|
|
|
|
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 11:40:53 AM |
Refusing sex without cause? What is that? If either person refuses sex it's because they don't want it and neither one should feel "forced" to subject their bodies if their spirits aren't into it as well. This sense of obligation that men think women should have is just bogus and it is what turns so many of us off!
This is another one of those slippery slopes. Yes, a person should be able to just say no without having to explain or justify themselves. If they don't wanna, they don't gotta.
But, it is possible for sex - or, rather, the withholding of sex, affection, intimacy, etc. - to be used as a weapon to coerce the other person into behaving in a way which makes them uncomfortable. A common term for this is "Emotional Blackmail." It's like saying, "Do what I want, or there will be negative consequences such as me shutting you out until you comply." This is an extremely common form of domestic abuse.
It's used not only in sexually intimate relationships, but in parent/child relationships and friendships. When one person purposefully exploits another's needs in order to manipulate them into doing something against their will, then it's abuse.
This is a weapon that many women use and it's wrong. However, just because a woman doesn't want to have sex, this does not mean she is being abusive and manipulative, no matter what Melo or Starre would have you believe. Unless it is a pattern of behavior that has been established specifically to use or manipulate another person, it's not abuse, just as seduction is not rape. | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 11:48:51 AM |
The point is Melo... Your sexual needs are YOURS! They don't belong to your partner!
This one sentence speaks volumes.
Melo, you don't want a woman to control your sexual needs, but you expect her to be responsible for fulfilling them. You can't have it both says. If she has to take responsibility, then you also give her control. Make a choice. One or the other, but you can't have both. | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 12:00:40 PM | Soft at Heart, the thing about forums is that you can't always see the effect the discussions and arguments are having. Maybe no one who has posted will have their viewpoints changed--but maybe they will. Maybe those who read without posting will learn something and garner food for thought.
Sensitive issues, to my way of thinking, are the ones we MOST need to talk about.
Response to:
Everybody, please stop!
All that's happened since OP's question has lead to nothing but arguments. Have they got anywhere? No.
I agree with the early posters that the OP has brought up a sensitive issue which is better kept out of POF Forums.
--Ms. Flis | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 12:06:45 PM | | MELOFELO..ur an ass. To say that if "NO" is said in your relationship then it is the end, show that your are a SELFISH human being..unbelievable! | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 6:38:39 PM |
However, a woman's right to control her sexuality does not entitle her to control mine. So, if an agreement is reached, in terms of giving her fidelity,based on us each representing that we will respond to each other's sexual needs, and then, at some point, she decides not to meet my sexual needs, she is not entitled to my fidelity. That was, after all, the "deal", the agreement we had.
Curious...before you depart, I want to know the meat of the "agreement" that you have with these women? Can you give me word for word the "verbal conversation" or the "paperwork" that these women agree to regarding the sexuality in your relationships? I just find it hard to believe that you have sexual agreements with the parade of women that wander through your life.
Peculiar. | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 6:45:14 PM | | Rape can happen in any type of relationship when women say no. If the other party doesn't honor your wish it's then a rape case.There is no in between it's cut and dry!! | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 6:48:30 PM | Yes, rape is possible in a relationship. Any sex, that is forced on you, against your will, which you do not want, is rape. Husbands, boyfriends, are very capable of raping a wife, girlfriend. It happens all the time. Especially in countries where women have less rights then men, and sex is "expected" no matter how the woman feels about it.
Rape is common in abusive relationships.
This may be a sensitive subject, but it does need to brought up, because women and girls are being raped everywhere, all the time, and it's important that we all talk about this issue.
I'm just sorry to see that this type of topic, can make a thread go downhill so quickly, but it just goes to show you how much anger is still out there about it. Because rape, is such a terrible, terrible thing to do to a woman. | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 8:09:03 PM | Nola.....tried to email you,but i dont have a pic....
So sorry to hear what you've been through......and,agree that it DOES need to be spoken about.
Get it all out in the open,i say....
And,there have been cases ive read about where the man has been raped & is certainly no laughing matter --- Just as bad. | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 9:56:39 PM |
But, it is possible for sex - or, rather, the withholding of sex, affection, intimacy, etc. - to be used as a weapon to coerce the other person into behaving in a way which makes them uncomfortable. A common term for this is "Emotional Blackmail." It's like saying, "Do what I want, or there will be negative consequences such as me shutting you out until you comply." This is an extremely common form of domestic abuse.
