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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/16/2008 4:20:20 PM | Ouija Boards are easy to prove false- take a group, and have them test it- if they "reach someone from the otherside", a few mintues in, ask them to wear blindfolds- while their blindfolds are on, turn the board upside down. If there is a ghost, it shouldn't matter if its upside down or not- but instead, people will move it to where they THINK the "Yes" "No" and letters are.
Moving the peice to form words is an Ideomotor effect- completely natural and not at all supernatural or have relation to ghosts or the dead- its people as a group moving the piece subconciously.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA5uYhXpa-E&feature=related | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/16/2008 6:24:07 PM |
And they still come to the conclusion that they are more comfortable with.
I don't believe everyone who comes to a conclusion that they have experienced a ghost, spirit, or anything not scientifically proven, have all come to a conclusion that they are 'comfortable with'. Some will come to that conclusion whilst not wanting to believe it at all...some who claim to have had pretty scary experiences would rather not have had them, or would rather there was a more explainable conclusion.
I've said it before- I'd re-evaluate my beliefs if there was some conclusive evidence found- hell, I'm pretty sure I've promoted people to find and discover evidence to challenge me more than anyone else in this thread- but that doesn't mean I should accept contradicting beliefs.
The point of my posts have never been to convince anyone to accept another's story as fact; if you or anyone else does not believe that someone who says they have experienced a supernatural event is correct, that is perfectly understandable. I could not accept someone else's experience as fact either, since there is no validated proof. Yet I will not discredit someone and say that it cannot be so because it has not been proven. And I think this is where you and I part paths, jiperly. I do not accept it all as fact, yet I do not discredit with lack of scientific validation. If someone describes an event that happened to them, then I accept that it could be possible. Yes, even without scientific validation. Of course you could be absolutely right in your beliefs based upon proven fact, but there is - to me - always possibility of other explanations.
I really, really despise the idea that "We can't explain ghosts right now- but someday we might"- because it assumes theres anything to explain at all.
But that again, is where you and I differ. I will always hold an open mind to that which has not yet been proven. If scientists and explorers of the past functioned by believing that there was nothing to explain, then so many discoveries might not have been made due to lack of belief that something 'just might be out there' (or in there, perhaps, as in the case of atoms and molecules).
Do you believe in Alchemy? Is it possible to work, only we haven't figured out how to turn lead into gold yet? The creed of "openmindedness" as a means for greater knowledge only breeds greater ignorance.
Do I believe in Alchemy? I have not explored it, so cannot say one way or the other. But I will not dismiss it as bunk to those who do have faith in it. That does not mean to say I automatically accept the alchemist's beliefs, but I will not discredit the alchemist for those beliefs. If I do not believe in a certain thing (such as being able to turn lead into gold) I will still respect another's right in believing. I understand your thinking that openmindedness in such matters will only create greater ignorance, especially if you are convinced that certain things will never happen no matter what someone believes, based upon laws of physics; things that have never been proven to be able to take place. Yet I do believe that living a life based solely on proven fact is limiting. There is a lot to be said for having faith. No one has yet turned that lead into gold, or at least we have no proof of it, but who knows what mankind will be able to accomplish 200 years from now? 300 years? I realize that you could certainly cite examples where having faith in something unproven did turn out having negative results, but there are also examples of faith that turned out having results that left scientists/doctors scratching their heads. I think that the best way to live life is to hold a combination...a knowledge of certain things that have been proven as fact (if one jumps from a tree, they will fall 'down', not up); but also having faith in something unseen, unknown, unexplainable, can also have its attributes. I will never dismiss faith from my life because something is unproven. A healthy degree of skepticism is always good to have, but an open mind is also just as healthy...as is determining for onesself where to have faith, and where to decide what is true or not true for them.
What, persay, would be evidence that ghosts do NOT exist? After all, theres plenty of evidence that ghosts do not exist, including but not limited to the fact that one has never been observed in scientific conditions- but you continue to claim it does- so show us how open minded you are- explain what contitions would prove ghosts do not exist?
I do not believe there is plenty of evidence that ghosts do not exist. There is evidence that many claims of ghosts existing were shown to be products of some physical manifestation, yet there are many cases of strange experiences that have not been proven to be false claims.
