| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/16/2008 10:05:41 PM | Yea sure. Lets experiment. Close your eyes and i will walk past you 5 times. Then i will lay hot piece of heating duct next to you. Maybe i should apoligize i can see how easily the two can be confused. Maybe science should find a way to read post acurrately? Since i stated that ""annoying if it happened there"" implying that it did not only happen at my bedside.
Maybe i should have been more specific. When i say "bang "on the wall im not talking about woody outside pecking. I am talking more of a car hitting the wall wfo style.
I'm still waiting for a reply to my origional question from the super scientist we have here.
Since you don't believe anything exist unless science can prove it then there is the contradiction there that either every single thing to discover has been discoverd and we no longer need scientist or there are still things that are not known. Why is it so inconcievable that spirits/ghost or whatever it may be is one of them?
What calender do scientist use? Because obviously the one the rest of us use B.C and A.D does not apply to scientist. And i am really not trying to be a smartass either. As hard as you guys are being about it i think there are a lot of questions i have for you now.
Again, i'll ask. Up until the point scientist discover something,does it technically not exist? This makes me think of colombus "discovering" america. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 7:27:18 AM |
Up until the point scientist discover something,does it technically not exist?
Something either exists or it does not. Our knowledge of it is not required. Rocks, black holes, and mortal humans exist. Smurfs, God, immortal humans, and ghosts do not.
The reason we know that ghosts do not exist has nothing to do with the fact that nobody has ever observed them under controlled conditions. It has everything to do with the fact that a living, physical brain is a basic requirement for consciousness to exist. Consciousness without a brain would be like bloodflow without a circulatory system. (This is also the reason that there cannot be an afterlife.) | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 8:41:18 AM | There is lots documented research of Consciousness after death
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
Everything has a frequency.
http://cellphonesafety.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/the-frequency-of-the-human-bodyand-your-coffee/
Existence is a frequency –
We can perceive all that is within our scope or bandwidth.
But it’s very narrow bandwidth of what exists.
Ghosts -- apparitions, are bandwidths—not normally perceived—
What are they—I don’t know—do they exist---MOST-- likely… | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 8:53:06 AM |
There is lots documented research of Consciousness after death
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
That is a bullsh*t statement with a link to a bullsh*t website as "evidence". A "Near Death Experience" is NOT the same as actually being dead! (The proof of this is that the people who have had such experiences are around to talk about them. Actual death is an irreversable condition, and nobody who has truly died ever comes back to talk about it.)
Another reason that ghosts cannot exist is that physical results require physical causes. Without bones and muscles, an alleged ghost cannot move objects, make sounds, etc. In any event, consciousness requires a brain. This has been proven by the fact that every though corresponds to measurable, physical activity in the brain. Nobody who has read any of the literature on brain research could seriously entertain the idea of a disembodied consciousness. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 9:42:00 AM | I sent my soul into the invisible,
Some letter of that after life to spell.
And by and by my soul returned to me
And answered, I myself am heaven and hell.
. -Omar Khayyam
I am a firm believer in that we shape our own worlds with our thoughts and beliefs. Some of you want to believe there is no afterlife, and so for you, there will be no afterlife - no biggie - it is what you believe.
Some want to believe in ghosts and so for them ghosts exist. As I have said before, I have seen spectral images - I call them ghosts because that is the best way to describe what I see. They are not evil and/or demonic probably because I do not believe they are evil and/or demonic. For others, they may believe ghosts are evil and so what they believe is manifested.
I know the scientific community would like everything to fall into order in nice, easily quantifiable packages but the truth is that the natural order is chaos. Some things can be explained/tested/retested and others cannot. The limit is within ourselves, not the universe. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 11:45:56 AM |
I am a firm believer in that we shape our own worlds with our thoughts and beliefs. Some of you want to believe there is no afterlife, and so for you, there will be no afterlife - no biggie - it is what you believe.
No. There is an objective reality. It is what it is quite apart from what anyone chooses to believe about it. Science does not support the idea of an afterlife, but science is either correct about this or not. Reality itself does not vary from one individual to another, only their perception of it varies. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 12:35:20 PM | There is an objective reality. Who/what defines this "objective reality?"
This conversation is like two of Plato's cave dwellers arguing about what is Reality when both are just seeing the images as they are reflected on the wall of the cave.
