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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 12:20:13 AM | >>>Still, many times we are correct in these assumptions.
What??
What history books have you been reading? When did man ever get it right the first time? He was convinced his leaders were Gods, that there were halfman, half bull creatures roaming the countryside- sea monsters were a legitmate threat when sailing- the world was flat- I can keep going and going- mermaids, werewolves, vampires, virgin sacrafices, blood letting, Segways- humanity has an enourmous track record at getting things dead wrong.
How did we gain progress as a species? We didn't rely on our intitution- we observed. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 6:54:05 AM |
How did we gain progress as a species? We didn't rely on our intitution- we observed.
Ah, but how did we survive as a species? Wouldn't intuition played a very large role in ensuring our continuation as a species? Much like instincts we see in other animals... | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 8:48:02 AM | A third option could be, "They might exist."
A fourth option could be, "They probably don't exist and we are mistaking other, unrelated, as yet unknown natural phenomena for ghosts." There are probably a whole lot of other options, some take into account the FACT that many people have witnessed absolutely mind blowing phenomena.
But you ARE closed minded... at least about this topic. There is no denying it. Don't feel sad, I'm sure that there are somethings that I am closed minded about too.
I don't mind the 'great horror' that you described. I have chosen to re-evaluate my conclusions and am pleased with my re-evaluation (no horror here). I cannot expect you to understand for you have not chosen to re-evaluate your conclusions. Just because I accept that our scientific knowledge is a work in progress it doesn't mean that the laws of physics affect me any less. It's all a working model (final conclusions are not necessary and in fact counterproductive).
In the case of ghosts we have overwhelming anecdotal evidence (of something) and barely any tangible evidence (I'm no fool you know). I'm just stating that based on my experimentation I am quite sure that there is something of consciousness which survives the death process. (or at least I have encountered mechanisms which exactly mimic this possibility)
I do not accept all possibilities as equal, that would be silly, though I do accept all possibilities as possible (that is the very defintion of the word). Some are more or less probable.
I am not asking that we abandon the scientific process... that would be silly (I like technology) . I am asking that we do not place the scientific process on a pedestal and prostrate ourselves to it. It is a tool and as such is not infallible (for the minds that interpret the results are human).
We are not our brains. Did you know that you, all matter, is mostly 'empty space'? Only because you are 'vibrating' (my terminology is no doubt inaccurate) at a similar frequency to the wall that your hand does not go right through it, but there is a lot of stuff that does go right through the wall (like me when I am apparently projected outside of my body, or those hypothetical ghosts)
The problem with conclusions is that they are final. Again, I prefer working conclusions, allowing for change over time.
I understand how we have learned about radio waves and gravity, we observed, we experimented, we observed again and formed working theories and finally laws (which have to be revised once in a while). Studying the human mind might require a different process seeing as reality is filtered through that very medium.
You think of me as unscientific, nothing could be further from the truth. I was curious, I investigated, I revised my personal beliefs. I will generally not passionately share my opinion on topics I have not investigated (at least a little). | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 12:28:57 PM | >>>Ah, but how did we survive as a species?
Survival is totally different. I'm not saying that intitution has no purpose in society- but I'd rather someone measure me my gas than to guess it. I'd trust a compass over a gut feeling any day of the week.
>>>A third option could be, "They might exist."
Thats giving creedance to both beliefs- that something can both exist and not exist at the same time- which is completely impossible. By saying it might exist, you are taking the safe route- but no progress has ever been gained by saying both sides of a contradicting argument are right- having a maybe take role in reality means that reality changes from person to person- and it doesn't. Regardless of your hestiation towards absolutes, reality IS an absolute.
>>>"They probably don't exist and we are mistaking other, unrelated, as yet unknown natural phenomena for ghosts."
So thats the same as saying "They do not exist"- only you wish to justify the naysayers. It is still saying it doesn't exist.
>>>But you ARE closed minded... at least about this topic.
