| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/10/2008 1:59:56 PM |
but there is millions of recorded events of people being mistaken... (emphasis supplied) - a bit hyperbolic this afternoon, yes? Or, perhaps you would care to cite some sources to back up your claim? | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/10/2008 2:09:51 PM | You're kidding me, right?
Look at any trial where the eyewitnesses contradicted the video camera.
I mean, you......you are asking me to prove that people make mistakes?? | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/10/2008 2:53:42 PM | | We are talking about if you believe in ghosts in this thread - not what happens at trial. I thought you meant you have "millions" of recorded pieces of evidence showing that people were mistaken about ghostly sightings. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/10/2008 4:15:08 PM | Steven Hawking talked about premonitions, and explanations for them, in a Brief History of Time. I wish I'd kept a copy of it to quote him, but I didn't unfortunately. Going by my memory, he did not say that premonitions were impossible as the scientists on this forum are. He tried to explain them in terms of the way time works and he believes that humans don't really understand time as much as they think they do.
I've had one certain precognitive dream in my life....When I had the dream I thought nothing of it, so why would I have mentioned it to anyone? Then the events unrolled exactly as they did in my dream. At that point, I told people about it. Some people believed in me, but most didn't....So if it happens again, I wouldn't bother sharing that info, because I'd be labelled as crazy or looking for attention. It also means that it could not be proven in a laboratory. I'm simply too lazy to record and submit my dreams every day....That's why it would be almost impossible for me to prove it for anyone. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/10/2008 8:33:46 PM | >>> We are talking about if you believe in ghosts in this thread
Since when? This poor, poor thread has been derailed from ghosts to quantum phsyics to auras to predicting the future. I was talking in general- and in general, the human mind is incredibly and unbelievely unreliable.
That fact, I believe, is good evidence that ghosts are a figment of peoples imagination. That its more likely that people interpret their surroundings falsely than they are experiencing something supernatural, be it ghosts or seeing the future.
Sorry for the confusion(although, ironically, your confusion continues to prove my point)
>>> Steven Hawking talked about premonitions, and explanations for them, in a Brief History of Time.
Didn't someone already mention that in this thread? My response to that is the same- he's free to his opinion, but I believe he is wrong. Issac Newton was a strong and passionate believer in God- is that fact significant enough alone to prove that God exists? No- So Hawking believing in premonition has the same effect- its nice that he believes it, but why should it change my or anyone elses opinion?
>>>It also means that it could not be proven in a laboratory.
Golly me, isn't that convinent!
>>>I'm simply too lazy to record and submit my dreams every day....That's why it would be almost impossible for me to prove it for anyone.
So you believe a truth, but do not believe in attempting a way to back it up outside of your own conviction that its true?
Imagine how many dreams you could have recorded rather than spending time challenging me to accept your convictions without evidence? | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 156 | |
| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/10/2008 9:03:39 PM | | Ghosts do NOT exist--they are figments of someones over active imagination. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/10/2008 9:08:49 PM | Ghost don't exist. It's all in your heads people!
Hell, if ghost did exist, that means God probably exist. Therefore, destroying any kind of scientific fact! | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/10/2008 10:10:59 PM | I'm not sure if I believe in them but I am not saying I don't either. A lot of people believe in God because a book (or a person) told them God exists. Now I am not saying I believe one way or the other just because someone tells me to. I find the subject fascinating. Science can't explain everything. I like to dig in and find out the whys of what is going on. If there is a factual explanation, I'd like to find it. But there are some things that just can't be explained.
As for the ghost hunters show. I like it. They've shown some interestign stuff. I like the show they did at the St Augustine lighthouse. And I do watch the show just about every week if time permits or I don't fall asleep. I'm not embarrased to admit that. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/10/2008 11:12:32 PM | >>>Science can't explain everything.
Not yet. But the universe works under a clear set of rules and laws- discovering these laws through objective examination is the only means to understanding the universe- not making assumptions that contradict currently proven laws without even so much as evidence to support it. To do that actually harms serious progress. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 7:10:00 AM | | People who believe that they have all the answers should take a moment to read about Quantum Physics... brings back a sense of wonder (of course many people might be unable to live with a sense of wonder seeing as it was squashed out of them as children). | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 8:01:53 AM |
Not yet. But the universe works under a clear set of rules and laws- discovering these laws through objective examination is the only means to understanding the universe- not making assumptions that contradict currently proven laws without even so much as evidence to support it. To do that actually harms serious progress.