It's used not only in sexually intimate relationships, but in parent/child relationships and friendships. When one person purposefully exploits another's needs in order to manipulate them into doing something against their will, then it's abuse.
This is a weapon that many women use and it's wrong. However, just because a woman doesn't want to have sex, this does not mean she is being abusive and manipulative, no matter what Melo or Starre would have you believe
Actually, Nola, your more recent posts have come back to a point at which they seem reasonable to me, and feel able to comment.
What I was reactive to, earlier, is the concept of "dismissing" a partner, based on a whim. I simply don't tell anyone close to me, in a way, that would dismiss that they matter to me, their wants and needs are valid and acknowledged. Even with established customers, who don't want to do something I've proposed, it's rare to hear "no" directly. It's usually said in a way that "lets the other guy save face and preserve dignity".
My comment in saying "if a woman said "no", I'd leave"....it wasn't to mean that she has to have "sex on demand", but in response to being told "no", as if all that matters in a relationship, is whether she's "in the mood", or that I have to "earn" it.
In the real world, if a partner tells me she's not feeling well, or I know she's dealing with emotional issues, or she's tired....the issue of sex isn't going to come up. For me, at least, sex isn't exciting, unless she's "into" it.
However, the other part of that, as it pertains to relationships is that what matters to me first, without which nothing else would matter, is that we have a good, frequent, and intense sexual connection. If that fades, or isn't there, then I wouldn't continue on in the relationship, and that's something that I articulate early on, and generally, I have only gotten involved with women who see the importance of sex in a relationship the same way.
I don't think it's "ok" to force someone to have sex against her will. I think that it's rape, regardless of the nature of the relationship, and it's a crime. On the other hand, it seems that some female posters have tried to define it as "rape", if a man doesn't allow her to use sex as a means of "control", and makes it clear that if the sex life in a relationship is unsatisfactory that he'll leve, as some form of "rape".
It's that misconstruction of the word that pushes my buttons, partially because I know the reality of rape, as a victim, and I have friends, who have been raped. To me, it's ludicrous to equate a man leaving a relationship, if the sex isn't good, with rape.
The fundamental point to much of my posts is, that the "deal" is that two people exchange their freedom to have other sex partners, for an assurance that sex will usually be available. If it turns out that's not the case, then the other, to me, is no longer entitled to fidelity or exclusivity. Thus the comment that a woman's choice to control her sexuality does not control mine. If she won't, then she has no basis to complain, if I look elsewhere. | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 10:14:28 PM |
Coercion ?Coercion is the use of emotional manipulation to persuade someone to something they may not want to do – like being sexual or performing certain sexual acts.
The fact that the following connection has been attempted, namely that coercion = persuasion = rape, is an indication of irrationality and stupidity.
If persuasion is coercion, or coercion is persuasion, and one leaves it at that and doesn’t make further distinctions, then some nasty consequences follow. I will list few:
Every politician should be in jail - for clearly politics heavily depends on persuading people to your side. If persuasion is coercion, and coercion is rape, and rape is a crime, then persuasion is a crime. By that reasoning, which I find ridiculous, Obama should be behind bars, and not the president of the United States.
Every advertisement is an attempt at persuasion – and therefore every company that has ever advertised has committed a crime.
By the same reasoning every sales person and telemarketer should be in jail.
Every person that ever lied on their resume in order to persuade an employer to hire them, committed rape – just following the reasoning to its extremes to show its stupidity.
The fact is that persuasion is not coercion. And I will try to show that. For one, persuasion can occur by means other than coercion. Persuasion can occur via a good argument or good will. Coercion is only one of the many ways of persuading someone. It follows that “persuasion is not coercion”. The two may overlap in certain instances, but the two are not one and the same – persuasion covers a larger area than coercion. In other words, coercion is a specific type of persuasion – but not the only type.
Rape is not coercion. Just because some uses coercion to achieve rape, it doesn’t mean that every instance of coercion is rape. If people can’t make that distinction – it’s hopeless.
Just because some uses a knife to achieve a kill, it doesn’t mean that every knife is used for killing. Claiming that “knife = killing” is insane. Just because someone uses drugs as ways to rape someone, doesn’t mean “drugs = rape”.
And there is one case no one has yet mentioned which clearly shows the stupidity in the claim that coercion is rape: What if a friend persuaded you to have sex with someone else and you actually did it? Will you claim that your friend – the one that persuaded you – raped you?
