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 AUTHOR
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 126
Gaza MassacrePage 6 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Mr Taffykev,

Where have you seen us defending Hamas? Why don't you smell coffee and utter few words of sympathy for those innocent children that are being killed under the name of Hamas. What does that make state of Israel, in anyone books a terrorist act. State should act more responsibly rather than go on rampage.
 Alf hucker
Joined: 9/23/2008
Msg: 127
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:35:43 AM
Actually the Geneva convention rules of war only apply if BOTH sides are treaty members. If one side is not and the other side is, neither side has to abide by those rules.
 Dandy Highwayman
Joined: 8/15/2008
Msg: 128
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:35:46 AM
In my cynical view I think that the Israelis are quite happy to hit UN buildings regardless of Hamas, because if the UN leave Palestine then they can get away with much more in there treatment and persucution of the Palestinians.
America will not denounce the Israel attacks as America hopes that Iran will become involved, then the USA can launch against Iran a long time target of the US. Also the US is a major arms dealer to Israel, and is quite happy to support them by saying nothing inflammatory agaisnt Israel, and using there veto on the UN Council to block UN intervention.

Team America Fvck Yeah World Police

As for the tunnels if Israel opened up the border again and allowed free trade between the two factions the tunnels would be irreleavant, at the moment they are mostly used for bringing in medical,food,livestock supplies etc , yes and arms.
All war is sick and barbaric, the only people who really lose are the innocents that are killed on both sides.

I have shyed away from this post mostly because it makes me sad and fearfull for the consequences, as this is potenially a nuclear war.

TheDandy
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 129
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:39:28 AM

Terrorists never hide in schools or mosques do they


Yes they do. Which really is the problem. If terrorists hide inside a school and use the children as shields that's wrong. However, bombing the school and killing everyone inside in order to kill the terrorists is also wrong.

These actions simply demonstrate that neither side has any regard for the safety of the civilian population if that gets in the way of their own political agendas. That's why international intervention is urgently needed to put a stop to it.
 indianbob
Joined: 12/19/2005
Msg: 130
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:42:38 AM
If you are going to start a fight be prepared to get your butt kicked. If you go up to the bouncer of a bar and slap him in the face, know well that he is going to strike back no matter how small, stupid or drunk you are.
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 131
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:54:41 AM


If you are going to start a fight be prepared to get your butt kicked. If you go up to the bouncer of a bar and slap him in the face, know well that he is going to strike back no matter how small, stupid or drunk you are.


So if you were sitting in that bar too and that bouncer comes and hit the crap out of you what would you do then.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 132
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 6:20:51 AM
In my cynical view I think that the Israelis are quite happy to hit UN buildings regardless of Hamas, because if the UN leave Palestine then they can get away with much more in there treatment and persucution of the Palestinians.
America will not denounce the Israel attacks as America hopes that Iran will become involved, then the USA can launch against Iran a long time target of the US. Also the US is a major arms dealer to Israel, and is quite happy to support them by saying nothing inflammatory agaisnt Israel, and using there veto on the UN Council to block UN intervention.

Team America Fvck Yeah World Police


Oh thank you Dandy!
I was going to say this long ago and thought someone might think I am mad hehe but yes.. this might be the core/a true reason for these attacks.. nothing to do with the Palestinians at the moment, but a hope that Iran would get involved
 Buzzlightbeer
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 133
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 6:36:12 AM

actross


Legendary!


Perhaps someone can supply a link to support the quoted statement?


www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians


Not according to The Calgary Herald:


That article is dated 28/12/2008, the article I provided the link for predates that (05/11/2008) and so points to the actual date of the violation of the ceasefire.


No.


I didn't think you could. If you had looked at the link I posted you would see that 'err' is considered the proper form of 'er' by the OED, unless you can prove differently with a link...

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/err?view=uk

"err

/er/

• verb 1 be mistaken or incorrect. 2 do wrong.

— ORIGIN Latin errare ‘to stray’."