And you are desparately clinging to the hope that reality is a static that changes from person to person in hopes that you don't have to hurt someones feelings- Don't be sad- its a noble effort, although it only works to harm actual progress.
>>>I don't mind the 'great horror' that you described.
You'd rather live in a universe made of not the unknown, but the unknowable? Not that we simply do not know, but that it is impossible to know, and any attempts to research and study something is pointless?
Then what are you doing here? If you are certain there are no answers to be had, then why ask questions?
>>>It's all a working model (final conclusions are not necessary and in fact counterproductive).
So we are to hold off all conclusions until the end of time?? Or until everything, everywhere is known?
If thats true, then I'd suggest you rip out all the electricity in your house(the conclusion that electricity works is counterproductive to finding complete and total conclusions)- and pipes(the concept of running water is based on an absolute)- and the entire frame(the conclusion that wood protects you from the cold and helps insulate heat is not known for certain, as there are no facts until we have all the facts)
You survive entirely by the concept of absolutes, while denying absolutes exist.
>>>Some are more or less probable.
And you choose to support the ones that conteracts the ways we can predict how your car works, how your children are born, and how the Earth orbits the sun.
>>> I am asking that we do not place the scientific process on a pedestal and prostrate ourselves to it. It is a tool and as such is not infallible (for the minds that interpret the results are human).
I know- I never said we know everything- but because we do not know everything doesn't mean we can't come to some basic conclusions. You wish to use the scientific method for weather prediction, for heart surguries, for construction and demolition- to explain life and the universe and our place in it. You equally wish to use an absolute reality to be certain that when you order a Gallon of gas, you don't get 1/2 gallon, or when you take a shower the water doesn't change into snakes- reality is an absolute- the realities we experience now is the same reality, the same laws everyone experiences, everywhere, for all of recorded history- you wish to take all that we learned for granted, accept all the advancements we've developed from the tandum work of both an absolute reality and the scientific method- use these conclusions to keep your car running and your heart running- but at the same time, declare the methods we used are wrong. And refuse to explain WHY.
And why? Because the conclusions we gained from an measuring and observing an absolute reality defies one conclusion over the millions. That since you have a gut feeling that ghosts exist, it doesn't matter that our observations come to the opposite conclusion.
Although I do find it funny you say science is flawed because the human mind is flawed- and yet, you're unable to apply the same skepticism to ghosts. Somehow, the human mind is flawed when science is involved, but when someone sees a light they cannot explain, then the human mind is infallible.
Nonetheless, science is not infallible- its a tool, for measuring and observing- abandoning that tool because it doesn't give you the answers you assumed were true is like abandoning your compass because it wouldn't point you to where heaven is, instead turning to cutting a chickens head off and using the entrails to find your way.
>>> but there is a lot of stuff that does go right through the wall (like me when I am apparently projected outside of my body, or those hypothetical ghosts)
You see, you'd gain alot more crediblity if you would have said "quarks" or something thats been proven to actually exist.
>>>The problem with conclusions is that they are final. Again, I prefer working conclusions, allowing for change over time.
What makes you think they are final? Do you think that if we discover a way to "measure" or observe ghosts, that we would simply claim they oppose our conclusions, and thus our observations are faulty?
Science doesn't work like that. We alter our conclusions based on our observations all the time. Hell, I literally said, "if new information arrises, of course we can re-evaluate our conclusions- theres nothing wrong with that"
But I do agree- you want a conclusion where everyone can be right, even when they're wrong. Its not a meanhearted notion- but it is wrong, and no serious progress have nor ever will come from assuming that everything is possible, so long as you believe in it enough.
>>>Studying the human mind might require a different process seeing as reality is filtered through that very medium.
And, once again, we come to that all important part of discussion;
Why?
You wish to dictate that this is an exceptional part of study without explaining what makes it exceptional- why we can study how blood travels from our lungs to our heart and to our muscles, and reach conclusions based on that, but on the issue of the brain, we cannot study brainwaves and electrical impulses. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 3:18:12 PM | You stated that there were two positions regarding ghosts.
