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 diabolikk
Joined: 12/16/2007
Msg: 201
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Gaza MassacrePage 9 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Lothian Girl, normally I don't take much part in forums here and the reason is because there is a distinctive lack of honesty, will to reason and will to accept a different opinion that goes against the liberal-chic tide.

However, sometime it's necessary to debate when one comes across posts like you 244.
It mahy escape you but the American govt is elected by the American people.
It may have escaped you that the American people have re-elected Bush.
So, what exactly does it mean you don't like the American govt but you like Americans? You like what they do as long as it conforms with what you believe and stop liking them when it doesn't? Or maybe you meant you like Democrats and liberals while you don't like Neo-cons and Republicans? Do you know the differences? Do you think Mc Cain, a republican, is more or less left-wing than Hilary Clinton? Do you know that, ideologically, a Democrat is by far much, much worse for an Islamist (or an Islamic simpathiser for what that matters) than a Republican?
Obama has promised a 30 thousand American soldiers surge in Afghanistan: far more than bush ever envisaged; do like Obama now?

Please clarify as your "I don't like the US govt but I like America" is not clear. A govt in a democracy is a reflection of the wills of its majority.

Now let me explain to you my own take.
TheTaliban and Saddam's Iraq were not "friends" of ours but they were tools in a real-politik/Geo-political scenario that saw "us" against "them" (Soviet Russia and Ayatollah Iran).
At the time both the Taliban and Saddam were the lesser evil unless you are willing to forget that Afghanistan was INVADED by the Red Army and that Iran was already back then, a swor enemy of freedom and democracy and by far bigger and more dangerous than Saddam)
Does it means we need to forget the gassing of Kurds? (Muslims) No, it only means first thing first and Saddam's crimes went unforgiven and unforgotten.

And while we are at it; who is gassing who now? I ask because the media are not reportig any gassing in Gaza...

To compare what the Nazis did against what Israel is doing is intellectually dishonest and morally corrupt. Do you know history?
Where do you see concentration camps?
Soap bar made of bones?
Pillows and matress made out of hairs?
Genetic experimentation on people?
Mass systematic murder?
Invasion of half a continent?
Who is more likely to slaughter a gay or a gypsy between an Israeli soldier and an Islamist?

Now, on your last question I ask you: where would you rather live as a woman, as a person? Iran or Israel? Please answer.

ABSKS
I am happy you remember all the times I spent in contradicting your theories and ignoring your insults. You haven't changed. You still refuse to reason and discuss.
My links are only obscure if you chose not to read and judge for yourself. I have no interest in you conforming with my ideas but society has an interest in honest debate.
Try it once, you will benefit.

"give the Palestinians latest weapons so they can fight back and this mess will be over very quickly."
An advocate of the Holocaust?
And ask yourself: Israel has all the very wealthy gulf states around her; all of these states could sponsor a big Palestinian army (instead of buying football clubs in England)...do you know why they don't?
Can it be because they are too tired of the many times Palestinians have been manipulated into refusing to A) Recognise Israel and B) Take a peace dividend?

"10.000 missiles fired into isreal 4 israelis killed wow these evil Palestinians ."
3000 Rockets into Israel since Hamas broke the truce evenctaully triggeed an Israeli response.
"1000 Palestinian women and children butchered in one week who's the terrorist?"
Hamas for
A) Refusing to live in peace
B) Hamas for staging attacks from within populated areas of Palestine
C) Hamas for deliberately exposing their populatio to war by continously ingnoring the many peace processes started by all and sundry.
D) Hamas for attacking Fatah, killing hudreds of Palestinians and introducing Islamic law against the will of its population.
E) Hamas for having in its charter the destruction of Israel.
F) Hamas for killing Egyptian border guards thereby making Egypt another enemy of their cause.