After all, the statement I was referring to is incorrect:


A Hamas spokesman said " We unreservedly aplogise for attempting to enter Israel territory via these tunnels in a bid to capture Israeli soldiers who were peacefully standing guard on its border"


Incorrect: not in accordance with fact or standards; wrong.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/incorrect?view=uk



Here's an example of someone spelling this simple word incorrectly:

Err...not really (IMO)..she tells one side of the story.


I can help you with that one as I wrote it. It wasn't a hesitation (as you believe), it was setting the premise that I could be wrong in my opinion. The spelling is correct.

Correct: free from error; true; right.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/correct?view=uk

HTH


I think that's it in a nutshell.


Pretty much spot on.

I really hope that a new ceasefire is put in place soon. Has anyone read this:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23611375-details/Israel+uses+phosphorus+shells+as+smokescreen+for+troops/article.do

(It's barbaric!)

Or seen these images:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1105127/At-14-children-killed-Gaza-terror-Israel-defies-demands-ceasefire.html

Shocking!
 shaneyp
Joined: 11/24/2008
Msg: 134
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 6:42:31 AM
Can i say that ive read this thread over and over again and the one thing i seem to notice is that if a bunch of people in an online forum cant come to an agreement on gaza,what the hell are the politicians supposed to do?

It's a complete no-brainer,there will never be peace between these nations,not in our lifetimes anyway.

We may as well just let them just get on with killing each other,because eventually they might just realize what havoc and destruction they are causing each other,but i seriously doubt it.

These conflicts have been going on for generations,and i cant see any end to them soon,lets face facts,people are going to always dislike others,and when you multiply that by thousands/millions,then you get what is happening now,and no amount of political bluff and bluster is going to stop it any time soon.

Call me a cynic,but i think both sides actually enjoy wiping each other out,bit by bit,and if thats the case,i say,let them get on with it,we have enough problems to deal with in our own country to be worrying whats going on in a place halfway round the world,lets hope it sorts itself out,more for the sake of the innocent civilians that always get caught up in these types of war/conflict!
 karma9800
Joined: 6/21/2007
Msg: 135
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 10:38:57 AM
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/172252-The-Other-Side-of-the-Story-

Contains images you may not want to look at ..........

I think these photos are a good way to sum up whats really going on. The quassam rockets are not much more than a firework to be fair. They are unguided and of course they can injure and they can kill.

But i think the photos very much sum up the difference from being attacked with homemade simplified rockets to being attacked with state of the art weaponry.

What hope of wiping out terror is there when you can breed so much hate into a group of people by infliction of so much pain.
 ak481
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 136
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 11:45:31 AM
For as long as you have financial/economics/mobility/capital restrictions, factionalism, under-development and anger.
You will always have discontent and war.

The key is development, "development as freedom".
 matty40s
Joined: 10/17/2008
Msg: 137
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 12:27:02 PM
bur Karma - zeegary will say that is just palestinian propaganda - and they are entirely to blame for their own children dying. His hotline to the Israeli PR machine is working overtime.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 138
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 1:12:35 PM
My spoof 'apology' by a fictional Hamas spokesman (whilst attempting to make a point about Hamas rarely apologising for its actions) seems to have caused a little confusion, so I'll begin this post by clarifying my use of language.

Once I had ended my "quotation", I paused whilst I considered how ridiculous such an apology would be. To add to the effect, I used a common term 'er' which is used to convey a hesitancy on the part of a writer whilst they consider what has been written or what is about to be written.

Sadly, some have taken this to be a misspelling of the term 'err', which is, as has been pointed out, a term used as an adjective or a verb with regard to making mistakes. Not only are the two words spelled differently, but their meanings are different.

The point is, I cannot find a record of any statements issued by Hamas apologising for its actions - unless someone can help me with that.

I asked "I cannot find a single Hamas source that admits either that the incident occurred or that a tunnel across the Israeli border lay at the centre of it. Perhaps someone can supply a link to support the quoted statement?". My question arose after reading a Guardian article concerning an alleged breach of the ceasefire by Israel. I noticed that the Hamas official quoted made no mention of a tunnel of any kind, and that he did not refer to the Israeli action against the occupants of that tunnel. In short, he didn't state what the nature of the Israeli "massive breach of the truce" was.

