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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/12/2009 5:55:23 PM | | Do people think all those celebrities you see in magazines, tv, and movies don't all wear some kind of undergarments that make them look better? So, why can't we common folk look good in our clothes too? There are just some outfits that need certain undergarments to enhance the style. I guess when you have reached the point of not caring what you look like then by all means, dont where them! As far as men go, maybe they should try a few of these items themselves! lol! | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/12/2009 6:08:04 PM | I agree that wearing make up is in the same boat. It is hiding or covering up or disguising what is really underneath.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with make up or those body shaper things but it is what it is...... tasteful deception....
And the body shaper things, what ever happened to good old fashion exercise & watching how much one eats ? 
Peace | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/12/2009 7:46:18 PM |
It is hiding or covering up or disguising what is really underneath.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with make up or those body shaper things but it is what it is...... tasteful deception....
And the body shaper things, what ever happened to good old fashion exercise & watching how much one eats ?
It reminds me of when I returned to school. I did really well without studying. One day I had an epiphany... I realized I could do even better if I applied myself. IMO grooming is no different. Makeup doesn't disguise my features - its not applied with a trowel. Makeup accentuates my features. My skin looks smoother, my eyes brighter, and my lips fuller. It is the siren's call, but I also feel more confident in my skin with brighter plumage. My looks are cultivated to express how I perceive my inner self to be and also to make the most of what I have.
Proper foundations under my clothing are just that... foundations. They help me build the look I want to project. I would no sooner wear a dress that was see through than one that clung in the wrong places. Sure some of it is enhancement, but a lot of it is modesty - they make slips for a reason. They make smoothers, stomachers, girdles, and yeah - corsets for a reason. Ditto bras. I'm just not comfortable letting it all hang out or jiggle. Some chicks don't mind - I know most men don't mind... unless it was their girlfriend or wife... and then it would depend where and when.
A burlap sack could look good with the right undergarments... okay that and a few accessories. | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/12/2009 8:12:33 PM | Isn't this a question of intent?? If you wear these things to feel better about yourself then go ahead. If you are doing it to look better to a potential mate then it's deceptive.
But isn't the marketing of these items generally preying upon your own insecurities?? Or they're marketed toward the deception mentioned above.
One thing is for sure from my point of view. It's a turn on to see an attractive woman. But it's a much bigger turn off to feel deceived when she unveils it all & she's sprawled out like an emergency life raft that someone just pulled the chord on.
My last thought is this. Take the money that you would spend on these items & invest it in a gym membership or yoga or pilates classes. You'll end up feeling better about the person in the mirror in the process.  | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/12/2009 8:55:03 PM | Makeup doesn't disguise my features - Makeup accentuates my features. My skin looks smoother, my eyes brighter, and my lips fuller.
Like I previously said.... and like you yourself just stated.... makes your skin " look" and your eyes " look" and your lips " look" BUT in a way which they naturally do not look..... it is tasteful deception for the sole purpose of attempting to (temporarily) improve ones natural born appearance....just like a girdle "temporarily" improves ones natural born appearance. ( until they take it off and willy the whale plops out) :)
One can change, add, " accentuate", and/or apply a cosmetic, which is a superficial application of various coloring agents, toners, eyeliners, fillers, etc. etc, to give the "appearance" what your skin or lips or eyes lack naturally or cannot achieve on their own.
Just like hair color that hides the gray.......the gray hair is still there...... but cosmetically, it is now hidden or covered up... Very few accentuate their gray hair.... vast, vast majority hide or cover/color their gray hair....... or wrinkles, or facial lines, or off color skin, pale lips, weak eye lashes and the list goes on
You may use any word you choose...in your case you chose "accentuate" . This is merely a play of words and to some degree denial. What is the difference between a used car and a pre owned car ? Aside from a play of words............There is Absolutely no difference.
Like I said....I feel there is nothing wrong with make up......I like my women with a little bit of make up.....but lets cut the horse poop....... it is what it is.... and that is, it is cosmetic in nature.........better known as tasteful deception......