What you perceive as "objective reality" is really your subjective impression of the object, therefore, not objective at all. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 4:08:07 PM | | I've had one experience when I was about 7 or 8 which is probably the only reason I believe that something other than what we know does exist. I was lying on my back sleeping in the middle of the night. I woke up and right above me was this face with clearly distinguishable features. It had no body, just a face and it was shining. It was also saying something to me but I was so scared that I really wasn't listening, I was more concerned about getting out of there which I did as soon as I could force my body which was frozen with fear to move. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 5:57:58 PM |
I've had one experience when I was about 7 or 8 which is probably the only reason I believe that something other than what we know does exist. I was lying on my back sleeping in the middle of the night. I woke up and right above me was this face with clearly distinguishable features. It had no body, just a face and it was shining. It was also saying something to me but I was so scared that I really wasn't listening, I was more concerned about getting out of there which I did as soon as I could force my body which was frozen with fear to move.
& you've been believing this was a ghost for how long? You had an episode of sleep paralysis, look it up. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 7:11:00 PM | | It wasn't sleep paralysis. I never suffered from anything like that before or since. I know what I saw and it was as real as anything else. I wasn't actually paralyzed I was just too scared to move. when i finally decided to jump out of bed I did. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 9:45:10 PM | | Unfortunately for us, when our hearts stop beating, and the electrical activity in our spines and brains dissipates, we will be quite dead and no longer retain any form of consciousness. I however take comfort in the fact that the atoms that comprise me will continue to exist for at least 10^36 years, give or take. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/17/2008 9:47:52 PM | | I don't believe in ghosts; but even more importantly, they don't believe in me, either. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/18/2008 1:34:44 AM | >>>Why is it so inconcievable that spirits/ghost or whatever it may be is one of them?
Not inconceivable- irrational.
Its not that I believe Ghosts are inconceivable- I believe they are conceived.
I believe that it is far more likely that you misinterpreted the situation-maybe your sensed something louder because of the silence beforehand- maybe some neighbour kids were messing with you- maybe you remember it as far worse than it really was. I believe it is infinitely more likely than there exists a being who exists outside of our existence, and whose only form of communication is to mess with us while we're in our beds. And if you honestly wish for me to even begin to conceive the possibility that ghosts are not conceived, I'm going to need more evidence than "I once had an experience that I couldn't altogether understand what was going on- it clearly had to be a ghost."
>>>Up until the point scientist discover something,does it technically not exist?
When it cannot be observed or proven in any way shape or form in an objective reality
>>>I am a firm believer in that we shape our own worlds with our thoughts and beliefs.
Wha.....
...
What??!
So if I believe- I mean truly, wholeheartedly believe that I can turn poison into juice by the power of my thoughts, will that poison shape reality so much that it would be perfectly safe to serve to the neighbor kids?
Hopefully now you see the sheer terror I feel when someone says........that.
Reality can be changed by physical actions- Me making juice and serving it to people- but my thoughts and emotions have no physical action on reality- if I'm sad it doesn't rain and trees grow ill around me.
>>>What you perceive as "objective reality" is really your subjective impression of the object, therefore, not objective at all.
But such notions can be created to invalidate the entire ideal of an objective reality. Not that it matters much- the concept that reality can be changed based on thought alone can very quickly be proven- because no one through thought alone has changed reality. Ever. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/18/2008 1:54:21 AM | Anything observed has to have an electromagnetic form of some sort. Else it is not observed. (A frequency source.)
It can be a physical something.
Or it can be nothing more than a neurons firing in the obsevers brain. (Whether real unknown external source or some kind of dream state or a hallucination.) | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/18/2008 9:13:40 AM |
But such notions can be created to invalidate the entire ideal of an objective reality. Not that it matters much- the concept that reality can be changed based on thought alone can very quickly be proven- because no one through thought alone has changed reality. Ever.
Well put. Glad to see that there are at least a few sane people here, capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality!
Anyone who actually believes that thought alone can change reality should try the following experiment:
Stand in front of a large rock (preferably barefoot.) Spend as long as you want trying every known new age nonsense technique to deny the existence of the rock (chant "there is no rock!", pray for the rock to disappear, burn incense, or whatever.) Now kick the rock, hard. You will very quickly learn the meaning of objective reality! | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/18/2008 2:46:03 PM | I've experienced some weird things/events that I hesitate to label, just because everyone has their own definition of the labels. I've seen and spoken to what can be thought of as ghosts. I've had spiritual experiences that aided my life and that nearly destroyed it, too. I believe in what I have experienced, and I am content with my own interpretation of those experiences but I won't disagree with anyone who has alternate interpretation- with the caveat that I was the one who experienced it and they are translating from my description, and if they want to call me crazy, that's OK too, because how would I know if I wasn't? I just know that I'm functional and I contribute to society and I don't press my beliefs on to anyone else.
