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Posted: 12/28/2005 1:02:16 AM |
In modern times LaVey founded the Church of Satan, in which Satan is no more than a symbol for ego gratification. (Count Ibli)
OK, Blackskirt. Any argument with Count Ibli's statement above?
If not:
Satan = ego gratification.
Therefore,
the Church of Satan = the Church of Ego Gratification.
Now, where in the world would a guy get the idea that ego gratification is a guiding principle for members of a church named the church of ego gratification? Silly me.
If Count Ibli is wrong, what exactly does "Satan" mean? What exactly does the Church of Satan stand for -- if not "ego gratification"? We know that the Church of Jesus Christ, for instance, is meant for people who wish to follow Jesus Christ. Buddhists claim to follow the teachings of Buddha. Who is Satan? What does Satan stand for?
I would fit under LaVeyian as the the basic rules are the ones I agree with, but that's not to say I agree with all the Doctor has said.
It's good to know that the Doctor hasn't got you totally under his spell yet, Blackskirt!
No, I don't believe in the concept of evil.
It would depend on what you mean by "right and wrong".
Moral principles. Let's take murder for instance -- is it wrong to murder someone? Saying something is evil is really just another way of saying it's morally wrong. Murder of course might be considered a grave evil while stealing a chocolate bar would be a minor evil -- unless of course the shopkeeper found that chocolate bar a burden and was crying out to be relieved of it! Sorry, couldn't resist that, darlin'!
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Posted: 12/28/2005 3:41:23 PM | Artandsoul:
To help you clear things up here are the Nine Satanic Statements
1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!
and the 11 rules of the earth
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him. | |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 4:20:26 PM | | ^^^ more humanistic than satanist................. | |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 4:46:28 PM | Thanks, Taurus, for the information on the "principles" of Satanism (message 27).
Some of the statements are reasonable enough and more or less common sense, eg, "Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked" and "Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them."
Much of it is just a statement of the principles that many in this world actually live by regardless of what they may profess. I suppose that's to be expected given that Satan is called the "prince of this world" in the Bible. I suppose also that many find LaVey's willingness to come out and actually state these principles so baldly as he does to be refreshingly candid and that this -- in part at least -- explains the appeal of his doctrine. Another appealing feature of this kind of teaching might be that it does essentially give people the green light to "indulge" their appetites of various kinds. People have been "indulging" since the dawn of time with or without LaVey and his ilk. We all know the problems it often leads to. "Indulgence" as opposed to "abstinence" -- what causes more problems, indulging in alcohol or abstaining from it? On the other hand, I will admit that there are some people who should take a drink once in a while and loosen up LOL!
One can scarcely argue with the statement that man is another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who has become the most vicious animal of all! But is man JUST another animal? I would say not. Because we have the CAPACITY for “divine spiritual and intellectual development", we do have the potential to be much more than that -- for the same reason, in fact, that we have so often become the most vicious animals of all -- simply put, because we can! Isn't that what people like Jesus have tried to get us to do, ie, develop spiritually so that we rise above the level of animals living by the "law of the jungle"? Does this make Him another "psychic vampire"? If so, we could use a few more such "vampires"!
I can appreciate the humor of the statement that "Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!" Nevertheless, I'm glad that there are churches around, flawed as they and those who attend them may be, that at least attempt to combat the natural selfishness of human beings and hopefully, at their best, help us achieve a higher level of being. God only knows we have seen for long enough what living by the principles of "Satan" leads to.
I'll have more to say on this later. Thanks for the info. Know your enemy, as they say, if you hope to defeat him. As far as I can see, Satanism is just another example of the nihilistic, egocentric and anarchic thinking that can only lead the entire planet into further chaos than we already find ourselves in. | |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 7:30:57 AM | Another appealing feature of this kind of teaching might be that it does essentially give people the green light to "indulge" their appetites of various kinds. People have been "indulging" since the dawn of time with or without LaVey and his ilk. We all know the problems it often leads to. "Indulgence" as opposed to "abstinence" -- what causes more problems, indulging in alcohol or abstaining from it? On the other hand, I will admit that there are some people who should take a drink once in a while and loosen up LOL!