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/13/2009 6:26:50 PM | BEHOLD! We've now 'uncovered' the reason that people think they need to wear these things.....good god man. Sounds more like a post-mortem.....
Perhaps I'm just uncharacteristically-attentive for my gender, but I scrutinize the opposite sex constantly - any woman I meet is scanned from head to toe, from the slenderness of her ankles up to the coif of her hair. I breathe it all in while making acute mental notes of each imperfection/suspect area I come across. All this gets tallied up in my 5 second cursory inspection of her physique.
Anyhoo, all these shaper things are good if they make you feel more confident in how you look in an outfit....I've tried them in the past and they sometimes remind me of trying to put toothpaste back in its tube or a sleeping bag back in it's carry-bag. However I love corsets, simply for how they look.
I don't think anyone is intending to 'fool' someone with a push-up bra, etc. And despite what some ads might say, a shaper isn't going to take you down 4 sizes. It just doesn't, it's fabric. You aren't going to take it off and go from looking like Heidi Klum to Mrs.Doubtfire. 
Whichever way you see it, I think it's just another thing that people use to feel and look good at times. Makeup, hairstyles, shaving your legs, manicures, using deodorant, whitening your teeth......etc. Do what makes you happy. 
Hmm what about guys that are losing their hair and decide to shave their heads? Is that lying? Same kinda thing......I mean you can TELL where their hairline really ends....just like you can tell where my waist ends and my hips begin......and yet hey, still looks good to me! | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/13/2009 7:41:42 PM |
Like I said....I feel there is nothing wrong with make up....better known as tasteful deception......
So then why imply otherwise? I paint my walls with bright colours 'cuz I like it... but I always fill the holes and sand first. If I think I (shiite - can't capitalize it for emphasis) if I feel the lines on a dress are improved by a good foundation or that the dress looks better on me with a slip - what's it to you? Some of us are more sensitive to aesthetics than others... you might like brown shoes with a black suit - oh, the horror... I think my eyes look better with mascara and last I checked mascara was not an indictable offence or grounds for the bunco squad.
You may use any word you choose...in your case you chose "accentuate" . This is merely a play of words and to some degree denial. What is the difference between a used car and a pre owned car ? Aside from a play of words............There is Absolutely no difference.
If you can't tell the difference between a used car and a push up bra, you got bigger problems than aesthetics. Accentuate would be to get the car detailed. Denial would be rolling back the odometer. Big diff. And I never, ever claim to be a natural beauty... heck, my idea of roughing it is a weekend without makeup. We all have visuals and methods of expression that appeal to our inner and creative self. | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/13/2009 8:15:21 PM | Good Lord you've got to love the selective quoting from some people, it's funny that the opening paragraph of my first post in this thread gets used to fan the flames, minus the clarification sentences that immediately followed:
Piece #1 of my first post:
Perhaps I'm just uncharacteristically-attentive for my gender, but I scrutinize the opposite sex constantly - any woman I meet is scanned from head to toe, from the slenderness of her ankles up to the coif of her hair. I breathe it all in while making acute mental notes of each imperfection/suspect area I come across. All this gets tallied up in my 5 second cursory inspection of her physique.
Piece #2 of my 1st post (DIRECTLY after piece #1, but "conveniently omitted" by Eir):
However that evaluation is but an automatic formality in my mental courtship process, and all it does is answer: (1) whether I'd sleep with her or not, and (2) an initial speculation on her personality (any implied insecurities due to things she's trying to conceal or detract attention from).
Quoting with context people, see how failing to do that distorts things? 
As for your last astute query:
Hmm what about guys that are losing their hair and decide to shave their heads? Is that lying? Same kinda thing......I mean you can TELL where their hairline really ends....just like you can tell where my waist ends and my hips begin......and yet hey, still looks good to me!
I do indeed shave my head, but I put "Black with no hair" in my profile description, and freely joke about the fact I'm bald. So it's a moot issue in my case, though I fully agree a man attempting a comb-over or toupee is just as prevalent a deception in society...  | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/13/2009 9:32:17 PM | So then why imply otherwise?
