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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 3:29:54 PM | Lil Brooker:
La Gioconda, I quoted your whole post because it is so bang-on.
Thnks Lil....if I was going to expand the thought on why do abusers are so interested in pleasing you, there is a hidden agenda behind it. The reason is not because they love you so much, but they are interested in winning you over. Once they won you over, you are in their 'paws', they can very easily manipulate you, control you...etc...etc.... they don't mean to abuse you, this is the byproduct of their behaviour towards you. They want to control you, because they cannot relate to 'real' you, they can only relate to a fictitious person they have created in their heads, and you must adhere to this 'unreal person' they have in their mind....they cannot relate to real you, because they would have to get in touch with real them, and they are not able to do that, because 'real them' overwhelms them (Past hurts, abusive behaviour done to them in the past, such as rape as an example, or even abandonment).
The less control they have over you, the violent they become, the abuse escalates...
they become eventually more violent, it escalates to some very serious behaviour...it should never be taken lightly. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 3:36:35 PM | mary freaking,
I don't know where you are getting this information from, and I won't argue with you. There is such thing as domestic violence, and one drama escalates to next. Woman will react and fight back, absolutely.... "Women who kill" by Ann Jones - excellent source of information, if you are interested in the subject more....
This type of dynamics between couples can manifests itself within both heterosexual or homosexual relationships...just to be politically correct. It isn't true that any specific gender is more prone to abusive conduct, it is just a cultural phenomena. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 3:46:19 PM | Jinx,
I've seen a lot of very happy go lucky types end up miserable and just a shell of their former selves by ending up with those types...you see them everywhere, quietly sitting there with their SO, saying and doing nothing except nodding and smiling their fake smiles...silently wishing the ceiling would fall down on their head...
A slow and painful death... the ultimate price for settling. I see it everyday - sad!
After observing what jealousy can do to toxify a relationship, I went from just being me and not saying a word about it, to attaching a disclaimer of sorts to my mates as they come by now...like an advisory..."Caution: Will flirt". Seems to have worked out pretty well, as I haven't had any jealousy issues to speak of since I started "warning" them that this is how I do things.
Valuable point.. well received. As always, thanks for sharing and keeping it real!  | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 4:03:44 PM | I tell people that, on our first date, my now-ex-husband didn't reach across the dinner table and smack me in the face. It built up slowly over time, but in retrospect I should have seen it coming.
He started out very needy, telling me how he couldn't live without me. Then he moved on to "Were you looking at that guy? I'll kill myself if you were looking at that guy!"
But he didn't start hauling me around until after I had our first child. That was just too much of an indignity for him - that his needs should come second to a squalling baby.
I got pregnant a second time (marital rape) and by the time that baby was born, he had started hitting the first one, who was 2 years old. Of course he was still hitting and berating me and using me for sex when he wanted it - all I was trying to do was keep peace in the house.
When my daughter's daycare called Children's Aid to report bruises on her body, CAS told me I had a week to leave the home or they would press child abuse charges against both my husband and me.
I truly believe that intervention saved us, because as a result my now-ex went to counselling, stopped drinking and started trying to be a parent. He still disavows any responsibility for his past behaviour, but things are better now. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 4:25:01 PM | My husband - he is in jail (for drug charges) and I am divorcing him - told me once when we were dating that if I left him he would stalk me. He just out and said it. I was afraid of him and went ahead and married him, like a dope. Now, two years and change later, he's in jail and I have the opportunity to get away from him.
But I also want to say that abuse is NOT ONLY PHYSICAL. This man put me through the ringer and many times made me believe that I was the one in the wrong and that I was going crazy. Come to find out he was diagnosed schizophrenic many years ago (before I ever met him). I am still scared all the time and feel like I need to look over my shoulder even though I KNOW he's serving a year sentence that just started.
Most people don't understand that someone doesn't have to hit you to be abusive. Feeling frightened, belittled, verbally and emotionally assaulted...it's all abuse, too. Just damn hard to prove and you feel crazy if you mention it to anyone else. It still hurts just as much as a beating and takes much longer to heal - if you ever do. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 4:56:42 PM | | The problem with women who abuse is there is not official records because men who are abused by their wives do not report it. They think that because they are men and bigger and stronger that they should just suck it up and take the slap,punch ,kick etc... Any man who would officially report something like this would be looked down upon as a pu$$y by both men and women.We get the information in the same place where people get the information that most rape cases go unreported. If most rape cases are unreported then how can there be statistics on it. They get those statistics from word of mouth . | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 5:07:20 PM | Spellbreaker, I commend you for suggesting one and excellent book;
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans, she certainly is one smart cookie. She knows the hidden corridors of the abuser so well that she blew my mind. One of the poster, taatofu has mentioned the damage done to her by emotional abuse. In fact emotional abuse is part of the same abuse, physical violence is simply an escalation of the abuse, this is when abuser is not able to control, he uses other more, drastic methods.
