| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/11/2008 7:06:05 AM | This thread should be called, 'sexual orientation - nature vs. nurture'
We shouldn't be placing all of our focus on Homosexuality.
Homosexuality has always existed and will always exist there I hypothesise that it is natural, and probably | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 8:42:47 AM | : Vedin
I find this entire thread to be offensive to human dignity.
In What way? Most people on here have only pointed out thier thoughts on the subject and the majority are in agreament that a persons sexuality makes no difrence to how they should be treated. I've only seen a few posts so far that I would consider offensive and you will get that on any thread. The pof'ers on her are very polite and freindly and to the most are a civil and open bunch. So in what way do you consider that to be offensive?
Of what possible relevance or benefit is there in even considering such idiotic questions?
d0rene just provided you with an answer to that question. He mentioned how farmers pay a lot of money on animals that turn out to be gay, and they would be intrested in tests that could save them from paying for livestock that will not perform. This is a perfectly valid and lagitimate area of study that could save millions of pounds/dolars.
There are many other areas of intrest that are important for study within this field. There are homosexuals who would rather not be gay, and if a gene therapy could be devoloped to help them live a happier lifestyle then why should we deny them that opertunity? (please note I am talking abut giving people a choice, not trying to eliminate a section of society, just as cochlear implants give the deaf comunity a choice.)
Additionally, it is always important for us to research and understand difrent aspects of human behaviour. We have more money going into reaserch on heterosexual relationships each year than has ever been spent on reaserch into homosexual relationships. And yet homosexuals are just as likely to need relationship and mariage councelling as hetrosexual relationships are.
Heterosexuals have no moral, ethical or jurisdictional right to speculate as to the authenticity or validity of homosexuals.
By saying this, you are setting homosexuals apart from the reast of humanity. On what possible grounds could you object to people reaserching into blood types or eye colours? Saying that straights have no right to try to find out why people are gay is like saying brown haired people have no right to find out why people are blonde!
The causes of homosexuality are irrelevant.
They really are not irelivant if you have any intrest in what it means to be human, as most psychologists and genetacists do. Nature versus nurture is an integral part of identifying the human experiance and trying to quantify what it is that makes us who we are and why we are the way we are.
If for example, it was proven that homosexuality was caused by paternal abuse (which of course it isn't, but lets just run with the anology), then that would prove that homosexuality was not genetic and so a result of conditioning. It would also open up the way for treatment to remove the abnormal behaviour.
If on the other hand it was proven to be caused by a single gene, then it would prove homesexuality to be part of the broad spectum of the human race, no difrent to being ginger or black. It would also alow homosexuals to have a beter understanding of who they are as an indavidual and as part of a colective society, united by thier comon genetic heritage.
Just because something is a sensative subject, dose not make it unworthy of study. If anything it makes it more important to get any definate answers that may be avaliable. Its just important that any reaserch be caried out with the utmost sensativity to the subject, but this is true of all reaserch involving anything thats alive. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 9:51:41 AM | | But the truth is that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality... so even if it is 'caused' by something, it doesn't matter. but I don't think that it is 'caused' by something because it seems to have always existed, in roughly the same proportions, in humans, as well as in animals... so it's most probably as natural heterosexuality. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 10:56:24 AM |
I find this entire thread to be offensive to human dignity.
Absolutely talk about this subject. How else are people going to change their minds and grow if they don't get exposure to different view points.
Being gay is a personal choice, that choice will determine the genetic expression, which is then observable in the genetic code, but not until the choice is made.
The choice (thought) creates the neural pathway, which initiates the chemical response, which then changes the genetic templete. (There are other discussions with regard to choice, but not for this thread)
Every person has the potential for a broad variety of genetic expression. Sexual attraction to the same sex is inherent in EVERYONE. How you choose to express is up to you.
The stigma comes from a society that will not allow differences.
Throughout history there have been cultures where homosexuality was an excepted part of their society and infact there was an indifference because the focus wasn't only on sex, but rather on relationship. Who cares if two people of the same gender are having sex as long as they are happy with the choice?