1. They exist.
2. They do not exist.
I believe that there are many more positions regarding this issue.
3. They could exist (considering the anecdotal evidence) but are difficult (or perhaps impossible with today's tech to prove)
4. They do not exist and what many people have witnessed are not actually ghosts but something else entirely.
I am not looking for credibility, if I were I would swallow my personal experience and subscribe to more popular points of view. You can substitute quark if you like (if it helps you understand the gist of my perspective). | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 3:45:39 PM | >>>3. They could exist (considering the anecdotal evidence) but are difficult (or perhaps impossible with today's tech to prove)
Thats on the affirmative- saying they do- the reasons are irrelivant when talking about existence. You want us to believe there are many possiblities when discussing existence, but constantly only present the two possiblities with different reasons behind it.
For example, lets look at Dragons- one side could say they never existed. The other side say they could have existed but were wiped out by man. A third group says that they could have existed but were wiped out by a meteor. That doesn't mean there were three possiblities presented- there were two possiblies(either they do or do not exist), and of the two possblities one of them had two theories on why they are no longer around(natural extinction versus manmade extinction). | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 4:57:29 PM | I wasn't speaking of history. Of course mankind fails when they guess. Intuition is slightly different. It's hard to understand without having caught yourself doing it. Psychics, for example, are simply those who've practiced this kind of intuition.
What does it have to do with ghosts? Well, it's this kind of intution that those who've passed on more easily communicate to. Now, that's not to say that if you do nothing to build the ability, it won't happen. They seem to be
I'm not saying that if it's right, it's intuition, that would be a stupid thing to suggest. It feels different from a guess, and in better control, is pretty specific. Almost like being on a flawed radio frequency.
Why wouldn't it be possible for something to be unknowable? If it can't be sensed, as well as converted into said sense, yet exists in another form, is it not at least at the present unknowable? | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 4:59:11 PM | Oh, my bad. I seem to have not finished that sentence.
"They seem to be at the fringe of our consciousness." | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 6:31:46 PM | I am one that has had many experiences with ghosts, spirits or the paranormal since childhood. Science cannot really explain the paranormal. Maybe this is why we all call it the supernatural? Anyone, male or female and any age, can send me messages on this topic as I have no restrictions on who can send me messages.
Orion67 Ohio USA | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 8:01:32 PM | >>>Why wouldn't it be possible for something to be unknowable?
I find it funny that this was said immeadiately after claiming to know what ghosts are- thereby contradicting that very statement.
>>>Psychics, for example, are simply those who've practiced this kind of intuition.
No, psychics are people who practise cold reading, a form of grifting where someone take subtle clues from the person they are observing, and offers vague claims inorder to encourage the person to give up information to make less vague claims. Its a trick anyone can do, and con artists use it to take peoples money by lying to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
>>> If it can't be sensed, as well as converted into said sense
You're right- the belief of ghosts defies all sense.
>>>yet exists in another form
Thats what we are attempting to debate- weither or not it exists. In order to be certain something exists we need proof- not your conviction that you're right.
>>>Science cannot really explain the paranormal
It can, but people refuse to accept the answer science presents. Certainly is convient, isn't it? | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 8:36:48 PM | | I guess if you say that you do believe in ghosts... that means that you believe in the after-life... which brings up a whole bunch of other issues to discuss. If you say you don't believe... that doesn't necessarily mean that you don't believe in the after-life.... just that once there you can't communicate with this world. So... where do I stand?.... mmm.... well... I have experience some paranormal situations... but still not convinced there wasn't some scientific explanation.... but I do believe in the after-life... just not the Casper or Freddy Kruger-type ghosts. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/31/2008 5:13:12 AM | a jehovas witness once told me that "ghosts" do not exist
but demons do , and they will take on the form of a loved one or someone you knwo that is dead
or a human
this makes me shiver to my spine
i've always believed in spirits and had countless experiences with them
i've no doubt there are logical explanation for "noises " that i have heard
but theres no explanation for a doorknob rattling in front of me and when i stepped in and opened the door, there was no one inside ....mind you the room had sealed windows and there wouldnt have been any time for escape
with "spirits" i've learned there are usually explanations for what you hear, but what you SEE is always dead on | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/31/2008 7:23:56 AM | You sound a little confused or unsure as to what you understand in the concept of 'ghosts' (but then I suppose we all are).............
