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 NIGEL44
Joined: 11/21/2008
Msg: 76
Gaza MassacrePage 4 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
The who was there first argument doesn't wash. To use that argument the Anglo Saxons would give up England and go back to Germany.

The State of Israel was created by international agreement. The international community mostly recognises their right to protect that land.

Hamas is using it's terrorism to manipulate Palestine and that has caused an invasion. What their agenda is who knows.
 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 77
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 9:55:17 AM
^^ Yes I agree the state of Israel has a right to exist.. It was agreed to hand over the lands to the Jewish settlers and that would be that..

Then the wars started, who was the aggressor and who was the victim is debatable and subject to bias but suffice to say Israel more than doubled it's land mass during the 6 day war .. These lands were not given, they were occupied and forcibly taken from Jordan, Egypt and Syria .. Do they have the right to these lands? Or should they be returned to the original countries they belonged to? (Their occupancies and productiveness are moot points, there are large tracts of Scotland that are completely unused, it does not mean they are available to whomever fancies a bit of it for themselves..)


1967 May: Forces on both Arab and Israeli sides of the borders are mobilized.
June 5: Israel attacks Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel achieved great victories immediately, especially on the Egyptian front, where Egyptian air crafts are wiped out after effective bombing of air strips.
June 7: The strategically important Egyptian Sharm el-Sheikh is captured.
— Jordan surrenders to Israel, after having lost East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
June 8: The entire Sinai comes under Israeli control. Later that evening, Israeli fights on the Egyptian front cease.
June 10: Syria surrenders, after seeing Golan Heights come under Israeli control.


These lands were not given to Israel as a multi country political agreement, they were forcibly taken ... If Israel is happy to attack other countries and steal lands from them, then they have no right to squeal when they are attacked... Israel is not protecting the lands it was given, they are protecting the lands they stole during the 6 day war... i.e The Gaza ...

I really do not know who is more in the wrong here, both sides are guilty of gross stupidities ... All I do know is that this current situation has the potential to escalate into to something really bloody scary, for all of us!!
 pumpkin16
Joined: 9/14/2008
Msg: 78
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 10:29:05 AM
I've spent time in Israel and the Israeli people who actually live there (you hear a lot from Jews who claim it rightly or wrongly as their homeland but who don't go there or have never been there) They are quite bitter in the main (not that I spoke to all of them by any stretch of the imagination) but the general feel at that time was that they wanted Israel, they got Israel and then realised that really Israel wasn't much to write home about in terms of what it had, i.e. natural resources, arable land etc. It's practically a strip of desert with some historical touristic value and a nice bit of seaside for holidays, surrounded by muslim arab nations. Not exactly the land of milk and honey it was described as. The general feeling amongst Israelis in my experience was that they wanted a bit more than that and tourism, a bit of Dead Sea mud and some Jaffa's was not enough in terms of business opportunity.

There is obvious dispute about Judaism being a religion and therefore Jews not being a nationality but a religious group anyway. They are biblically one of the twelve tribes of Israel the line coming from one of the 12 son's of Jacob, namely Judah whose tribe inhabited Jerusalem at a point in history and later claimed it as the home of all tribes of Israel. This confuses me as to how Israel belongs to the Jews? They inhabited an existing city and what of the other tribes' rights?

And remember that when Moses led the people into the promised land the first thing they noticed was that there were already people living there. So this recent turn of events is not the first time the indigenous population of Israel/Canaan/Palestine whatever you want to call it have been turfed out by someone else who decided it was their promised land (promised by God, by the USA, by Britian or otherwise).

Surely if God loved all of his children he would have made provision for the people who were living in a land he promised to someone else before he sent them in??? At best not a good landlord at worst another case of religion dividing and causing conflict death and destruction.