That is all that should matter. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 3:11:39 PM | OP, Looks like he got his post deleted. That's what happens in here if you degrade someone else's opinions that you don't agree with. Maybe that will teach him to be more respectful towards others post next time.
I really don't see a problem with people contemplating rather or not homosexuality is some sort of disorder. I mean, I’ve have known people that truly do want to seek help for their homosexual urges rather that being psychological help etc... So who's to say? Every homosexual case is diff. Some people like being homosexual while others may not. You have to look at everyone by case by case biases. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 4:04:01 PM |
that choice will determine the genetic expression, which is then observable in the genetic code, but not until the choice is made.
The choice (thought) creates the neural pathway, which initiates the chemical response, which then changes the genetic templete.
This is possibly the most ignorant interpretation and expression of genetics that I have ever read. You don't change your genetic code by choices or actions. It just doesn't happen, (unless you count ingesting highly mutagenic compounds as a choice, because that WILL muck up your genetic code.)
Except for mutations that occur during your lifetime (which are definitely NOT controlled by your choices), you die with the genetic code with which you are born. Perhaps studying up on genetics would help you understand:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics (yes, it's wiki, but it's a good, albeit very basic, starting point.) | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 7:43:11 PM | In cultures that are anti-homosexual and where the death penalty exists for homosexuals you would think that it would not exist if it was a cultural responce. You know places such as Saudi Arabia and ??Wyoming.
In open socities, Human sexuality covers so many variants that genetic or culture is not relevant. With the exception of closed societies it becomes apparent that the overwhelming genetic imperative takes over. Imagine risking your life to have a sexual relationship with someone of your own gender knowing full well that you could face death.
I myself have changed my mind about this and really can only say that I believe each person in the US has a right of life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness. And I knew when I was a kid that when looking at playboy magazines the type of woman I liked.
As far as I am really concerned. Really why car about such things unless they concern you. Live and let live. | |
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vedin
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Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 58 | |
| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 8:07:34 PM |
I really don't see a problem with people contemplating rather or not homosexuality is some sort of disorder.
Well I do.Usine the words ‘homosexuality’ and ‘disorder’ in the same breath is offensive.
In What way?[/post] In this way If it is caused by genetic reasons , do you think that it is a disorder? Now farmers pay a lot of money on animals that turn out to be gay By association a comparison is being make between Gay people and gay pigs! This is offensive! On what possible grounds could you object to people reaserching into blood types or eye colours? The Nazis carried out similar research for their debauched reasons. If for example, it was proven that homosexuality was caused by paternal abuse Interesting example that springs to your mind
And finally; I see that censorship is alive and well at POF, all be it very selective! | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 8:57:38 PM | | Homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom. I'm not talking about gay squirrels prancing down walnut alley in high heels, but primates who engage in physical behavior that would be deemed homosexual. Did they learn how to be gay from us because that would be a remarkable feat for the humble primate. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 9:22:08 PM | This is possibly the most ignorant interpretation and expression of genetics that I have ever read. You don't change your genetic code by choices or actions.
Oh, I love it. The interpretation is watered down, but accurate. Time to go back to school my friend. They're teaching a new paridigm and with the advancements in neural - science all sorts of new information is being discovered.
Perhaps studying up on genetics would help you understand:
Perhaps you might do the same, and I am in school (behavioral medicine, neural biology) and work in the field.
Google: Genetic research - epigenetics to start (gene expression),emotion, neural-plastisity and cellular change are other areas if you are so inclined. Have fun.
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vedin
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Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 61 | |
| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 9:47:34 PM |
Being gay is a personal choice
A dubious assumption indeed! What evidence do you have to support this proposition?
Your comment about sexual attraction to the same sex being inherent in everyone is interesting, but I think that most gays would disagree with you when you say that their sexual orientation is a matter of choice. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 9:50:20 PM | Gene expression does not alter genetic code. The genetic template does not change.
Epigenetics does not deal with changes in the genetic code/template, it deals with differential gene expression, cellular differentiation, morphology, body plan, and the like. It flows FROM the genetic information encoded in your DNA, though, not TO the DNA, and I strain to imagine a case where one becomes in any way genetically gay AFTER "choosing" to be attracted to same-gendered individuals. Now, it's possible that epigenetic differences caused by environment or what have you are the "source" of homosexuality... I never claimed a purely genetic basis for the trait.