I am not. You are. I am calling it for what it is. You are attempting to imply it as something otherwise.
If you can't tell the difference between a used car and a push up bra, you got bigger problems than aesthetics.
You completely missed the point. I was using an analogy about playing with words. You were using accentuate....... just like a car saleman will use pre owned rather then word it as a used car.
Denial would be rolling back the odometer. Big diff.
Thank you. Just as make up is used in an (attempt) to roll back father time.
Make overs anyone ? How about Glamour shots ? Re-touched, air brushed photos anyone ? Talk about denial and deception all wrapped up into one neat and tidy lil package, lol.
And I never, ever claim to be a natural beauty...
And I never said you were either !
Some of us are more sensitive to aesthetics than others
Some ? Try majority of the female population, which is why cosmetics ( make up ) in the US alone annually is in the billions of dollars.
We all have visuals and methods of expression that appeal to our inner and creative self.
Creative indeed. Just like a used car saleman......wait.... that would be a pre owned car saleman. Big Diff ! | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/13/2009 10:30:12 PM | Ah Tiger, I think your 'Piece #2' is just as oddly clinical as the first, I simply don't want to quote someone's entire post. Not 'conveniently omitted' at all. 
I definitely respect someone who makes use of proper spelling and grammar, but you seem rather cold and formal about the whole thing...why would you want to make 'acute mental notes of each imperfection/suspect area' of any woman you meet? I hope you see the positive attributes as well as the negative!
You look like someone who cares about how they look and dress, how the suit fits, how to best show your athletic physique, etc., so why can't someone else want to look their best by detracting attention from a perceived problem area without being thought of as insecure?
Thank you for assessing my query as astute. I wasn't referring to your 'do, by the way, it was just a common example I could think of at the time. Personally, I like the look, whether it's because a guy doesn't want to have that 'in between look' or just because they like it. Toupee.......possibly a deception if it's a REALLY good one. A comb-over though.....are we talking just a regular 'take it from the side and put it on the top' style, or brushing over your ear hair to meet in the middle at the top of your head? Perhaps in a jaunty ponytail......because that would be fascinating, albeit not very deceitful, just plain odd.
At any rate (sorry OP, didn't mean to rant o/t on your post), we ALL use and do things to feel and look nice. And I don't think many people really believe that they're deceiving anyone by wearing pantyhose or mascara or growing a beard or putting lifts on their shoes. I think most people realize that bright red lips on a woman (while usually a nice look when done right) are about as real as Pamela Anderson's boobs. Now if I was to try to convince someone that it was my real lip colour....that would be lying. And not very bright. And I would hope that when I wear a corset for 'show', people also don't assume my boobs naturally cushion my chin. Or at least I hope not. Eep.
Take MY profile photo for example (or anyone's, really). The one I'm using now, I don't have makeup on, therefore I guess you could say I'm being 'honest' in my appearance. BUT it also happens to be on a good camera angle for me.....is that deceitful or lying? That's why I put more than one pic up, because unless you see me in person, pictures are the only thing to look at, and it's really hard to get an idea of what a person 'really' looks like.
Has anyone actually ever met someone who looks REALLY drastically different without makeup or a butt-lifting pair of undies or if they put glasses on instead of contacts? Because I think that would indicate someone was going way too over the top. I think the majority of us probably just look a bit more polished when we brush our hair.... | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/13/2009 10:49:18 PM |
Personally, I feel like that is deception. I may not have a perfect body anymore, I do have my mental faculties. I like who I am and I also like my body, flaws and all. So its not popular, I'm not trying to win a popularity contest. I want someone to like me for who I am, not who the body shapers, pushup bras and tummy tammers make me out to be. Reality is, this is me... I love me... who cares if not everyone likes me... I don't.
Amen
There is an older country song that talks about loving her even if her hair falls out!
Is a hair piece a full head of hair?
Is it ok to say I have a job being self employed, "looking for work"?
