, like Phoenix? They certainly have the right to a safe, loving & nuturing environment with basic needs consistently being met.
"While her 2 children were in custody, she got pregnant and had another child and has had 2 more since, bringing her up to 5."
Society advises us to sterilize our pets so why can't we sterilize those who refuse to take care of thier children? Perhaps an unpopular thought but it's JUST a thought.
In any case, it's just so frustrating & saddening to hear about sweet innocent children being victimized far too often. | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/12/2008 11:25:07 AM |
Society advises us to sterilize our pets so why can't we sterilize those who refuse to take care of thier children? Perhaps an unpopular thought but it's JUST a thought.
You have no idea how many times I've wished for something like this. Another example...if we need licenses to drive vehicles, permits to build decks, etc...why not the same for kids? But then again, who decides what criteria you must meet in order to get a license/permit to procreate? Unfortunately a lot of people out there can't make an informed decision about having a child. How much further does society need to go in order to make that decision easier for them to make?
Then that leads to questions about gendercide and other tangents of conversation when it comes to procreation and who should/should not. A very tangled web indeed and would bring the thread WAY off topic. lol | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/12/2008 1:41:24 PM | "..if we need licenses to drive vehicles, permits to build decks, etc...why not the same for kids?"
I've wished this many, many times as well. | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/12/2008 1:57:59 PM | I've often thought that the two major problems with our society is that a license is not required to either procreate, or vote.
Since participating in the forums, I've amended that to include a license for internet access. | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/12/2008 4:18:09 PM | I am not comfortable blaming an agency that was maybe not provided all the facts-relatives are now testifying abuse they witnessed-maybe if any of them would have spoken for her before she died to CFS, the child would not have been placed back with the parents. If anyone had told CFS what I heard on tonights news in the way of what one witness alone witnessed...I cannot believe CFS would have known this and let her stay there. Alot of families will not turn in one of thier own. This child was missing for how long before anoyone even noticed? Her entire family let her down.
I also think as a society, we need to seriously look at changing this whole 'the bio parent is always the preferred solution'. BS. Some people should never reproduce. I think parents of this nature, should be sterilized. We do that to animals. This applies. | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/12/2008 8:33:25 PM |
government body, needs to be held accountable.
It'd be nice, but it's never gonna happen, ( like people having to take some personal responsibility for their actions/choices). | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/12/2008 8:38:24 PM |
I've often thought that the two major problems with our society is that a license is not required to either procreate, or vote.
Dunno about a license to vote, but how about a short basic intelligence test to be taken before being allowed to cast your ballot? If you fail the test you don't get to vote. An author in the US ( I think it was Heinlein) suggested a further step: you go to the polling station, pay a $50 fee, then write the test. If you pass the test your money is refunded & you go cast your ballot. If you fail the test you don't get to vote & the fee is kept by the government to be paid against the deficit ( prrovincial, federal or city, depending on the election). | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/13/2008 6:42:23 AM |
If you pass the test your money is refunded & you go cast your ballot. If you fail the test you don't get to vote & the fee is kept by the government to be paid against the deficit ( prrovincial, federal or city, depending on the election).
A good place for that money would be into the education system? lol | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/13/2008 9:28:01 AM | As the details are released we find the outrage in us and the anger can not be silenced ..the outrage of this event needs to stay in the hearts and minds of the people who pretend the best place for a child is a family member...to have this effect time and time again and still pretend that the best place for unappreciated human.
To have the politicians answer to the context of placing a child in a dysfunctional community who allows a baby to be caged and assumed with the hate of the adults who live there...