I found this rather odd - if Hamas had been given an excuse to accuse the Israelis of breaching the truce, surely they would have informed us all of the details?


That article is dated 28/12/2008, the article I provided the link for predates that (05/11/2008) and so points to the actual date of the violation of the ceasefire.


The dates of the articles are irrelevant! It is the facts contained therein which are important. If an article dated 10-1-09 appears which states that it had been discovered that Israel had breached the truce in October, would the lateness of that article obviate the facts it contained? Of course not!

The Chicago Herald article stated that Hamas had been breaching the truce before the Israeli attack on the tunnel. Another one, from The Independent, confirms this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tunnels-ndash-the-secret-weapon-for-hamas-1228140.html

"The fact that these tunnels have played a key role in keeping Hamas in political and military power has made them not only targets of Israeli attacks but also a key issue in any ceasefire. "

For those tunnels to have been a key issue in the ceasefire, they MUST have been in existence at the time the ceasefire was brokered - unless the Israeli government is clairvoyant!

So, the continued use of these tunnels by the Palestinians meant that they were violating the truce from Day One.


I think Israel is wrong in their current actions. They know exactly where they are firing and on whom.


I agree!

The tank commanders are taught to aim at sources of enemy fire, and to deal with that enemy in the quickest possible way. In a battle situation, there isn't time to access the potential for collateral damage - an enemy position is an enemy position, and enemy fire has to be returned.


If terrorists hide inside a school and use the children as shields that's wrong.


I agree.


However, bombing the school and killing everyone inside in order to kill the terrorists is also wrong.


So, what does the tank commander do? Ask the terrorist to stop shelling him whilst he nips inside the building for five minutes to check? Call off the advance, and be shelled as he retreats?


So if you were sitting in that bar too and that bouncer comes and hit the crap out of you what would you do then.


Ask the bouncer why he hit you - there's usually some good reason.

The terrorist view every Palestinian as a potential martyr, whose death will either recruit others to the military cause or cause outrage against Israel across the world. It's a 'win-win' situation for them, which is why the terrorists place so many Palestinians in the line of fire.

(sits back and waits for the spelling troll)
 Stockings and 5ins heels
Joined: 11/3/2006
Msg: 139
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 1:29:55 PM
What you are all forgetting is that its the palestinians land ! taken from them by the Zionists Read your history books!!!!!!!! Bush has stood by! the get!!! Obama will sort the evil Israelis
 NIGEL44
Joined: 11/21/2008
Msg: 140
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 2:00:15 PM
What you are all forgetting is that its the palestinians land ! taken from them by the Zionists Read your history books!!!!!!!!


The land given to hem by international treaty after WWII you mean.


Obama will sort the evil Israelis


Obama will do what the money men say, guess who they are in America?
 Thandor The Redeemer
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 141
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 2:33:27 PM
Thandor is no suporter of the Zionst rule but........The Isralies have never said they want to bomb Arabs of the face of the Earth and drown every man ,woman and child Palistinian.Also as far as Thandor knows ,no Zionist ,let alone Isralie or indeed Jew has tied bombs to their body , ran into a crowded market place and blown themselves up.
Thandor can understand a people wanting to defend themselves.If someone lets say attacks your country with 100 rockets ,you dont send 100 rockets back ,you annihilate the ****ers that sent them,annihilate with extreme predjudice .If innocents get hurt Thandor does not think its anything to do with the side that are defending themselves.
Hezballah and Hammas are reknowned for setting off rockets against Israel from highly populated civilian towns and cities then scream in terror at the dead children lying in the streets killed by an Isralie counter attack.
 Thandor The Redeemer
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 142
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 2:44:11 PM
Hey Stocking and heels
just read your tuppence worth.


What you are all forgetting is that its the palestinians land ! taken from them by the Zionists Read your history books!!!!!!!! Bush has stood by! the get!!! Obama will sort the evil Israelie


Thandor does not agree .The revenue that this war creates for America will mean this war will continue well into the future.So many people think Obama is going to be the answer to so many of the worlds problems and they forget he is President of America, which in Thandors view is not exactly a peaceful country with a compassionate foreign policy.
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 143
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 3:09:31 PM

Obama will do what the money men say, guess who they are in America?