Or is this issue about the same as posting pictures that are 2o years old on a profile?
I am what I am and that's all that I am!
I would rather be hated for who I am, then to be loved for what I'm not!
God doesn't make junk! | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/13/2009 11:39:26 PM | 99%corsets today are not body shapers. They are just pretty pieces of night time clothing.
now the above listed, i have read Jesicca Alba loves the Spanx, Paris Hilton those bras tha give you boobies when you don't have any I CAN GO ON AND ON ect..........
So judge yet be judged????? Who is to say. when mother nature calls and i am bloated, i don't mind granny undies (tummy tamers) water retention. | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/14/2009 12:33:01 AM | Oh I feel a flaming coming on, BUT please note all of the shaved faces of the men who are calling this deception. I shave to but to a lesser extent than most and do not dye the gray in my beard (or hair, whats left of it).
I appreciate a lady who works on looking good at my side. If she can't be bothered to try to look good, why should I bother. I wear cologne, arm charm, dress according to my body type, shave and trim my beard regularly. I'll NEVER pass as buff again, and accept it. On the same token I'll never again dress the way I did when I was buff.
Is cutting, combing, or styling your hair deception? Hey, it ain't natural.
At the same time a size 19 dressed up as a 9 ain't fooling anybody. We all have limits.
Are we setting a double standard here guys? Think about it. | |
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tlm92
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Joined: 4/5/2008
Msg: 44 | |
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/14/2009 1:19:17 AM | | I've seen a lot of those infomercials on t.v. on undergarments and it just brings to mind that if a woman has all these rolls, ripples and saddlebags and she's trying to disguise them, hide them or tone down the overall frumpy look she naturally sports then I think she might want to consider doing something a little more permanent and healthier. What's wrong with comming out the shower and looking at your nude body objectively and if you're not happy with what you see, then you work on it instead of buying all of these underthings that cost you more than if you changed your eating habits, destressed yourself by acknowledging that stress puts fat on you and when you deal with your stress and eliminate those things that stress you, you'll more than likely rid yourself of the ugly nasty fat body weight you're lugging around. Everyone knows or at least has been taught that the less fat you carry, the better for your heart and other vital organs not to mention you'll feel a whole lot different about yourself when you start seeing results. Yes we do have people that are legitimately sick and on certain meds for thyroid, high blood pressure and the like but I think for most of us that are overweight and trying to hide it know what we have to do but we're just lazy and find all kinds of excuses not to do it. I know, because i'm 40lbs. overweight and I am currently changing my ways. Really ladies, we don't look good with all the unsightly buldges and we know it, don't we???? We also have to accept the fact that our bodies loses its elasticity and we start sagging and our hair turns gray or white. So if you color your hair and put on a bit of make-up who cares----this is what we do but to go out there and buy all of these undergarments that makes someone else filthy rich, restricts you, squeeze the heck out of your organs which is actually bad for you then maybe we just need to accept where our bodies are today and makes wiser and healthier choices for tomorrow. How embarrassing and humiliating to take your clothes off for the first time with a new man in your life and boom, your fat goes dropping all around you bouncing and sagging right into their natural places. God, i'm so glad I don't try to hide it----that must feel really bad when he walks away in disgust knowing you just exposed yourself as a big fat fraud.... | |
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| Body Shapers, Push Up Bras, Tummy Tamers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/14/2009 5:48:08 AM | tlm92 just had to turn this into a fat bashing thread.
I wear a bra, which in not natural and was something that was not even invented until maybe the 20's I think. I wonder how many men would want their wives and girlfriends to go au natural? I think the "I want my woman to be completely natural" men would quickly throw their stance right out the window the minute her boobies would be swinging free, jiggling and jumping in front of his guy friends and boss. I have a feeling that when they would not be able to take their eyes of her chest he would be singing a very different tune. | |
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| Body Shapers, Push Up Bras, Tummy Tamers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/14/2009 7:04:45 AM | a lot of clothing we wear is because we feel as though it makes us 'look good'
many follow *rules* when dressing, to either enhance or subtract from, certain areas on their bodies - wear discreet shoulder pads to balance out smaller shoulders with hips, no horizontal stripes on wide bodies, vertical stripes can make people appear 'taller', monochromatic outfits can lengthen and narrow appearances, they wear suits specially cut....etc....
some men grow beards to hide a weak chin, or use concealer or medicated creams for acne... toupees or comb overs to hide unwanted balding patterns...
some women wear makeup to play up certain features or draw less attention to others, colour their hair to hide unwanted grays...