Try thinking Absks, it helps forming an opinion based on fact.
 Fuzzy_Duck
Joined: 9/11/2005
Msg: 202
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History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 5:33:33 AM
Kinnell Gaz.
You seem to be really naiive!! Or you are just ignorant or quite bias? Do you really think that the Israelis do not know where the "safe" houses are, where the aggressors are launching their rockets, where the underground "passages" for bombs and weapons are?
Mossad have plenty of peeps in the know. Fingers on the pulse. Plenty of knowledge about what is happening and by whom. They are more organised than just periodically bombing or destroying areas of the Gaza Strip. Yes, innocent and civilian people are going to die. But, they are being killed on both sides. Fact of life in wars. I do not condone what is happening. I also disagree with a lot of what is happening and wish peace could be achieved.
However, I also feel that the preaching of Hamas is also a severe threat to the rest of the world. We have seen enough suicide bombers and unfortunately, they seem to be one of the tutors who support this action.
Just an observation, not a criticism.

Steve
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 203
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 6:13:10 AM
I am really surprised the no one mentioned that Hamas actually was created by Israel

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z6vMAoFwf4


Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO).
 diabolikk
Joined: 12/16/2007
Msg: 204
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History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 6:29:32 AM
Alma,

Israel didn't create Hamas; just like the lesser evil concept, Israel made the mistake to see Hamas as a dis-unifying force in Palestinian politics. The old divide and conquer and hence facilitated Hamas growth. The idea was to dilute antagonism and reach peace through a psition of superiority. It failed.

However, this is the same real-politik mistake that Neville Chamberlain did by appeasing, thereby strenghtening, Nazi Germany against Soviet Russia with the consequences we all know.
The dear-old, dear-old two mistakes don't make a right.

Israel is no stranger to mistakes.
The US and Europe are no strangers either.
Russia has pandered to Arab nationalsm since the fall of its own empire. Tables turned and now ex-"friends" to us are new deadly foes...does this mean we shouldn't defend ourselves? That Israel has no right to exist? That Hamas hated introuction of Islamic law in the territories should be just accepted? Because they won democratic elections? Hitler won elections too...does this validate Nazism?

There are no innocents in this war but there are parties less guilty than others.
Fatah is less guilty than Hamas. Israel is less guilty that both.
All of them are less guilty tat the EU and its cowardice; at least the US take a clear stance.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 205
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 6:58:54 AM
Also it is very strange that BBC did not report about the 10 000 people demonstrating against the war in Israel

Saturday 03/01/09
MASSIVE DEMONSTRATION AGAINST THE WAR + continuing protest
Preparing to start: hoisting the big Gush Shalom transparent
photo gallery

[Now also on Social TV]

At the same time as Ehud Barak was ordering the army to start the bloody ground offensive against Gaza, some ten thousand protesters from all over Israel marched in Tel-Aviv in a massive demonstration against the war. All four lanes of Ibn Gvirol St., one of the city's main throughfares, were packed full of demonstrators who marched the two kilometres from the Rabin Square to the Cinemateque, chanting and waving banners all the way.

“One does not build an election campaign over the dead bodies of children!” shouted the protesters in Hebrew rhymes. “Orphans and widows are not election propaganda!”, “Olmert, Livni and Barak – war is no game!”’ “All cabinet ministers are war criminals!!” Barak, Barak, don’t worry – we shall meet you in The Hague!”, “Enough, enough – speak with Hamas!”

The written posters were similar. Some of them paraphrased Barak’s election slogans: “Barak is not friendly, he is a murderer!” (The original Barak slogan says: “Barak is not friendly, he is a leader!”) Also: “No to the Election War, 2009!” and “The six-Knesset-seat war!” – an allusion to the polls which showed that in the first days of the war Barak’s Labor Party has gained six prospective seats.

The demonstration took place after a fight with the police, which tried to prevent or at least limit it, arguing that they would not be able to stop right-wing rioters from attacking it. Among other things, the police demanded that the organizers undertake to prevent the hoisting of Palestinian flags. The organizers petitioned the High Court of Justice, which decided that the Palestinian flag is legal and ordered the police to protect the demonstration from rioters,

The demonstration was decided upon by Gush Shalom and 20 other peace organizations, including the Women’s Coalition for Peace, Anarchists Against the Wall, Hadash, the Alternative Information Center and New Profile. Meretz and Peace Now did not participate officially, but many of their members showed up. Some thousand Arab citizens from the north arrived in 20 buses straight from the big demonstration of the Arab public which had taken place in Sakhnin.

The organizers themselves were surprised by the large number of protesters. “A week after the start of Lebanon War II, we succeeded in mobilizing only 1000 demonstrators against it. The fact that today there came 10,000 proves that the opposition to the war is much stronger this time. If Barak goes on with his plans, public opinion may completely turn against the war in a few days.”