I agree that after the second world war it became apparent that the Jews had nowhere to go as a safe homeland during the holocaust, but Judaism is a religion in my opinion, a religion peculiar to a particular group of people, originating in a small geographical area, just like all others really. As they spread themselves out around the rest of the world they became British Jews, American Jews, Moroccan Jews, Algerian Jews, French Jews etc just as I'm a british christian. My homeland is the land where I was born and make my home, should I suddenly find myself persecuted I wouldn't decide I needed to return to Jerusalem as it was the place where Christianity started. I would be happy to go anywhere anyone would have me and sort myself out from there - just as Jews were offered sanctuary and asylum in many countries throughout the world. If we want to go back to where our homeland is in terms of the exact spot where our first ancestor arrived on the planet, then we are stuffed really unless we are black Africans who know with a certain surety that they came from Africa but even then that is 'somewhere' in Africa for many and not a precise region. Judaism hasn't been around since time began therefore they settled 'somewhere' and have God given rights (forgive the pun) to nowhere.

As ever my sentiments are based on simple knowledge and the way I have observed and understood things. I have nothing against Jews, I have a lot of friends who are Jews and that's how come I spent so much time in Israel, I've argued these points with them and never got a satisfactory answer to be honest so we agreed to disagree.

I therefore feel that the Palestinians got a raw deal and not for the first time. A visit to Israel reveals many Muslims living happily alongside Jews, something I didn't realise until I went there. Ok so Jews have yellow number plates and tend to drive German luxury cars and the Arabs drive jallopies with blue ones to identify them but they do live side by side (note 'side by side' and 'alongside' and not necessarily 'with'). During passover when the Jewish shops don't sell levened products, the muslim bakers do a roaring trade with the Jews frantically buying from them helping to support their businesses and their ability to thrive (in the loosest of terms) in Israel. It's not all hatred and intolerance over there. The Palestinians, whose home is Gaza rather than Israel, are trying to hold onto the last piece of land they were left with and who can blame them, they've been there for thousands of years afterall.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 79
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 10:50:58 AM

Then the wars started, who was the aggressor and who was the victim is debatable and subject to bias but suffice to say Israel more than doubled it's land mass during the 6 day war .. These lands were not given, they were occupied and forcibly taken from Jordan, Egypt and Syria .. Do they have the right to these lands?


OK, so let's debate, but arm ourselves with a few facts.

For 20 years after its creation, Israel was bordered by Arab countries which refused to recognise its existence - some of those countries were prepared to use force to remove Israel from the map.

From time to time, Israel was forced to defend itself from the aggressive conduct of thsoe countries. In 1967, Egypt organised a coalition of countries, and even helped to arm Jordan, and it was clear that an invasion of Israel on several fronts was inevitable.

So, the Israelis decided to hit the biggest aggressor, Egypt, with an air-strike on its airforce.

After six days, the Arab forces had retreated from the Golan Heights, the area around Gaza, the West Bank of the Jordan, and the Sinai peninsular. This left Israel in command of thousands of Arabs, and ensured that it had buffer zones between it and its neighbours. This is what Stalin did around Russia.

Israel has since withdrawn from all those areas, yet is still subject to attack from Palestinians....I have no sympathy for them.
 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 80
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:06:09 AM
ZG I've been trying to find a fair and unbiased reportage of the historical problems suffered and caused by Israel.. Would love to be directed towards somewhere I can be properly educated on this ...
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 81
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:09:54 AM

OK, so let's debate, but arm ourselves with a few facts.

For 20 years after its creation, Israel was bordered by Arab countries which refused to recognise its existence - some of those countries were prepared to use force to remove Israel from the map.

From time to time, Israel was forced to defend itself from the aggressive conduct of thsoe countries. In 1967, Egypt organised a coalition of countries, and even helped to arm Jordan, and it was clear that an invasion of Israel on several fronts was inevitable.

So, the Israelis decided to hit the biggest aggressor, Egypt, with an air-strike on its airforce.

After six days, the Arab forces had retreated from the Golan Heights, the area around Gaza, the West Bank of the Jordan, and the Sinai peninsular. This left Israel in command of thousands of Arabs, and ensured that it had buffer zones between it and its neighbours. This is what Stalin did around Russia.

