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Posted: 11/24/2008 11:42:57 PM | If it happened as the 'victim" states, it IS rape. He is meant to help her mental problems, not abuse her by taking advantage of them.
IMO there should be no statute of limitations on any crime. | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/1/2008
Msg: 27 | |
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Posted: 11/25/2008 6:14:50 AM |
The alleged victim states that her body was 'erotically stimulated' during the sexual encounters, so in other words she was bodily reciprocating or replying with the same sexual stimulation that the man was displaying/exerting. From that I take it that she was breathing heavily and her heart was beating rapidly, etc. etc.. But yet she states that she remained 'frozen' and nor did she speak a word during intercourse.
I believe the common description of such an encounter is a 'dead fark'. Scuse the vulgarity of the term but it is a common description used by both genders.
The victim states that during sexual intercourse her mind was screaming 'no, no, no', although all the while she admits to her body screaming 'yes, yes, yes. This is the dilemma as men react to physical cues during sex as men can't know what is going on inside the woman's head and so react to her bodies prompt.
So a man can't know a woman is not into it unless she screams and pushes him off or verbalises it? Even ignoring the doctor/patient inequity for a moment, I would have thought in a healthy sexual interaction one partner would notice something amiss if the other party was perhaps exhibiting behaviours like laying prone, and gazing at a fixed point in such a way that it seemed they were trying to disassociate themself from the events, and perhaps...stop... and ask? Would it be appropriate to also fail to identify a problem if the partner... cried...curled into a fetal position? How many clues are needed? Not every rape victim fights back.
I just can't imagine anyone ignoring a lifeless sort of response in a partner and continuing on their merry way, no matter the state of physical play. There is no obligation to continue if the fark is dead , and if he enjoyed that sort of response from his partners then he probably needed a psychiatrist himself.  Breathing speeds up and the heart beats more rapidly from things other than sexual excitement... fear, for example... and even just plain old physical activity, whether willing or not. So I don't relate to this particular interpretation of events.
Over the course of 4 years she returned to his rooms knowing full well that sex was to be the outcome, but still no objection just a feeling of erotic stimulation.
A whole different kettle of fish. I can appreciate that she was in a vulnerable mental/emotional state, but 4 years is a long time to put yourself in a situation like this repeatedly. It's not like she was "stuck", like a child being molested at home over years is. She was an adult woman, with choices, and he was her psychiatrist not her superior in any sort of position of power over her. She was seeking help with the grief from divorce and a death in the family... she was not locked into an institution where her future release depended on this man...nor suffering from a permanent psychological disorder. (unless I've missed something there). Yes she was vulnerable, and yes he betrayed her trust as part of the doctor/patient relationship which is acknowledged in the OP ... but he wasn't the only psychiatrist she could have accessed surely? Vulnerability aside, she still had her faculties.
She's now decided that 27 years after she last saw him and 31 years after the first alleged rape, to press charges against the psychiatrist who is now 80 years old and has senile dementia.
Whatever the stature of limitations says, I personally don't think that's reasonable.
For one, because 27 years have passed during which time she could have raised the issue with authorities, and chose not to. Had she somehow not been in a position to take action for the last 27 years...unable to find the guy, or restricted in some tangible way, then I'd see some reasoning there. But just not saying anything at all, and then suddenly taking action after all that time, I don't get. If she decided to put it behind her, then that's a choice she made, and time has moved on. It seems destructive to all concerned to now do what she is doing.
And secondly, because the accused now has senile dementia it is now a totally one-sided case before court. Smacks of thoughts of 'easy pickings' really.
Anyway...if the guy has dementia then he is not going to experience any punishment doled out, nor feel remorse even if he might have (pre-dementia) agreed with her that he shouldn't have done what he did. If it's closure she seeks, I wonder if this will bring it for her? I doubt it. | |
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Posted: 11/25/2008 6:41:22 AM | Interesting topic this one, firstly, if he is as sick as that and is deemed by the court to be incapable of assisting in his own defense there will be no trial.........period.....to be tried for any crime you must have the mental capacity to assist in your own defense...this is enshrined in law...the wording varies between here and the US but the outcome is the same......
It is not so hard to look at why she might not have come forward before and why she continued to see this man even when she knew what the result would be.....if it was so clear cut then why do some people choose to remain with an abusive partner....even though they are not pysichally restrained from leaving, although I accept that in some cases that might not be the case.....
