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| Satanism
Posted: 12/31/2005 8:57:21 PM | Taurus, the true children of Christ follow this saying :-
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews."
Anyone claiming to fight in the name of Christ are not the servants of Christ... | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 12/31/2005 9:17:10 PM | Anyone claiming to fight in the name of Christ are not the servants of Christ
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You missed my point. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 12/31/2005 9:33:32 PM | It all really depends on the point you are trying to make Taurus
I'm sure every criminal act done in the name of Christ was committed by a person who truly believed in their hearts that they were actually practising selfless love that Christ advocated in a truly Christlike manner
I measure the worth of a philosophy on how the majority of its followers behave.If they can interact with society at large and function within its rules and social customs than it has value.
I disagree with your first statement by the post I previously made
And in regard to the last, Christs teaching when adhered to is beneficial to society. The majority do not necessarily follow those teachings or reflect the philosophy..
The teachings of communisims are quite simple, but look at the societies that followed them shows rampant disregard of the teachings which they epouse... | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/1/2006 3:53:55 AM | I'm sure every criminal act done in the name of Christ was committed by a person who truly believed in their hearts that they were actually practising selfless love that Christ advocated in a truly Christlike manner.Susan Atkins of the Manson family said about the Tate/Labianca murders,"You really have to have a real love in your heart for these people to do this [commit murder]".Now one may argue that the Mansons,being convinced that Charlie was the resurrected messiah,were a perversion of the Christian philosophy,but then this becomes a matter of perspective.
Taurus, who would argue that the actions of Charles Manson and his murderous "family" are a "perversion of the Christian philosophy"? That's giving the insane claims of insane people far more credit than they deserve!
We were talking about the actual teachings of Christianity and what they lead to if actually practised as opposed to the actual teachings of Satanism (as put forward by yourself) and what they lead to if actually practised. I think I've made a pretty good case that the actions of the Nazis were not at all inconsistent with the teachings of Satanism and in fact are a fulfillment of the things that Satanism values-- self indulgence, greed, destroying those who bother you, etc. Surely you would not claim that the actions of Charles Manson are consistent with the teachings of Jesus. What relevance can the sick imaginings of a twisted mind have to this discussion?
A criminally sick or depraved mind is such regardless of whether the orientation is Christain,Jew,Muslim,Satanist or Atheist.Likewise an intelligent,decent and worthwhile individual is such regardless of religion/philosophy as well.Peoples is peoples.
You seem to be saying that it doesn't really matter what people believe in. If so, I think you're completely out in left field on this one. Intelligent, decent and worthwhile persons are certainly so at least in part because of the values that they believe in. These values are certainly part of the philosophy they live by regardless of what they may claim as an "orientation".
Furthermore, a society bereft of any lofty ideals is doomed to destroy itself. The fact that Christians and other adherents of highly idealistic philosophies often fall short of their ideals in practice does not negate the value of having these ideals as something to strive for. The noted French philosopher Voltaire was often no friend of the Church but he had this to say: "...belief in God has kept some men from crime; this alone suffices me. When this belief prevents even ten assasinations, ten calumnies, I hold that all the world should embrace it." What does Satanism have to offer in this regard? You still haven't refuted my argument that a movement like Nazism is entirely consistent with a Satanist philosophy. I'm having a lot of trouble understanding why you are so anxious to defend a philosophy put forward by a man described in your own words as "by his own admission...a carnival huckster and junkyard intellectual". | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/1/2006 8:42:43 AM | I'm having a lot of trouble understanding why you are so anxious to defend a philosophy put forward by a man described in your own words as "by his own admission...a carnival huckster and junkyard intellectual".
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I defend those philosophies which serve everyone in some capacity or another.The human being is a complex animal.Satanism is a very individualistic,loner philosophy.You pointed out reasons yourself why some would find it attractive.I submit that there are people,a minority of people,who simply would not function in a traditional religious setting.It acts as a way these types can safely have an outlet for their dark leanings with a philosophical justification.Without these outlets,or social safety valves,many of these fringe types would become violent and anti social.
Think of it this way.How does the Golden Rule,"Do unto others" apply to the masscohist? | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/1/2006 8:48:38 AM | The teachings of communisims are quite simple, but look at the societies that followed them shows rampant disregard of the teachings which they epouse...