The giant Gush Shalom banner said in Hebrew, Arabic and English: “Stop Killing! Stop the Siege! Stop the occupation!” The slogan of the demonstration called for the end of the blockade and an immediate cease-fire.

On the day of the protest, the extreme Right mobilized their forces in order to break up the demonstration by force. The police made a great effort to prevent riots, and the one-mile march from Rabin Square to Cinematheque Square proceeded relatively quietly. However, when the protesters started to disperse, in accordance with the agreement with the police, a large crowd of rightists started to attack them. The police, which till then had been keeping the two camps apart, disappeared from the scene. The rioters then encircled the last of the protesters, harassing them, pushing them about and at a certain point started to besiege the Cinematheque building, where some of the last protesters had found refuge. They tried to break into the building, threatening to “finish off” the protesters, but at the last moment some police arrived and protected the entrance. The rioters stayed around for a long time.

Circumstances made it impossible to hold the planned public rally at the end of the march. No speeches were made. Here is a translation of the speech Uri Avnery was about to make on behalf of Gush Shalom:

They tell us
We are traitors.
They tell us
We are destroyers of Israel.
They tell us
We are criminals.

But we tell them:
The criminals are those
Who started this
Criminal and unnecessary war!

An unnecessary war
Because it was possible
To stop the Qassams
By the government
stopping the blockade
On the million and a half
Inhabitants of Gaza.

A criminal war
Because, on top of everything else
It is openly and shamelessly
Part of Ehud Barak’s and Tzipi Livni’s
Election campaign

I accuse Ehud Barak
Of exploiting the IDF soldiers
In order to get more Knesset seats.

I accuse Tzipi Livni
Of advocating mutual slaughter
In order to become
Prime Minister.

I accuse Ehud Olmert
Of trying to cover up
Rot and corruption
With a disastrous war.

I call upon them
From this tribune,
On behalf of this
Courageous and decent audience:
Stop the war at once!
Stop shedding the blood of
Our soldiers and civilians for nothing!
Stop shedding the blood
Of the inhabitants of Gaza!

The ground invasion
Will cause
An additional disaster,
A mutual massacre
And even more
Terrible war crimes!

At the end of this war
No general
Will be able to set foot
On European soil
Without fear of being arrested
For war crimes.
We are told
That there is no alternative.
Not true!!!
A cease-fire is possible even now,
Yes, this very minute,
If we agree to lift
The murderous siege,
If we allow the Gaza people
To live in dignity,
If we talk with Hamas.

I wish to address
The people of the South,
The people of Sderot,
Ashdod and Beersheba:
We know your anguish –
Even though we don’t live with you,
We know well.
But we also know
That this war
Will not change your situation.
The politicians exploit you,
The politicians conduct a war
On your back.
You too know that!

I call upon
Olmert, Barak and Livni:
Do not send the soldiers into the Strip!
All three of you will be accused of war crimes!
All three of you will pay the price!

The masses in Israel
Saluting you now
Will punish you tomorrow.
That happened in the
Second Lebanon War
That will happen
Again this time!

And YOU who are standing here,
Women and men,
Young and old,
Jews and Arabs,
YOU who have protested
Against this horrible war
From the first day,
From the first minute,
Isolated and cursed –
YOU are the real heroes!

You can be proud,
Very proud,
Because you stand in the middle
Of a hurricane of hysteria and ignorance,
And are not swept away by it!
You are retaining your sanity,
Not only at home
But here, in the street!

Millions around the world see you,
Salute you,
Salute each one of you.

As a human being,
As an Israeli,
As a seeker of peace,
I am proud
To be here today.

---

9.1.09
Arab-Jewish Protest in Jaffa

Two hours after the shelling of the school in Jebaliyah, in which 40 refuge-seekers, including entire families, were murdered, an Arab-Jewish protest against the war took place in Jaffa (Tuesday, 6.1). It was one of the many demonstrations against the war which take place practically every day now throughout Israel.