You're misunderstanding some of the material you're being presented, is my guess, or just expressing yourself very poorly. Perhaps you could provide relevant references for this alleged "new paradigm." | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 11:05:41 PM | There are studies that are making it appear that homosexuality is caused by many natural factors.
One involves, the increasing immunological responses to fetuses being developed in a woman's womb, and how it affects each subsequent fetus being developed.
And we kind of rely on that process to maintain human fertility. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/12/2008 11:52:06 PM | Well I do.Usine the words ‘homosexuality’ and ‘disorder’ in the same breath is offensive.
Well that's you. You may find it offensive, but I personally have known homosexuals that don't find it offensive. Matter of fact some of them do feel like it's some sort of chemical imbalance in their brain that makes them feel more attracted to their own sex then the opposite sex that they can’t control. A gay person that I used to work with felt that way and that’s just one example and they didn't find it offensive, because they agreed that they felt like it was some sort of mental disorder that they had to live with just like any other mental disorder that millions of other people have to live with daily. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/13/2008 1:51:08 AM | Epigenetics does not deal with changes in the genetic code/template
I never said it did, only a starting point. (But again you seem so sure) I suggested you spend a little time researching, although you do seem to have a decent understanding of the process. Keep digging around, just try more recent research. Last couple of years otta do it.
Remember about 10 years ago or so, medical science didn't think the brain could rebuild/repair cells. Then along comes neural plasticity, and remapping. Oh and while you're at it you might look into personality traits and how those become expressed from the genetic code hereditarily .
On a side note, I seem to remember you commenting to another POFer about people disagreeing with you about something that you said you were an authority on. Seems you might be an authority on quite a few subjects.
Did it ever occur to you that it might be your approach? You could learn a little tact there my friend.
A dubious assumption indeed! What evidence do you have to support this proposition?
interesting article of the supposed "gay gene"
discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/born-gay
This is interesting in that recently, there has been research into the possiblity of there being a gay gene. The identification of a supposed "gay gene" would only have been found in a gay person. What would cause this specific gene to be expressed? (Feel free to chime in rhino, as if you needed an invite) In order for a gene to be expressed it would require a specific neural - chemical response.
How does this happen and what initiates the neural - chemcal response?
Knowing what initiates the neural chemical response is the key.
Of course that can lead into yet another discussion (well, for some, arguments for others)
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/13/2008 4:13:31 AM |
On a side note, I seem to remember you commenting to another POFer about people disagreeing with you about something that you said you were an authority on. Seems you might be an authority on quite a few subjects.
Actually, molecular genetics/biochemistry would be the fields in question. I'm published in those fields, are you? It sounds to me like you've mucked together a little knowledge on a bunch of loosely-related topics, and come to some completely unsubstantiated conclusions.
Also, the person claiming a paradigm shift is usually the one who provides the sources, references, or links to support their claim. It's simply poor form to say, "well, go do the research, I mean, it's only 500,000 pages of possibly relevant journals you'd have to go through." Presumably, you've already got a pretty good idea of the papers and other resources you'd use to support your position, no?  | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/13/2008 10:19:39 AM | Also, the person claiming a paradigm shift is usually the one who provides the sources, references, or links to support their claim.
If you like your information spoon fed like the masses. Which seems to be the case.
I thought you were an expert on the Yonaguni formation, my goodness you wear many hats.
Yes, I did have to check your history, which unsurprisingly is filled with conflict. Alas I digress
So back to the subject at hand. Did you look into genetic recoding? How about genetic engineering?
Presumably, you've already got a pretty good idea of the papers and other resources you'd use to support your position
In fact I do, but if you recall, you disagreed with my statement so in truth the onus falls on you to prove it otherwise.
Unless you are presuming a stance of conventional wisdom perchance?
In your history of antagonism I'm sure you've found that leaning becomes knowledge through application and from knowledge one would hope to become wise through the experience of knowledge. So perhaps you would understand why I feel you should broaden your knowledge base by reading something on your own.