In response to your post about why do I find abuser will quickly commit, I have posted it in my post number #26. To quickly summerize the idea, they commit to win you over, so they can start controlling you quickly. In other words, they move in next month into your house, so they are right there... and of course emotional dependency, they love it, now they are in even more control over you. What is the most creepy in this, that it happens gradually and very fast at the same time, so you can't even form the perspective, what happened here??? Crazymaking, taatofu has mentioned, too....biggie for them. You constantly doubt yourself, feel inadequate etc. etc. etc. - they make you chase your own tail, - crazymaking.
It can start with something very tiny, like you stating: "What a beautiful day we have today"...the abuser will counter you by saying :"you are wrong, dear...don't you see the gray clouds coming from the south"....whatever...the point is to counter you on as many opportunities as one can get.
Out of curiosity, ~OP~ you have started out with the thread, pointing that jealousy is one of the classical example of abusive relationship, but there tons and tons of more. Why did you decide to study the topic, just curious. Many of us here, studies and live it, I wonder aloud, the purpose of this.
Patricia Evans is the woman, writer - I recommend her, she is plain brilliant, blew my mind, how well she knew the dark corridors and back alleys of the abuser's mind, that's why many women don't even know what is coming and many are stuck in this sh!t for years and years and more.
mary freaking, just read your comment before posting mine...you are going in circles, I have no more comments to add to yours. Amen. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 5:11:19 PM | That is quite true, maryfreakinpoppins, but...well let's not turn this into any sort of 'male vs female' thread, k? (You know how that can easily happen on POF, lol). The OP has a decent thread going, is all I am saying. 
OP, I do agree with you that a) physical abuse rarely does start out as severe violence, but more so, that abuse period doesn't even necessarily begin with physical violence at all. Most people who are being physically abused, have already been suffering through emotional/psychological abuse for quite a while before it progresses to physical abuse. And, by the time it reaches that stage? Well, emotional abuse is insidious...it tends to creep up on people before they even realize it, and as another poster stated, often one questions their own sanity before finally realizing what is going on.
I don't know necessarily if jealousy itself is a big red flag to watch out for, since, as many of the other posters have already said, there is "normal" jealousy and extreme jealousy. So I'll agree that EXTREME/irrational jealousy would be a key indicator most likely. Especially since, most abusers tend to also try to isolate their victims, keep them from socializing in any way, so extreme jealousy might possibly just be another ploy to achieve that goal.
Just tossing this out here, I can't remember offhand which site I got this from, but it applies to both physical and emotional abuse I think. And, it's interesting to note that, no matter exactly how they might go about it? Most abusers do tend to follow a certain pattern, be it blatantly obvious to anyone on the outside, or more subtle than that. Seems to be the same overall cycle, "Tension Building", then "Incident" (in whatever form it might take), "Denial/Reconciliation" and then the "Honeymoon Period", which just leads back into the Tension Building one afterwards.
Abuse — The abuser lashes out with aggressive or violent behavior. The abuse is a power play designed to show the victim "who is boss."
Guilt — After the abusive episode, the abuser feels guilt, but not over what they’ve done to the victim. The guilt is over the possibility of being caught and facing consequences.
Rationalization or excuses — The abuser rationalizes what they’ve done. They may come up with a string of excuses or blame the victim for their own abusive behavior—anything to shift responsibility from themselves.\
"Normal" behavior — The abuser does everything they can to regain control and keep the victim in the relationship. They may act as if nothing has happened, or they may turn on the charm. This peaceful honeymoon phase may give the victim hope that the abuser has really changed this time.
Fantasy and planning — The abuser begins to fantasize about abusing their victim again, spending a lot of time thinking about what their partner has done wrong and how they'll make them pay. Then they make a plan for turning the fantasy of abuse into reality.
Set-up — The abuser sets up the victim and puts their plan in motion, creating a situation where they can justify abusing them.
I honestly don't know if it's *quite* as cut and dried as that, or do people who abuse genuinely "plan" to do this? I'd guess they probably just "rationalize" it away to themselves in such a way that they don't feel they are doing anything wrong.