The hundreds of Arab Israeli citizens gathered in Yephet Street, following a call by Zedaaka organization and the Jaffa list. They where joined by Jewish protesters - activists of Gush Shalom, Anarchists Against the Wall, the Women’s Coalition for Peace, and others. The Arab protesters turned their anger especially against the leaders of the Arab countries, who were accused of collaborating with the Israeli onslaught on Gaza. One recurring slogan was “Mubarak is an agent of the United States and Israel”.

Several of the Arab and Jewish demonstrators held aloft the Gush Shalom emblem showing the flags of Israel and Palestine next to each other. Others hoisted a poster saying in Hebrew: “Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies!” The most popular slogans were: “Barak, Barak, Minister of Defense – how many children have you murdered until today?” and “All the government ministers are war criminals”. The posters said in Arabic and Hebrew: “Stop the War Crimes”, “Widows and orphans are not election".

the video from the demonstrations can be seen here:
http://www.tv.social.org.il/medini/stv-aza-oferet-3-1-09.htm

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/events/1231029668
 matty40s
Joined: 10/17/2008
Msg: 206
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 7:07:43 AM
Thanks for that new angle Alma, just shows that the people are as fed up with it as everyone else, just the politicians and military keep it going on both sides.

we await zeegary's response.......................
 diabolikk
Joined: 12/16/2007
Msg: 207
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History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 7:07:46 AM
Reading the above, are you not happy to defend Israel even more?

Surely such a beautyful expression of democracy needs defending?

Nothing even remotely similar is happening in Arab countries: why would that be?
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 208
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 7:38:52 AM
Today there was an anti war rally in London too with 100 000 people attending


Thousands march in London protesting Israeli attacks in Gaza

* Ben Quinn
* guardian.co.uk, Saturday 10 January 2009 13.49 GMT

Thousands of demonstrators poured into Hyde Park today for a mass rally against the Israeli military offensive in Gaza.

As a thick frost covered the ground on one of the coldest days of the year, Speakers' Corner was turned into a sea of Palestinian flags and banners condemning Israel.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/10/gaza-protest-march-london-hyde-park

And interestingly some countries do send humanitarian aid to Gaza despite the continuous bombing.


Another Gaza boat to sail from Cyprus
By STAFF REPORTER 10.JAN.09
Cyprus is once again proving to be an important humanitarian go-between, as a mission is being organized from the island to Gaza.

Thirty people will be taking part in the mission, among them doctors and MPs from Greece and the United States, as well as a member of the Israeli Knesset.


Members of the mission met at noon with House Speaker Marios Karoyian, who once again condemned Israeli attacks against Palestinian civilians.

Mr Karoyian also sent the message that the ship is carrying humanitarian aid, mainly medicines and Israeli forces should allow it through.

It is expected to sail from Larnaca port either tomorrow afternoon or Monday morning at the latest.

http://www.famagusta-gazette.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=69&twindow=&mad=&sdetail=
7224&wpage=1&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=
&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=
&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=
&subname=&pform=&sc=2350&hn=famagusta-gazette&he=.com
 diabolikk
Joined: 12/16/2007
Msg: 209
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History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 8:08:33 AM
One question though.

Palestinians have been receiving the world's donations for the best part of 30 years.

Billions upon billions. I can't think of anothr nation that received as much.

Where's all the money gone?
 Buzzlightbeer
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 210
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 8:09:44 AM



It bombed a potential nuclear armament factory in Iraq.


Incorrect, it bombed the Osirak 'nuclear reactor'.


Do I really have to supply a definition of the words "potential" and "provoked"?


No just 'factory' and 'reactor', but I will do it for you with our good friend the OED:

Factory: a building where goods are manufactured or assembled chiefly by machine.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/factory?view=uk

Reactor: an apparatus or structure in which fissile material can be made to undergo a controlled, self-sustaining nuclear reaction releasing energy.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxactor?view=uk

My statement is correct, yours is incorrect.

Correct: free from error; true; right.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/correct?view=uk

Incorrect: not in accordance with fact or standards; wrong.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/incorrect?view=uk

 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 211
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History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 8:40:25 AM
Going into Birmingham City Centre this morning, we drove past a wall that had been graffitied with the slogan 'Free Gaza' and a picture of a hand holding the Palestinian flag with another holding a gun .. And underneath 'Freedom or death for Palestinians' ...
 Humbum
Joined: 1/3/2008
Msg: 212
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 9:13:13 AM
Post 230... Today there was an anti war rally in London too with 100 000 people attending.. Is that a fact ???