Israel has since withdrawn from all those areas, yet is still subject to attack from Palestinians....I have no sympathy for them.


1967 no Arab country had recognised Israel on the contrary now nearly all Arab countries recognise it. That still doesn't legtimise Israel to kiss innocent people and kids. For that guy who is wishing that Israel should bomb all the F**** in Palestine you should know that Hitler did the samething to Jews what Israel is doing to Palestine. You have one sick mind man. Get a life..
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 82
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:23:31 AM

1967 no Arab country had recognised Israel on the contrary now nearly all Arab countries recognise it.


Which is progress, of sorts!


That still doesn't legtimise Israel to kiss innocent people and kids.


There will always be colateral damage in war. The Palestinian terrorists have chosen to operate out of civilian areas in Gaza. It is they who have been shelling Israel from those places, and it is they who bear responsibilty when the Israelis retaliate. Surgical strikes are only so accurate, and if terrorists hide in schools.....

As for the suicide bombers, they have killed many Israeli children who were doing nothing more than riding on a bus or eating pizza. Did the bombers not look around and see them before triggering their bombs? Or course they did ....why explode your bomb on an empty bus?


For that guy who is wishing that Israel should bomb all the F**** in Palestine you should know that Hitler did the samething to Jews what Israel is doing to Palestine. You have one sick mind man.


Read the posts!

The comment was aimed at the terrorists, not the ordinary Palestinians, as was mine.....
 MrWuppy
Joined: 9/8/2007
Msg: 83
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:23:56 AM
Pants, you could try this...
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
its a bit of a potted history. Like yourself, I have been trying to find some unbiased history of the area, and associated historical problems, but not had much success, it all seems biased to some agenda.
You could try Wiki(for source material), rense.com (not always unbiased), and there is ....Ummm another site that I can't remember the name of at the mo. HTH.
Sorry for being OT.
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 84
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:34:52 AM
Rule of law is not something Israel like. There are so many UN resolutions that Israelis are not implementing. US and Israel would defy the world and carry on there killing ways.

Double standards I guess. I always say any innocent loss of life is not acceptable no matter who that is. I Israel is doing doing exactly what Hamas is doing but perhaps at the lager scale. Both terrorists.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 85
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:41:19 AM
There will always be colateral damage in war. The Palestinian terrorists have chosen to operate out ...


I am sorry but you are biased. If you call the thousands of kids and civilians who were killed by the Israel bombs why do not you call "collateral damage" also the less then hundred Israelis who died from "terrorist" Palestinians i.e. "freedom fighters"

For me the Israeli soldiers coming into Palestine and arresting Palestinian people on their own land is very close to what the Germans did in many countries they occupied in WWII when they arrested and killed anyone who was against them and would possibly fight. No difference.

And international community is a sh**t. If this bombing happened anywhere else in the world ( except Russian and China hehe) that country would already be bombed and the international forces would be there. So WHY NOT in Israel?
Who the hell is Israel to not to allow international forces in Palestine? Is that their land? No!


The land was theirs in the beginning.


Kosova was Serbian land too .. but was taken off their territory ;) and got their own independence with the agreement from the whole world.
So why not Palestine too?
 Steve_Sandy
Joined: 3/19/2006
Msg: 86
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:48:09 AM
lots of rockets being fired into israel from gaza, what is israel supposed to do, let it's people die or wait until the extend the range and hit the nuke plant ?

seems hamas have been using ambulances to move troops, mosques and houses to store ammo and people get upset when they get targeted and blown up...

can't see israel giving up and leaving the area, where would they all goto ?

suspect will see a few more weeks of palestinians being killed whilst the building around the borders are flattened, the french president had it right when he blamed hamas for most of the troubles

given up on religion, bit like willy waving - my god is better than your god pap....
 NIGEL44
Joined: 11/21/2008
Msg: 87
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:49:03 AM

i.e. "freedom fighters"


Wrong they are terrorists. They are attacking a foreign country, not fighting for the freedom of their own land. That country has retaliated in the age old fashion. The terrorists then hide behind kids and civillians and consequently and tragically innocents are being killed.

