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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/8/2008 8:17:43 PM | The only objections to homosexuality are based on religion, and are therefore complete bullsh*t (because all religion is complete bullsh*t.)
Gay bashers are bad people who enjoy violence for its own sake, and merely use gayness as an excuse. There is no difference between being anti-gay and being racist.
And this statement is complete bullsh!t. Also sounds a bit raciest to me to those of any kind of faith. This subject is not what the OP asked. This answer is just another attack on any faith of people who believe in any form of faith. Maybe this poster has to understand that it does not matter what faith you have, but how you act towards others. A mirror would do justice. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/8/2008 8:53:24 PM | | Instead of editing the post, I duplicated it by mistake. Sorry, please see my contribution right below this one. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/8/2008 8:59:34 PM | "Ever hear about the case study of the twin boys? One of the boy's penis was burnt off during a botched circumsicion. The parents then, with some convincing from a psychologist, decided to raise the child as a 'girl'.
It was a monumental disaster, and the 'girl' eventually re-adopted a male name, got married and eventually shot himself in the parking lot of a grocery store."
Yes, I think I read the above somewhere, I think it was one of the "Reader's Digest Very Special Story".
Never mind the gay people turn to straight; what about straight people turn to gray? I mean, gay? I tried it, three times, all intentionally.
The first time I was 24, and I was really badly sexually deprived (not depraved) so I decided to turn gay, upon the insistence of my then best friend; he assured me I could get laid every night with a new person.
I bought some gay smut mag, and started to train myself. I started with trying to masturbate to these pictures. I always lost my erection when I opened the mags.
Second time: I was really low on funds, and I decided to become a gay prostitute. I put an ad in the local smut paper, COST ME $300. That was in the mid-nineties. I got three calls in all. I talked to each three customer until I wanted to throw up.
Third time: A gay friend of mine inherited $20,000,000.00, give or take. I always figured money was sexy. I stood once beside him, trying to propose money for sex. He was very lonely, a decent type of gay, a decent type of guy. I looked at him and he must have guessed my thoughts, he smiled at me in a warm way. I don't know what my expression was then, but my thoughts were screaming, "no, no, no!"
So how can you expect a gay guy to turn straight, and how can you figure they turned gay despite being straight? I could not turn myself gay for the sake of love, money or money. To those who say, religious people or otherwise, that gays can choose, I say you try to be gay; you can do it, too, if you put your mind to it, if it is indeed only a matter of choice. If they cannot do it, that should be enough proof for them to see that nobody can do it.
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It's not genetic, it's congenital. Big difference. Genetic stuff is inherited. Yet no exclusively gay person has passed down his genes. Congenital can mean from birth. Gays may have mutation of the gene for sexual preference that makes a gay gene. Or gays may have a hypothalamus deformation, effecting the same thing. Left-handed males with a certain brain wave function have a high probability to turn out to be gay. Etc. There is no conclusive evidence to point at anything why people turn gay. No genetical, hypothalamus, or hormonal causes. No brain wave, brain chemistry or brain activity is connected to being gay.
So if it's not a matter of choice, if it's not inherited, if it's unknown and unclear why people are gay, I put forth the proposition that men become gays on God's special command. It's God that makes them gay, since nothing else does.
Some Bible scholars argue that the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god is gay. To live a life only with angels for half of eternity, and all angels being male, I'd suggest that it's not rocket science to figure that God is gay and he makes gays in his own image. Whether it's a JPG image or a Bitmap or TIFF file, the gay images are copies of God.JPG. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:28:52 AM | You know, there is published science on this issue. So far it says that like with most complex human social behaviors, who we want to have sex with isn't strictly determined by our genes. It also says that just like anything else humans do or are, our genes do play some role in it even if not a precisely deterministic role.
If interested you might start (but it's just a start and in no way a summary of all available resources) with these two links:
The studies Wikipedia cites say its not predominantly biological nor can you rule out genetics as being involved in the matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
The American Psychological Association says it's not simply genetic but also not a simple matter of choice either.
http://www.apahelpcenter.org/articles/article.php?id=31
Personally, I think casting the issue as a Nurture vs Nature debate is a false dilemma and that Science is turning away from thinking of most human social actions in that way since there aren't many social actions that humans take that don't involve both who we are and the world we find ourselves in.