One can scarcely argue with the statement that man is another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who has become the most vicious animal of all! But is man JUST another animal? I would say not. Because we have the CAPACITY for “divine spiritual and intellectual development", we do have the potential to be much more than that -- for the same reason, in fact, that we have so often become the most vicious animals of all -- simply put, because we can! Isn't that what people like Jesus have tried to get us to do, ie, develop spiritually so that we rise above the level of animals living by the "law of the jungle"? Does this make Him another "psychic vampire"?
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LaVey expounded on this in the Satanic Bible.He clearly points out the difference between an "Indulgence"(choice) and "compulsion"(no choice)and cites more about one's repsonisibilities concerning their actions in such indugences.
He also states concering the "spiritual" development has lead to the formation of organized religion,which he states has been man's downfall.He cites religious wars and differences,the Dark Ages with the Inquisition and the anti scientific beliefs of the religious.He touches on Christ's philosophies of turning the other cheek and such and equates it with weakness.
You're right about the belief not being much different from other nihlistic,humanistic beliefs.He states that Satanism fills the void between psychology and science with it's rituals and he expounds on what he calls,"the intellectual decompression chamber".
Lavey died back in 1997.His Church of Satan was taken over by his girlfriend,Blache Barton,much to his youngest daughter,Zeena's dismay.In 1990 Zeena renounced her father and joined rival organization,The Temple of Set founded by ex CoS member and former Army psyops intellegence officer,Micheal Aquino. | |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 10:57:21 AM |
Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
What are the "so called sins" that lead to "gratification"? Would murder be among them, for instance? Is the answer to that question found in these "Laws of the Jungle"?
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
Is this what LaVey and his "disciples" consider "undefiled wisdom"? | |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:45:06 PM | What are the "so called sins" that lead to "gratification"? Would murder be among them, for instance? Is the answer to that question found in these "Laws of the Jungle"?
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
Is this what LaVey and his "disciples" consider "undefiled wisdom"?
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Well it's been a long time since I've read his material but the sins he speaks of are the seven deadly ones the Catholic church labelled as such.His argument goes something like this:Take gluttony for example,it simply means eating more than is necessary to keep you alive.If you eat to the point of obesity,another sin,pride will lead you to diet and exercise your way to a better appearance.Lavey maintains that each of these "sins" are necessary to the human condition.Lust insures the propagtion of the species,anger insures self defence and preservation,greed motivates progress.
He expounds more on undefiled wisdom in the SB,he touches on how religious dogma has delayed the progress of science.
He is very big on an eye for an eye,but he is also very quick to say he doesn't advocate breaking the law.He advocates "destroying" an enemy through a destruction ritual or hex.
I hope that clears it up. | |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 7:32:32 PM | the sins he speaks of are the seven deadly ones the Catholic church labelled as such.His argument goes something like this:Take gluttony for example,it simply means eating more than is necessary to keep you alive.If you eat to the point of obesity,another sin,pride will lead you to diet and exercise your way to a better appearance.Lavey maintains that each of these "sins" are necessary to the human condition.Lust insures the propagtion of the species,anger insures self defence and preservation,greed motivates progress.
He seems to be taking huge liberties with the position of the Church to make a case against them, Taurus. I can't say I'm surprised. It's like knocking the hell out of a "straw man" argument, ie, put words in your opponent's mouth, ascribe to him a nonsensical position that he never really took and then make yourself look clever and your opponent foolish by knocking the stuffing out of the defenceless "straw man" that you yourself set up. Gluttony is certainly a little more drastic than merely "eating more than is necessary to keep one alive". Worse still, he is suggesting that we need to adopt one sin to counteract the effects of the other. If you weren't a glutton and never ate so much that you became obese, ie, avoided the first sin, you would hardly need the second sin, vanity, to fix the problem. Also, church doctrine certainly makes a distinction between various types of anger, ie, there is "righteous anger" and "unrighteous anger". Even Jesus got angry at times. Under the category of lust as well, the propagation of the species is hardly threatened by church doctrine that sanctions sexual relations between married persons and does not identify that as "lust". If I had time I could go on... but the point is that LaVey hardly comes across as a deep thinker in the arguments posted above. Where's Blackskirt to defend her beliefs when you need her?