The Israelis probably see it as fighting a fire in a house. You pour on water to kill the flames regardless of what is damaged by water.

Like Dresden Hamburg or Hiroshima innocent people will suffer for the wrong doings of their corrupt political masters in times of war. We make no apology for that and Israel wont either.
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 88
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:50:38 AM
I don't think anyone is asking Isrealis to leave. They had a cease fire for long time with Hamas. Then the Israel blockaded the border thats when the rocket started. Look this could have been done through talks like they did in the past. Israel is hell bent on killing people.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 89
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:51:34 AM
They are attacking a foreign country, not fighting for the freedom


And Israel is not attacking the foreign country?


lots of rockets being fired into israel from gaza, what is israel supposed to do


let the international forces in and allow them to administer Palestine until it becomes an independent and civilised country????

Not bloody killing everything what breathes..

Is that too much to do????
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 90
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:55:31 AM

Wrong they are terrorists. They are attacking a foreign country, not fighting for the freedom of their own land. That country has retaliated in the age old fashion. The terrorists then hide behind kids and civillians and consequently and tragically innocents are being killed.


Thats your view and and perhaps Israel too. One man terrorist is another man freedom fighter. That is open to debate... I just saw news and there was an Israeli former pilot pleading and begging to the world to stop Israel from carrying out this massacre. If you are hell bent in justifying killings then there is no point arguing with you. Humanity comes first than anything else, only humen can feel the pain.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 91
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:58:40 AM

And Israel is not attacking the foreign country?


Israel is retaliating for Hamas' attacks.



I am sorry but you are biased.


This comment was made by someone who has yet to acknowledge the death of a single Israeli civilian at the hands of Palestinians!





Israel bombs why do not you call "collateral damage" also the less then hundred Israelis who died from "terrorist" Palestinians i.e. "freedom fighters"


Simple - because of the nature of the intended target.

The term is used to describe damage caused unintentionally when a target is hit.

When the Israelis kill Palestinian civilians, it is plain that they are aiming at the militias who are hiding amongst them. When a suicide bomber detonates a bomb in a disco or pizza parlour, it is plain that he is targetting ordinary civilians, not the Israeli military.

The militant Palestinians in Gaza are not 'freedom fighters'. Gaza is controlled by the PNA, so they have no-one to fight for their 'freedom'.

Hence my terminology!


HTH
 NIGEL44
Joined: 11/21/2008
Msg: 92
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 12:04:14 PM

One man terrorist is another man freedom fighter. That is open to debate


No it isn't.

They aren't freedom fighters, fact.

They aren't fighting for the freedom of their state or the right to govern themselves. They had already been granted that.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 93
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 12:05:19 PM
Simple - because of the nature of the intended target.

The term is used to describe damage caused unintentionally when a target is hit.

When the Israelis kill Palestinian civilians, it is plain that they are aiming at the militias who are hiding amongst them. When a suicide bomber detonates a bomb in a disco or pizza parlour, it is plain that he is targetting ordinary civilians, not the Israeli military.

The militant Palestinians in Gaza are not 'freedom fighters'. Gaza is controlled by the PNA, so they have no-one to fight for their 'freedom'.

Hence my terminology!


HTH


Oh what you are talking about?
Someone closes your borders because they can, leaves you without food and prosperity and the world does nothing.. they keep you in a reservate
ion and bomb and kill from time to time and what you are supposed to do?
Even Cherie Blair said this at one point !
We are not talking here about the equal armies fighting on the front, Israel is the 4th Army in the world and Palestine has a handful of fighters armed with stones.. and recently few grenades.. oh c'mon.. be realistic.. !