"Organisers were **expecting** more than 100,000 people " Guardian/BBC

"The Stop The War coalition, which organised today's demonstration, said that **it believed** as many as 100,000 people were taking part in the rallies at Hyde Park and also in Kensington Park Gardens" ... Yeah whatever

"The march has been organised by groups including Stop the War Coalition, the British Muslim Initiative and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign"

"Metropolitan Police says 12,000 are taking part"

Hardly a representative endorsement of mainstream Britain
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 213
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 9:27:15 AM
Hardly a representative endorsement of mainstream Britain


Oh, who cares about the numbers. This is UK, not Israel!
12 000 anti war people is also good enough to voice an opinion.

War is a bad thing for civilians and soldiers especially those who will die, is it???

It is not a computer game, FGS!

War is good only for war profiteers !

 Dandy Highwayman
Joined: 8/15/2008
Msg: 214
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 10:01:44 AM

"The Stop The War coalition, which organised today's demonstration, said that **it believed** as many as 100,000 people were taking part in the rallies at Hyde Park and also in Kensington Park Gardens" ... Yeah whatever

"The march has been organised by groups including Stop the War Coalition, the British Muslim Initiative and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign"

"Metropolitan Police says 12,000 are taking part"

Hardly a representative endorsement of mainstream Britain


These figures are always disputed, the police always say there were less on whatever demonstration it so happens to be.
The mainstream press particulary the BBC is biased towards the government,why?
Well its because the government have the BBC over a barrel, its a case of report what makes 'us' look best or we will abolish the license fee, then you will have to be a commercial enterprise. The BBC know that in a commercial market they would not be viable and would quickly become obsolete.
The press in general always ignore the liberal, or social viewpoint so as to marganlise it, and leave the voice of opposition shouting in room that is sound proofed, for fear of the voice and sense it talks being heard.
It is so important to seak out the other sides of any argument, only then can you have a rounded view of the truth and base your opinions on the facts as you see them, and not rely on the reports from mainstream media which always have there own agenda.

TheDandy
 Humbum
Joined: 1/3/2008
Msg: 215
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/10/2009 10:50:09 AM
"Oh, who cares about the numbers"

Not so you...

Minorities dictating/thinking/claiming they represent the majority sounds like dictatorship...

Democracy is not a right, but a gift given to us by those who stood up to the dictator and for many, they gave the ultmate sacrifice of their life...

"War is a bad thing" not necessarily, yielding to a dictator could be worst for civilians and soldiers .. Vietnam/Cambodia genocide after US withdrawal...

Yes I do care about numbers especially when they're distorted for furthering political ideology...
 diabolikk
Joined: 12/16/2007
Msg: 216
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History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 2:59:31 AM
Alma,

"Oh, who cares about the numbers. This is UK, not Israel!"
Sorry, what do you mean this is the UK and not Israel? Israel IS the only democracy in the Middle East, did you know that?

"12 000 anti war people is also good enough to voice an opinion."
True. But not enough to change a policy.

"War is a bad thing for civilians and soldiers especially those who will die, is it???"
War is far worse for the many more that would die without the soldier's sacrifice to defend them.

"It is not a computer game, FGS!"
So don't treat it like one.

"War is good only for war profiteers !"
...and the winners.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 217
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 3:53:37 AM
Oh I am sorry not interested to go into a deeper conversation on this, not so hot about any similar subject,I am not paid or brainwashed to promote anyone's interest.

My stance is simple: IMO nobody has a right to take the civilian life, call it 'collateral damage' or whatever and in interest of nothing.And whoever does it should be taken to international court, same as done with Saddam or with generals in Bosnian conflict.

No civilian life of one nation is worth more than a civilian life of other nation. No matter who you are and how much money or Army machinery either nation has. Full stop.

Once Israely generals are taken to Haag and the generals who ordered bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki and similar then we can talk a fair play and about the REAL DEMOCRACY.

Otherwise demcracy is a b***t , same as so called terrorism and war on terror, designed to scare people, manipulate them and control them.


"War is good only for war profiteers !"
...and the winners.


