| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/14/2008 11:05:36 PM |
I thought you were an expert on the Yonaguni formation, my goodness you wear many hats.
I never claimed special knowledge or training with regards to Yonaguni, and I provided sources for all my statements and claims. Perhaps you're confusing my defense of the stonemason's opinion on rock fracture patterns with a claim of special knowledge on my own part? Not the best example of reading comprehension, if that's the case.
Yes, I did have to check your history, which unsurprisingly is filled with conflict.
The ad hominem is, of course, off-base, but hardly surprising. I do, in fact, tend to argue with those who make specious claims based on little or no information and start screaming "paradigm" and "bias" and "cover-up" when confronted with fact. I just can't stand the kind of half-baked pseudo-science that gets thrown around as somehow "better" by those with just barely enough knowledge in the field to be dangerous to themselves and others. Or, of course, those with no knowledge whatsoever, who are simply parroting what they read on some counter-science-culture website. I'm sure you wish I didn't argue with such folk, as you seem hell-bent on joining their ranks, and it's terribly emotionally scarring to have your pet theories publicly destroyed for the horse crap they are.
Now, on to discussions and debates: It is customary for the person presenting a new argument to provide some sort of supporting documentation, which the others in the discussion read and digest. Then, anyone who requires clarification will ask for further information, and those providing counter-arguments will state them and provide supporting documentation for THEIR positions.
It's weak and trollish to simply make a grandiose statement with claims of significant "special knowledge" and then refuse to provide supporting documentation AND demand that anyone disagreeing with you provide the exact sort of documentation you refuse to provide. The only possible explanation is the desire to provoke an argument... well, that's not precisely true, another explanation would be possessing the intellectual and emotional development of a 3rd-grader.  (or posting while drunk, of course) | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/15/2008 10:03:34 AM |
Being gay is a personal choice, that choice will determine the genetic expression, which is then observable in the genetic code, but not until the choice is made.
Where are you getting this from? Seriously, you need to learn a bit more about genetics. Genes do not change like this.
The expresion of a gene may change, but the gene is the same, it has just been turned on or off by conditions within the cell. Genes are not affected in anyway by chices amde, concious or not.
The case is that there is no definatively gay gene. So far we have evidence that homosexualtiy is congenital, but none that it is genetic. Everything else is curently theory (or even SWAG) as there are no answers as of yet. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/15/2008 12:38:55 PM | Its genetic.
Oh - too think that you could wish your genes to be something else is silly. Please stop watching Star Trek - there is no such thing as a changeling. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/15/2008 3:23:24 PM | Everything else is curently theory - - -The case is that there is no definatively gay gene.
Thank you bright, my sentiments exactly, but to begin a discussion we must have common ground. And that is what I am striving for. My error is that I have presented to large of a leap for most to accept.
I agree the expression is what changes and have said this all along. We come in with a preprogramed "templete" of expression that is modified through out our life.
So the question is how is this modification done? Why are some gene's expressed and others not?
Gene expression is initiated by a specific neural-chemical response.
So in an attempt to find common ground I ask,
What initiates this neural-chemical response? What causes the specific neural-chemical response?
Understanding brain function is paramount to this discussion.
That is the point.
By understanding this we can then discuss the validity of choice or genetics or the possibility that they are both. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/15/2008 3:48:59 PM | i didnt read threw all the posts, i read some of the more scientifical analysis of being gay
being gay in my opinion is both genetic and choice...
most homosexuals claim that scientific studies have shown that there is a biological basis for homosexuality.