I hope that reasonable people can see that, “persuasion is not coercion and coercion is not rape”. The means to an end are not necessarily the same as the end.
Those who referred to the law to prove their point can be proven wrong by referring them back to the law - not every state has the same law regarding rape. Not every country has the same laws for rape. The law isn’t consistent and therefore incapable of serving as the authority in all circumstances. If the law alone was sufficient, there will be no need for judges or juries.
What’s more, people who quote the law as a proof should also provide an argument whose conclusion is the law. Just because it’s the law, it doesn’t mean it’s morally right – slavery was a law.
There is one more connection that has to be severed, namely that emotional manipulation to persuade someone is coercion. It might very well be the case that in some circumstances, emotional manipulation is coercion. But that’s not always the case. Here are few counter examples:
Have you ever appealed to a friend’s emotions in order to either make them leave a bad relationship or have them do something – like go shopping or go to the movies – perhaps they had a bad day and didn’t want to go but you convinced them? If so, that’s emotional manipulation, but is not seen as such because it was in “good faith” – with good intensions.
Most parents for example, often use emotional manipulation – especially fear - to make their children do things – like eat their veggies, brush their teeth, go to bed on time, etc.. Shall we call that coercion?
And the people who think “against my will” is the same as “I don’t like it” should ask themselves these questions: Do you like going to work everyday? Do you go to work against your will?
You can do things that you don’t like, but which are not against your will.
Reflecting back on this thread, it’s clear that:
a) It’s is very difficult, if not impossible, to persuade a woman who doesn’t want to be persuaded – just look at this thread - how many women were persuaded by a man of anything? Women are not the helpless victims they paint themselves to be.
b) Women are the masters of persuasion and manipulation – not men.
MELOFELO..ur an ass. To say that if "NO" is said in your relationship then it is the end, show that your are a SELFISH human being..unbelievable!
Unbelievable are the women who condemn men for being selfish. You are just as, if not more selfish. Why isn’t the woman who says, “NO”, selfish?
And condemning selfish people is like condemning a cat for killing a mouse. Selfishness is a method of self-preservation. If people where not selfish, especially in a word full of selfish people – they’d be dead. Can you really count on someone else to look after your needs? Be unselfish and donate most of your money to charity, will you?
What’s also unbelievable is that selfish people are among the easiest to deal with – if you know how to. You can always count on selfish people to be selfish. Therefore, with little ingenuity you can appeal to their selfish nature, and get your way almost all the time. But I guess you rather insult selfish people than learn how to deal with them.
And you misinterpreted melo’s post. Sex to men is like emotions to women – going without either one for certain period of time naturally kills the relationship. When the “NO” begins to happen more often then the “YES”, you can expect problems – not just men, women too. Horny gals don’t take BS from any man – they get what they want or they find another man, and aren’t apologetic about it. | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/6/2008 10:21:49 PM |
what matters to me first, without which nothing else would matter, is that we have a good, frequent, and intense sexual connection. If that fades, or isn't there, then I wouldn't continue on in the relationship
Tragic for you is that changing your screen name has eliminated everything you've posted before, but hasn't eliminated the memory of your fellow forum members. There is a lot that you have presented within this thread that I would argue, based merely from your past posting history.
How can you claim the above quote, when you denied your wife sex for years yet continued on in the relationship. You have claimed that she was nice and you both were amicable.
"what matters to me first, without which nothing else would matter, is that we have a good, frequent, and intense sexual connection"
I've felt intense compassion and pity for your wife from your earliest posts on relationships. *You* are the one in a relationship that said "NO". *You* are the one who has trangressed your own rules for the covenant. Ren, you blow it out both holes. You are a convenient arguer.
And, why are you still posting, when you promised the rest of us that you were quits with this thread? | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 12:28:56 AM | Sheeesh....now I know why I've never been married. My idea of marriage is about BOTH parties respecting the needs and feelings of each other. So if I didn't feel like it and he did, or vice versa, we each respect the other.
What happens if he felt like it and you didn't, or vice versa? Do you still respect the needs and feelings of each other? | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 2:03:56 AM |
What happens if he felt like it and you didn't, or vice versa? Do you still respect the needs and feelings of each other?
It's all about respecting the feelings of your partner. "Later." "Tomorrow." are things that any loving partner can understand. "Never" is a deal breaker.