Catch ya later, my friend. | |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 7:46:26 PM | | Just passing by with a point of information regarding BlackskirtGirl: "He's a man, baby!" --Austin Powers | |
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Posted: 12/30/2005 2:47:45 AM | Argghhh! Quite the little bomb you just dropped on your fly-by, Flyguy. I checked back through the posts and see that I called him "darlin'"! No offense, Blackskirt, I'm sure you're a charming fellow -- but where's the retract button when you need it LOL?
He expounds more on undefiled wisdom in the SB,he touches on how religious dogma has delayed the progress of science.
He is very big on an eye for an eye,but he is also very quick to say he doesn't advocate breaking the law.He advocates "destroying" an enemy through a destruction ritual or hex.
I hope that clears it up.
Taurus, thanks but it's as clear as mud now! I thought he was against "superstition". I'm not sure "science" would think his talk of "hexes" was necessarily progress. They might have been better off with the Church against them. But once again, talk of "destroying" your enemies is just another example of Satanism in essence following the "wisdom of the world". Even taking the name "Church of Satan" is an indication that perhaps LaVey was truly motivated by some kind of hatred of Christianity -- as if to say that his "church" stood for everything that the Christian Church stood against. Why else would he take such a name? | |
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Posted: 12/30/2005 6:52:55 AM | I'm not sure "science" would think his talk of "hexes" was necessarily progress. They might have been better off with the Church against them. But once again, talk of "destroying" your enemies is just another example of Satanism in essence following the "wisdom of the world". Even taking the name "Church of Satan" is an indication that perhaps LaVey was truly motivated by some kind of hatred of Christianity -- as if to say that his "church" stood for everything that the Christian Church stood against. Why else would he take such a name?
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LaVey believed that ritual magick (note the difference in spelling,that is with a "k")was fueld by emotionally charged energy.That by expending it in a ritual,it could be directed to perform an act within the practicner's will.Certainly not scientific,but not unlike the methodology practiced by Wiccans and Pagans.In refference to being anti superstitious,he believed that the Satanist was practicing intellectual decompression and fullfilling a psychological need that is found in all religions.He felt his to be superior as he wrote about how the Satanist KNOWS that he is practicing a planned form of"self deciet",that is,he knows the names he calls on are mythological and doesn't decieve himself into believing that there is an actual diety that cares.
Lavey originally started his organization as a discussion group called the Magic Circle.He collected writings from various sources inluding Ragnar Redbeard's "Might is Right"(the first chapters of the SB are plagarized from Might word for word),Ayn Rand and other sources.A friend suggested he call it a "church" to draw media attention and solidify an income from it.This he did,and in the 60's made a media splash by performing the first Satanic weddings and a Satanic funeral with full cooperation from the US Navy.
Such notable followers were filmmaker Kenneth Anger,Jayne Mansfield and Sammy Davis Jr.
Basically,and even by his own admission,Lavey was a carnival huckster and junkyard intellectual.Still,makes for a fascinating story.
Personally I agree with portions of the "philosophy",life just works better for me believing in myself vs. an externalized anthroporphic parent figure.One thing is refreshing in Satanism.There are no hypocrites and no Satanist ever knocked on my door at 7AM on a Saturday morning to try to convert me.
Here are some links if you're interested
churchofsatan.com Official site of the CoS
Xepera.com (I think that's it,just google Temple of Set if that's not it.):These folks worship a literal diety,the Egyptian god,Set.They're a splinter from the CoS
Joyofsatan.com Interesting group here,call themselves "Spiritual Satanists".They believe Satan to be the true creator and the mix in alot of science fiction type mythos,i.e.Man was genetically created for slave labor with Jehovah being the evil one wanting to enslave us,Satan being the one who wants to liberate man.
It truly takes all kinds to make a world,doesn't it? | |
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Posted: 12/30/2005 7:15:50 PM |
no Satanist ever knocked on my door at 7AM on a Saturday morning to try to convert me.