Given the mans profession, one would think that his ability to manipulate her would have been quite high. Time should not be an issue in any case like this...sjhould we then put time limits upon a child coming forward and reporting abuse??....how many have come forward years later...what about those abused by members of various churches are they to be denied justice....to do so in my view is to abuse them all over again.....not quite sio clear cut as all that I dont think.....and who knows why the woman took this long to come forward....maybe irt took this long for her to get up the courage to do so, I would have thought that this woman needs care and support not condemnation | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/1/2008
Msg: 29 | |
| Rape
Posted: 11/25/2008 7:26:03 AM | Edit to my above post:
stature of limitations
Oops. Please excuse the typo...didn't mean to bring height into it.  | |
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Posted: 11/25/2008 3:59:52 PM |
What does the POF Jury think about the case? Wonder if it will be different to the Justice’s ruling?
looks like the tuff pof jury agrees it was rape but are all hung on the 4yrs bit ....
theres only 1 person that can answer that!
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staying on topic but new case senario
A) a person is pack raped in there teens
B) had never heard of statute of limitations until there mid 20s & just assumed that as they hadn't reported it immediately it was 2 late re-no physical evidence remains
C) they know the names of the predators & of other victums
D) can pinpoint the rape as a major turning point in there lives that resulted in leaving school early & loss of potential income
E) the're pretty sure that closure will never happen it hasnt in 25yrs having them charged wont make any personal consolidation but...
E) the attackers will be made to face what they did to her & possably others
F) somebody mentioned re original case she is fully aware theres a monetory payout if there convicted which may turn her life around
ok now for the question
do you think its time she reported it? | |
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Posted: 11/26/2008 12:24:39 AM | I guess Im the opposite of everyone here, maybe its the enviroment I work in, but I think it is quite normal for someone who is obviously in need of pshyciatiric care, who is then victimised by their 'carer', to not recognise the need to get safe. I dont think that is hard to understand , well not to me. Four years is not long at all in the scheme of a life time.
I wonder how many rape victims some people have ever had the chance to talk to? Its not a pleasent experience and they are all very very different, yet so strikingly similar. There are many normals, and many differences.
I guess if you can think about it in terms of domestic violence.. same cycle in essence
As I said earlier I am trying hard not to actually have an opinion of this case as such, IMHO a jury has limited choices of decisions. And I prefer to think outside of the box. | |
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Posted: 11/26/2008 2:12:33 AM | Message 30:- Yes, I think this should be reported.
I don't know if you can expect closure or even compensation, but by putting this crime on the public record, you tell people that they can't get away with this.
If the guys who did this 25 years ago now have families and kids themselves, then it should be made public. At least to those families.
It might stop their kids from repeating this treatment (or maybe their grandkids.)
If they are now a fine upstanding member of the community, and this was the only time they stuffed up in their life, they will get over it.
If they are now a fine upstanding member of the community, and this is the tip of the iceberg because they have a whole history of teating people this way, Then tell someone and let people know what this person is really like.
Its a tough call. what do other people think???? | |
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Posted: 11/26/2008 5:09:28 AM | Hmmmmm.
I will start by saying, I did not read every post. My apologies.
My personal experience..................... this is evil & victims sometime don't feel confident enough to put up their hand.
Everyone has an opinion though. Your "friends" who it never happened to, & their Mum's, know exactly how you should have behaved.
I hope this isn't off track. I was 27y/o, just out of a 4year live in relationship. The freak, was my bestfriend, from the age of 13years old , cousin. I was scared no one would believe me. He was someone I'd known for ten years, as almost, family.
I always said, before hand, "If I was ever raped, I'd yell, scream, kick & punch!" I froze. I can only compare it to, those time you think somone is in your house. You almost stop breathing!
The guilt that you didn't "yell, scream, kick & punch" is enough to make you believe, somehow, it's your fault! It never is!!!
11y/s later..... I'm good. I wish I pressed charges now, as I have the confidence to do it. At the time, It totally screwed me up!. One day, I was sent home from work. I lived with my brother. Work called him to be at home. I told him " I just feel so worthless." He told me " You are not worthless, your my sister. That saved me.
To press charges is difficult. The police have to be diplomatic, which the victim, judges as being insensitive. They're not. They're just doing their job.