Anyway, JMO. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 8:18:28 PM | Watch out for other causes.. Bulemia [D1] (now griends)
Sociopath or psychopath traits [D2] (never again and there are plenty of them here, date with caution, you are better off on your own than to even met one of these):
Female Stalkers and Their Victims
J. Reid Meloy, PhD, and Cynthia Boyd, PhD
Demographic, clinical, and forensic data were gathered in an archival study of 82 female stalkers from the United States, Canada, and Australia. Female stalkers were predominantly single, heterosexual, educated individuals in their mid 30s who had pursued their victims for more than a year. Major mental disorder and personality disorder were suggested, especially borderline personality disorder. They usually threatened violence, and if they did threaten, were more likely to be violent. Frequency of interpersonal violence was 25 percent, but there was limited use of weapons, and injuries were minor. Stalking victims were most likely to be slightly older male acquaintances; but if the victim was a prior sexual intimate of the female stalker, her risk of being violent toward him exceeded 50 percent. Unlike male stalkers who often pursue their victims to restore intimacy, these female stalkers often
pursued their victims to establish intimacy. Common emotions and motivations included anger, obsessional thoughts, rage at abandonment, loneliness, dependency, jealousy, and perceived betrayal. Results are interpreted from a clinical and risk management perspective.
J Am Acad Psychiatry Law 31:211–19, 2003
"McEwen (2000) states that genetic factors play a large role in terms of risk for stress-related disorders." .... "He further notes that there is evidence that the encoding of information and controlling of behaviors by the brain itself acts to change brain structure and chemical processes -- that is, the activity of the brain itself alters its own structure. Most promising for survivors of trauma is the evidence he provides that the stress-induced structural changes in the brain are potentially reversible when the contextual factors, including lifestyle behaviors, are such that they are conducive to neuronal repair."
"The empirical research seems fairly consistent in the finding that when abuse is prolonged, severe, involves a family member, and is associated with neglect and lack of social support, that the effects are more damaging "....
"The role of trauma in the etiology of posttraumatic symptoms was incorporated into the DSM-III in 1980 " ....
____________________________________________________________TRAUMATOLOGY
Volume 6, Issue 1, Article 4
As the Pendulum Swings: The Etiology of PTSD,
Complex PTSD, and Revictimization
Anne M. Dietrich, M.A., CT
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC, Canada
Key words: PTSD, DESNOS, Complex PTSD, revictimization, allostatic model | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 8:28:24 PM | sometimes a person has good reason to be jelous, but of course hitting another person is completely out of line. I agree, hitting is never a sign of affection or love. however, it's important to keep in mind that verbal abuse, i.e. name-calling, or attacking one's character are what i would call psychological violence. there is never a place for calling someone a "bi***," or an "a**hole," etc. if i were dating someone and they called me a name like that i'd warn them once, and then dump them without question if they ever did it again.
lar | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 9:17:25 PM | Msg 29:
I'm aghast!!! Does anyone find anything askew? . . . all the words are perfectly spelled and the punctuation close enough.
Grammar good too. . . .
I'm a beinnin' t' wonder . . . What textbook Op is using?
Sorry dear, something missing hea' .
Since I am (relatively) new to the forums, perhaps I am not playing fair (or is that fare? . . . ) | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 9:40:13 PM | message #37:
Argh, matey!!! Did we jus' not pass from the rhelm from 'physical' to 'the all encompassing 'any' abuse? Remember matey; ' It is not so much a set of rules as it is a guideline.' The need at the moment is to discuss the topic. But hey! . . .???
what was that?...seeking attention? Nothing to do? | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 10:03:24 PM | Me persoanly when I am dating a guy and he flirts with another girl in front of me it shows disrepect, I mean it shows me that they would wrather flirt and look at that girl than me...why because he likes her more. If he is socializing laughing having fun great but, fliriting has to do with attracting someone, normally uhhh sexually. So yah if im with a b/f and i start flirting with a guy I expect him to be annoyed because he thinks I am sexually interested in the other guy. Socializing is very differnt than flirting. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/10/2008 10:08:24 PM | hey TS629,
Yes women can be stalkers I am not sure why?? I have had 2 friends and both would stalk the guy..............it was pretty funny but in a weird way. It's like they get on mental tirades and get stuck on being rejected and can't take rejection. Both girls had bad tempers and had big family issues. I myself am not perfect and I can have a bad temper but, stalking a guy I just don't do that, because ....."you can't make someone love you!" | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/11/2008 12:07:12 AM | I was trapped in that hell for awhile. It starts with jealousy, almost FLATTERING jealousy...and ends in absolute hell.
You are not in a relationship. You are merely another possession. It took 12 yrs of running to get away from this ass. I hear now he is in another "relationship" and she is going thru the same thing.
Why do women stay? Sometimes, we can't get away (small town) and sometimes...well...