If you felt like it and she didn't, and you still insisted on sex, you would essentially be mastubating in her dead body. Is that anywhere near what you want? I do believe that you will build resentment with your lack of respect for her feelings. If she felt like it and he didn't, there isn't a heck of a lot that can be physically done. So, she will have to take care of herself.
As long as this scenario isn't an ongoing thing, I see no problem. Surely you must expect that you both won't be on the same page all the time. | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 11:51:37 AM |
And, why are you still posting, when you promised the rest of us that you were quits with this thread?
Awe come on, we all know that he ALWAYS needs to have the last word.  | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 1:41:15 PM |
What happens if he felt like it and you didn't, or vice versa? Do you still respect the needs and feelings of each other?
Does anyone still believe that it is only women who turn their partners down after being a member of the POF forums for more than 24 hours?
There are a lot more ways to say "no" than just with one's vocal chords and women have no corner on that particular market...
The sexiest feeling in the world is the one where we're in each other's arms because there's no place on earth we would rather be. The biggest turnoff in the world is being in someone's arms because you believe that you have to be in order to "honour an agreement" or because you have been told that he is going to "go out and get laid" if you don't put out.
Unfettered choices and respect for each other's right to say "no" has ALWAYS precipitated the best sex while feelings of obligation set both people up for disappointment. I pity people who don't understand this! | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 2:31:48 PM | | Melofello has completely proven my theory that IDIOTS, have no idea they are IDIOTS! All I have to say to him is...GOOD LUCK! And to any woman who gets involved with him...GOD HELP! Now, I say we stop giving him the attention he is in such desperate need of and save our breath!! | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 2:34:59 PM | | PS.. DAISEYPETAlS..YOU ROCK! WHAT YOU WROTE WAS HILARIOUS...i HARDLY THINK WITH THAT ATTITUDE THE PARADE OF WOMEN IS VERY LONG! | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 2:41:38 PM |
Msg: 230 -- This is a weapon that many women use and it's wrong.
It is not considered wrong in the eyes of the law. The woman defines the parameters of rape and the law abides by those parameters when the woman presses the charge. The only thing a woman needs to prove is sexual contact.
| |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 5:10:50 PM |
Awe come on, we all know that he ALWAYS needs to have the last word.
Hee hee.....aint that the truth!!
Btw,love your posts,Nav........
And,Daisy,too.........tell it like it is , girl .........: ) FANTASTIC.
 | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 7:46:08 PM |
It's all about respecting the feelings of your partner. "Later." "Tomorrow." are things that any loving partner can understand. "Never" is a deal breaker.
Exactly!!!! | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 7:50:31 PM |
It is not considered wrong in the eyes of the law. The woman defines the parameters of rape and the law abides by those parameters when the woman presses the charge. The only thing a woman needs to prove is sexual contact.
Speaking from personal experience only...it is very hard to prove rape when it is someone you know...and the attendant microscope into your sexual history, and old fashioned views about women and sex...it really doesn't seem worth the effort...IMO...
Where I live, the police do not take anyone's word ( male or female) for anything( sexual or otherwise) that is claimed to be perpetuated..that is what lawyers and courts are for..they do not prosecute on someone's word alone...and while at one time it may have been true that men were often presumed guilty...I do not see any evidence of that anymore...and I work for attorneys. The pendulum is swinging back on gender bias in domestic courts for sure, and others are following..we will see the happy medium in our lifetime, IMO.
Men who keep perpetuating the idea that women frequently accuse falsely, just make it harder for women who have been genuinely assaulted..sure, some women do this, some men rape or assault..but, it isn't a majority..however, I will comment that it is either better reported and/or it has increased since I was younger ( when my incident happened)..but, that is another topic...
I don't think anyone who has never experienced rape or sexual assault can totally understand it's effects..and I would also guarantee that the reaction of men who have been and women is different..because we are different, and different things affect us..so, I may not understand how a man who has experienced this really feels, nor will he me...compassion and understanding for the fact that is a traumatic and possibly life alternating experience should always be present, IMO...however, often on the forums, it appalls me how many people never see it that way...or justify the behavior of the perpetrator..or, even worse..blame the victim...