Point of view, in terms of belief, is everything. Perception is reality. As for changing reality with thought, I don't believe that it can be "changed", but it can be "accommodated" or maybe I'll come up with a better word than that. I've seen a person who was adept at changing HIS reality with thought- the solid object was not an obstacle in his path, but it remained there for me. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/18/2008 5:52:26 PM | What I said was:
I am a firm believer in that we shape our own worlds with our thoughts and beliefs. I did not say that thoughtcould make a rock less dense or turn poison into punch nor did I say that thought could change reality. Some people must have everything compartmentalized and explained and I am saying it is not that simple in every situation. Our very perception of what we believe is reality colors what is reality and so to say definitively that NO noise is caused by "ghosts" is just as absurd as saying ALL noise is caused by ghosts.
The question posed in this thread is "do you believe in ghosts", not "you must be a wacko if you believe in ghosts." It would be truely refreshing to have those of you who scoff actually try to silence your internal editor and really think about others have said here. The knee-jerk cynical response to those of us who are brave enough to say we do believe is tiresome.
I gave an example of a ghost that I saw on Halloween - not an evil werewolf or scary demon - a cute little bichon frese puppy. And others have told you what they have seen and/or heard. Why not try considering the information you are given, instead of just trying to tear it apart? A confident scientist would be more curious, I think, and would not be so quick to silence something they can't explain. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/18/2008 7:55:18 PM | I love your humer here thats great
I laugh at the show it does crack me up
as far as to rather or not ghost exist it dont matter much to me I am a Christian and do have my beliefs I have concluded from Bible teaching and reading I do like to research out the truth about different things however Truth seems to come by Faith and Faith is something you cannot give to another person. There are certainly things that are unexplainable when it comes to the supernatural and If I experiance a presence in the room Im in and I feel freaked out Im eather leaving or hiding under the covers LOL I will be thinking In the name of Jesus get out of here he said we have authority and If Im freaked I will use it yet still hide Ha Hah Ha | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/18/2008 8:08:47 PM | | You are too funny I love it and I totally agree just because one believes something is real does not make it reality. I can see where one may believe this is true for our thoughts are powerful and can control the outcome of how our life turns out for example if one believes he or she is a failure and no one likes him and they will never suceed in life or school or a job well then eventually this will be so because thoughts controll our core and our actions eventully but even with this being so our thoughts on what exists as far as ghosts, God , Demons or other such things there is a Truth and no matter what we believe wont change the truth of what is. If I dont believe in heaven there is Still a heaven and if I dont believe in Hell there is still a Hell. If I believe I will live after jumping off the Empire State building I will Die disbelieving that as my life flashes before me on the way down LOL. What one thinks in his heart so is he as a person but what one thinks in his heart about another or an object dont make it what we believe we arent that powerful. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/19/2008 12:48:59 AM | >>>I did not say that thoughtcould make a rock less dense or turn poison into punch nor did I say that thought could change reality.
If your intention wasn't that reality can be changed by our thoughts, then maybe you shouldn't have used a word that is a synonym for change. Is it somehow my fault that instead of saying "I believe people interpret their surroundings independently" you said you believe people shape their surroundings based on their own thoughts? How was I supposed to interpret that?
Ironically enough, by chastzing me for interpreting your statement differently than you intended, you actually proved an excellent point- how people interpret their reality doesn't change that reality- that I interpreted your statement as meaning you can change your reality doesn't change your orginal statement- its my interpretation of it, and yes, my interpretation was WRONG- just as anyones interpretation of reality can be wrong- and the only method to judge this reality is through an objective method.
Without objectism, we would both be right.
>>>The question posed in this thread is "do you believe in ghosts", not "you must be a wacko if you believe in ghosts."
So? I am just as free to take the con veiw on ghosts existance as they are allowed to take the pro veiw. Is this thread not intended to challenge peoples beliefs? If people were not willing or free to express a contary belief, then this would be nothing more than people bragging about how they saw a ghost, and this thread would be nothing but mental masterbation.
I mean, you gotta be seriously kidding me- you want me to express my beliefs whilst at the same time accepting any and all beliefs that pass through? That people who believe in ghosts are allowed to express any absurbities that comes to their head, but if I express my own thoughts, my own beliefs, that I am somehow on lesser ground?
Would you rather I be as an intellical whore, accepting any and all beliefs as equally valid, regardless if there is zero evidence whatsoever than people having experiences they cannot completely explain, and thus clearly there exists a being that defies all known reason and logic?
>>> A confident scientist would be more curious, I think, and would not be so quick to silence something they can't explain.
Because thats how the human mind works- I thought I saw a dog in the corner of my eye the other day in my house- which is more logical- that I made a mistake, or there exists an being that defies all our tenets of existance?