...and the male birds display gorgeous plumage to attract their mates...
it *is* natural :)
we all present ourselves as attractive as possible when we're interested in attracting someone... | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/14/2009 7:46:32 AM | I applaud Eir once again for her keen obervation (no sarcasm, I'm serious): clinical is precisely a word I would use to describe my mindset... just shy of robotic in fact. I tend to be rather logical and calculating (not to be confused with scheming): when I observe anything, I take in its pros & cons whilst commiting it to my visual memory. This applies to people, animals, inanimate objects, landscapes, whatever. I suppose I'm "clinical" because I do not automatically elevate people above the other categories... 
I've also enjoyed the debate between embellishment and deception, so I thought I'd share my personal distinction between the two, in the context of this thread about body shaping, make-up, etc.:
1) An embellishment is something that we all implicitly know is an added aesthetic, but does not change the person's overall appearance.
2) A deception is something that attempts to alter a fundamental aspect of a person's appearance and make it look like their natural state of being.
Before you all jump on this, please allow me a set of examples to clarify:
Perfume/cologne - Everyone knows women don't naturally smell like lavender and men don't naturally smell like Old Spice. However its addition in SMALL quantities can create a playful, delightful tease to the senses. It doesn't make you look any different from head to toe, just smell better, and simple soap in the shower has a similar effect.
Lotions, face cleansers, etc - The act of cleaning ourselves constantly in our society tends to strip more natural oils from our bodies than we'd normally suffer in the wild. Having dedicated moisturizing cleansers to counteract the harsh detergents is simply an act of preservation, like waxing your car periodically to preserve its finish. It's preventative maintenance, and doesn't roll back the clock on your appearance, just keeps you from rusting prematurely.
Shaving/Hair Cuts - Once again, we COULD let our hair go unkempt, and it wouldn't really change our appearance from a physical standpoint. A guy doesn't suddenly have rippling pecs/abs because he trimmed his beard, and a woman doesn't suddenly have a tight butt because she clipped her bangs. A haircut/style isn't really a deception, unless you've grown it out to hide the fact you're missing ears or something bizarre like that. Body/Pubic Hair is a personal preference/hygiene topic, to each their own.
Fancy clothes - Mere elegant wrappings, which can convey a sense of monetary worth and/or fashion sense. However it doesn't fool anyone either: a potbellied man in an Armani suit is still a potbellied man, the fanciest duds in the world aren't going to change that. If you're the type that's swayed by the clothes ON the person rather than the PERSON under the clothes, more power to you.
Nice shoes - They aren't going to change the size of your feet ladies, so wear what you like: if you have plump feet, you'll just have the infamous "pump fat" spilling out the side some comedians have joked about (Chris Rock had a hilarious bit on this once)
So each of these things in themselves I would refer to as "embellishments" because the overall product hasn't changed in terms of physical dimensions, you still see what size & condition you're getting if you're remotely paying attention to the whole.
The deception comes in when things are stretched, relocated, painted over, inflated or compressed to create a perceivable distortion in physical proportions/condition:
Sucking in your stomach - when a girl passes by, men are often guilty of this, and I'd say it's a deception. Who are you kidding fellas, do some sit-ups.
Girdles - same thing, except women predominantly use them (and maybe William Shatner). It's a lie as it makes your mid-section appear narrower than it is. Since people can't SEE that you're wearing it underneath your clothes, it is a deception.
Concealer/Foundation - its very NAME implies deception, 'nuff said.
