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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 3:39:25 PM | Melo, no matter how you try to pain this, especially saying if she says no it is over. Instead she has to say something that doesn't offend my pee pee and my sensibility.
We see so many threads on "why do women beat around the bush" (oddly appropriate pun.) then here is a guy that says a woman has to beat around the bush, instead of being direct.
I can't help laugh considering on sitcoms women get a bad break saying "not to night dear, I have a headache".
Here's the real kick in the shorts of all insults
The fundamental point to much of my posts is, that the "deal" is that two people exchange their freedom to have other sex partners, for an assurance that sex will usually be available. If it turns out that's not the case, then the other, to me, is no longer entitled to fidelity or exclusivity. Thus the comment that a woman's choice to control her sexuality does not control mine. If she won't, then she has no basis to complain, if I look elsewhere.
If I can't have sex, and that is the only real reason I am with a woman, then I can get it else where, and monogamy, or faithfulness has no place in my life.. OK, well I am so glad that there aren't as many men with your thought process.
It is down right sad to think that some people regard a partner as their property when it comes to their sexual needs.
Don't get me wrong, if no becomes the regular, I exit the relationship after a while. It isn't because I feel I am being denied, but rather that I will have tried all I need to do to understand what the problem is. If my partner is NOT interested or willing to work out the situation, then I would be saying later, if it was simply he wasn't interested in being intimate with me any longer.
However an occasional NO, does not mean I exit the relationship, nor does it mean that I disrespect my partner and cheat on them, because I feel my NEED for sex is more important than the relationship with my partner.
A commitment to another person means that I can control my urges until we work things out. Sometimes people can't but it doesn't men forcing another to have sex, or cheating on them, simply because I feel entitled to sex when I want.
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 3:49:40 PM |
Melo, no matter how you try to pain this, especially saying if she says no it is over. Instead she has to say something that doesn't offend my pee pee and my sensibility.
I think the essence of why a direct, bald "no" is destructive, was capurted in post #242, Lil Brooker, who is hardly one of my "fans".
It's all about respecting the feelings of your partner. "Later." "Tomorrow." are things that any loving partner can understand. "Never" is a deal breaker.
There is a difference between accepting that there are times, when making love would not be something that would ring you closer, and "accepting" that a woman is free to view sex as belonging just to her, and feeling no compulsion to be sensitive to her partner's wants, needs, and desires in a relationship.
None of which has anything to do with rape.
I have never attempted to "force" sex. In fact, on the occasions where a woman has seemed to be "rejecting", I can't head for the exit fast enough. I'm really the easiest guy in the world to "get rid of" in a relationship. I don't stay, if name calling, distance, or dismissive "no" comes into play. I simply look elsewhere. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 3:56:34 PM | Rape is rape, no matter what. And YES, it can occur in marriage!! How do I know...I WAS married. Now I'm not!!! I didn't cry rape because I was pi$$ed at my husband!! I cried rape because that's what it was!! | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 4:51:21 PM |
Msg: 257 -- Rape is rape, no matter what. And YES, it can occur in
marriage!!
The legal system has declared ALL marriages to be invalid. Why?
Because rape is IMPOSSIBLE in a VALID marriage, and yet the LAW states
that a married person can charge a spouse with rape.
If ANY married person believes that rape is possible WITHIN the
confines of so-called "wedded bliss", that marriage is invalid and
should be dissolved. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 5:15:40 PM | Wow stargazer...!
Well, I have to give you credit for being honest; such honesty is many times lacking.
I think that part of the rape problem comes from today's permissive society. Guys grow up and get the notion that all women are eager to put out and so develop expectations. When they find that the reality is that they are not so eager to put out, they get frustrated and attempt fulfill their expectations.
Can we say that they just haven't been brought up properly?
The morals of the whole nation have been going down the tubes.