I feel sorry for the scientists who hunt for illusions by people who are so proud that they are willing to edit reality to suit their mistakes. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/19/2008 5:39:55 AM | | When Science comes up with an explanation, noone wants to hear it. Because it ruins the fun. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/19/2008 7:56:05 AM | Every time I read someone saying something doesn't exist, a famous quote comes to mind. I'm not sure who said it but:
"It is a primitive form of thought thinking that something does or doesn't exist"
Intoart's example of kicking a rock with a bare foot certainly is a valid example of objective reality that exists regardless of how much fuzzy-bunny New Age thinking we might apply to the situation. However...
To say science hasn't observed a phenomenon isn't a valid argument against ghosts or other "supernatural" phenomenon existing, as far as I'm concerned. Black holes probably exist. We've seen their effects on their surrounding environment but we haven't actually observed one directly. We haven't seen the Higgs boson but scientists are pretty sure its there and are willing to invest billions in a particle accelerator to observe it. Similarly with more ephemeral things like gravity and time: we see their effects, have pretty good explanations for them but have yet to observe a graviton or chronoton.
Ultimately, science is limited by the conditions of the experiment and equipment used to observed the results.
Absolutes are comforting. However, reality is a far more varied pallet of grays. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/19/2008 12:00:37 PM | I thought I saw a dog in the corner of my eye the other day in my house... This example is not at all like what I described. Let me clarify:
1. I was walking down a twilight street at the head of a group of people at approximately 7 pm PST.
2. There was a group of people walking towards us – approximately 5-7 people.
3. We were approximately a car length apart and walking towards each other.
4. At their feet, in the middle of the group was a puppy on a leash. It was jumping up at the feet of the people and leaping to keep up with them.
5. I saw this dog straight on – it was white and looked like a bichon frese breed.
6. As I turned my head to tell my daughter to look at the puppy, it disappeared out of my line of vision. Note – it did not move and it was not picked up - just one minute it was in my line of vision and as I turned my head, it vanished.
7. I snapped my head back to look for it but there was no dog with that group. I looked around to see if there was another group of people with a puppy or any puppy at all, which there wasn’t.
8. I watched this group walk right by me and there was no puppy in anyone’s arms and there was no puppy trailing a long behind them.
9. There were other dogs in the area, but they were big dogs - not puppies - and there wasn't a bichon frese in the area - puppy or otherwise.
So, feel free to dissect this experience … p.s. – you can rule out alcohol, drugs, and/or lack of sleep, or psychosis as I was not suffering from any of these handicaps - regardless of what anyone may think. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/19/2008 12:50:39 PM | | The non-existance of ghosts is pretty much impossible to prove. At the same time, many people have experienced something that leads them to believe ghosts do exist. I have no such experience so I leave the existance or non-existance an open subject. If someone believes ghosts exist, I have no reason to insult them or discount their intelligence for such beliefs. Pretty much the same applies for people who have concluded there cannot be ghosts but I question their command of logic. The comfort people derive from spiritual beliefs is usually a positive thing except when they try to impose those beleifs or derivitives of those beliefs on others. Imposing non-beliefs or derivatives can be just as destructive. The stories about ghosts add greatly to the human experience but I can't pass judgement on their validity, just enjoy the story. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 11/19/2008 12:56:33 PM | >>>To say science hasn't observed a phenomenon isn't a valid argument against ghosts or other "supernatural" phenomenon existing, as far as I'm concerned.
Science has attempted it,many times though- but people create qualifiers that make it impossible to veiw. We believe blackholes exist because we've seen and observed the changes they do the enviroment- we're attempting to prove or disprove the Higgs Boson in controlled conditions, to know once and for all(on this note I gotta admit I have no idea what a Higgs Boson is, but clearly we're examining the possiblity in controlled conditions)
But ghosts? Ghosts only seem to exist in peoples minds- they cannot be controlled, observed, or examined. There are no ghosts under controlled conditions- we cannot dissect ghosts to see how they exist or what substains them. Whats more, they defy everything we attribute to life- they are not born, they do not eat, they are not made of matter that can be affected by all matter in existence, unless *they* want to, and they cannot die. How you could look at something that defies everything we know about existance, with no evidence that they even exist, and say they most definately exist because we want them too??
If you accept that we know Ghosts exist because we do not understand everything in the universe, then you must accept that Bigfoot exists- and UFO's- and Chupacabras- and Mermaids and Spaghetti Monsters and Vampires and those little Keebler elves that live in trees in those commericals. If you accept that something exists solely on the premise that someone else claims it exists, then all bets are off- existence is open to any interpretation of any passerby who might have the strength of confidence to announce that they believe in an absurbity. | |
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