I also think that the idea that "no one would choose to be gay" is pretty insulting to either homosexuals or the idea of love (depending on what exactly you mean by the phrase), though I realize it's an unintentional insult. But it's also a pretty bad argument even if you discard the implied insult within it as plenty of people choose behavior that others, or even they themselves, see as harmful or just negative and leave themselves open to ridicule, oppression, and even physical danger from society. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:47:57 AM | Shmodzilla's Post: "I almost have to insist to myself that anyone that does'nt believe truly gay people are gay by nature have never met a truly gay person. Nobody taught these people to be this way."
Shmodzilla, I have a nephew, a half sister and a co-worker that are all homosexuals. In all instances, it was social engineering. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 7:05:53 AM | The laws against gay marriage prove that a majority of Americans believe the falsehood that being gay is wrong, or "sinful", or "a disease to be cured", etc.
In reality, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with it (and this is the case whether it is a choice or not.)
The people who are sick and need to be cured are those who think that they have a right to tell others what they can or can't do in their private lives, or who they are permitted to love and marry!
Personally, I think that gays (like atheists) are too polite and accomodating. I think it is time for them to stand up forcefully for their rights and give their enemies the finger! If I were gay, I would be extremely p*ssed off about the way society treats the whole subject! | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 7:16:58 AM |
they cannot have their own children. ..may be some of them have no problem with this but I don't think all of them prefer it...
Are you freakin' serious?!?! Geeze!!  Being gay does not make you unhuman!! Especially in this day in age - there are tons of ways to have their own children!!! Ever hear of surrogates?! The list goes on!! Welcome to the year 2008!!
As I read through this thread there is so much ignorance that abounds! It makes me extremely sad for the people who have to suffer the wrath of such intollerance and insufferable benightedness!! | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 7:58:46 AM | I believe that human beings are designed to include a more or less constant level of homosexuality (about 10%). My understanding is that homosexuals form a vital subgroup (just look at how many politicians, artists, and philosophers have been gay).
Homosexuality... basic attraction, maybe genetic... personally I am straight, my attention naturally flows towards women.
but... homosexual sex... the act, can be performed by anyone. Even though I identify as straight, I've gotten it on with some of my male friends, for fun, I've also f*ck cucumbers but that doesn't make me a vegetablist... just openminded. I used to wonder if I was bi, now I know I'm just a horny, openminded, straight man.
The act should not be confused with the identity.
Another case in point are the ancient societies (Rome and Greece) which had huge homosexual and pedophilic components... it wasn't because there were more homosexuals (people who identify as prefering their own gender) but rather that the sexual acts were more accepted. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 9:54:44 AM | Even though I identify as straight, I've gotten it on with some of my male friends, for fun, I've also f*ck cucumbers but that doesn't make me a vegetablist... just openminded. I used to wonder if I was bi, now I know I'm just a horny, openminded, straight man.
Even open-minded horny straight men just don't find the idea of sex with men interesting. This scenario pretty much makes you the definition of bi. Men who aren't at all interested in other men couldn't perform or function in that realm.
Edit for response below: Call yourself whatever you want. I don't have a lot of stake in your sexuality. However, your behavior points towards functional bisexuality. And lots of self-identified homosexuals "work" in both realms, making them, yes, "bi," but they prefer the social label of homosexual... quite possibly because they fall closer to gay than straight on the continuum.
I'm pretty sure nobody even remotely cares about the fruits and vegetables. Perhaps you should consider "Emo" as a self-label? | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:06:06 AM | | What about the cucumber? Explain the cucumber. I never said that I found it interesting, we did it, we laughed about it afterwards and I never went there again. Besides, closeted gay men do it with their wives for years before they admit it to themselves that it really isn't 'doing anything for them'. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 1:17:48 PM | Sexuality and sexual preference is never an either/or type of thing.
Sexual preference is rather like a wide spectrum of possibilities. A little more this way or a little more that way. There are no hard and fast rules about what anyone will or will not do.
I believe people do what they are encouraged to do.
People are what they are encouraged to be, or are not what they are discouraged from being.
There are lots of examples of people who are straight when they are younger but become ( or discover ) their gay selves later on.