There are real victims, and while I don't advocate using that as an excuse to not heal, or to blame everyone, or take it out on everyone...it appears that some think that it should be dismissed, or swept under the rug, or that attacking the victim for being a victim, is perfectly ok...I wonder where all the empathy and caring in the world seems to have gone at times.... | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/7/2008 10:26:58 PM | Unless it is by previously agreed "role play", "no" means "no" . However, when someone says "no" in a relationship, for me it would indicate a serious dysfunction in the relationship, and probably signal the time to consider ending it.
Theologically, in marriage, one surrenders control of his/her body to his/her partner. Men, as they get older, have times, when they aren't "in the mood", just as women do, but in a functional relationship, one partner will try to respond if his/her partner expresses a desire for sexual union.
However, in a legal sense, no one has a right to "force" sex. As I said above, though, saying "no" is a relationship killer, although it does have to be respected.
My undeniable "rule" for myself, is that being told "no" is a final answer. If I were told "no"...it would process as "never", and I'd exit the relationship, but I would never "rape".
********************************
Wow, not much of a "MeloFelow" are you bud? | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 12:04:55 AM | Are you kidding me. I am 36 years old and have never went any farther than a woman will allow me weather I was married or just a boyfriend. Any man that forces himself on a woman should either be CASTRATED or PROSECUTED to the fullest extent of the law. If you said no and the guy went ahead and did it anyway, it was RAPE pure and simple. The federal courts define rape as any sexual penetration without concent. That means that when you say no, no means no PERIOD! I hope this helps in your quest. | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 4:16:15 AM | Where I live, the police do not take anyone's word ( male or female) for anything( sexual or otherwise) that is claimed to be perpetuated..that is what lawyers and courts are for..they do not prosecute on someone's word alone...and while at one time it may have been true that men were often presumed guilty...I do not see any evidence of that anymore...and I work for attorneys. The pendulum is swinging back on gender bias in domestic courts for sure, and others are following..we will see the happy medium in our lifetime, IMO.
Can you say "Duke Three"?
.sure, some women do this, some men rape or assault..but, it isn't a majority
How do you know it?
Men who keep perpetuating the idea that women frequently accuse falsely, just make it harder for women who have been genuinely assaulted
Wrong. Women who make false accusations or dilute the meaning of rape to encompass every type of sexual interaction (read some of the things that are considered "rape" in this thread) make it harder for women who have been genuinely assaulted.
I wonder where all the empathy and caring in the world seems to have gone at times....
Personally speaking, for me it died when I saw a friend being falsely accused by a vengeful ex. | |
|
| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 2:42:00 PM |
Msg: 251 -- when someone says "no" in a relationship, for me it would
indicate a serious dysfunction in the relationship, and probably
signal the time to consider ending it.
"Probably" has no meaning here. When "probably" comes into being, the
relationship has ALREADY ended. Exclude THAT word, then I can agree
with you TOTALLY.
in a functional relationship, one
partner will try to respond if his/her partner expresses a desire for
sexual union.
This is where TRUE **LOVE** comes into play. The willing and loving
response shows both partners value the relationship. The refusal of
either partner shows the relationship has no value.
However, in a legal sense, no one has a right to "force" sex. As I
said above, though, saying "no" is a relationship killer, although it
does have to be respected.
I FULLY agree. I will NOT force myself on anyone. But if I feel the
NEED to force myself on someone, that WILL force an END to the
relationship.
My undeniable "rule" for myself, is that being told "no" is a final
answer. If I were told "no"...it would process as "never", and I'd
exit the relationship, but I would never "rape".
Thank you so MUCH for clarifying MY position on this subject.
Msg: 253 -- Women who make false accusations or dilute the
meaning of rape to encompass every type of sexual interaction (read
some of the things that are considered "rape" in this thread) make it
harder for women who have been genuinely assaulted.
For the multitude of false charges, it becomes increasingly difficult
to discern the truth. This reason, more than ANYTHING else, either
acquits a valid rape charge or convicts an innocent man.
Personally speaking, for me it died when I saw a friend being falsely
accused by a vengeful ex.
So much for sympathy and/or empathy. When a LIE comes up close and
personal, then ENDS what should be a normal life for a friend or one's
self, hostility toward what SHOULD be a valid cause begins.
My apologies for this, but whenever a woman calls "rape" these days,
the FIRST thought in my mind is that she is pi$$ed at her boyfriend or
husband. AND, I'll be the first to admit that is wrong, but it is a
reflex response based on so MANY false accusations I have seen in the
past.
| |
|
|
| Page 10 of 14
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 |
|
Home
login 