All disappointment in every area of life comes from having expectations that may not have anyting to do with reality. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 5:27:37 PM | | If my marriage was INVALID then why did I have to go through all the BS of a divorce? I'm the one that went through all the pain and got NOTHING out of it!! | |
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jo5h
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Joined: 9/7/2008
Msg: 257 | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 6:14:40 PM |
The legal system has declared ALL marriages to be invalid. Why?
Because rape is IMPOSSIBLE in a VALID marriage, and yet the LAW states
that a married person can charge a spouse with rape.
If ANY married person believes that rape is possible WITHIN the
confines of so-called "wedded bliss", that marriage is invalid and
should be dissolved.
Are you honestly saying rape can't occur within marriage? | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 6:34:47 PM |
Rape of a person’s spouse is called marital rape or spousal rape. The English common law and traditional U.S. and Canadian law did not recognize rape within a marriage as a crime. As recently as the 1960s the American Law Institute recommended retaining the historical legal doctrine that a man cannot rape his wife. The organization based this recommendation on the theory that it was inappropriate for the law to invade marital privacy. However, as a result of changing attitudes about domestic violence, many states abandoned this doctrine and began to allow prosecutions for marital rape, especially if it is committed by force. In Canada, spouses may be convicted of criminal sexual assault.
This is from MSN Encarta...if that helps. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 9:12:18 PM |
Msg: 259 -- The morals of the whole nation have been going down the
tubes.
There is NO doubt about that. Love, honesty, fidelity, and all else
essential to good relationships seems to have been almost totally
destroyed.
Msg: 260 -- If my marriage was INVALID then why did I have to go
through all the BS of a divorce? I'm the one that went through all the
pain and got NOTHING out of it!!
Your difficulty resulted from defective laws.
Msg: 262 -- Are you honestly saying rape can't occur within marriage?
Rape is impossible between partners who truly love each other. A
marriage without such love is invalid. So, in spite of what the law
says, rape can not occur within a valid marriage. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/8/2008 9:26:44 PM | ummmm...starregazer,
Rape is impossible between partners who truly love each other.
The courts do recognize that there is rape within a marriage.
Why? Since I have been on here (POF) I have seen many bizarre declarations of love. Men who have treated their wives so badly and the wives still love him. Women who have treated their husbands so badly but those husbands love them so much and still keep coming back for more. There is HUGE dysfunctiality in what people's perspective on what love is. Yes...there is rape between partners who believe they love each other. What is love? It's different to everyone. No wonder the law has to step in. To save people from themselves.
A marriage without such love is invalid. So, in spite of what the law
says, rape can not occur within a valid marriage.
In spite of what the law says........what are you? A law onto yourself?
Are you saying that YOU are above the law?
A valid marriage is a valid amrriage until death or a divorce. That is the law. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:13:01 AM | OMG, I can't believe that you people are still arguing with these 2 guys. What is being solved/accomplished here?
Ladies, continuing to "debate" with these them and trying to make them see differently is an exercise in futility - kinda like talking to 2 brick walls. If you stop, they'll stop... and wouldn't that be a good thing?? | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:30:07 AM |
For gawds sake, I sure hope your daughter was smart enough to find her sources for information someplace OTHER than a free dating site's Forums....
If the OP is indeed doing research, for WHATEVER reasons, this is not the place, in my opinion.
Sounds plausible, sure... but getting her information here? She's 19... out of H.S., so this is
hardly the place for a collegiate to find anything worthy of using in a college paper.....
Unless she wants to fill us in on her "studies".... such as they are...........
Late to this thread... But maybe she is studying the subject, and was just curious about people's opinion on POF about the subject, since she's studying it and the subject is fresh on her mind?
She doesn't actually say she's using forum posts for any sort of 'research' | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:33:19 AM | Navigator6
<div class="quote"> OMG, I can't believe that you people are still arguing with these 2 guys. What is being solved/accomplished here?
I agree with what you are saying. I guess what really gets us women is that these guys really believe this, and there are a heck of a lot of men that have this attitude. I don't believe in using sex as a reward, or a weapon to punish, because that is manipulating a spouse.