The courts stink!! If you slept with one million people who cares. If you say no, it's no!!! In recent cases, " Well she was half asleep. It's really not rape, even though he broke into her house & had sex with her. " This was local for me. He went back to being a local chef!!! WTF!!!
I'm lucky enough to have great men in my life. Family & friends are amazing!! I know men are great! Lucky for me!!!
I will say, my male friends were much more understanding than my female friends. That , hurt like hell!! My male friends were ready to commit murder. My female friends asked " are sure you said NO?" "If it REALLY DID happen you should press charges."
On that note, those girls, after 20yrs of friendship, aren't my friends now! | |
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Posted: 11/26/2008 5:34:06 AM | Wow Milly, thanks for sharing, had a tear in my eye reading your post.
I hope this isn't off track.
Not off the track at all, I think the it's the true life experiences that give the issue some real perspective. | |
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Posted: 11/26/2008 2:31:16 PM | what becomes of a rape victum ....
at 15 i knew exactly who i was & what i wanted to do with my life
at 16 was pack r.p.d by 4 guys i knew on the way home from school it effects fems differently for me i wound up hitting a bottle lost all self esteem & respect for myself eventually ended up in a bytch fight with another gurl who heard about it & wouldnt shut her mouth got expelled (the entire school knew or at least it felt like that).......
i met my 1st husband when i was 16 the week befor i found out i was pregnant with my 1st son he hit me ....
at 17 my mum gave me an alter-matum to marry ex1 or abort my son i chose to marry ex1 ....but the bashings got worse the day i left him i was pregnant with 2nd son & recall being curled up in a ball on the floor protecting my stomach & coughing up blood...ex1 never gave up the grog....
then i met 2nd ex who happens to be 1st exes brother...he saw what was going on actually tried to get us back together at 1 point...ex2 is an habitual criminal why i hadnt met him befor...
i went threw a series of dramas with him including waiting 3x 3yr jail terms inbetween , going on the run with him ,spending a couple of times in refugees cos he got locked up & i got left stranded ,drugs stray fems & hearing he had r.p.d young gurls on a couple of occassions...
i left 2nd ex after he let off a sawn off pump action shot gun in the direction of my 2 eldest sons ,all i could think to do at the time was pick up my daughter a todler at the time & stand in frount of him praying he loved her enough not to pull the trigger again...
as it turned out a car pulled up & we left i wiill never know if he might have pulled that trigger!
actually that was the end of our marriage but i stuck around until i felt my sons were old enough to stand up to him or fend for themselves
(incase i went to jail for what i was preparing for didnt want there father getting hold of them either!)
i fell pregnant with 4th child at a time when he had my eldest son 13 i think by the throat for sticking up for me & i turned him in for an armed robbery he didnt know i knew about ive basically been single sinse then!
& not only have i never had any finacial help from any of the fathers but the tight a.sss pricks owe me engagement rings!...:)
my youngest sons father ,went back to hes ex ,wanted to meet my son behind her back so i told him to shove it,y so many kids...i cant use contraceptives & they all knew that
2nd ex thought he was sterile guys (low sperm count dont = sterile) incase yas didnt know & now im here im still breathing i dont hate men my kids have turned out better than i ever expected so somewhere along the line i got that right!
& yeh im bidding my time so the man i spend real good times with is the right 1 this time
however i can pinpoint the time in my life that "i lost normal"
the 4 rapist that grabbed me by my arms & legs & litterally lifted me over a fense into bush ...i cant help thinking probably have good lives & possably daughters in there teens now ....i know for a fact i wasnt the only1
so i ask again is it time they were charged or should i just accept the fact its never going to heel the wounds?
the only consolidation would be a payout for me ...though i dont know how many more there were i know of 2 of them ...purhaps they might get satisfaction ...i realy just dont know
i see lots of y0u asking why the other lady left it 20+yrs well if you read what i wrote you might understand i had my hands full with enough court cases & my kids have always come before me
as with what milly said you do go threw a series of guilt ,self questioning & ridicule & its taken me a very long time to accept there was nothing i could do to change things
my mothers words ringing threw my head if i were ever raped she wouldnt believe me ..as i was a very strong person physically & mentally back then ...when she finnally found out @ 1st she called me a liar until ex1 told her it was 4 not 1 | |
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Posted: 11/26/2008 3:08:54 PM | The moment you 'feel' violated by this crime in particular , your essence the self you know becomes numb, it is a coping mechanism, a basic survival instinct, sometimes this dark veil shields you and your feelings for months, years and decades. And impacts for years on your life decisions and enviroment. You are very brave for speaking about it. I admire you.