Once again, extremely well put. Jiperly, you may be the most clear-headed member of this forum. I try to express many of the same ideas that you do, but you are much better with words! | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 8:09:10 AM |
People who believe that they have all the answers should take a moment to read about Quantum Physics... brings back a sense of wonder (of course many people might be unable to live with a sense of wonder seeing as it was squashed out of them as children).
I have studied quantum mechanics for years. It does produce a sense of wonder, but it is not unique in that regard. ALL science invokes the sense of wonder (much more so than religious or spiritual BS because, in addition to being amazing, it is also TRUE!)
The really sad thing is that so many people cannot see the wonder of science, and must instead rely on a bunch of hogwash to achieve the same effect. A person who can watch (for example) a David Attenborough nature special without being amazed is very sad indeed! | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 8:48:46 AM | | When I was a teenager I, like many people in this forum, thought that people who believed in ghosts, ufos, or other such 'para'normal event were bs, the product of gullible or unbalanced minds. So, when I was told that practicing certain spiritual disciplines would produce such effects I laughed and jumped in with the intention of proving those same folks wrong. My opinion only changed after about 6 months of continued practice... and I have not look back since. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 9:12:43 AM |
When I was a teenager I, like many people in this forum, thought that people who believed in ghosts, ufos, or other such 'para'normal event were bs, the product of gullible or unbalanced minds. So, when I was told that practicing certain spiritual disciplines would produce such effects I laughed and jumped in with the intention of proving those same folks wrong. My opinion only changed after about 6 months of continued practice... and I have not look back since.
When you were a teenager, you were correct! Since then, you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed into believing a load of crap. How sad. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 9:25:25 AM | Again, xzanthius, if your methods prove that such events exist, then why aren't you going for the Million Dollar prize for proving it to the JREF? You're not creating crediblity by claiming something is true, can be proven, but refuse to prove it.
I base my opinion on evidence- if there is evidence for what you say is true, yes, I will re-evaluate my opinion. But I need more evidence than your own convictions. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 9:54:48 AM | Intoart... why are you even bother posting on these forums? You are not bringing much to the discussion... I guess that you imagine that you are saving people from their 'delusions'... just save yourself dude.
there was no brainwashing, no low protein diet, no sleep deprivation, no hypnosis, no gurus, no joining a cult... just me, by myself expirimenting with meditation, breathing exercises, prayer and ritual... you keep making assumptions.
I don't belief in Sasquatch, my opinion is such that an impressive beast like that would have left more signs, bodies, etc., but I wouldn't say that there is ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE of such a thing existing, that would be arrogant, presumptive, and irrespectful (as well as unscientific). | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 10:11:00 AM | Jiperly
As I have already explained, I don't think that my methods can provide objective proof, beyond the documented prophetic dreams, and tarot reading... what I could offer JREF is a technique for allowing individuals find their own subjective proof. I have, in the past, contacted such societies (the Skeptic's Society) I offered to teach their group in a series of intensive workshops the techniques through which they could attain the same (or greater) results as I. They never contacted me back.
Here's one that apparently (not saying it does but...) can lead one to levitate (off hand I don't believe it right now either...but my mind is not closed)
Anuloma Viloma Pranayama
To be practice on an empty stomach.
Inhale through one nostril, pinch both nostrils closed, exhale through the other nostril, inhale through the other nostril, pinch both closed, exhale through the first, repeat for between 10 and 20 rounds.
Keep a ratio of 1:4:2 (inhale one count, hold for 4, exhale for 2).
Try to extend the length of time of each breath as long as possible.
NEVER let your breath become raspy, or syncopated; practiced incorrectly this technique can damage the lungs.
1. The first thing that you will experience is a kind of rigidity of the body (you might feel that you are paralysed, this is just a perception)
2. The second thing that you will experience is profuse sweating.
3. The third thing that you will experience is a kind of strange jumping around, like you are a leaf being blown by the wind (keep in mind you are sitting to practice this). I have not experienced this myself but have witnessed.
4. The fourth thing that you supposedly will experience is full blown levitation. (I have yet to witness this)
Other possible side effects, ingreased vigour, concentration, possible out of body experiences. The first two stages you probably will experience quite rapidly. the third after a couple years of ardent and daily practice, the fourth... who knows. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 12:59:40 PM | This thread is about ghosts... we are definitely wandering into a different arena. Not only is this thread about ghosts, it is a question about belief. No one has to prove anything to anyone - do you or don't you believe - end of question.