I have not ever claimed with absolute surety that ghosts, entities, spirits et al. do exist. I have said that I believe things we have not yet been able to prove - are out there. It is my belief only, which I suppose is where my faith comes in, since faith is all about believing in that which cannot be seen or proven. I will never be able to convince you that something 'might' exist based upon what I have witnessed or experienced; nor would I ever expect to. And you will never convince me that something yet unproven does not exist, or is the figment of one's overactive imagination, because it eludes factual evidence. So that is where we part ways. Different points of view, different beliefs, that's all. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/17/2008 4:35:00 AM |
Ouija Boards are easy to prove false- take a group, and have them test it- if they "reach someone from the otherside", a few mintues in, ask them to wear blindfolds- while their blindfolds are on, turn the board upside down. If there is a ghost, it shouldn't matter if its upside down or not- but instead, people will move it to where they THINK the "Yes" "No" and letters are.
Yeah i 100% agree on that. Hell if it was legit then why would you even need to hold the triangle piece at all, why couldn't the spirits move it for you.......... | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/17/2008 6:00:22 AM | | Yup... a lot of people like to outright dismiss things they don't believe in. To me it's a sign of mental weakness to want to have such a carefully defined world, black and white, all true or all lie, a sign of the intellect's tyranny over the imagination, a sign that the inner child has been completely beaten. It is also dangerous for much new, radical and practical, knowledge flows directly from this child willing to look beyond the taboos of its father. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/17/2008 8:54:16 PM | | We are at times unreasonable with spirituality. Too much is expected of something so natural. It is part of us, whether we want to see it or not. Looking far away through the very thing we've been looking for. All we really manage to do is keep it all away from us. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/23/2008 8:58:32 PM | | I believe and have actually seen a spirit. I have known quite a few people who have as well including my grandmother so point proven................... | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/23/2008 10:07:06 PM | People have claimed to have seen big foot, the loch ness monster, UFO's, Chupacabra, mermaids, and dragons.
Saying you saw it doesn't mean it exists. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/24/2008 1:28:41 PM | my grandfather and myself are kinda wierd we se things that have'nt happened yet.
ex:
my grandpa had seen a blue vehicle roll off a dirt road and crash, well about two months later he rolled his blue chevy blazer off a bush road with my grandma uncle mother and aunt. this is just one example
i have only seen one thing so far but i saw a steep cliff that drops down thirty feet or so and someone falling down it . i fell thirty feet while hiking with my grandfather i broke a few ribs in the fall, if i had fallen five feet more to the left i would have fallen on a bunch of rocks and probley would have died.
for some reason we only see these thing while dreaming there is no pattern nor anyway of telling when or if they will happen only for lack of a better word "warnings" | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/24/2008 9:44:43 PM | Ditto on the dreaming thing it's kind of weird because that's happened to me a number of times. Dreamed of finding a ring one night in the dream. The next day I was seeing my inlaws out the door and happened to look down to the floor and I found one of my rings in the carpet below our feet.
To each their own just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there!! | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/25/2008 4:25:44 AM |
Yup... a lot of people like to outright dismiss things they don't believe in.
Well, that makes sense if you think about it at all. Everyone has to make decisions on what they believe based on the evidence presented and if they have never experienced a supernatural phenomenon and it has never been proven valid scientifically, why would they believe? I could see my being one of the nonbelievers had I not experienced the dream thing myself.
Glad to hear others coming forward, too. Not that our evidence would be enough to convince someone to give us a million dollar reward, but it solidifies my belief that we receive messages in our sleep. Don't ask me how or why, though. It just happens | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/27/2008 7:39:16 AM | | I agree as well... the problem lies in 'outright' dismission which leaves very little room for change. Personally I think it IS a problem to have a closed mind. Not that you have to believe everything... but when one does not know (and let's face it we know very little) it is better not to have firm opinion. Lack of evidence is not proof yet people treat it as such in their search for absolutes. Unfortunately these very absolutes that people crave for the illusion of 'mental stability' end up so hopelessly distorting reality that huge potions get literally amputated as dangerous to this false sense of certainty. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/27/2008 10:35:30 AM | >>>Unfortunately these very absolutes that people crave for the illusion of 'mental stability' end up so hopelessly distorting reality that huge potions get literally amputated as dangerous to this false sense of certainty.
It almost seems like you're arguing for my side right there....