I hope anyone who has been a victim of these crimes, and reads some of the less than informed posts, or somehow reads that the questions of why it took so long, equate to the believability of what happened understand that is just ill informed opinion or sometimes just simple curiosity. DO not let that stand between you and help.
For those who have an unreported sexual offences. The QPS and I am fairly confident it is nationwide have what is called a Unreported Sexual Offence register, It is a 4-5 page form with detailed questions to be placed on a data base, it is NOT evidentiary, it can not be used in a court of law. BUT it aides the police in looking for similar cases, it can pinpoint a pattern, a serial rapist, etc. EVERY rape is unique, the elements are all different.
The form is extremely detailed and can be quite confronting to fill out, but you can do it in the privacy of your own home, with a friend, or what ever, and it is annonymous if you wish it to be.
Some women( and yes men) have found this to be a good medium and cathartic, it means the police know, take you seriously, you do not need to go to court and sometimes it helps alliviate the guilt you can feel after ward for not going forward.
People who say you 'should" report it , or you 'have' to report it. Well no .. no you dont. It is your choice. It may be for someone women( and men) one of the few things in the crime they feel they have control over.
Rape is simply about power and control. It is not about sex , sex is just a vehicle to wield the power and control. | |
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Posted: 11/27/2008 12:54:27 AM | I hope this isn't off track. I was 27y/o, just out of a 4year live in relationship. The freak, was my bestfriend, from the age of 13years old , cousin. I was scared no one would believe me. He was someone I'd known for ten years, as almost, family.
I always said, before hand, "If I was ever raped, I'd yell, scream, kick & punch!" I froze. I can only compare it to, those time you think somone is in your house. You almost stop breathing!
I don't know you missmilly1970, but like most of us here, I am devastated for you. The rape is one thing (not to relegate it as of lesser importance) but the betrayal of trust from a supposed 'family friend' compounds this matter to much greater heights. The sad thing is statistically, a rape is often committed by those who are known to the victim....I really do not have anything of comfort to say even though its been many years past other than I share the indignation and frustration that the co-posters (and yourself) feel. I am truly, truly sorry to know this had happened to you.
I was going to say something silly/ridiculous/absurd like I normally do with my posts, but not today missmilly1970. I hope that you have all the love and support of your family and friends (such as your brother that you mentioned here), and your somewhat extended family here on PoF. I'll be there for you right behind JulianX.
at 15 i knew exactly who i was & what i wanted to do with my life
at 16 was pack r.p.d by 4 guys i knew on the way home from school it effects fems differently for me i wound up hitting a bottle lost all self esteem & respect for myself eventually ended up in a bytch fight with another gurl who heard about it & wouldnt shut her mouth got expelled (the entire school knew or at least it felt like that).......
i met my 1st husband when i was 16 the week befor i found out i was pregnant with my 1st son he hit me ....
1nsatiable, again, I couldn't read further. I am sorry I found it difficult to read the whole thread having only read the last page, your situation, like missmilly1970's is very very upsetting to me. I have 3 sisters and I wouldn't have a clue how I'd be if this ever happened to any one of them. The fact that this happened to you, one that I regularly read about on this forum is very very upsetting. Like missmilly1970, I cannot tell you enough how devastating this is.....I am very very sorry this happened. | |
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Posted: 11/27/2008 3:34:48 AM | I have two points to make...
1/ He had a responsibility to ensure her welfare at all times.
wether she enjoyed it or not , a doctor has no right to any sexual advances to a patient!
2/ How on earth is she going to prove it beyond doubt?? | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/1/2008
Msg: 39 | |
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Posted: 11/27/2008 5:17:02 PM | I echo the sentiments expressed by Julianx and PedroSanchez in relation to posts by Miss Milly and Insatiable. Very very saddened to hear that you have both been the victim of such a terrible crime during your lifetimes. I admire the courage of you both in sharing your stories. 