There are lots of examples of people who are gay when they are young but discover or become straight when they grow older.
Peoples lives change as the conditions of their lives change.
People tend to go along with what the conditions of their lives dictate.
Yes, there is such a thing as genetic pre-conditions but social pressure tends to over-ride those genetic tendencies. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 4:29:34 PM | | hi.. I am going to assume that the States which do not recognize gay marriages are states made up of people who hold on to traditional, dare I say biblical, views of marriage... these people also have a right to vote and to feel strongly about their position... if gay marriages were recognized world wide, wouldnt the voices of many still be stifled??... I am afraid that I can not hear your disgust of gay bashing through your bashing of religion or God or speech or choice or opinion or or or... bashing is bashing and it is hurtful towards what ever group you are talking about or directing it to...everyone should be entitled to their own opinions, beliefs and views without finding it necessary to attack those who do not share those opinions, beliefs and views.... I love my daughter yet I do not always love her actions yet I am not going to condone them either ... for me , my views are based on what Gods View is on the matter regardless of how popular or unpopular it is with the masses.... as for whether a person chooses to be gay or if it is their lot in life, they will work it through with the same pull down menu that we all share.... blessings for Abundant Love, Internal Peace and Everlasting Happiness , warmly Mona | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 5:25:21 PM | Since we've now actually seen evidence based on imaging the human brain, and forensic studies of the brain, that there is an actual physical, measurable difference in the brain between homosexual and heterosexuals, isn't that pretty much settling this debate?
In the scientific community it is now accepted as genetic.
Dunno if this link will come through:
u/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/scotts/bulgarians/nature-nurture/levay.html
If not- google it and look for a reliable source connected to actual clinical studies and/or universities.
;)
Meridith | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:03:23 PM | | I think being gay can stem from many factors. I mean, it's really hard to put an exact cause to why people are gay. I have talked to a few gay people before about this, men and women alike and I get diff answers about why they are gay. Some have said, because they came from being in abusive situations. Others have said, they just feel more accepted being with their own sex. While others have said, they just simply were never attracted to the opposite sex in the first place. It's really hard to say either or because the reasons why people are gay may vary from person to person. | |
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vedin
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Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 40 | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:23:54 PM | Why I fully embrace all the gay people (not physically though), their movement of gaining acceptance and their right to marry, I think that the statement:
"If it is caused by genetic reasons , do you think that it is a disorder?"
can be put into proper perspective if you think that disorders are usually a defect, something that hinders or stops dead cold the survival of the individual and/or that of his or her offspring.
If we accept this definition, then I must ask you: What's the survival advantage (living well and producing healthy offspring) of being gay?
If only amorous love could create offspring, emotional and physical combined, AND gay genes were inherited(*) how long would the species last if everyone was gay? If everyone was heterosexual?
Why do you think I am able to combine an acceptance of gay people and at the same time see that gayhood is an evolutionary dead-end?
Cheers.
Andrew
(*) Many in this thread state that gay behaviour is genetically transmitted. Those who say that, **stardize the research which actually says it's congenital. Genetic means inherited (though something may be congenital as well via a genetic mutation at or after the conception of the fetus) and congenital means from birth -- the cause of congenitality is not genetic necessarily, it could also be an infection, an injury, a poisoning, malnutrition, shock, irradiation, etc. etc. I looked up the definition of "Miss Congenitality" and it said, "those morons who speak English with 70% or less success of mapping words to their meanings in general; in particular, those idiots who miss the meaning of congenitality and erroneously use 'genetic' instead of 'congenitality'." | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/10/2008 5:51:18 AM |
everyone should be entitled to their own opinions, beliefs and views without finding it necessary to attack those who do not share those opinions, beliefs and views
I agree. Religious people are entitled to act on their beliefs by refusing to indulge in gay acts (whatever their orientation may be), and even by not allowing those who do so to enter their churches. They do NOT, however, have the right to attack others by passing laws against gay marriage (or worse yet, labelling homosexuality "sodomy" and jailing people for it, as was done in many states until quite recently! ) Also, nobody has the right to physically harm another person, as gay bashers often do in the name of religion (this is also an abuse of religion itself, since it violates the doctrine of peace.) | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/10/2008 6:55:19 AM |
OP- your question is ludicrous, and save for this admonishment does not deserve a serious response.