I hope the judge who placed that child back in that situation can sleep good at night...i hope the band councellor and all of his cornies can appreciate the amount of moral responsibility they owe this child and lastly i sure as heck hope the notion of placing a child with a freek who does not reguard the privilige of being a parent is re addressed first and foremost to the rights of the child to superseed the race violations and assuming poverty does this. Poverty did not do this....a human made a choice to assume a child like a possesion instead of a living human who deserves respect of passage. And if band councellors whisper poverty is the excuse of the day i swear i will indeed challenge that...cuz poor people feed there kids first and eat less themself...they to not assume the child and use it as an excuse to be a rotten parent!
this waste of groceries and her mate deserve a box in the basement of the jail...and only bread and lil water like they gave her...they deserve to be the token change of how this country allows animals to slide on there own conduct...release the **** in general population..or better yet let her out and allow the general public the oppertunity to give this human the effect of the action of her consequence.(by real parents who know what she did was unforgivable on this planet!)
oh please let me have her for 10 min with a stick...and her entire family needs to feel the effect of the media on there azzes and let them never forget/////////
pheonix is with gage dancing on the moon..oh sweet baby dance forever cuz we will not forget your spirit and we will indeed not let those animals forget what they did to you.......................IN THE NAME OF CULTURE no less. | |
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Posted: 11/13/2008 10:37:22 AM | OPk I am going to stick my neck out here and comment on something I KNOW SOME ARE THINKING......but I preface it with my intent is get open discussion and POSITIVE FEEDBACK!!....not pointing fingers.
However......
This case reminds of another one just this last year as well that is going before the courts.....of two children left out in snow to freeze to death.
There is alot of finger pointing going on at CFS...and no-doubt warrented....BUT...there is also something else that exists here.....
A community must always try to do what they can to prevent, stop, report on and do whatever they can to reveal and stop ABUSE.
Both of these cases have taken place in aboriginal communities...that is a fact !
I know this not condoned by aboriginals in general....and I know the vast majority of aboriginals are caring and loving of their families.
But I want people to say how these things make them feel about their communities...and about other peoples' communities...
Is there more any of us can do to prevent thiese things from happening?? | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/13/2008 11:08:42 AM | Pheonix's half brother was on the stand yesterday testifying about what happened and against his dad. I think that took a lot of courage for a teenager and a member of the family.
He stood up and said what was going on. He should be recognized as a good boy and a good member of the community. We can't really blame entire communities for these kinds of problems. Some of these people are doing the right thing. | |
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Posted: 11/13/2008 12:17:49 PM | | yes I can not imagine what courage it took for this young man to stand up and speak the truth but against the only father he has known as well as to not to mention the despair he must have felt against living with that knowledge for this period of time. Brave child but very sad situation. | |
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Posted: 11/13/2008 12:36:41 PM | Wow, if I thought the publicized interview of the mother was something else, the testimony of the oldest step brother took it to an all new level. I actually just cried reading some of the details.
So, here is a child (12 at the time) watching all of this go down, along with another younger brother. The childs body isnt discovered for 10 months because the children witnessing these horrible things are too scared to come forward.
There was talk (if I'm not mistaken) earlier in the thread for making the entire family accountable for what they heard and saw. How do you make a 12 yr old accountable for that?
Yes, yes...by 12 you should know wrong from right. But with role models like the two in this case...it's any wonder the boys came forward at all. | |
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Posted: 11/13/2008 12:51:36 PM | I cannot even think of holding other children, who also probably suffered abuse...accountable. Where were all the aunties and uncles who are in the court room today, crying over this death? Where was the neighbours who surely must have noticed this child was missing? Where were the grandparents?
Some of the testomony shows some of this abuse took place outside. Someone had to have seen something, other than the other children. | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/13/2008 1:02:23 PM | The reality is that in order for children to "tell", they need to have a safe place to go to make a disclosure. And they need to know their safety will be preserved in the process. Either by going to a parent, another family member, the school, the church, an elder or someone in the community.
Clearly the other children in the family didn't have a safe place to disclose the horrors in that household. As well they themselves may have been abused and what they witnessed wasn't much more than they themselves endured when they were younger. Being an abused child myself, you do minimize and you also think it's "normal" until either someone steps in to rescue you or, in my case you get the hell out when you have a chance grow up and realize that it's not normal and you will be dead one day if you don't get the hell out.
Children need to be provided a safe place if they are to feel safe and to remain protected.
PP | |
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Posted: 11/13/2008 1:14:10 PM | The adults are in the accountability seat here and I would think the rewards of education can be grasped from the step childs brave absolutly mind blowing challenge of surviving himself and getting his brother to safety first.