Exactly, whoever got the money can buy justice. I rest my case.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 144
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 3:17:38 PM

Exactly, whoever got the money can buy justice.


Nothing is forever.. the headless feeling of a great power often leads into a self destruction.
 buffcoat
Joined: 8/8/2008
Msg: 145
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 3:30:37 PM
Where have you seen us defending Hamas

all the way through this entire forum thats where you have been defending hamas

i suppose its israel`s fault that you lost your shoes
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 146
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:03:06 PM

Also as far as Thandor knows ,no Zionist ,let alone Isralie or indeed Jew has tied bombs to their body , ran into a crowded market place and blown themselves up.


Thandor isn't wrong. However, this in itself tells you something about the nature of the conflict. If you were the commander of an army would you rather sit in an air conditioned bunker directing missiles to their target or spend your time brainwashing some fvckwit into wanting to spread their body parts over a 500 yard radius?
 Buzzlightbeer
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 147
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:12:22 PM
It is the facts contained therein which are important.


Fact: "Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah." (04/11/08)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

Could you provide the exact date of the violation of the ceasefire in the example you provided?

Here is the link you gave:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/editorials/Hamas+blame+trouble+Gaza/1119488/story.html


So, what does the tank commander do? Ask the terrorist to stop shelling him whilst he nips inside the building for five minutes to check? Call off the advance, and be shelled as he retreats?


Yes the tank commander should have just backed off, there was no immediate threat to the tank or its crew, Hamas doesn't have any shells that would penetrate the tank's armour.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava/


(sits back and waits for the spelling troll)


Like this one that quotes from another thread in desperation and still gets it wrong:



Here's an example of someone spelling this simple word incorrectly:

Err...not really (IMO)..she tells one side of the story.
 shiningblackstar
Joined: 4/22/2006
Msg: 148
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 7:33:44 PM
i think i speak for a lot of people on here; that if the Palestinians had f16's, Apache's,cobra helicopters and stealth bombers and hit israel back as hard as they are being massacred we wouldnt be in this mess.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 149
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/8/2009 2:29:28 AM

Could you provide the exact date of the violation of the ceasefire in the example you provided?


No need to - anyone with a grasp of English will appreciate that a continuing action has occurred:

" Hamas consistently failed to rein in Gaza-based terrorist out-fits such as Islamic Jihad, which has launched intermittent rocket salvos into Israeli territory in recent months. Hamas itself also violated the ceasefire by continuing to smuggle weapons from Egypt and attempting to construct a tunnel across the border with Israel, undoubtedly with the aim of carrying out future attacks or kidnapping Israeli soldiers."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tunnels-ndash-the-secret-weapon-for-hamas-1228140.html

"The fact that these tunnels have played a key role in keeping Hamas in political and military power has made them not only targets of Israeli attacks but also a key issue in any ceasefire. "

For those tunnels to have been a key issue in the ceasefire, they MUST have been in existence at the time the ceasefire was brokered - unless the Israeli government is clairvoyant!

So, the continued use of these tunnels by the Palestinians meant that they were violating the truce from Day One!!

Classic!

The second act of violation took place prior to 5-11-08, according to The Guardian - the use of tunnels for any purpose is contrary to the terms of the truce:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

"The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away."

The first act of violation of the truce by Palestinians (mentioned above) was noted by the Associated Press on 25-6-08 - days after the truce was brokered:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2008/06/25/palestinian_rockets_threaten_truce/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+World+News

"JERUSALEM - Palestinian militants fired three homemade rockets into southern Israel yesterday, threatening to unravel a cease-fire days after it began, and Israel responded by closing vital border crossings into Gaza."

"The midafternoon barrage, which slightly wounded two people, capped a day of violence that presented the truce with its first serious test. Just before midnight, Palestinian militants fired a mortar shell into an empty area in southern Israel. And in a predawn raid, Israeli troops killed two Palestinians, one of them an Islamic Jihad area commander, in the West Bank city of Nablus.