As I've said- the universe works under a clear process of laws- some people here would like to disregard these laws to explain ususual dreams(once again people, off topic) while refusing to explain why the laws we've observed are faulty- just that their convictions demand that they are.
There is nothing wrong with looking at other peoples thoughts critically- to challenge peoples assertions- if what they claim can handle critical thinking and still be a valible theory- but there is something wrong with replacing observed laws with gut feelings, not because its an observed pheneomon, but because they feel it must be true. Depending on a persons ego rather than observable evidence will not bring us any progress- rather, it opens the door to any random thought that might slide into a persons mind.
I am not closeminded- but I am convinced that ghosts cannot exist. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/27/2008 11:31:18 AM | How can I prove something that doesn't exist doesn't exist?
Esspecially when people claim this thing can naturally oppose all the laws of nature, can disappear and reappear, and fall in and out of existence. By defination, ghosts are impossible to prove they do not exist- not because they're oh so slippery, but because people designed them to be.
I believe I already pointed that out in this thread(msg 202 of this page resp0nded to it), and got the exact answer I expected to find- the believers make it impossible to disprove because I need to prove the existence of proof that proves that there is no existence of proof. In order to prove the impossible, I must do the impossible.
Ghosts aren't impossible to prove to not exist because they're amazing creatures- they're impossible to prove to not exist because people attribute more and more excuses on why they couldn't be wrong, and thus all of science must be.
Thus, I stick to the time and true technique of pointing out that all of the observed laws of life and phsyics contradict peoples notions. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/27/2008 6:11:30 PM | | Op the universe/spiritual word is beyond anyones comprehension!thus point at such a young age how can you possible confirm that there is no spiritual world?I'm sure you believe in Santa rite?well sorry for your disappointment but for you to try and tell everyone it is not real. Guess what that's a shallow life you have lots to learn. So leave be everyone elses opinion or experiences!because some people do and have experienced the spiritual realm futher that you:). :modhammer: | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/27/2008 6:13:05 PM | | Op the universe/spiritual word is beyond anyones comprehension!thus point at such a young age how can you possible confirm that there is no spiritual world?I'm sure you believe in Santa rite?well sorry for your disappointment but for you to try and tell everyone it is not real. Guess what that's a shallow life you have lots to learn. So leave be everyone elses opinion or experiences!because some people do and have experienced the spiritual realm futher that you:). :modhammer: | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/27/2008 9:13:41 PM | I believe anyone without any spiritual attunement to any sort of religion (no matter what religion it is) will have a very difficult time believing ghosts, or the paranormal, because it goes against science.
People that belong to a religion are (usually) drawn to spirituality because of their faith in their religion. Part of the Christian belief is that God takes a form of "the holy spirit" as part of the holy trinity (father, son, holy spirit). If Christians can believe in the holy spirit, why wouldn't they believe in other ghosts, or spirits? | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/28/2008 6:52:38 AM | | I have ran into many non Christians and Christians that have experienced a form of seeing or hearing spirits of harmless and very nasty spirit!!!! Sure a lot of these who are out on a ghost hunt I do believe are a farce. But stated one again people with first hand experience don't as a rule broad cast it to the world!sure they get so called judged of being on drugs,alcohol,mental illness so on and so forth. Well guess what that is bs!!it does happen and is real!and whom are anyone to judge a person of their experiences? Simple answer there NO ONE!!:modhammer: | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/29/2008 12:52:52 AM |
judged of being on drugs,alcohol,mental illness so on and so forth. Well guess what that is bs!!it does happen and is real!and whom are anyone to judge a person of their experiences? Simple answer there NO ONE!!
It all comes down to credibility. Religious people often don't have much credibility with me because of the way they speak. Some seem to be unable to really talk to you, only recite the bible or talk about stories of Jesus, God, or Heaven. Some can't answer questions without referring you to a verse in the bible that doesn't actually answer anything. They seem crazy and brainwashed in their ways, and I do not wish to talk to, or even listen to anything they have to say.
I would not write off a statement so easily if it was made by a regular person who appears to be normal with no hint of mental instability or extreme christian or other bias. If I myself had some type of encounter, I would not become a crazy nut trying to preach it. I would be confused, and wonder what really happened, and how it can be explained. I would probably write a careful account of it down so that facts don't get twisted in my mind to make it fit some explanation. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/29/2008 9:34:28 AM | Your side, my side, whatever... there are more than two sides.