Since 1976, Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. In 2004, Israel was receiving $2.16 billion a year in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) grants from the Department of Defense.[22] This amount has increased in recent years due to non-military economic aid being shifted to military aid.[23] A large proportion of this military aid is for the purchase of American military equipment only.


So how would you fight an army of this strength ?
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 94
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 12:05:48 PM
There were four people killed from rocket and everyone condemned it. Zeegary, same could be said about you you have not condemned the mass murder by Israelis yet? so what does that make you? unbiased..lol Its funny how people justify their comments...
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 95
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 12:09:07 PM

No it isn't.
I am saying if you ask Palestinian some of them mightl disagree with you when a state like Israel deprive people of their fundamental rights then I guess that feed the radicalism to rise. Does not matter what me or you think whether they are heros or zeros.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 96
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 12:16:18 PM

Oh what you are talking about?


I'm making my posts as simple as possible.



Someone closes your borders because they can, leaves you without food and prosperity and the world does nothing.


Firstly, as a sovereign state (which we aren't) Israel is free to seal its borders to whoever it likes. If it perceives a thread from a neighbour, it has the right to stop that neighbour entering its country.

Secondly, the world is spraying money at the PNA.

Thirdly, Gaza hasa coastal border. It isn't being blockaded.



they keep you in a reservate and bomb and kill from time to time and what you are supposed to do?


The Palestinian refugee camps were created by Palestinians who are fleeing from the towns Gaza. They are fleeing because terrorists are shelling Israel from those areas. Sadly, some terrorists have also used the camps from which to shell Israel, which means that the Israelis have to retaliate.

I think it should be remembered that the current military action was caused by Hamas' decision to end the ceasefire and start shelling srael.




We are not talking here about the equal armies fighting on the front, Israel is the 4th Army in the world and Palestine has a handful of fighters armed with stones.. and recently few grenades.. oh c'mon.. be realistic.. !


Hmmmmm.....so, Hamas is poorly armed, it runs its own territory, and its neighbour is the 4th largest army in the world.

How dumb do the Hamas leaders have to be to pick a fight?


There were four people killed from rocket and everyone condemned it. Zeegary, same could be said about you you have not condemned the mass murder by Israelis yet?


I don't have to comment about every Palestinian death, save to say that Hamas is to blame!

Besides, Hamas views the lives of Palestinians cheaply.....how many of its people has it instructed to become suicide bombers? So why should I get worked up about Palestinian deaths?

HTH
 dub08
Joined: 4/28/2007
Msg: 97
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 12:19:46 PM
Dont really intend to get into this debate - I dont know enough about the history of it etc however on a point - a lot of Arab countries still dont recognise Israel. I spent over 10 years in the Middle East and:

You can't visit Israel from most Arab countries - you have to go into another country and then get a separate flight. You can't telephone Israel from most Arab countries - dialling code is blocked. You can't enter most Arab countries if you have a stamp from Israel in your passport - which is reason why a lot of business men living in the middle east (expats) have 2 passports and finally if you buy a globe or map in most Arab countries you will find Israel marked out with black pen!

Just for info!
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 98
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 12:23:01 PM
Dub08
You mean Jordan, Egpypt, Morocco, UAE for your information they all recognise Israel baring a couple.


You are blind follower...Zeegary. Obliviously Justices word doesn't exists when you talk about certain people.
 dub08
Joined: 4/28/2007
Msg: 99
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 12:27:14 PM
And Bahrain and Saudi - so that would be 4 out of 6 that dont recognise Israel - I would say that was most!
 Alf hucker
Joined: 9/23/2008
Msg: 100
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 1:10:09 PM
This is a bad thing to say, I really don't care what goes on there.But caring and doing nothing , is no better! I am 40 yrs old and one of my earliest memories is, blue peter doing some sort of collection for Palestine . So 30 + yrs on, I am immune to it, Now its Iraq Afghanistan every single day death death and more death.A few hundred hear and there no one takes notice any more, politicians are warlords in suits


Tony Blair middle east peace envoy, That is so sick its funny
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