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This logic would result in a pissing contest.You could say that the criminal acts done by those espousing Christianity were done by people who were showing a rampant disregard for the teachings of Christ.You could also take the criminal acts of say Richard Ramirez,a self proclaimed Satanist and find where he too in his actions showed a disregard for many of the teachings of Satanism.Criminal acts are seen as irresponsible in Satanic thought. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/1/2006 2:41:34 PM |
Think of it this way.How does the Golden Rule,"Do unto others" apply to the masscohist?
In other words, the masochist would have to become a sadist to apply the Golden Rule given that he himself would like to be treated in a sadistic fashion? Well, thanks for the humour. I gotta admit that I've never heard that one before.
The answer though is that to correctly apply the rule, the masochist would not have to become a sadist except when interacting with another masochist. Each of us would like to be treated in the manner WE would like to be treated. Most of us aren't masochists. Since the masochist likes to be treated sadistically himself, to correctly apply the rule, he could only be sadistic to another masochist. He'd have to be kind to persons who were not masochists.
I'm not sure what your point is in posing this question. Are you saying that any philosophy can be twisted around to be good or bad?
I defend those philosophies which serve everyone in some capacity or another.The human being is a complex animal.Satanism is a very individualistic,loner philosophy.You pointed out reasons yourself why some would find it attractive.I submit that there are people,a minority of people,who simply would not function in a traditional religious setting.It acts as a way these types can safely have an outlet for their dark leanings with a philosophical justification.Without these outlets,or social safety valves,many of these fringe types would become violent and anti social.
This SOUNDS good, Taurus but it doesn't make a lot of sense.
I did indeed point out reasons that some might find Satanist philosophy attractive. One, it gives them "philosophical justification" to act selfishly and indulge whatever desires they might wish to indulge. Two, some find the cynical candour of such a "philosophy" refreshing. As previously stated, Satanist philosophy is often just a restatement of the way many people in this world actually conduct themselves regardless of whatever higher ideals they may profess to believe in. Satanists seem to be saying "let's get rid of the pretense and admit it. We are all selfish, no better than animals really. So let's cut the BS, stop beating ourselves up over it, hypocritically pretending that we are "divine spiritual beings" and all that religious nonsense. Let's just candidly acknowledge that we really have no obligation to any Higher Power or high ethical ideals, that our only obligation really is to ourselves and -- without guilt, shame or the sense of "sin" that religion tries to saddle us with -- we can get on with indulging our natural inclinations to be selfish animals because, in reality, that's all we are."
The problem is that a sense of guilt and shame is often all too appropriate and -- potentially at least -- restrains the worst excesses of human behaviour. It is also -- again, potentially at least -- what separates us from animals and "animal behaviour". I doubt that a tiger feels guilty when he tears a weaker creature to pieces for his food. I am glad that human beings still have the ability to feel guilt and shame if they destroy other persons to indulge their own appetites. Thank God that there are still religious and philosophical teachings that call us to a higher sense of purpose and hold up high ideals for us to strive for. These are the "salt of the earth" that preserve whatever conscience and idealism remain in this sorry world of ours. When these have gone the way of the dodo bird and nihilistic philosophies such as Satanism become the norm, then we will surely destroy ourselves. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/1/2006 5:22:16 PM |
The problem is that a sense of guilt and shame is often all too appropriate and -- potentially at least -- restrains the worst excesses of human behaviour. It is also -- again, potentially at least -- what separates us from animals and "animal behaviour". I doubt that a tiger feels guilty when he tears a weaker creature to pieces for his food. I am glad that human beings still have the ability to feel guilt and shame if they destroy other persons to indulge their own appetites. Thank God that there are still religious and philosophical teachings that call us to a higher sense of purpose and hold up high ideals for us to strive for. These are the "salt of the earth" that preserve whatever conscience and idealism remain in this sorry world of ours. When these have gone the way of the dodo bird and nihilistic philosophies such as Satanism become the norm, then we will surely destroy ourselves.
The problem is that humans are animals. It's a fact that we are animals. The only separation between us is the one we place into our heads.
A tiger doesn't feel guilt over eatting? Funny you say that, as most people don't feel any either. At least I don't ever remember crying from guilt as I ate a hamburger.