You say that you are not closed minded... well, at the very least admit that you are closed minded about the 'para'normal.
You are looking for absolutes (absolutely true or absolutely false), I am more comfortable with grey zones and possibilities, but then again I have placed my money where my beliefs are and have seriously investigated many psychic phenomena. (most of which I personally found nothing to support, which doesn't mean that they are false). I probably would be like you (pure arrogant sceptic) had I never bothered to question my reality.
The laws of physics do not need to be disregarded or replaced to integrate the concept of consciousness after death, in fact the law of conservation of energy seems to point in that direction, as does the idea of a multiverse with many dimensions.
Radiowaves would have seemed supernatural to our ancient ancestors. Even simple common things such as electricity are barely understood. So something as strange and wonderful as consciousnes... | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/29/2008 9:42:45 AM |
Even simple common things such as electricity are barely understood.
Don't project your limited understanding onto others who do, in fact, understand simple, common things like electricity. :) | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/29/2008 9:46:41 AM | | Leave it to you Rhino to read a whole post and focus only on one little line of it (and the most inconsequential line too), bravo! That's why it's so rewarding to debate with you. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/29/2008 5:30:37 PM | >>>Your side, my side, whatever... there are more than two sides.
When discussing the existence of something, I don't see how- its either it exists, or it doesn't. Theres a third option in there?
>>>You are looking for absolutes (absolutely true or absolutely false), I am more comfortable with grey zones and possibilities
Exactly- I believe in a Universe that works through laws- the laws of gravity and physics are excellent examples of these- we reached our understanding of these laws not by throwing out guesses and calling anyone who disagrees closeminded- we've arrived by objective observation.
I would rather live in an universe where we understand our surroundings by observing them than to live in that great horror- not where things are unknown, but that things are unknowable. Somewhere, a conclusion must be made by our observations- it is a ridiculous notion that we must halt all conclusions because everything in the universe is not known.
I'm not saying that everything is known- but we certainly have enough information to come to a conclusion- and if new information arrises, of course we can re-evaluate our conclusions- theres nothing wrong with that- but there is something wrong with defying the conclusions we've arrived simply because someone saw something they cannot entirely explain, and thus what we know must be faulty. You're asking that we abandon the scientific method as faulty not because it is faulty, but because it cannot reach the conclusions you would like.
>>>The laws of physics do not need to be disregarded or replaced to integrate the concept of consciousness after death, in fact the law of conservation of energy seems to point in that direction, as does the idea of a multiverse with many dimensions.
But thats not death- thats interacting with a lifeform from another time who never died in their time either.
If we are talking about the living conciousness of a being surviving death, then yes, it does defy all our observations of life- there is no living organism that can not exist and yet still exist- our brains need blood and energy to survive, and wears out over time- these people want us to believe thats unnessary. If I touch a wall, no matter how much I wish my hand to go through it, it will not- if a being exists that can defy that, it defies our previously observed laws- there is no evidence, at all, that a conciousness can survive outside a body, or even that you can alter your surroundings simply by feeling.
All these basic facts are swept aside as unnessary questions- and if used to challenge the idea, we are accused of not being open minded- of not being open to possiblities- that it is somehow a bad thing if I refuse to blindly ignore our own observations because it doesn't give people comfort.
>>>The laws of physics do not need to be disregarded or replaced to integrate the concept of consciousness after death, in fact the law of conservation of energy seems to point in that direction, as does the idea of a multiverse with many dimensions.
And how did we come to understand electricity and radio waves? Through observation, or by accepting all possiblities as equal, and no possiblity as an absolute?
You want to use our understanding of it as an example without comprehending how we came to understand it. | |
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| Do You Believe In Ghosts?
Posted: 12/30/2008 12:00:30 AM | I'll always respect different opinions, but perhaps reality isn't simply what man can observe. I'm sure everyone can agree that pretty much nothing of mankind is perfect. Uncertainty is not a possibility, but a truth. The only true constant is change.
Intuition is a very odd thing. One could say it's a subconscious recognition of our subconscious senses. We also know that intuition isn't the same as reasoning, as intuition tends not to have a base for observation. Still, many times we are correct in these assumptions. A real world result. It's called coincidence, but probabilities being what they are, how is it happening to everyone nearly all the time? I submit that these communications are from at the very least another time or plane, as many times the message connects to reality in relevant ways. | |
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