Good luck with that rhino. | |
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vedin
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Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 68 | |
| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/13/2008 9:59:18 PM |
A gay person that I used to work with felt that way and that’s just one example and they didn't find it offensive, because they agreed that they felt like it was some sort of mental disorder that they had to live with just like any other mental disorder that millions of other people have to live with daily.
I see, and we are supposed to take your word on this.
And if it were true, I feel really sorry for your friend if he feels that way about himself.
Why because there is nothing wrong with him in the first place. | |
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vedin
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Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 69 | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/13/2008 10:36:24 PM |
In other words, you are unable to provide us with hard evidence that supports your dubious assumption that: ‘Being gay is a personal choice’.
It is not that I am unable to provide information. I would rather hope that you might figure this out on your own. Would you rather be spoon feed like some other POFer's on this site or would you like to find the information on your own, understand it on your own and gain the knowledge on your own.
What initiates a neural - chemical response?
This is simple, but most would rather argue for their limitations than take the bull by the horns and find the information themselves.
Many want proof, yet are afraid to speak their mind, other than to say "dubious assumption."
And what might your opinion be on the subject other than contestation? Do you even know what you contest?
Use the brain you were born with.
The abomination of mankind isn't that we are ignorant it is rather that we are arrogant to what we think we know and apathetic to our own greatness. | |
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vedin
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Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 71 | |
| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/14/2008 12:03:53 AM |
It is not that I am unable to provide information. I would rather hope that you might figure this out on your own. Would you rather be spoon feed like some other POFer's on this site or would you like to find the information on your own, understand it on your own and gain the knowledge on your own.
In other words, you are unable to provide us with hard evidence that supports your dubious assumption that: ‘Being gay is a personal choice’.
Your attempt to patronise me, is a poor disguise for your inability to substantiate your proposal.
You may have the last word! | |
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Qamila
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Joined: 2/26/2008
Msg: 72 | |
| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/14/2008 12:36:59 AM | "If it is caused by genetic reasons , do you think that it is a disorder?"
I view homosexuality just as I do heterosexuality. Besides, it's always existed. Would you call heterosexuality a disorder? Do you think heterosexuality is genetic or learned?
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vedin
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Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 73 | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/14/2008 9:22:36 AM |
You may have the last word!
This is not about having the last word Vedin, this is about complacency, and apathy toward our own education.
Is the information out there? You betcha. And I've had to do the leg work myself. But to show the information without first laying the ground work of understanding is frutile and a waste of time.
When I ask, What initiates a neural chemical respone? That is a poignant question.
If we understand what initiates a neural chemical response then we can have discourse because we are talking about form and function of not only the human body and brain but the human experience as well.
The question on the table is, "gay - genetic or social"
In order to defend my position I would hope to find common ground in understanding. Without this all that will happen is a bunch of chest beating and ignorance.
If we understand what CAUSES gene expression then we can also begin to understand why and how there is confusion as to whether this is a "genetic" or "social" (choice) issue.
If being gay is genetic, the assumption is that there are specific markers (genetic expressions) that would indicate these genes are only expressed in people who are gay.
In order for a specific gene expression to occur, what is required is a specific neural - chemical response. So when asking, What initiates a neural chemical response? I hope to have understanding in the function of the brain. If we don't understand brain function what is the point of throwing out several journal articles, which won't be read and won't be understood even if they were.
To the point of being redundant; What initiates a neural chemical response?
If you know the answer, then you might begin to understand where I am coming from. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/14/2008 9:31:44 AM | gayness has been correlated to mother having had previous male offspring (hormonal/immune response effect in womb effecting later male fetus). more likely to be gay if youve got an older brother, and even more so if youve got two. could be a genetic link as well though.
anecdotally, rare cases of accidentally sex changed (penis removed) boys, raised as girls still develop into 'macho' males that are attracted to females. so, its unlikly social.
as a side issue, its therefore no 'sin', as theres no choice in the matter of sexuality (like sin exists anyway). so up yours gotbots and bigots (er, not that you can help your predisposition to being a t*s**r or deluded). | |
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