I don't give a flying rat's A** about a million dollar prize. I don't need a million dollars to validate what I believe. Money is not what makes my world go round. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 2:22:53 PM | The Million Dollars is the incentive. The real pursuit is truth. If you don't want the money, you can donate it to people who do need it.
If you really don't care about the prize, then you should at least care about validating that your beliefs are, in fact, based on truth and not speculation and supersitution. Or is truth not worth pursuing, so long as you have faith that you are right?
This topic is about the existence of "ghosts"(whatever that may entail)- the stance you have chosen places you to defend your beliefs- prove the existence of ghosts. My stance I have chosen places me to defend my own beliefs- disproving your beliefs. I cannot defend my beliefs without challenging yours, because I do not believe they ever existed.
If that troubles you, this is a voluntary public fourm. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 2:57:10 PM | I like this thread so I am just trying to keep it on track so it doesn't get deleted by the mods for derailment.
Or is truth not worth pursuing, so long as you have faith that you are right? That sounds more like your position than mine. I have not professed any sort of "faith" in what I have seen, just that I have experienced paranormal events.
I have stated that I have seen "ghosts" as recently as last month. I have described a situation and what I saw. Other people have shared their experiences. As far as my experiences, I personally do not know how to create a controlled environment at this time that would be able to recreate and duplicate them - that does not mean that they are unprovable, just that modern science has only gone so far.
I believe there are those in the scientific community that are trying to find a way to find the truth - to find the scientific basis for these experiences - which are numerous and varied - rather than just dismiss them outright. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 2:59:04 PM | String theory, multiple dimensions, observer created reality, wormholes, time travel.
Science does not disprove ghosts.
In fact the idea of ghosts is pretty mundane compared to science, and there could very well be many logical, scientific explanations for their existence. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 3:14:33 PM | As far as the offer of a million bucks for proof of the paranormal, it’s a sham.
As soon as something paranormal is scientifically proven it is no longer paranormal but theory or fact.
50 years ago particle wave duality could have been thought of as paranormal. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 3:39:41 PM | >>>that does not mean that they are unprovable, just that modern science has only gone so far.
Wait- so your proof is that there is no proof, but there will be? Couldn't it be equally likely that science never proves it, or even that science proves it conclusively wrong?
I'll re-evaluate my judgements on the day ghosts are proven to be true. Otherwise, theres no evidence other than people seeing things they cannot explain- which is completely natural, and could occur without the existence of ghosts.
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>>>As far as the offer of a million bucks for proof of the paranormal, it’s a sham.
Nope- as the price went up over the years(beginning as a challenge for $100), so did the legality. Both sides must agree to what applies as a success, and what applies to as a failure- a contract describing that is signed, and the tests are conducted. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/11/2008 4:24:15 PM |
>>>> Steven Hawking talked about premonitions, and explanations for them, in a Brief History of Time.
Didn't someone already mention that in this thread? My response to that is the same- he's free to his opinion, but I believe he is wrong. Issac Newton was a strong and passionate believer in God- is that fact significant enough alone to prove that God exists? No- So Hawking believing in premonition has the same effect- its nice that he believes it, but why should it change my or anyone elses opinion?
Yes, I mentioned it in this thread before because you are treating us like we know nothing because science does not back us up. What I'm saying is a credible scientist who studies the characteristics of time believes that some people do see glimpses of the future because his science opens the door to that possibility. That is not the same as someone having blind faith in a deity.
I bet that you would not argue with Steven Hawkings as you do with us.
I realize that to you it looks like I'm pulling a fast one by saying I had one precognitive dream so now it's too late to prove it; I know that your reaction is similar to what any sane person would think when they believe another person to be insane....But I'm not. I'm a highly respected member of the public, a publisher, a scientist, in fact. And I'm telling you, it did happen. Although you're never going to believe me, so I do wonder why I bother...I guess it's a bit of a personal insult to me that you think I might make something up to get attention
But yet the truth is that any event that happened in the past without evidence or witness cannot be proven to have happened.
Anyway, I know seeing the future is off the topic , but it does fit in with the idea that there are phenomena in our world that most people do not yet have explanations for (notwithstanding Dr. Hawking).
People attribute their own explanations to the phenomena that occur around them, which are probably not the correct explanations, but it doesn't mean the phenomena are not occurring...we just don't yet know why and what it all means. | |
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