However if you intend on quoting chapter and verse from the Bible to explain matters then you are going through life with Blinkers on! For example if a 'werid' situation presented itself, would you reach to your Bible index and look for the relevant phenomena explaination? You would have to be a fool to depend on such entirely, as even as humans we have own our senses and you should learn to sharpen your own wits as to your own environment and therefore keep an open mind!
We are alwayz looking for explainations, and if the Bible is pointing reference to some of this phenomena that is 'masked with ulterior motives', you are merely reading someone's veiwpoint, as you are probably aware there are several different varing accounts of supernatural phenomena and not all pointing to anything as dangerous or serious as people realise.
However I am not denying the possibles......................... | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/31/2008 2:42:57 PM | I don't know. That's what the word "seem" is supposed to convey.
Also, though all the while science tells us psychic ability is all just a trick, the FBI, investigation agencies and police precincts have been employing it, with result. The problem is that there's such a hype set around it, that con artists are bound to take advantage. There's nothing superhuman about it, it happens to us quite often. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 1/1/2009 6:25:56 PM | Yep I do believe in ghost..
His name is George.. Anytime something happens and I can not find a good explanation
for it happening.. well "George did it" 
But seriously Yes I do believe in ghosts.
And I also have a few Guardian Angels looking after me. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 1/2/2009 1:01:55 AM | I don't get why people just throw "conservation of energy" around as proof or a hint of proof that Ghosts, afterlife, God, and Heaven exist.
First of all, looking at this whole thing logically:
-Our consciousness is a very unique collection of energy, it exists in a very complex biological structure known as the "Brain". Without such a structure to hold it, where does it go?
From life to death, energy gained, lost, and converted. Take a plant for instance. It grows from absorbing energy from the sun, and eating nutrients which convert into energy for plant growth. The organic matter that is either picked up or created is energy that plant uses, and releases either when dead or as part of it's normal processes.
In any case, energy within this universe is conserved, but it's state is not. All the energy in you, all the pure energy that makes up matter, that makes up everything on this planet, and every other planet in this solar system was once in a massive Star. The energy on this planet, once life formed, eventually transferred into very complex structures like us.
Energy may be conserved by the laws of physics, but it's state is another story. There's no reason to think our consciousness magically moves off as some form of energy, completely intact in it's state forever.
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As for ghosts to begin with, from what I hear you remember everything from "past lives" and everything about being a ghost once you die. This life on Earth is just something you choose to do, to experience like a movie or something. I always wondered about it..
Think about that for a second... YOU, your "Consciousness", your personality, everything about "You" was created from the experience and memories from Birth. Some genetics is to blame for certain "traits", however your conscious mind is a product of a lifetime of memories.
Everyone lives their lives differently, from a different perspective, and in doing so, become unique. You're You. Now when you die, your "spirit" which is definitely NOT you lives on. It has all the knowledge and memory of your life to add to it's already vast memory.
This "spirit" who is not "human" lived or sat in and watched you live your life, and when you die -- you're dead. However, this other entity lives on | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 2/7/2009 9:23:51 PM | Well, I have seen what someone would call a ghost. A few times I saw them.
God strongly warns against communicating with them or conjuring them.
I have seen a demon also.
And witches are not just "hocus-pocus". They are real, and I know from experience that they are.
Finally, I know that imps are real. From experience.
But the most note worthy thing that I have confirmed is the existance of God and his son Jesus.
Not a plug, just telling the truth about the spiritual things that I have seen and experienced.