PFA's, restraining orders...to these guys it is just a piece of paper. They destroy and take from you not only your things but your self respect, your SELF. RUN at the first sign...and that first sign? JEALOUSY | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/11/2008 12:23:09 AM | the first thing an abuser looks for is someone who has low self asteam.my spelling isnt so great some times so please over look.they want to find someone they can controll. because being incontroll is the most important thing to an abuser.they have to feel in controll over that person.then its a brain washing effect that they do. ,and this is done over time. this kind of person will have sever anger problems.but this will not show up till after they have gained some kind of contrll. they will also have the ability to appear normal.and yes sometime it all starts as a farytale.that is so they gain the trust and the devotion of that person.this is why you see so many men and women keep going back to those types of people even when they know how it will be.but they tell themselves that he /she has changed.because that is what he/she says.this part of the brain washing effect.they do this because they have a fear of being alone.they want and need to have someone in thier life. that they are willing to allow someone to dominate them to the point that they loose themselves.noone grows up wanting to be abuseive. but sometimes it monkey see/monkey do.that is to say they do what they learned form home.if you grow up in an abuseive home you are more likely to be abusive,or be abused.sometimes life dictates who we become. that is in no way an excuse,it is a reason why.now we all have choises,and we all have the right to make them.but we dont have the right to inflict those on anyone else.
now can an abusive person change? yes! they can if they so choose to. but they have to see that its nessasary. they have to see that what they doing isnt right.most of the time it takes a life altering action to happen.anyone can change if they want to.but that is the key (if they want to).
abuse of any kind is wrong. virble,phisical,mental.
one other thing love(that is to say someone tells you they love you) doesnt hurt.love isnt abusive. love isnt being oppresive,overbearing,malipulative,jealous. you have these qualities you have issues.,and they need to be delt with by a phsyc doctor. you need to have some sessions on the couch.because you have had some issues in you life you refuse to deal with. get some help. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/11/2008 5:18:45 AM |
Me persoanly when I am dating a guy and he flirts with another girl in front of me it shows disrepect, I mean it shows me that they would wrather flirt and look at that girl than me...why because he likes her more.
It's not necessarily that he likes her more. It's got more to do with him.
Flirting is done to please the ego. It's gauging their worth on the open market. When done in front of a SO, it's an amusement at the expense of the SO's feelings. And people will defend their right to do it and make like it should not bother someone else's feelings.
It's pretty immature behaviour actually. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/11/2008 12:53:34 PM | Many times the first indication of a potential abuser is verbal abuse. This can run the gamut from "jokes" at the other person's expense, name-calling (also "in fun"), tearing down of self-esteem, the list goes on. Isolating a person from their friends and family is a clear cut sign. "Oh, honey, you know I just like to be alone with you....." Very flattering, the first time. When you realize you've been hearing this an awful lot, it's time to sit back and honestly assess the situation for what it is - leading up to physical abuse.
Abusers start out as really charming. Yeah, they send flowers, candy, lavish you with compliments, declare they're jealous if you so much as glance at the check-out guy at the supermarket. BIG RED FLAGS.
I briefly - VERY briefly - dated two males (can't call them men, by any stretch of the imagination) who had potential to be abusive. Once when I was in my early 20's, dated a friend of a friend, mainly because we were both NY Mets fans and my friend thought we'd have something in common. Good thought, had it been a different guy. One night we're all at the local watering hole, having a couple of beers, talking about everything and anything, everyone chiming in with their opinions. The idiot I was with turned to me and said, "Nobody here cares about your opinion or what you have to say. Now, just shut up and sit there." He got quite a piece of my mind. His friend drove me home. I never saw that guy again, even after he had the gall to call me the following week and ask, "Are we going out Friday night?"
The second just a year or so ago. Met this guy online, we chatted on the phone, met for lunch, no sparks. We continued IM'ing now and again. He had said something or other to me online, I didn't quite get it, so I asked him what he meant. He explained it and then typed, "dumb ass." I said nobody calls me names. He quickly typed, "I meant great ass." I said, like he*l you did and blocked him. He e-mailed me a few months later, apologizing profusely for what he had said and promised never to do it again. I replied, thanks for the apology, I appreciate it, but men who start out with verbal abuse like this frequently go onto physical abuse and I'm not getting into that. He said he understood and that was that.