Also, you seem stuck upon the concept that Satanism is "selfish" and "lives to indulge". That's where your confusion surely stems from. Or this whole thing is a circular argument.
Humans have destroyed themselves for as long as they've existed. Funnily enough, more people have died under the name of God than Satan. Ideals mean little in writing an more in practice.
I'd like to add that I quite enjoyed your use of a slippery slope to try an illustrate how satanism will destroy us all. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/1/2006 6:19:50 PM | Those who say that they live by the words of god... Yet live their lives under the 'guise of actions only the devil would condone are destined to what??? Look around you now for hell's cup about runnith over.
Of all the ancient religious practices which did not have the story of christ behind them... They were all considerred paegans and had their religious structure obliterrated with the story of christ crammed down their throats by those who could only have only been praying to the devil by the worth of their actions.
I have gone to the church in my youth and watched the hypocrits disrespect each others and the world around them.
I am thankfull that the creator brought me into the sweatlodge and sundance arbor. When I spend my time fasting on the mountain the real truths about the world come directly from the creator not a book made by man.
C | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/2/2006 12:01:36 AM |
The problem is that humans are animals. It's a fact that we are animals. The only separation between us is the one we place into our heads.
Of course we are animals. You missed the entire point of the post -- that we do have the capacity to be more than merely animals. Your point about not feeling guilt about biting into a hamburger is a bit of an irrelevance. Nevertheless, many people are in fact vegetarians precisely because they would feel guilt about biting into a hamburger. Obviously, one could relate the destruction of "prey" to many aspects of life.
Don't the Satanist "laws" encourage you to destroy people who bother you? That's exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews who "bothered" them. Can you refute my argument in previous posts that many of the actions undertaken by the Nazis were entirely consistent with Satanist philosophy? Am I suggesting that all Satanists are Nazis or that there are no "nice" Satanists? Certainly not. I am suggesting that one could follow a path similar to the one taken by the Nazis with very little contradiction from the actual principles of Satanism. You could certainly not argue that about the actual principles of Christianity despite the tired argument about all the people dying "in the name of God". The actions of hypocritical persons who blatantly act in a manner contrary to ideals that they only profess but do not live by do not provide a logical argument against the ideals themselves.
Tell me, what is not "selfish" about Satanist philosophy? Where is the encouragement to undertake humanitarian causes, to sacrifice one's time and effort for the good of others, for instance? What in the "law of the talon" encourages us to aspire to anything beyond a selfish life?
Your point about ideals that aren't practised is a good one, of course. So is mine that it is important to have these ideals as something to aspire to. Aim for the stars and hit the moon, as they say. If you don't at least hope and strive to be anything more than a mere animal, that is certainly as high as you will ever reach. If the day comes that most people in the world truly believe that we are only animals and not capable of anything more, then we will indeed be on a slippery slope. | |
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Le Roi
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Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 61 | |
| Satanism
Posted: 1/2/2006 12:49:00 AM | Actually being a satanist is a bad thing. Because according to John 10:10 (King James Version) Jesus says, "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and kill, and to destroy....."
Satan is that thief. Stealing, killing (in cold blood), & destroying are bad things. But things were never like that in the beginning.
At one time Satan was Lucifer the angel in charge of worship......music was his talent. But when he wanted to take over the throne he became corrupt. Everything Satan touched became corrupt......just listen to the perversion in the music....
Yes, satanism is a bad thing. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/2/2006 12:54:53 AM | There is a fine line between a true christian, christianity and satanism.
Most of the christians i see could pass as satanists from the way they act. I suppose they both fall from the same flock. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/2/2006 4:00:49 AM |
Actually being a satanist is a bad thing. Because according to John 10:10 (King James Version) Jesus says, "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and kill, and to destroy....."
Satan is that thief. Stealing, killing (in cold blood), & destroying are bad things. But things were never like that in the beginning.
Quoting the bible is good and all, but poisoning the well is a logical fallacy. "Satan is bad! Why? The ones in opposition say so."
Don't the Satanist "laws" encourage you to destroy people who bother you? That's exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews who "bothered" them.
Ever hear of Godwin's Law?
The term destroy was not meant literally. That was already mentioned in this thread, so why have you ignored that?