IMO there is no difference between those !
Wars are and have always been for a profit.. dominance which brings profit etc.. but some of them have been presented different to the people who have to support it or agree of going to a war.
 ardentx
Joined: 12/27/2008
Msg: 218
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 4:53:25 AM
It is truly astonishing how ill informed the majority are. Rocket attacks are not reported unless there is a response from Israel but every operation Israel commences, is reported right away. So straight off the bat, the majority just see Israel Invading Gaza, which is simply not the case.

Get this Zionist crap out of your head because Israel does not run the world, they sat around for longer enough taking rocket attacks and eventually decided to do something about it. Kudos to them, if France started throwing rockets into Dover and the area around it, what would you expect the British government to do, nothing ?

Israel is doing nothing but surviving, it isn't fighting a country here, it is fighting a political party that is not going to ever want peace, because they firmly believe Israel should not even exist. This is the proper response to route a political party that is simply not compatible with the middle east, they are causing trouble not just for them selves and Israel, but the wider Middle East and it's neighbours.

Civilians get killed that is just part of the war, and that is amplified when you sit shooting rockets out of a public school, guilty by association comes to mind, if you don't want to become a target, then stand up and say "get out of my house".

This is not Israel, it's about Hamas, how they are committed to an Ideology that expects nor wants peace with Israel, that believes Israel should not exist and Israel being wiped off the map is consistently part of their manifesto.

I would be blunt and say Israel is the only civilised place in that entire area, and when your surrounded by people that are committed to seeing you die, then you have to bear arms and show them that any attempt at attacking a UN SANCTIONED, INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNISED state is a rather large mistake.

Until Islam in that region learns to respect others and treats others as it wishes to be treated, stops using religion as an excuse to blow up cars and buildings in Israel, as an excuse to shoot border guards, as an excuse to blow up markets in Iraq, as an excuse to punish victims of rape rather than the rapist themselves, as an excuse to stone children to death in the street because of who she spoke to and so on, then Israel has the right to be using a Aggressive Defence Doctrine, if no one in invading, then how to you stop them ? you take the fight to them.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 219
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 5:15:41 AM
I am sorry but killings of big number of children and civilians IMO cannot be justified in any way and in history books this is classified as 'people cleansing' and will result the normal Israelis being hated in the world for actions of their army and their leaders.

Leading British Jews have today called for the stop of the massacre:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/11/gaza-israel-letter-british-jews


The message from Poland protests says it all:

We lived through the same thing in 1939, when a visionary got the appetite for more land,' said protestor Antoni Brzeziucha. 'They lived through the Holocaust themselves, and now they're doing the same thing: killing innocent woman and children.'
 NIGEL44
Joined: 11/21/2008
Msg: 220
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 7:07:03 AM

We lived through the same thing in 1939, when a visionary got the appetite for more land,' said protestor Antoni Brzeziucha. 'They lived through the Holocaust themselves, and now they're doing the same thing: killing innocent woman and children.'


But the circumstances are very different. Poland didn't fire into Germany to start with in 1939. Hamas have been and continue to fire rockets into Israel.

Ideally a ceasefire would be good, but it has to be on both sides. If Hamas say they wont stop then I cannot blame Israel for continuing either.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 221
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History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 7:38:00 AM

No just 'factory' and 'reactor', but I will do it for you with our good friend the OED:

Factory: a building where goods are manufactured or assembled chiefly by machine.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/factory?view=uk

Reactor: an apparatus or structure in which fissile material can be made to undergo a controlled, self-sustaining nuclear reaction releasing energy.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxactor?view=uk


Thanks, but I knew what all those words meant, which is why I use them correctly all the time.

So, when I stated that Israel had bombed "a potential nuclear armament factory in Iraq" , I was merely echoing the thoughts of a prominent Israeli politician who knows far more than I do about these matters.

As for whether or not my statement was "correct", I'll settle for the fact that Ehud Barak's words matched those of mine - I' ll take HIS opinion on that reactor over anybody else's!


HTH


It does seem to be the real world equivalent of the little first former running up to the fifth former with his fingers in his ears going "na na na naaa na", only to find that he, his friends and anybody standing near him are beaten to a bloody pulp.


Pathetic comparison from one who should know better.




12 000 anti war people is also good enough to voice an opinion.


Did anybody else notice that the only violence at the rally came from the Arabs?

How ironic!