However there are times when either partner may just not have it going, whether it be a hormone slump, or what ever. This shouldn't be grounds to consider there is an invalidation to the relationship.
Men say they are too tired as well, and we women don't think, well if you say no, that means never, and I am going to go out and get it from whom ever because you don't control my sexuality.
You know what I am saying???
Can rape happen in a relationship, yes it can, and it isn't a pleasant or pretty experience. It may not seem as violent, or emotionally damaging then a stranger rape, but it does cause emotional damage.
It IS over the top to have two guys saying they wouldn't force a woman to have sex, BUT, we shall cheat, because we want what we want, and your feelings are Not important. I think that is what really grates on us. That is just as much of an attitude of forcing a partner into having sex, without the actual use of force.
Melo. in a situation as rape in a relationship/marriage we don't know if the person is dismissive with a straight out "no", or hun I am beat, and would like to cuddle. The issue was brought up by YOU, in the start it would be the end if she said no. We have been having to defend against that, not how or what was said. No usually comes up after the explaining the why not, perhaps you didn't think of that.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:42:19 AM |
It IS over the top to have two guys saying they wouldn't force a woman to have sex, BUT, we shall cheat, because we want what we want, and your feelings are Not important. I think that is what really grates on us. That is just as much of an attitude of forcing a partner into having sex, without the actual use of force.
This whole topic is a lot more controversial for me in "theory", as in this thread, than it ever has been in "practice", in real relationships I've had.
I think Lil Brooker "got it" in her post #242. She is someone who is generally critical of me in the fora, but I think she went to the heart of things in saying that it's one thing to share with a partner that you're tired, sick, etc., and, by implication, "ask" for understanding, while validating that his wants and needs matter, and quite another to dismissively say "no".
What pushes my buttons, is when women say things that imply that all that matters in a relationship of 2 is what 1 thinks. It's wrong, when a man has that attitude of entitlement, and it's wrong when a woman does.
So, yes, my posts are somewhat reactive to the attitude that all that matters is what a woman wants, and were I to be in such a relationship, there's a really good chance, that I'd find someone else, who wasn't dismissive and who cared what I think, feel, and want. Of course, the truth is that I have no idea why either would want to continue in a relationship, if sex becomes an "issue", rather than something that is drawing them closer. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:58:42 AM | | Very late to this thread that seems to be going in circles.2 very stubborn guys who think they are entitled to what they want when they want it. Fortunately I am far enough from this debate to be objective, but they fall into the MCP category and I doubt that they are willing to admit that ! Hope they find submissive women! | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/9/2008 7:36:36 AM | | yes...if your significant other forces himself or herself on you forcefully even when you say no or make strong efforts to resist but they tie you down and has relations with you forcefully, yep....deff rape! | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/9/2008 7:48:37 AM | Rape is rape...period!
Marriage doesn't constitute control, merely privilege and "not feeling up to it" or "not now" means NO. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/9/2008 3:51:28 PM |
Msg: 272 -- Rape is rape...period!
And WHY do you even CONSIDER the OBVIOUS to even be an ARGUMENT? I FULLY agree with you! There is NO contention regarding this.
Marriage doesn't constitute control, merely privilege and "not feeling up to it" or "not now" means NO.
Perhaps the keyword "marriage" presents the problem of disagreement? Then REPLACE it with LOVE or the LACK thereof.
MARRIAGE implies LOVE, in SPITE of seeming evidence otherwise. LOVE implies being in tune with the SO's desires. MARRIAGE, combined with LOVE, implies a sexual bond. Denial of that sexual bond denies the validity of the marriage and of the love that SUPPOSEDLY inspired it. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:47:56 PM | | I know first hand about this. It all comes down to have control over you. And you want to call the cops but you don't because he your lover | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/10/2008 8:20:57 AM | | 'Rape (within marriage) is like being force-fed chocolate cake' - quoted by a political activist - shortly before he was fired. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/10/2008 8:59:58 AM | I agree completely with the second poster. If you say no they should respect your wishes. There are many stories about women being abused/raped by their husbands. No, means no it is not complicated
KAT | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/17/2008 9:01:02 PM | "There is a very high percentage of men out there that feel that if they give their attentions, help, or interactions to a woman in any way, she is obliged to entitle him with sex. It is looked upon as a financial exchange, not a bond, not a mutually satisfying act. It is owed him for the slightest offering of humanity he may throw her way.