Of course not, Taurus. They don't give a d*mn about you. There's the crucial difference. As irritating as the knock on your door may be, you have to give those people some credit for having the courage -- and the dedication to actually putting their beliefs into practice -- to knock on your door. Their purpose is to help "save" a guy like you. A Satanist could hardly be expected to care about the salvation or spiritual wellbeing of a stranger. Imagine how uncomfortable many of those door knockers must feel as they attempt to do what they see as their duty. Whether I agree with their particular belief system -- and usually I don't -- I do admire their courage and dedication. | |
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Posted: 12/30/2005 7:50:44 PM | Satanism is basically worship of negativity. It's powerless - as impotent as the Christian's devil. Think about it... Goodness is expansive. Help somebody out and your good action instantly effects someone else in a good way, plus you feel good, and who knows how many others might benifit from one good action. Negativity is restrictive. I could have the most negative, miserable and hateful neighbor. His self loathing misery starts and stops with him. It's self consuming. Evil begets evil. Bad things happen as a part of our reality. But "evil" is man made. The "Devil" is a joke.
Hun, when you got your piercings, etc... you did that to spite ignorant, dogmatic, and conventional thinkers. Why start worrying about them now?
Just my opinion. Don't worry... I hear God's a lot less critical than people are. | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 7:34:03 AM | Satanism is basically worship of negativity.
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Maybe.But you have to have people who gravitate toward this to balance the rest of society out.Yin/Yang,light/darkness.It all comes out in the wash. | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 11:51:17 AM | Ok, I'm making my come-back in the forums.
Who missed me? lol
Long story made short....
Satanism is not evil. Satanism has nothing to do with Christianity or Paganism. (unless of course you view paganism as being anything non-christian in which case it is a subset of such)
From those satanists I've befriended, it is merely about acting in ones own interest instead of acting in the interests of others. Making yourself number one, taking care of yourself prior to taking care of others. Admittedly these friends have said "And because of this I will never have children, and I will always have problems in relationships"
Which is a fair statement because parents should take their children's interests and needs ahead of their own...that whole caring for one who cannot care for themselves thing.
Not evil...Not blasphemous...just what it is. A philosophy. | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 1:42:24 PM | Satanism is not evil......Not blasphemous...just what it is. A philosophy.
Lady-fair, I never knew you to miss you, but welcome back in any case.
Re your last post: I suppose it depends on what one's definition of "evil" is. Or do you even believe that evil exists? If so, what to you constitutes evil? Check back on the information posted by Taurus re the Satanist philosophy.
Granted, we all have to take care of ourselves because noone else will if we don't -- except, possibly, the sincere adherents of other philosophies such as Christianity who do believe in brotherly love and compassion for others who can't look after themselves. On the other hand, "looking after number one" is undoubtedly the cause of most of the "evil" that happens in this world. Also, many would say that a philosophy which teaches principles such as "if someone bothers you, destroy him" and glorifies such qualities as greed definitely qualifies as being on the evil side. The Nazis believed in "looking after number one" and exercised their greed for "lebensraum" (living space) for the so called master race by invading other countries and destroying any who opposed them. They didn't call themselves "Satanists" but seemed to be following a similar philosophy. Would you call their philosophy "evil"? Is there such a thing as an "evil philosophy" in your opinion? | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 1:54:59 PM |
But you have to have people who gravitate toward this to balance the rest of society out.Yin/Yang,light/darkness.It all comes out in the wash.
Taurus, my friend, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that selfishness/unselfishness or good/evil are somehow equally beneficial, morally neutral "balancing principles" of society? If so, it's a rather unfortunate use of the terms "Yin and Yang" that I don't think the Chinese philosophers who first expounded on those principles would be too pleased with. | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 2:18:26 PM | The Nazis believed in "looking after number one" and exercised their greed for "lebensraum" (living space) ..
Thats interesting Art, I guess the cause of the war was Germany was overkrauted, hence the need for living space!! | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 3:54:25 PM |
Thats interesting Art, I guess the cause of the war was Germany was overkrauted, hence the need for living space!!
That's hilarious, Never, thanks for the laugh! I hope that our German friends do not take offence.
It does bring up another apparent point of similarity between Satanist and Nazi philosophy: The Nazis didn't really think that they were "overkrauted", of course -- the more Germans the better, they thought. To make room for more of them, in fact, they tried to eliminate the Jews. Other races they were kinder to and merely sought to enslave. As a "good Satanist" might say, "you gotta look after yourself" and "if someone bothers you, destroy him". Evidently, the Jews in their midst were quite a bother to them. Not only did they try to get rid of the Jews in Germany, the Nazi "final solution" threatened to eliminate them in the rest of the world too. Of course, the Nazis did think that the rest of the world was rightfully theirs so I guess it made sense to them. Could any Satanist true believer condemn them? "Greed is good", after all. Isn't it? Self indulgence and the act of destroying those who bother you or get in your way -- these are laudable examples of practising "undefiled wisdom". Aren't they?