Islamic Jihad, a militant group backed by Syria and Iran, claimed responsibility for the rocket fire from Gaza. Although the West Bank is not included in the truce agreement, the group said the rockets were retaliation for the Nablus raid."

NOTE THE DATE!!

Another website lists violations of the truce by terrorists:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=14&x_article=1577

"From the start of the ceasefire at 6 AM on June 19 till the incident on November 4th cited by CNN, the following attacks were launched against Israel from Gaza in direct violation of the agreement:

* 18 mortars were fired at Israel in this period, beginning on the night of June 23.
* 20 rockets were fired, beginning on June 24, when 3 rockets hit the Israeli town of Sderot.
* On July 6 farmers working in the fields of Nahal Oz were attacked by light arms fire from Gaza.
* On the night of August 15 Palestinians fired across the border at Israeli soldiers near the Karni crossing.
* On October 31 an IDF patrol spotted Palestinians planting an explosive device near the security fence in the area of the Sufa crossing. As the patrol approached the fence the Palestinians fired two anti-tank missiles.

There were two Palestinian attempts to infiltrate from Gaza into Israel apparently to abduct Israelis. Both were major violations of the ceasefire.

• The first came to light on Sept. 28, when Israeli personnel arrested Jamal Atallah Sabah Abu Duabe. The 21-year-old Rafah resident had used a tunnel to enter Egypt and from there planned to slip across the border into Israel. Investigation revealed that Abu Duabe was a member of Hamas’s Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, and that he planned to lure Israeli soldiers near the border by pretending to be a drug smuggler, capture them, and then sedate them with sleeping pills in order to abduct them directly into Gaza through a preexisting tunnel. For more details click here and here.

• The second abduction plan was aborted on the night of Nov 4, thanks to a warning from Israeli Intelligence. Hamas had dug another tunnel into Israel and was apparently about to execute an abduction plan when IDF soldiers penetrated about 250 meters into Gaza to the entrance of the tunnel, hidden under a house. Inside the house were a number of armed Hamas members, who opened fire. The Israelis fired back and the house exploded – in total 6 or 7 Hamas operatives were killed and several were wounded. Among those killed were Mazen Sa’adeh, a Hamas brigade commander, and Mazen Nazimi Abbas, a commander in the Hamas special forces unit. "

All of the above occurred BEFORE 4-11-08!


Yes the tank commander should have just backed off, there was no immediate threat to the tank or its crew, Hamas doesn't have any shells that would penetrate the tank's armour.


Really? Have you any links to support that claim?

A shedload of sites claim otherwise. Here's one which shows that terrorists hide them in school yards - sound familiar?

http://olehgirl.com/?p=1701

"A missile launcher and a number of anti tank missiles were discovered hidden in a Palestinian school yard in Sajalya, northern Gaza Strip, during an IDF operation against terror threats."

That was back in 2005!

How about this one, from 2008? :

http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/updates/08/01/2405.htm

"Last night, IDF forces carried out operations against terrorists in northern and southern Gaza. A Palestinian gunman aimed an anti-tank missile at IDF forces during an operation in northern Gaza in launching areas."

Or how about one during the current truce?:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1225910066599

"IDF units patrolling the border fence with Gaza came under anti-tank missile fire on Saturday evening, the army said. "


What about using intelligence, I know 'military intelligence' is an oxymoron. But isn't Mossad (Israeli secret service) supposed to be the best in the world? Couldn't they be managing the situation to minimise the 'collateral damage'


In a situation involving fighting in such an area, it isn't possible to obtain minute-by-minute updates. Besides, the Israelis know that the terrorists have anti-tank missiles (see above).

If 'military intelligence' is an oxymoron, why did you use the term?

Nice new pic, Wend x
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 150
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/8/2009 2:59:29 AM
Zeegary,

Do you think killing of children is right or wrong? somple yes or no. Don't give me an essay on what you and Israel is saying about hideouts etc etc. Coz UN has already called for an investigation into UN School they bombed despite the fact they were given repeated info on the location. So SIMPLE YES or NO Mr Zeegary.
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