Many men think that you owe them sex for the offering of a drink, a ride home, help with something, anything. This attitude of sexual entitlement is why women have become so standoffish, independant, and basically steer clear of men . Often when men don`t recieve their "just" rewards, especially in a relationship, they may become hostile and "take" what is owed him.
For men like this, the furthest thing on his mind is if the woman is enjoying the sex.
He is concerned at getting his own carnal needs met. The debt to him for his care is being payed. And for men like this, they feel cheated if they are not "payed."and may just decide to take what is owed them.
This is the whole premise of date rape or rape within a relationship. Most goes unreported because it would make a very weak case. I think this is somewhat the mindset of some of the men posting here. This is just the way they see it. A very unevolved, animalistic entitled view to what is owed them by the female and what the female is good for. The world is full of them. Nothing new.
For all the women who have ended up with a man on top of her just hammering away until he is done, with no sense of connection, no tenderness, no concern as to if she is enjoying herself or not, they know how it is. Men like this view sex totally differently. It`s an exchange. That`s why we are afraid to let you pay for dinner or even go out for dinner. If we let you do anything for us, you may feel we owe you. I don`t let a man do ANYTHING for me, unless he was my lover and I trusted him that he was not this way.
Anyone else, forget it, I`ve learned my lesson about accepting the kindnesses of men.
I won`t risk it. "
I agree with desert wildflower 100%. With some men, I think this has to do partly with how they perceived how women were treating them as they grew up - a young man that was repeatedly rejected by women, deformed ego, yet watched while his buddies got laid at will...impotent...jealous...perhaps he waited until his buddies were done screwing drunk pickups, then went in afterwards...(did these women even know?)...as the years passed, resentment and seething anger and rage, hostility, against women (all women, because they were now unrespectable objects that he had to dominate and humililate and control)...refusing to hear the word no... | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/17/2008 9:31:56 PM | | Unfortunately 'rape' is possible in any relationship setting,given the right conditions (which can vary greatly).Its not a subject to be toyed with. Only those who have been there,can tell the horror story.Not to mention the decade or so of trying to get your head around what happened ,an try to come to some sort of understanding of or come to terms with.The head battle can go on for years.The damage in some ways can be permanent. How different we are all brought up/cultural /religious/personal beliefs.Then ,there also is the mental issue on some occasions.How we are also treated by others as we grow also influences,plus our complex personalities.Lack of respect for others,indifference,greed-I want,I want/control freaks,lack self respect,cultural differences-beliefs etc... List is endless.Find some case studies or talk general to rape crisis centre-general background info not personal details of victims. | |
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| rape in a relationship?
Posted: 12/17/2008 10:42:59 PM | What causes rape in a relationship? a wide variety of causes ... control, drunkenness, anger, horniness, not understanding .. or caring that someone may actually mean NO, feeling that it is "owed" to you .... etc etc etc.
Is rape even possible in a relationship/marriage? absolutely.... in the definition of the word.
However, although it can always be called rape ... I do believe there are times and circumstances where a man is not deserving of actual rape charges and labelling. Before I fall under attack, I will try to explain why I say this ... with an actual example.
A man and a woman marry ... and have an active sex life. Later, the woman is less and less frequently "in the mood". At a point in the relationship, she cuts him off almost entirely ... but enjoys all the other benefits of being this man's wife. The man does not cheat, and gets very sexually frustrated. One night he has one drink too many and gets aggressive and forces himself on his wife.
In my opinion and beliefs, in a case like this the man may be technically guilty of "rape", but I do not feel he is deserving of the label of a "rapist" ... or the legal charges of a "rapist". | |
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