Mascara - Kind of a waste if you ask me, when I gaze deep into a woman's eyes, I'm observing the lovely color of her irises, not the bloody lashes.
Lipstick - Once again a waste if you ask me, I hate having that stuff wipe off on me, and I'm more concerned with the softness of her lips on mine...
Bras - I'd be perfectly fine with breasts hanging in their natural state (even my wife's), but from what I've heard of my athletic female friends, having the twins bounce around while walking vigorously is as uncomfortable as for us dudes running full tilt with our junk swinging & bouncing in the breeze. A little support is a fair trade-off for increased mobility/comfort...
Push-Up/Water-Bras - Deception. Work with what Mother Nature gave you, small breasts look perfectly normal on a slender frame. Breast implants are silly-looking when observed in the nude; how two stationary orbs ever became a fashion fad is beyond me... I guess the body issue becomes prevalent for those who appear "disproportionate" (bottom far exceeds the bust)...
I guess when it comes down to it, my basis for deeming someone "physically attractive" is purely based on their implied nude form - trappings have no sway in that regard (to me). Similarly I base my personal attractiveness level based on what I see in the mirror when I get out of the shower. I observe my musculature, body hair, any scars etc. and see if there's anything I want/need to further improve by changing my workout regimen. I just toss clothes on for modesty's sake, and past girlfriends have often commented "I just shouldn't wear any because the view is better"...  | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/14/2009 9:10:25 AM | Tummy tamers or girdles ,even when at their strongest, will never do more then take you down a size or two. It will not make a woman or man who is overweight look anything but overweight,only slightly more controlled. There are no girdles that will take you from a size 22 to a size 2.
Sucking in your stomach - when a girl passes by, men are often guilty of this, and I'd say it's a deception.
Then don't do it.
Girdles - same thing
Then don't wear them.
Concealer/Foundation - its very NAME implies deception, 'nuff said.
Then don't wear it.
Mascara - Kind of a waste if you ask me,
Then don't wear it.
Lipstick - Once again a waste if you ask me
Then don't wear it.
Bras - I'd be perfectly fine with breasts hanging in their natural state
Then don't wear one.
Push-Up/Water-Bras - Deception.
Then by all means don't wear one.
Breast implants are silly-looking
Then don't get them. | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/14/2009 9:24:40 AM | And of course men spending HOURS and HOURS in the gym to get those pecs is natural too!
How about supplements men take to add more muscle to their average bodies?
Can you imagine Beyonce, Mary Jay Blige, Tina Turner, as well as the Paris Hilton's without their weaves or extentions?
Would love to take a peek at Michael Jordon's and Tiger Woods bank account and all the money they make from their ridiculously expensive clothing and shoe lines!
Ridiculous caps that cost $50.oo bucks a pop! Yeah that's really necessary?
The underlying message that they want to convey is I'm cool!
Oh how confident! | |
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| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/14/2009 9:38:52 AM | ~OP~ We live in a world of suck/pluck/tuck/insert/delete/air brush/enhance/extend/plug and generally be an "outter" shell to some degree. Do I agree it's all necessary? NOPE. My one indulgence? Expensive/uplifting bras. Years ago a wise MD told my mother that good quality uplifting bras would keep me from sagging later in life (thank GOD my mother listened!!) Do I wear make-up? The older you get, the reality is: less is MORE. So my make-up regime is simple: if it takes longer than 5 minutes, you're wearing too much. I no longer color my hair, I no longer get nails done and I certainly don't wear tummy tuckers or booty enhancers. Why is this? I know where the gym is and I know to drive by McDonalds rather than pull in the drive through. We need to get rather "real" at some point and I personally simply lost interest in the whole primping routine. If you find those things fake or unappealing, don't pay attention to them. Personally ~ I'd much rather render a little "truth in advertising" from the beginning. If something happens like a "relationship" you start stripping all that stuff off and things are gonna implode/explode and fall all over the place. Now that would be embarrassing.  Whatever works for you is all that matters. JMO  | |
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