I will give you and everyone strong advice not to pursue ghosts or spirit entities. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 2/7/2009 11:33:54 PM | well working with the npi i have seen some very messed up things, in my life and i am not ruleing anything out, and always keep a open mind to all things out there in the night, but i would still like to get more proof and a better understanding of the supernatural
for more info on what i do go check out the npi page
http://www.npimi.com/Home.php | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 2/8/2009 6:36:18 PM | | Yes I believe they exist. Just read about Ed and Lorraine Warren, or their nephew John Zapphis. Their experiences have no other explaination. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 2/8/2009 9:22:48 PM | | i believe there are alot of things in nature that science can't fully explain, thus meaning, in a small way, yes i do. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 2/8/2009 10:01:46 PM |
God strongly warns against communicating with them or conjuring them.
I think God meant conjuring them, but I'm not sure about the communication part. Depends on what religion one follows I guess.
In most cases, they are not conjured but they are trying to communicate with us. Usually for a valid reason and if one can find out why, then usually they can leave to rest when they are assisted.
But the most note worthy thing that I have confirmed is the existance of God and his son Jesus.
Where there is Good, there is also evil. A very good thing to always remember. Protect yourself always. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 2/9/2009 8:51:06 AM | pot isn't a drug, heroine, cocaine, crack, crystal meth, those are drugs.
pot is harmless most of the time. i'm not saying it's good for you, but alcohol isn't any better for you that pot anyway. and at least pot is all natural. don't make quote genesis up in here. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 2/9/2009 9:36:41 AM | >>>Since you have used the term "Ad Hominem" its YOU who is actually the guilty party.
Not at all- you claimed knowledge you couldn't possibly have- the reason ghosts exist. I asked how you could know that(and, equally, misunderstood a statement about god)
I never put you down or made any personal attacks- you're the one who went into my profile, looked at the options I choose to express myself, and from that, determined I was wrong- not because I said something wrong, but because I choose to take drugs.
If you feel I broke the rules, by all means- report me. But I stand by my belief that I have done nothing wrong, except both having the nerve of asking you for sources, and smoking pot on my free time(which putting me down for it is against the forum rules of no personal attacks, but still....)
If I were to switch my profile to say "never" under drugs, would I suddenly be more capible for this discussion?
>>>Of course WITHOUT having a shred of knowledge or by doing any research.
....Which is why I am asking for your source..... | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 2/9/2009 9:51:58 AM | I believe in ghosts.
I have never seen or felt a ghost.
I have however on numerous occasions (40 or 50 I guess) left my own body to float around in varying degrees of freed0m. It is possible that my out of body experiences are nothing more than a really elaborate hallucination but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and smells like a duck it is probably a duck.
Now... it still leaves a bunch of questions. IF ghosts are real why are we not inundated with ghosts, why are we not seeing them everyday (a lot of people have died). What are ghosts doing?
My own hypothesis is that ghosts are not the 'souls' of the deceased but rather shells of their slowly degrading personalities. They have no real consciousness.
Spirits (this is going to get a kick out of many) would be non-corperal beings. I believe that while I am out of my body that I am a spirit.
Of course this is all very un-scientific... but then again science is pretty much only concerned with things that it can measure... ghosts unfortunately are still outside of this realm (ghostbusters technology aside). | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 2/9/2009 5:52:54 PM | I used to believe in ghosts. I guess I just grew out of it like I did Santa Claus. After I made my transition to agnostic then to atheist, there was no turning back. It's hard to believe in ghosts if there's no afterlife.  Although I do miss watching Ghost Hunters on TV.
The reason I used to believe in ghosts is because I lied to myself. I used to think that every little distortion of light was a ghost. Then I'd over think that thing I saw, and eventually it became human like. It didn't help that I was involved with a large group of like minded individuals too. We basically bounced ideas off each other to validate our irrational beliefs. I know better now.
After becoming an atheist, one trick I learned was to say "I don't know." I'm much more comfortable saying those 3 words now that I was when I believed in gods, ghosts, and whatever. Just because I thought I saw a shadowy figure in the dark doesn't mean it's the invisible spirit of my long deceased grandfather. I just don't know, and I'm fine with that. | |
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