That young man and his mom are the respective proof that education and caring begin with the safety tools to express fear to the human they are spose to be able to trust...gold star to that young man and may he spend his energy in the rewards that come to human's who break stigma and hold the keys to the future of young kids power in a caustic communities effects.
Let this boy know the planet is so very proud that he is a smart boy and choose to feed the white wolf....son you are a leader and i hope the community unites to protect your values as a human who protects their young at all costs...
son you gave the most to pheonix and justice no doubt will ensure your safe for the rest of your life....and if this community reaches for the white wolf's energy they will breed growth into the heart...just feed the right wolf here and you got your stepping stones to the new future which you are the human who writes the words instead of allowing old words to lead you...follow your hearts and universe will come to you too.
This boy is the stepping stone to the effect of education and justice is his every single time.kudos to the diamond of a child who greets adulthood in such a colorful mind breaking birth indeed. | |
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Posted: 11/13/2008 10:47:47 PM | | i tried to read the free press story today and couldn't finish..................as others have said i too feel the same way.............never should one so young suffer as she did.............i'll gladly pull the trigger, on a non firing rifle, so as to finish the job with the butt end ................. | |
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Posted: 11/14/2008 8:11:46 AM | I think the thing that amazes me the most about this story is the way the mother has enuff insite to still point the finger at her partner....obviously this mother did not grasp the full context of adult choices to choose toparticipate and then expect to lie her way out of the effects of dead lil girl...her own child and he is spose to have more responsibility to kid than herself. it is amazing how that warped mind can not grasp her own responsibility and still even after that lil child is dead she is still with it enuff to bail herself out.(she choose to kill her daughter before she choose to make her child safe)
to think there is indications that this human is smart enuff to try and pretend her responsibility to that child can be transfered to another human when she is the biological parent. to think for five seconds that she is not the human who thru her childs rights out first and he merely followed her lead...cuz she is the biological parent who owed this baby life. I hope they fry the bit*ch and tell her family to pretend it is someone elses choice to enable this chitpile from drawing more innocent unborn kids to her. what a pile of falking azzholes., they make me sick to my tummy and want to tell them...your falking free ride is up. you tortured and murdered your own child and your a embarrasment as a human being. shakes old head.
throw away the key here. the victimized boys deserve to know they will never walk free again...i love england in the sentence.....a undetermined amount of time !!!
but than again if her family spent a life time sitting on there azzes not leading and teaching there children write from wrong than it is indeed a choice of their lifestyle to not bother impacting the future citizens isn't it...so let this entire community face the effects of there choices to not send there kids to school every single day and ingore there responsibility as a adult lead. chief this is all about you and your lack of lead to enforse education in your district...ya proud of your casino idea now ya freek! | |
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Posted: 11/14/2008 11:02:45 AM | "I actually just cried reading some of the details."
Me too! It's so heartbreaking but I feel it's neccessary to finding out the truth.
Hopefully this case will wake people up & FORCE changes-either to the way CFS handles thier cases to the laws to whatever else.
I'm never going to allow myself to protect anyone who's abusive & neglectful -ever! I'm not afraid to take action & I would not hesitate to go against family or anyone for that matter. | |
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Posted: 11/14/2008 5:55:57 PM | Well i am of the opinion if there is one dead child how many are hanging on with a thread waiting for us to give them the ladditude to survive...it pizzes me off that we can falk around for years on this situation when the lives of many might be haggin in the balance while our lovely court system sits on the last train on the track....i think it is a smoke signalwhich leads to a warning to not wait for restults but send out the prongs to draw in the children who may be layin on a floor RIGHT NOW!
Queen i am sorry hun but that is the reality of this story....there is a child laying waiting right now...we must not fail to grasp there hand when they are at such great risk...
where there is a subculture who could watch this transpire there are kids waiting for us to come....it is equal reflection of percentages and reality....that hurts my heart and i don't think anyone can deny that sad reality...i hope this opens the eye's in some complacent heads indeed my queen....it is a hard reality to grasp when most of us would jump in front of a bus to stop our children from harm to.