Tell me, what is not "selfish" about Satanist philosophy? Where is the encouragement to undertake humanitarian causes, to sacrifice one's time and effort for the good of others, for instance? What in the "law of the talon" encourages us to aspire to anything beyond a selfish life?
You're very hung up on this, aren't you?
The encouragement would depend of the Satanist. As it's a belief that you should only help those who are deserving of help. Since there's a huge amount of subjectivity in there, it would boil down to an individual basis. Which is something that can be said for anyone. Personally, I feel that would create a more altruistic form of helping people. Instead of the typical self-serving version of helping people to buy your way into heaven. Or worse, the "I'll only help you if you have the same religionous beliefs as me". which can be found in some charity foundations.
You've seem to already made up your mind about what satanism is, so I'm not even sure if this is worth bothering with.
Of course we are animals. You missed the entire point of the post -- that we do have the capacity to be more than merely animals.
We don't have the capacity to be more than animals, we merely have to pride to claim that we are more. We're born, live, breathe, procreate, and die, just as any other animal would. Every other peripheral attribute would only serve as fluff for our egos.
If the day comes that most people in the world truly believe that we are only animals and not capable of anything more, then we will indeed be on a slippery slope.
I concur, we'll ride that logical fallacy back to the stone age. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/2/2006 6:25:32 AM | I'm not sure what your point is in posing this question. Are you saying that any philosophy can be twisted around to be good or bad?
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Yes,that's the point I'm making all along.There are some people who live better when they follow a philosophy diametrically opposed to what the general population at large accepts as "good".Satanism even refers to it's adherants as "Alien Elite". | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/2/2006 1:34:13 PM |
Ever hear of Godwin's Law?
The term destroy was not meant literally. That was already mentioned in this thread, so why have you ignored that?
No, Black, I haven't heard of Godwin's Law. What is it?
All I have seen in this thread re the correct understanding of "destroy" according to Satanism is what Taurus posted, ie, one should destroy one's enemies with a "destruction ritual" or a hex. Still sounds pretty destructive to me. What exactly is it that I am supposed to be ignoring?
Again, from the Satanist "laws of the earth" as posted by Taurus:
"If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy."
This is exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews whom they -- arguably at least -- considered to be unwelcome and annoying guests in their own "lair", ie, Germany, the home of the "master race". Will you now argue that one should not take the advice to treat annoying guests "cruelly and without mercy" literally? Is there some kind of a benevolent spin that you can put on words such as these? | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/2/2006 1:39:27 PM |
There are some people who live better when they follow a philosophy diametrically opposed to what the general population at large accepts as "good". Satanism even refers to it's adherants as "Alien Elite".
Could you explain this one for me with an appropriate example of "Alien Elite" behaviour, Taurus? | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/2/2006 6:04:31 PM | Could you explain this one for me with an appropriate example of "Alien Elite" behaviour, Taurus?
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I think Blackskirt gave a very good example.Helping someone who an individual feels is deserving of help instead of the self serving help with the motivation being a better afterlife.Think of it this way,if you help yourself,you become more capable of bettering the world around you.Rather than trying to appease some celestial parent figure,you want your results to please you,which can be a better motivation than simply wanting another religious convert.
I knew a Satanist who was planning to start his own homeless shelter.He planned on opening it to only people whom he felt would be motivated to become productive with his help.
LaVey felt Satanists to be a superior breed of person because rather than depending on the dictates of given religion for self improvement,the Satanist was reliant only on himself.If he screwed up,he had himself to blame.If he overindulged,he faced his own consequences,if he wronged someone,he faced their wrath alone.It's this type of independence he felt,made them elite. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/2/2006 11:23:44 PM |
It's this type of independence he felt,made them elite.
And no different than your average folk............. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/3/2006 12:02:06 AM | | Good one, Never. You said it so much more succinctly than I would have. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/3/2006 12:15:30 AM |
No, Black, I haven't heard of Godwin's Law. What is it?
All I have seen in this thread re the correct understanding of "destroy" according to Satanism is what Taurus posted, ie, one should destroy one's enemies with a "destruction ritual" or a hex. Still sounds pretty destructive to me. What exactly is it that I am supposed to be ignoring?
Godwin's law is something used in internet discussions. It say that as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.