Gotta keep your antenna up! Even after years of a good relationship, abuse can start for a variety of reasons. Stay safe!  | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/11/2008 1:37:36 PM | | ^^^^ agreed. The early warning system with me is when I feel a like someone ran me through with a sword. I can feel it in my energy centers. It's really amazing what your body will tell you sometimes when your mind doesn't register it. I can hear "dumb ass" said and it won't be hurtful (cause I do a little of that when the person and I both know very well that he is intelligent) but when it's said with an intention of hurt, I can literally feel it. I had that happen with someone and found myself doing it back. He said he felt it, like cuts. This was back when I was going through some big transitions. He was a great teacher and my perfect mirror. We didn't have the maturity to transcend our issues at the time, but I hope he came away from our knowing each other with as much as I did. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/12/2008 6:23:43 PM | | Any type or form of jealousy is dysfunctional and show a lack of self respect for the object (target source) they deed to be jealous of. In short it is never right to be jealous of someone else. That doesn’t mean you can’t be concern about the way your partner may be behaving such as being too flirtatious or showing signs of cheating. Then one should talk with the other person and learn what they want and/or need to do concerning how you feel about their actions. The key here is and always will be open and honest communication between both parties. People who display any type of jealousy are in fact suffering from low self-esteem and personal power. A person who become jealous of someone doesn’t feel stable in that relationship. In short the jealousy have nothing to do with the target source (the person whom they are jealous of) but has everything to do with the person that is jealous. All jealousy does in the long run is to ruin a relationship because it is unhealthy emotionally. Jealousy destroys any trust between the two parties. Also jealousy takes away that person personal power and self respect of the target source. Making that person more of a possession i.e. object then a real person. People have died because of jealousy! O.J. Simpson told people that he in fact “loved Nicole Brown Simpson too much”. Did O.J. love Nicole so much that if he couldn’t have her then no one else could? Was Nicole O.J.’s possession and he had the right to do whatever he wanted too? How many people must die before we see “jealousy” as an unstable unhealthy emotional factor? Many might say that O.J. Simpson was free and found not guilty and that would be true but then why was he found liable and found guilty in a civil suit for the wrongful death of Nicole after her family brought him back to court concerning this issue? Why did courts and lawmakers form new laws concerning domestic violence soon after the trial of O.J. Simpson? Now in most state even if the abused doesn’t file charges against the abuser that state can now pick up the case and prosecute the abuser themselves. It may start with jealousy but it ends in abuse and violence. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/12/2008 8:12:19 PM | I break off relationships where the date I am with is jealous, this is my belief...
Look I think there are healthy levels of jealousy. It tells you a few things
1. that you actually have some degree of feelings for a person
2. that possibly you or your partner's behavior isnt what it should be
Ofcourse Id feel a little jealous if somebody came onto my SO and they didnt do anything to stop it. I do find it offensive behavior by my partner to allow it
I certainly wouldnt do it to him.
Would I get jealous over friendships? Nup...not unless there was a clear indication of interest on my SO's friend's behalf.
In almost all the cases of guys approaching me...its been their jealousy that Ive noticed first.
That would be because they've been shy guys...and shy guys generally dont say much about how they feel about a woman.
None of them Ive found either verbally or physically abusive.
Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship
Ive never had a relationship like that.
I did however have a conversation with a young woman the other day who was telling me she gets so angry with her partner that she hits him.
Now she kinda laughed it off cos truthfully she's a tiny little thing that couldnt do much damage and the guy likely would just have to hold her at arms length while she was swinging blindly...but...
...nah...doesnt matter...whats to say she doesnt step over the line one day and do something drastic.
Some people find this behavior normal within a relationship...I dont. | |
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| Warning signs:Physical abuse in a relationship rarely starts out as severe violence.
Posted: 11/14/2008 6:24:40 AM |
Look I think there are healthy levels of jealousy. It tells you a few things
1. that you actually have some degree of feelings for a person
2. that possibly you or your partner's behavior isnt what it should be
Sorry but I must disagree with a concept or ego-ideal that there can be any type of “healthy” jealousy. Jealousy itself is a act of control over the person whom one is jealous of. We all know that any type of control and/or manipulation is abusive and unproductive in relationships. When one feels jealousy that person and not the source target (the person whom you feel jealous of) must look within one’s self and understand why they in fact feel this way. As I stated one should be concern about the actions and/or behavior of a person but should allow open and honest communication between the two. Jealousy is one sided which means only one person feels this emotion and the other one (target source) doesn’t. Jealousy itself stops communication and doesn’t allow both parties to understand the source and cause of this concern that might threaten a healthy open and honest relationship. We all may become jealous from time to time but if you look into one’s self and discover the reason(s) for your jealousy you learn something more about your self which then allows you to turn it around and explain it to the partner in question why you feel this way and then both parties can neither work on it or not. Jealousy it self doesn’t give anyone any options but honest open concern and communication does. | |
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