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Posted: 11/17/2008 12:26:18 PM | I can understand anyone who does not agree with the fact that this was wrong. I am only understanding the fact that if you don't think that is was wrong you should be in jail also, no child should have to go through what she had to go through. In fact no body should have to go through something like that.
I have a 2 year old son, and yes something he gets on my nerves to the point where I don't know what to do but you learn to just deal with it like most parents do. I have taught him what times out are and having to sit in his room for a while if he is bad. But for christ sakes I have not once ever tortured my son. I personally think that a lot of people should have mandatory psychiatric testing, Giving the stats this province has on teen pregnancy and high child abuse with domestic abuse should implement some sort of child protection making sure parents are fit to raise there child. I know if something like this were to come into affect it would cause some very well organized chaos but considering the deaths of children and giving the situation that caused those deaths some parents just need to get there heads rearranged before they are allot to actually have parental rights. Also giving the fact that the highest ranking car thefts are children under the age of 16... I think its odd that if a manager of a company is not doing his job right he gets demoted or fired, it happens in business on a daily basis, new governments get elected based on how horrible of a job the past government has done. So why not do the same to high risk parents, its not that hard to tell which ones are at high risk, but considering the statistics once again. I am sure things would work out with this. Parental Counseling. Lets build a better society for ****s sakes.
Its a two cents post, and considering I was nice about it. Just be respectful please. | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/17/2008 12:52:08 PM | I've had the opportunity to work with some gov't agencies and for the most part have found the employees to be genuine and caring people. They feel compelled to do this work and truly want to help. The problem is complex and exists on many levels. One is that there are not enough workers for the huge caseload. Another is that not all the cases that need professional intervention get reported. Even when the cases are being delt with, not all the information is being presented or is misrepresented. And just like the old saying about the squeeky wheel, the worse 10% of their cases take up 90% of their time.
The judicial system is hindered because the aboriginal communities are petitioning for self government and the courts can only rule on the facts presented.
I believe that there are people in this world who should never have children. I also believe that there are times when children can be better cared for by people of other races or cultures. The courts could consider making placements that put native children in non-native homes and order cultural education and supervised visitations with family.
Relationships are complex, as is human socialization. The problems this mother has started a long time ago. Bottom line, she had an opportunity to form a notion about right and wrong before this took place. We all have to make decisions everyday that affect our future, that define us as honest or dishonest, honorable or dishonorable, selfless or self-centered. For whatever reason, this mother chose to NOT put her child first that day. That was covered on the first day in Parenthood 101: When you chose to bring children into this world, you have to accept that your life will never be the same. As parents we need to not only play a defensive role but an offensive one too. For whatever reason, this mother did not do this.
The young son showed courage. We need to do more than just applaud him, we need to recognise how this experience has traumatized him and get him the help he needs.
The other aspect of this case is the community. Surely someone notices this girl was missing. Surely family and friends asked where she was. Some degree of accountability belongs here too.
We can't change what happened but we can take what we feel and channel it so that we influence the outcome for another child. That can take the form of activism, volunteerism, charity, education, or personal growth. We can should not and cannot make her death be in vane. | |
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| The Tragedy of Phoenix Sinclair .......
Posted: 11/17/2008 4:36:38 PM | I am really sorry this child died, but I dont blame the government - its not up to the government to raise children that people spit out with not one ounce of caring for that life.
I blame the parents - totally. I believe they each deserve to be steralized and spend the rest of their lives in jail. I would prefer the death penality for these 2 monsters, but we live in a bleeding heart society that fails to punish the guilty. My second choice would be that they be steralized - that would certainly eliminate them killing another one of their children in the future and that would satisfy me.
I remember when I was growing up it was my parents not CFS or any govt agency that made be go to school, be respectful, responsible and law abiding. Bad kids were taken from the home and bad parents had children taken away - end of story. What is this merry go round about kids being placed in and out of dangerous homes - not very good. This event if anything is proof - time for a system overhaul and some strong measurement of people being responsible. | |
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