 Chiny®™©
Joined: 7/2/2006
Msg: 222
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History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 8:24:37 AM
Something not many of us knew, HAMAS is a creation of ISRAEL to counter Yasser Arafat and his PLO.

See, Presidential Candidate Ron Paul make the allegation in a speech in the US Congress, http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/528.html
But now that Hamas has been so successful against the PLO, even getting democratically elected into office in opposition to the PLO.............we need to KILL them!

“Gaza; The Killing Zone” see http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/515.html

See also “The Truth from Israel”. The youth of Israel speak out! http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/509.html
 Buzzlightbeer
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 223
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 8:47:04 AM

Ideally a ceasefire would be good, but it has to be on both sides.


Indeed, with no pre-emptive strikes by either side so it can be clearly seen who breaks the new ceasefire.







It bombed a potential nuclear armament factory in Iraq.


Incorrect, it bombed the Osirak 'nuclear reactor'.


Do I really have to supply a definition of the words "potential" and "provoked"?


No just 'factory' and 'reactor', but I will do it for you with our good friend the OED:

Factory: a building where goods are manufactured or assembled chiefly by machine.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/factory?view=uk

Reactor: an apparatus or structure in which fissile material can be made to undergo a controlled, self-sustaining nuclear reaction releasing energy.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxactor?view=uk


Thanks, but I knew what all those words meant, which is why I use them correctly all the time.

So, when I stated that Israel had bombed "a potential nuclear armament factory in Iraq" , I was merely echoing the thoughts of a prominent Israeli politician who knows far more than I do about these matters.

As for whether or not my statement was "correct", I'll settle for the fact that Ehud Barak's words matched those of mine - I' ll take HIS opinion on that reactor over anybody else's!


"Ehud Barak writing in 2002:

"Those who prefer to wait and hope for the best should contemplate the following: no one really knows how close Saddam Hussein is to building a crude nuclear device -- and it was a crude device that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Few will doubt Mr. Hussein's readiness to use a nuclear weapon against American assets or against Israel, if only under extreme circumstances. Once Iraq becomes a nuclear power, the very decision to go to war against it would become a totally different ball game.

If Saddam Hussein is allowed to cheat the inspectors and the world for another year or two, we might end up making an unforgivable mistake. We in Israel have already been through this. Prime Minister Menachem Begin ordered the destruction of an Iraqi nuclear reactor near Baghdad in 1981. This action delayed an Iraqi bomb by at least 15 years. The whole world condemned Israel -- only to realize later how farsighted it had been. Saddam Hussein now is much more cautious. His military-nuclear infrastructure is geographically spread out and protected to avoid a repetition of the 1981 defeat."


But they didn't match, he called it a 'reactor' not a 'factory', however I am pleased to see you have now confirmed that the Israelis attacked a 'reactor' and not a 'factory', and that it was incorrect to call it a 'factory'.


Something not many of us knew, HAMAS is a creation of ISRAEL to counter Yasser Arafat and his PLO.


It is funny how things turn out...
 jebuspebus
Joined: 10/15/2008
Msg: 224
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 9:05:50 AM
Just to counter some of the woefully misguided, ill-conceived zeegary/diabolikk-type of nonsense, there's a good article from Middle East commentator, Robert Fisk here: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-do-they-hate-the-west-so-much-we-will-ask-1230046.html

Twenty Israelis dead in 10 years around Gaza is a grim figure indeed. But 600 Palestinians dead in just over a week, thousands over the years since 1948 – when the Israeli massacre at Deir Yassin helped to kick-start the flight of Palestinians from that part of Palestine that was to become Israel – is on a quite different scale. This recalls not a normal Middle East bloodletting but an atrocity on the level of the Balkan wars of the 1990s. And of course, when an Arab bestirs himself with unrestrained fury and takes out his incendiary, blind anger on the West, we will say it has nothing to do with us. Why do they hate us, we will ask? But let us not say we do not know the answer.

also worth a look;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231692993&sr=8-6

and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Reality-Israel-Palestine-Conflict-Norman-Finkelstein/dp/1859844421/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1231693679&sr=1-1




Also:

VIGIL FOR GAZA
A round the clock vigil every day in Parliament Square, London

24 hours a day...