Interestingly enough, for the longest time, the DSM listed homosexuality as a psychological disorder. It was taken out in the 60s or 70s? not sure when it was. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/10/2008 1:15:33 PM | | More and more I think people are just 'sexual' (except the asexuals) they might prefer one gender or another but nothing is set in stone. Beside I hate it when people label me. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/10/2008 2:01:50 PM |
Since we've now actually seen evidence based on imaging the human brain, and forensic studies of the brain, that there is an actual physical, measurable difference in the brain between homosexual and heterosexuals, isn't that pretty much settling this debate?
In the scientific community it is now accepted as genetic.
Exactly, which is why uninformed opinions ought not bear on these issues. It doesn't matter how many people 'think' or 'believe' that the world is flat, it simply is not and therefore their views are of zero consequence.
You can 'believe' what you like about whether homosexuality is choice or not; and while you're at it, go ahead and try arguing with gravity - it's every bit as logical and sensible. Even the Catholic Church had to admit that the Earth revolves around the Sun.
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/10/2008 6:05:02 PM |
Interestingly enough, for the longest time, the DSM listed homosexuality as a psychological disorder. It was taken out in the 60s or 70s? not sure when it was.
And at one time both the churche and American government had policy stating that blacks and Native Americans were genetically inferior to whites. Only slightly above animals.
Somebody already mentioned the physical difference between the brains.
I was also going to bring up the fact that someone was trying to work on finding a blood test that would be able to identify homosexuality. The agriculteural area was very interested in this. Why? It is often a problem with sheep. It is very mortifying to pay a large sum of money for a ram and have him ignore all the ewes in a field while following another ram around. When I was a teenager we had one - when we didn't have any lambs in the spring we figured it out. Dad got another ram but didn't have the heart to sell the first one, the firt one never got very far away from the second ram, but at least we still had some lambs the second year!
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001979.html | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/10/2008 7:26:43 PM | | I am sincerely sorry if I have offended you, I did not intend to do so. I see homosexuality as simply a difference - like the difference between a man and a woman. I think we simply need to recognize it as a physical and psychological difference and guaranteed to the same right under the Constitution. Something that, regardless of what some people may think, is a valid normal type. Without discussion, however ignorant it might sound, yu cannot have a comparison of thought. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/10/2008 8:27:51 PM | 9/10ths genetic 1/10th social in women (and only 1/100000th of the 1/10 social turn truly gay because they really like it)
10/10ths genetic in men
Case in point, drunk women in bars start kissing, hmmm, they weren't gay 4 beers ago but they somehow are attracted enough to each other that a couple drinks is all it takes to put them over the edge. Seems to be Hollywood driven cool these days.
However, (and this is just my experience) never seen 2 drunk guys necking... even after a case of beer! Been drunk many times and can't say the beer made other men attractive to me.
As far as most animals go they just hump to practice and besides they're animals so really not that bright.
Who really cares, live and let live. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/10/2008 8:33:04 PM |
I find this entire thread to be offensive to human dignity.
It is incredible that in 2008 people are making an issue of homosexuality!
Of what possible relevance or benefit is there in even considering such idiotic questions?
I am disappointed that this is considered a legitimate subject for debate here at POF.
You'd prefer we talk about censorship, perhaps? | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/10/2008 9:03:49 PM | Sweet!
I didn't know this site had forums. Anyways, being gay is genetic. I really don't see how you can choose to like the same sex. And to whomever said that gays are "conditioned" from an early age: My cousin was brought up in the most Catholic of homes and now hes gay. Unless you are saying being raised Catholic made him gay, then your point is entirely moot.
However, I DO think its a "defect." Not in the negative connotation the word has but an overall defect in the genes. Genetically we are made to reproduce. Just like any other "defect" in our bodies when we are born, being gay, or the "gay gene" IS a defect in the genes. Something caused the change that made it stray from the normal genes. Therefore, it is a mistake. Of course, people take this into insult but when you stand back and claim that there is a "gay" gene then there is something scientifically wrong with that person. It's like being born with cancer or aids or any other illness. Something along the way changed the genes to be altered from the norm. | |
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