In relation to the woman in the case from the OP...I noticed several comments have been made about lack of empathy or ignorance on the part of those who are saying that 4 years is a long time for an adult woman to allow a situation of unwanted sexual interaction to continue. So it was interesting to note that in post #8 Insatiable, who is herself a victim of rape, and therefore far from ignorant or lacking in empathy about the matter, says...
though she did return for more where i would question ligitimacy of her case | |
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Posted: 11/27/2008 6:41:23 PM |
though she did return for more where i would question ligitimacy of her case [/qoute]
I would of thought that even if a patient/client visited her psychiatrist and was begging for a sexual encounter, that it is beyond the bounds of the Doctor/Client relationship.
Any good doctor would of recognised the dilemma they were facing from the onset and referred there client on to another colleague. | |
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Posted: 11/28/2008 4:48:19 PM | | I think it is somewhat over the top when a female complains of rape years after the aledged encounter. If you are fare dinkum about a rape happening you think it would come sooner rather than later. Where's the evidence . I think females keep it stored up until it suits them, to accuse someone and have a chance of earning some cash. Rape is over rated when it is a natural act. When you are about to blow , and a female changes her mind and says i don't want any more, and you continue it can be said to be rape. It,s getting to be a legal document that is required, sign here please. | |
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Posted: 11/28/2008 5:36:26 PM | Without looking, I can tell the previous poster is a man. It's thinking like that why girls and women don't always report the assault.
Years after, it's not just the women who find the power to report a rape. The same can be said of those little choir boys and children abused whilst under care
From this board alone, sadly I see 2 lovely ladies who have been subjected to this torment. And who'd have thought eh? You just never know who you're standing beside. If the stats are anything like child sex abuse then unreported rape is more prevalent than you know.
I'm betting, the previous poster has relatives who have kept their mouths shut because of the ridiculous, uncaring intolerance and shame they know they'll get from those close to them. | |
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Posted: 11/28/2008 5:54:22 PM | Rape is over rated when it is a natural act.
Please elaborate on how or when rape might be considered a natural act.
When you are about to blow , and a female changes her mind and says i don't want any more, and you continue it can be said to be rape.
Yep . . looks like the definition of rape to me. Just a clue here . . it's because you continued.
What part of this is confusing?
Is it something to do with it your definition of a natural act?
(shakes head . .)
EDIT: As others have already said, kudos to MissMilly and 1NSATIABLE for their bravery in sharing. More power to you gals. | |
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Posted: 11/28/2008 6:41:02 PM | I will agree with 4rum and most of the other posts here, as for 707707 I really think he is over the top, he may have two pecker!!!! how could any one get that silly only playing with one.
Rape does happen and I am sorry for all the people that it happens to, that includes female and male that have been raped, it sure does happen to boys and most of the time it is from family memebers; Fact
They never forget about it and it is always at the back of their heads : Fact
Yes it did happen to me: Fact
Did I tell any one NO: Fact
Do any of my friends know about it. NO: Fact
the reason I never said any thing was because the thoughs that go through your head at the time, will people believe me, it was my fault, will they attack me, now I could go on with the things that went through my head, then you feel ashamed from what has happend and spend more time alone trying to find out what you did wrong to deserve what has happend, then you become an ousider to most of your close friends and family.
Well most people here that read this post will be only a few people that know what happend to me.
So to cap it off RAPE is RAPE and when some one say no it means NO!!!
As for the so called doctor the same thing rape is rape
TC | |
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Posted: 11/28/2008 6:42:13 PM |
Years after, it's not just the women who find the power to report a rape. The same can be said of those little choir boys and children abused whilst under care
This is very true...(although my stint as choir boy was so very short-lived...just can't hold a tune ).
I have a bit of experience dealing into the shame of child abuse ( a couple of choir boys and some in fact) from a work capacity. The confidentiality agreement as you can imagine is fairly exhaustive.
As a generalised comment though, I'd just add the obvious in that it takes far beyond the norm to admit to the abuse due to the stigma associated with fraudulent claims and this idea that the victim "must've been wanting/enjoying the experience". Add to the mix grown men and the associated homosexual nature of these child molestations. Most of us would not have clue as to what these people go through on a daily basis, let alone the additional burden of rehashing every bit of detail in a legal environment, that is supposed to provide them some semblance of justice and closure.