Nice "philosophy". We really need more such "philosophy" in the world today, don't we?  | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 4:16:08 PM | | should I feel dumb for not getting the meaning of 'overkrauted' ... | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 4:41:20 PM | Lady-fair, once again with apologies to any of our fine German friends and not wishing to cause them any offence, "krauts" is slang for "Germans" who eat their share of sauerkraut. (Actually I love it too along with rouladen, frankfurters and German beer.) The Nazis sought to expand their empire in search of "lebensraum" or "living space" for Germans. Hence, Never's joke, were they overcrowded or "overkrauted"?
Please -- I hope noone jumps in here and starts calling us "racists"! | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 4:49:17 PM | artandsoul,
While I'm sure you could probably find people who engage in all sorts of violent and dispicable acts taking Satanic philosophy to the extreme, most Satanists espouse and champion a sense of balance and discipline.They espouse a belief in fierce independence and total self responsibility.Therefore if you over indulge or act in any way irresponsible,you deserve whatever outcome gets back to you.
People like this,law abiding folks who practice an antithesis to mainstream add color,balance and character to the world in my opinion.
As for Nazi philiosphy many Satanists vociferously denounce Hitler and the Third Reich stating an unbridled lust for power and fanatical devotion to racism.Other groups such as the Joy of Satan espouse a bit of Anti Semetic Nazi belief and can be downright nasty.
At any rate,the devout Christian,Muslim,Jew or other RHP white light path has nothing really to fear from these individuals and groups.Aren't the forces of light supposed to defeat the forces of darkness when it's all said or done? | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 4:52:05 PM | Aren't the forces of light supposed to defeat the forces of darkness when it's all said or done?
Yes, Art said the "tape" has not reached the end yet, or words to that effect, IF I remember rightly...no fast forwarding allowed.. | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 5:32:15 PM |
I'm sure you could probably find people who engage in all sorts of violent and dispicable acts taking Satanic philosophy to the extreme .....
Taurus, is it not reasonable to suggest that an important measure of the true worth of any philosophy is to be found precisely in those who do take it to it's extreme, ie, who are the most devoted followers and practitioners of it's principles? Christians who take the actual teachings of Jesus to their logical extremes -- and who actually practise the selfless love that he advocated in a truly Christlike manner -- make the world a far better place. According to the principles of Satanism that you have posted here, the Nazis were zealous advocates of Satanist philosophy -- regardless of whether or not some so called Satanists approve of them personally. I'm sure you agree that we can do without any more of that kind of "color, balance and character" in the world. I am having trouble understanding how you can be so sanguine about a philosophy that -- if truly practised to an extreme degree -- is so likely to lead to atrocities such as Nazism. | |
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Posted: 12/31/2005 8:17:02 PM | Christians who take the actual teachings of Jesus to their logical extremes -- and who actually practise the selfless love that he advocated in a truly Christlike manner -- make the world a far better place.
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I would not be so quick to make that assessment.I'm sure every criminal act done in the name of Christ was committed by a person who truly believed in their hearts that they were actually practising selfless love that Christ advocated in a truly Christlike manner.Susan Atkins of the Manson family said about the Tate/Labianca murders,"You really have to have a real love in your heart for these people to do this [commit murder]".Now one may argue that the Mansons,being convinced that Charlie was the resurrected messiah,were a perversion of the Christian philosophy,but then this becomes a matter of perspective.All religions and philosophies become subjective at a point.A criminally sick or depraved mind is such regardless of whether the orientation is Christain,Jew,Muslim,Satanist or Atheist.Likewise an intelligent,decent and worthwhile individual is such regardless of religion/philosophy as well.Peoples is peoples.
I measure the worth of a philosophy on how the majority of its followers behave.If they can interact with society at large and function within its rules and social customs than it has value.I would say the person practicing Satanism is far more functional and valueable to society than a Moonie or Hare Krisna. | |
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