Three main studies are cited by “gay rights” activists in support of their argument Hamer's X-chromosome research, LeVay's study of the hypothalamus, and Bailey and Pillard's study of identical twins who were homosexuals
scientific approach shows, there is often genetic differences in straight people of said gender and gays of said gender, but its not all about genetics, a man can still be attracted to a woman no matter if they are gay or not (which people would argue makes the bi) i would say the most obvious theory is, say a gay man for example, is genetically introduced as a female, but formed as a man, giving their thoughts and needs more of the female nature rather than male, often do many guys tho, think to themself, i wish i had a body like *insert guys name* wouldnt you call that a homo-erotic nature?
wouldnt that be considered fawning over another guy in an indirect nature? i would say yes, but thats up for discussion, a gay man can choose to pursue a path of male to male relationships, often do they then there on the cases of gay natured males pursuing the path of a straight normal life to appease people...
then there are those who are considered bi-sexual from the fact they have been attracted to atleast 1 female in their life sexually, in my opinion, there is no line between gay and straight symbolizing a bi-sexual nature, its just a label such as emo/goth/punk take your pick, for people who dont want to be considered full fledged homo, but want to retain their own happiness as attracted to both sexes, i say if a man is attracted sexually to another man reguardless of his attraction to a woman/women because he has homo-erotic fantasies, i apologize for the novel but its to throw support towards my own analysis, this theory as you could put it show support towards both choice and genetic natures making up why a person is gay...
its neither true nor false, a gay man doesnt always know why he is gay, just that being so makes him the happiest, but this opinion is up for arguement and i welcome it, no theory is worth anything if its not opposed | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/15/2008 4:47:04 PM | I see, and we are supposed to take your word on this.
I really don't care if you do or not. The diff between you and I is that I don't see what I want to see and if I don't agree with it , then it must be totally BS, because you seem to have this i'm always right attitude regardless. You won't contiplate anything unless it fits your obstructive point of view. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/16/2008 11:52:11 PM | | Why would anybody care? If you consider this conundrum for anything more than ten minutes, you are then not gay. Live on. Talk to me when you are sixty.Yep. Who you bed down with it is ultimately boring. Very much really is. Do you want a medal? You want your same sex. So be it. Do not burden any and all with your choice. You are not special. Ever. You suffer? So do heterosexuals. Plenty. Suffer along. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/17/2008 1:38:21 AM | I strongly believe it's genetic. I came to this conclusion first after witnessing a family member coming out. I was around him, on and off, from birth to his current age. We got along really well, still do. Well after finding out he was gay, I began to think about if it was genetic or a phase. Because he was going through a goth phase. During this research I was also confronted by my christian beliefs.
That can be a debilitating factor when talking about this kind of thing and it can discourage you to seek understanding about it, which is what we need. That being said I decided to confront my family about it in such a way that they (I hope) won't suspect he's gay but get their take on it. Not to my surprise it was fire a brim stone. I knew I was in a losing battle trying that way so I went the logical route. My logic is very simple: Find truth.
So I looked at his family's makeup:
1) The father had strong feminine characteristics.
2) The mother was the headstrong dominant type
3) His half(different moms) brother is gay
Made me wonder, if the father passes the gene and carries the code for a feminine brain makeup, not fully,but with some male aspects including deciding the sex and the mother's genes fill in the missing gap maybe including sexual preference? Now I think what's key here is understanding that we can see or hear behavior perceived as initially being gay. But come to find out the person isn't gay they just talk a little girlie or like flamboyant cloths. Men even had the "metrosexual" phase. Now using logic we can conclude that this is indeed inherited genetically because he has had a stable life and a loving family (as much to normal as you can get suburbs and all).
I would at this point like to make an interjection about how I found an answer that affirmed my faith. So if you don't want to read it you can comment on the things I said above. Because reading some of the comments I feel it's necessary to try to represent accurately the views of the christian belief. That will hurt more christian than it will sinners but I believe it to be truth. (Something we're short on these days)
"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." -John 15:12
This isn't just a commandment it's the second most important commandment. Only preceded by Love the Lord first (paraphrasing). Now I realize I may be "casting pearls before swine" or more accurately put, trying to show something that no one can perceive, but I hope that if you do read this and it does provoke you or make you think that you will keep searching until you're satisfied with an answer.