STOP THE MASSACRE, ISRAEL OUT OF GAZA, END THE BLOCKADE

Supported by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign

Vigil for Gaza welcomes all who wish to peacefully protest against the
blockade of Gaza and the current assault on its people by Israel. The
vigil is a space to gather, speak, bear witness, pray, meditate, sing or
otherwise demonstrate that we find this situation unacceptable.

Join the vigil at any time in Parliament Square, London for as short or
as long a time as you can.

In order that as many people as possible feel able to participate in the
vigil, it is covered by authorisation to demonstrate under the Serious
Organised Crime and Police Act 2005.

For further information on the vigil, contact vigilforgaza@gmail.com or
see www.vigilforgaza.net. For more campaign information see
http://www.palestinecampaign.org/


 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 225
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 1:04:22 PM

But they didn't match, he called it a 'reactor' not a 'factory', however I am pleased to see you have now confirmed that the Israelis attacked a 'reactor' and not a 'factory', and that it was incorrect to call it a 'factory'.


Neither Barak nor I described the reactor as a 'factory'!

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I hope I didn't have to provide a definition of the word "potential"

Sadly, in order to explain my use of the word, I'll use the OED definition:

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/potential?view=uk

"having the capacity to develop into something in the future."

You even quoted my words ( MSG s 209, 220, and 234) without understanding the 'potential' aspect of it:

"It bombed a potential nuclear armament factory in Iraq."

Barak and I both acknowledged that the reactor existed, and that it wasn't a factory producing nuclear weapons. Barak accepted that the bombing of the reactor "delayed" the creation of saddam's first nuclear bomb. Both he and I agree that the reactor had the potential to BECOME a 'factory', and that Israel was right to take preventative measures.

If it helps, I never use words if I don't know what they mean....


This recalls not a normal Middle East bloodletting but an atrocity on the level of the Balkan wars of the 1990s. And of course, when an Arab bestirs himself with unrestrained fury and takes out his incendiary, blind anger on the West, we will say it has nothing to do with us. Why do they hate us, we will ask? But let us not say we do not know the answer.


It's a shame that Mr. Fisk, in groping around to find some atrocity with which to compare Israel's action against Palestinian aggression, forgot what he wrote about Syria's action against Islamic terrorists in Hama, 1982:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

"The goal of the attack on Hama was to halt the rebellious activities of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood. The assault began on February 2 with extensive shelling of the town of 350 000 inhabitants. Before the attack, the Syrian government called for the city's surrender and warned that anyone remaining in the city would be considered as a rebel. Robert Fisk in his book Pity the Nation described how civilians were fleeing Hama while tanks and troops were moving towards the city's outskirts to start the siege. He cites reports of mass death and shortages of food and water from fleeing civilians and from soldiers .[2]

According to Amnesty International, the Syrian military bombed the old streets of the city from the air to facilitate the introduction of military forces and tanks through the narrow streets, where homes were crushed by tanks during the first four days of fighting. They also claim that the Syrian military pumped poison gas into buildings where insurgents were said to be hiding.......Journalist Robert Fisk, who was in Hama shortly after the massacre, estimated fatalities as high as 10,000."

Note how the Syrians shelled the town whilst the civilians were still there, and used poison gas in buildings irrespective of whether they were gassing insurgents or civilians.


Vigil for Gaza welcomes all who wish to peacefully protest against the
blockade of Gaza and the current assault on its people by Israel.


Peacefully?




It is truly astonishing how ill informed the majority are. Rocket attacks are not reported unless there is a response from Israel but every operation Israel commences, is reported right away. So straight off the bat, the majority just see Israel Invading Gaza, which is simply not the case.

Get this Zionist crap out of your head because Israel does not run the world, they sat around for longer enough taking rocket attacks and eventually decided to do something about it. Kudos to them, if France started throwing rockets into Dover and the area around it, what would you expect the British government to do, nothing ?


I get your point about the reporting. We've already had one poster (MSG 175) who dismissed Israeli eye-witness reports as :

" An Israeli claim, no 'proof'"

Quite what 'proof' he requires wasn't specified - the same poster also refused to believe the claims of a bunch of terrorists (MSG 191). It demonstrates that there are some who will disregard ANY information supplied to them which counters their own beliefs, even if made by the side they clearly support!
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