Yes, using hexes and such may be destructive. However comparing it to Nazis would be reductio ad Hitlerum, a logical fallacy. A hex, despite what people believe, will not murder someone. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/3/2006 12:35:13 AM | Black, thanks for the laugh. Okay, so I'm proof of Godwin's law. Good law, it's probably quite true, thanks for passing it on. Have you ever heard of a corollary to Godwin's law? Here's one that's similar to the saying "I may be paranoid but that doesn't mean someone isn't following me": "Comparisons involving Hitler may be frequently and needlessly brought up in discussions everywhere but that doesn't mean that sometimes they aren't appropriate."
Despite your witty dismissal of my argument that the actions of the Nazis seem eminently consistent with Satanist philosophy, you haven't really refuted it or destroyed it with any real logic. Are you putting a "hex" on it? Or is your minimizing of the destructive power of hexes expected to suffice? What exactly do hexes achieve and how do they fulfill the Satanist dictums to "destroy those who bother you" and treat annoying guests "cruelly and without mercy"? | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/3/2006 2:02:26 AM | | A satanist is a person that believes that humanity can do a better job of running earth than God. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/3/2006 2:42:50 AM |
Despite your witty dismissal of my argument that the actions of the Nazis seem eminently consistent with Satanist philosophy, you haven't really refuted it or destroyed it with any real logic. Are you putting a "hex" on it? Or is your minimizing of the destructive power of hexes expected to suffice? What exactly do hexes achieve and how do they fulfill the Satanist dictums to "destroy those who bother you" and treat annoying guests "cruelly and without mercy"?
I'm not the person to talk to about hexes. I'm not a practitioner of any form of magick.
Let me say this once to make it completely clear. Satanist will not endorse the killing of anyone unless they're attacked first. The same with "non-human animals" they're only killed in defence or for food.
Actions which may seem similar to a Satanist belief does not make a Satanist.
That's the same with a person who doesn't murder, steal, or commit adultery not being a Christian. | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/4/2006 12:56:19 AM | Let me say this once to make it completely clear. Satanist will not endorse the killing of anyone unless they're attacked first. The same with "non-human animals" they're only killed in defence or for food.
Actions which may seem similar to a Satanist belief does not make a Satanist.
That's the same with a person who doesn't murder, steal, or commit adultery not being a Christian.
Black, I guess it would depend on one's definition of being "attacked". The Nazis were forever insisting that they attacked other countries because those countries were threatening the well being of Germany or of German nationals who lived in those countries. In addition, they considered the Jews in their own midst -- and everyone else's -- to be a threat to the wellbeing and advancement of the "master race". They often justified their actions on the grounds of "self defence", in other words. Of course, they didn't call themselves Satanists and probably never read the Satanist "bible". They were too busy writing their own with very similar beliefs such as "destroy those who bother you", etc.
My point all along has been not that all Satanists are particularly evil persons or that they are like Nazis or approve of Nazis but that the principles of Satanism could provide philosophical justification for all kinds of atrocities such as those practised by the Nazis. You still haven't answered what the meaning of "destroy" is in this law of Satanism.
I expect that you will say that many supposedly religious persons also twist the principles of the Bible, for instance, to suit their own purposes and I certainly can't deny that many do. Still, it takes a lot more twisting to get from the sayings of Jesus such as "love your enemies and bless those who persecute you" to a Nazi-like philosophy than it does from such Satanist principles as "if a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy". Not much twisting required there, the recipe for abuse is already pretty explicit.
If you don't mind me asking, what's the real attraction for you in this kind of philosophy -- denial of God and the supernatural (hexes excluded, of course), the rejection of restrictions placed on one's indulgences by religious teachings or...? | |
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| Satanism
Posted: 1/5/2006 11:51:54 PM |
till, it takes a lot more twisting to get from the sayings of Jesus such as "love your enemies and bless those who persecute you"
Oh really? It sounds like the philosophy of a masochist.
Your 'Christ' also stated this:
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, nay, but rather division; for from henceforth there shall be five in one household divided, three
against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the
daughter, and the son against the father; the mother against the
daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother-in-law against her
daughter-in-law, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-
law."
Luke, 12: 51-53
Love to see you rationalize that one away.
Of course, they didn't call themselves Satanists and probably never read the Satanist "bible".
Ahem. The Satanic Bible didn't exist during the period when the Nazi party was prominent in Germany. | |
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