Well I hope my insight helped in both explaining my stance about homosexuality being genetic and clarifying God's word on the issue. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/17/2008 4:04:20 AM | I don't know if my answer fits the question, but I don't think it matters whether or not being gay is controlled by factors outside one's control, like genetics, or if it's a personal choice. I think either way it's none of anyone else's business whether or not someone is gay, straight, bi, or whatever. What consenting adults do amongst themselves within the privacy of their own space is their business and I don't think it's right to discriminate against them for their sexual orientation. Just my opinion.  | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/17/2008 10:23:20 AM |
I don't know if my answer fits the question
Yeah, but in the greater scheme, it is the most poignant. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/17/2008 10:30:04 AM | It can be influenced by both genetics and environment; a perfect questions would be, how is sexual attraction decided?
Sexual attraction is decided by physical attraction, tone of voice and smell, therefore you apply this to a gay man or woman and they are reacting on their biolgical nature. Now attraction can be decided by some many factors religion, culture and even upbringing so it really depends but those are just the basics. | |
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ngat73
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Joined: 6/10/2007
Msg: 87 | |
| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/18/2008 11:12:54 AM | I totally, almost 100%, believe it is nurture based on my observations. And, I am no gay basher although I no longer hang out with Catty Gay Men. However, one of my best friends is gay. We've had numerous discussions about this and its always been inconclusive, but this is what I sincerely believe.  | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/30/2008 7:43:23 AM | | This is more of a comment than anything else. All you gays out there, be as gay as your little gay hearts desire! I love your gay company! And I salute you! | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/30/2008 7:54:50 AM | | Homophobia is hating people because of how they are born. This makes it a form of racism, and thus morally reprehensible. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/30/2008 8:58:11 AM | Homophobia is hating people because of behaviors they are assumed to be practicing (for the targeted individual might or might not identify themselves as gay and they might or might not be having homosexual sex).
Though I agree with you have it is not cool to be a homophobe, only because consensual homosexual sex hurts none.
If we accept that people are born gay or straight then we might have to accept that people are born with any kind of fetish (are pedophiles born that way... if so is it right to lock them up?)
I prefer to identify the act and not the person. Identities are always in motion. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/30/2008 9:04:40 AM | Personnally, I have a theory of what causes homosexuality but I'm not a scientist.....Just 'O' level biology & a bit of life experience.
Some argue that sexuality is determined by our genes but if that were the case then homosexuality would have probably evolved out of the human genome by now.
Although the sex of a fetus is determined by XX or XY chromosomes the sexuality is influenced by the amount of estrogen, progesterone, or testosterone circulating within the maternal environment.
These hormones need raw materials to be produced and have to be balanced just right so homosexuality might simply be determined by a mother not ingesting the right raw materials to match the sex of the baby with it's sexuality in later life.
IE. Too much testosterone produced by the mother whilst carrying a female would lead to a masculine sexuality......lesbian
Likewise, not enough androgens to cancel out the estrogen and progesterone being produced by its mother whist carrying a male would lead to a feminine sexuality.....homosexual............And all the levels in between.
So basically, you're not just what you eat.....You're what you're mother ate while preggers too. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/31/2008 1:20:43 AM |
Being gay is a personal choice
Silliest thing I ever heard. I'm straight, and I never chose it. There was never a day when I went "hmm, shall I become straight or gay? Decisions decisions! I think I'll be straight."
Absolute nonsense. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/31/2008 7:17:26 AM |  @ CbrBass
What's the survival advantage (living well and producing healthy offspring)
Hmmm. Lessee. Humans survive not because of physical superiority but because of their mental abilities. We have no claws or fangs - all we got is brains. Being gay does not preclude having a good brain. Nor does being barren, nor even, now, spending a lifetime in a wheelchair a la Dr. Hawking. 'Survival of the fittest' refers to species - our particular species requires highly developed brains to survive. The knowledge from all brains, even those of non-procreative humans, can help to further our species. And now, due to that very ingenuity, we are able to assist homosexuals who wish to procreate so we continue to enhance our ability to create and maintain humans with brains.
Some argue that sexuality is determined by our genes but if that were the case then homosexuality would have probably evolved out of the human genome by now.
That makes no sense.
@Bright1Raziel - spell check is your friend.
so homosexuality might simply be determined by a mother not ingesting the right raw materials to match the sex of the baby with it's sexuality in later life.
Wow. Where do people come up with these things? 