Our cynicism is a hugely contributing factor to the shame and the silence. A bit of caution here folks, its peoples lives that we're dealing/discussing here. | |
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Posted: 11/28/2008 7:02:18 PM | I too read mess 43 but chose not to respond because I figured that it was an attention seeking post....surely there are no longer people who think this way......if the post is genuine then I feel as sorry for him .......surely to believe as this person does means they dont live in the real world.....somewhat removed from reality....to be so cut off from society...pfff nah he just a wanker that should be ingnored for the level of stupidity
This is a very emotive issue, everyone will have their own theory of why someone might wait 4 years.....at the end thou who are we to judge???????have we walked a mile in her shoes....
To those who shared their personal experience....what extrodinary people you are....to have chosen to share such an experience....wow I stand in awe | |
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Posted: 11/29/2008 8:58:06 PM | There is to much circumstantial evidence in a supposed rape that happened years ago. Just like fishermen the fish grows bigger in the mind. I said sex is a natural act not rape....
What is the damming part about rape. Were you fisically hurt. Was your virginity stolen.
I just can not see the cense in coming up with a rape allegation after such a time had passed.
Does finance come into it. What is the motivation. Rape has gone on since the beginning of time. The English had large numbers of people classed as idiots or imbisiles ,a product of in breeding in days gone by, with brothers getting up sisters etc , Was that rape. | |
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Posted: 11/30/2008 2:54:19 PM | There is to much circumstantial evidence in a supposed rape that happened years ago. Just like fishermen the fish grows bigger in the mind. I said sex is a natural act not rape....
What is the damming part about rape. Were you fisically hurt. Was your virginity stolen.
I just can not see the cense in coming up with a rape allegation after such a time had passed.
Does finance come into it. What is the motivation. Rape has gone on since the beginning of time. The English had large numbers of people classed as idiots or imbisiles ,a product of in breeding in days gone by, with brothers getting up sisters etc , Was that rape.
so does this mean that if I was feeling a little randy after a night on the town, but having no luck with the ladies, that I could just drag one of into the bushes belting her if she restrains and gagging her if she is noisy.... as I dont want our interment time interupted
and then have my way with her because its a "natural act."
go flash your arse around some inmates and see if they do the honour of a "natural act"
as thats nothing "NEW" either.
Thankfully I have never being abused physicaly, mentaly or sexualy. But I feel for those that have as I have seen the effects from enough people male and female that have to know it is not "a natural act" and it is the act of a selfish, self centered person.
I understand that there occasions were it is far fetched like a a couple hooking up in a bar etc geting to a place of intermacy blah blah blah then one of them thinks this is wrong and dosen't want the embarrasment of the choice they made, so they call it rape .
It is then that they become the preditor not the victim. and they should be punished equaly.
This should apply to perants that accuse there ex's of molistering there children so as they dont have to see them. throw the book at these "things" I say.
Those that do this ruin it for those that realy do need help and are victoms. | |
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Posted: 12/1/2008 4:07:19 AM | Jules,
I know Men are "great" because i have you in my life!!
I say "Men" because only real men know women!!
You're a great Dad to your daughter , because you're a man who "loves women."
There is a big difference between a guy who "likes women" & a " guy who loves women." | |
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Posted: 12/1/2008 3:02:57 PM | 707707, well you are entitled to your opinion about rape. I guess it will never effect you, victims tend to rely on empathatic ears and hearts to tell their horrors too, so ou have buffered your senses quite nicely .. I guess for you the holocaust never happened iether.
So I guess a woman who is raped by her husband, beaten by her husband and remains married for years perhaps decades, has no legitamate claim to it happening?
Some people are simply ill informed, being ill informed is not a crime, or a testament of character, judging others harshly is a character flaw, a testamony in itself.
For it to go to trail the DPP must gather evidence in order to gain a conviction.
It went to jury. a jury of peers much like the mixed bag of tricks here, it still got a conviction.
Have you ever been asked the detailed questions a police officer asks? They are not politically correct. They are extremely blunt, personal, direct and unpleasent to say the very very least. It would take a foolhardy man or woman to go that far and not be sussed by the police who take these statements daily. I am specifically talking about police who work in sexual crimes, and dv. The detectives are very very well trained in this area.
Thankfully there are many lovely men in this world , who like the good Daddy up here ^^who speak with wisdom. | |
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