How come nobody's mentioned Masters & Johnson and the Kinsey Scale?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports#Sexual_orientation
They concluded that the majority of people lay on a continuum between straight and gay and that a minority of people were exclusively one or the other. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/31/2008 10:33:11 AM | Yeah but you never chose to be more attracted to brunettes than blondes. So is your attraction to brunettes a choice or a genetic imperative?
I like carrots but I don't like turnips. Is that a personal choice or genetics at work? I like Mozart but not Britney Spears... personal choice? Genetics? a mixture of the two?
More and more (though I loathe to admit it) I believe that genetics plays a large role in the equation. This is dangerous for I believe that it could eventually lead to people wanting to abort their 'high-chance of being gay' fetuses. Dangerous because I believe that gays provide crucial social input (especially in the arts, philosophy and politics). | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/31/2008 12:39:22 PM |
@Bright1Raziel - spell check is your friend.
Obviously spellcheck and I are not freinds. I'm far to lazy to bother ussing spellcheck in a forum that is so inconsequential.
Wow. Where do people come up with these things?
Actually he is quite correct in a large part of what he sais. Sexuality is known to be affected by levels of horemones in the brain. And the levels of horemoanes created can be determined by the avaliabilty of the resurces necicery to create them.
So it is entierly posible that what the mother eats has a degree of effect on the psyche of the developing fetus. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/31/2008 1:44:53 PM | What matters is that we can read the post, spelling is inconsequential.
I suppose that chaos theory could be applied to sexuality... a butterfly in Mexico cause me to be straight. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/31/2008 2:38:01 PM | Obviously spellcheck and I are not freinds. I'm far to lazy to bother ussing spellcheck in a forum that is so inconsequential.
I agree with this statement - And yet here we are. Again - still
Homophobia is hating people because of how they are born. This makes it a form of racism, and thus morally reprehensible.
No argument here Art, just making a point.
From this statement you would say that “being gay” is genetic then.
Our DNA provides for an enormous variation of genetic expression. Correct?
Do we all agree that we inherent genetic traits from our parents?
Do we all agree that our genetic template (What we acquire inherently) is modified throughout our lives? Modified = Genes expressed that were not expressed when we were born.
Do we pass this modified genetic expression to our offspring?
What causes genes to be expressed?
What is required for gene expression to occur?
So it is entierly posible that what the mother eats has a degree of effect on the psyche of the developing fetus
So what you are saying is that what we eat changes our neural chemistry?
What else causes a change in our nerual chemistry? | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/31/2008 5:49:51 PM | IMHO, we aren't born gay, straight or bi.
Who among us had any sexual desire at birth? Sure most of played doctor at an early age, but that's curiousity, not sexuality.
Not until puberty did most of us discover the miracles of hand lotion and shower faucets because that's when biology flips the switch that will eventually lead us down the path to many embarassing situations and occasional offspring.
I totally disagree with the arguement that we are born gay or straight. We just aren't that simple. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 12/31/2008 6:21:39 PM |
IMHO, we aren't born gay, straight or bi.
Who among us had any sexual desire at birth?
Precisely, yet genes may express within specific timelines of physiological and psychological development. | |
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| being gay - genetic or social
Posted: 1/1/2009 12:59:18 AM | There are few parents who haven't tales about their little kids diddling themselves. Of course we don't have it 'at birth' but it doesn't take too long to begin. I had crushes from about the age of five onward - always on men. I've never been attracted to a female but I know there are lots of women who have been.
Someone I know only realized he was gay when he started figuring out that photos of men turned him on. He didn't choose that any more than I chose to be attracted to men. It is innate to both of us. And science has come up with more proofs; genes may be a determinant but not the only one. However things like relative finger length (demonstrated to be found in lesbian women) have to be genetic. And nobody's going to come up with proof that eating more hamburgers will shrink the longer finger and equalize the fingers and at the same time turn the person straight 
Certainly, there's plasticity and certainly there's some modification of genes but doubtless some genes are resistant to modification (you gonna grow yourself another eye maybe? ) and I imagine plasticity will stretch only so far. | |
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