|
|
|
|
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 9:25:04 AM | Dave you really need to read my post again.
Let me be perfectly clear.
What I was trying to do was make a correlation, if you will, between"some" women who like to wear make-up which many of you men have attested to is UNNECESSARY because it is unnatural and my point being that....
many men like to spend hours and hours in the gym each day to build their ordinary bodies
up with massive muscle. If mother nature blessed you naturally, well good on you! However, in my book there is a reasonable amount of time to be exercising to remain healthy. Then there is the next level (I hear women complain about this constantly in the salon) where there husband, boyfriend, lover, are constantly in the gym every spare moment they have. They are specificly there to turn their ordinary bodies into huge hulking bodies with rippling 6 packs! They do this because it makes them feel good and for the ATTENTION it draws when they walk into a room. No doubt causing envious stares from "some" men!
My point being... this look is UNNATURAL! Why...because as soon as they stop the intense weight lifting there body goes back to it's ORDINARY body type. Or as some of you men like to cry "fowl" when a women takes her make-up off at night. Same thing when a man stops exercising!
Again let me make myself clear, some women DO NOT like this look and think it is unnatural and some will go so far to say that it looks gross!
Bottom line..I have no problem if "some" of you spend hours and hours in the gym! Don't care!
Just don't try to make it sound like it's some freakish thing that women do by trying to smell nice, look nice and God forbid wear make-up!
Make-up has been around since the days of Cleopatra and last I saw the clothing and make-up companies are still thriving!
Oh one more thing... I guess it's safe to presume for some of you men that are "haters" of make-up and fashion, would immediately change the channel should a Victoria's Secret commercial come on! Right! | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 9:34:15 AM | "any man who thinks it's cheating when a women likes to be feminine wearing, heels, tasteful makeup, smelling nice (not cheap perfume), loves long luxurious baths with nice bath oil, dressing nice ..."
>>>I'm not sure how pampering yourself, is the same as uncomfortably pushing up your b00bs. Or does the heels refer to changing one's height? but I think interludesolo agrees?
"I do agree that things like Body Shapers etc. is a little excessive..."
"So a man spending hours and hours in a gym trying to get the 6 pack on his ordinary body and then proudly trying to display it at every given opportunity is not deceptive! "
>>>well, if he has it to show off...then its not deceptive. Its actually there. Now, a person can show off whatever they want, I just wish for them they have a positive attitude about their body, and be happy with what they have--unless its unhealthy, of course. | |
|
| Body Shapers, Push Up Bras, Tummy Tamers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 9:34:23 AM | shaving your beard is not an "unnatural" thing.
Actually it is you who is missing the point. We are talking about being completely natural as you are . Taking hair off your face that grows there naturally is doing something unnatural. A face as hairless and as smooth as a preadolescent boy is not natural on a man your age. You are making yourself appear to be something you are not. Shaving makes a man appear drastically different.
Protest as much as you want , but it will never change the fact that even you do unnatural things to make yourself appear as something other then what you are really supposed to look like.
Oh yeah men hate makeup, implants , hair dye etc... so much which is why playboy and porno are doing so well. Insert rolling eyes emoticon here please:) My lord you men are so full of sh!t. Oh oh wait I hear it now "but I don't buy playboy",or" but I don't look at pornos" ,or "I don't really like how those women look". Umm yeah sure and we all believe you too. Damn where is the rolling eyes emoticon when you need it?:)) | |
|
| Body Shapers, Push Up Bras, Tummy Tamers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 10:18:54 AM | "Actually it is you who is missing the point. We are talking about being completely natural as you are . Taking hair off your face that grows there naturally is doing something unnatural. A face as hairless and as smooth as a preadolescent boy is not natural on a man your age. You are making yourself appear to be something you are not. Shaving makes a man appear drastically different.
Protest as much as you want , but it will never change the fact that even you do unnatural things to make yourself appear as something other then what you are really supposed to look like.
Oh yeah men hate makeup, implants , hair dye etc... so much which is why playboy and porno are doing so well. Insert rolling eyes emoticon here please:) My lord you men are so full of sh!t. Oh oh wait I hear it now "but I don't buy playboy",or" but I don't look at pornos" ,or "I don't really like how those women look". Umm yeah sure and we all believe you too. Damn where is the rolling eyes emoticon when you need it?:))""
LOL...oh god..you are delusional..so i guess everything that a person does in life is "unnatural" then?..if i brush my teeth i am doing something "unnatural"? LOL..how can all these things be the same with someone wearing push up bra and all that clothing to make yourself look better to make people think that is how you look naturally?..there is a difference between going to the gym and taking care of your body and using cosmetics and stuff on your body..working out is nothing artificial..cosmetics are chemicals that are not natural...when u work out you dont add anything artificial about your body or add any unnatural thing to it...you really are trying to make something out of nothing..presumably to make yourself feel "better" about wearing your make up and what have you...its not gonna work..because explain all you want its TOTALLY different....but hey, whatever makes you feel better about yourself i guess | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 10:30:58 AM | | if you need all that crap to look good, then i think it's time to go on a diet and exercise program. i've lost 17 lbs. recently and boy does it feel good!!! if i can do it, anyone can, believe me on that. just takes some self-control and motivation. | |
|
| Body Shapers, Push Up Bras, Tummy Tamers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 11:29:41 AM | Jeez Louise....seaga
What the women is trying to say...is IF fake boobs, fake hair, bras, Viagara, high heels, nice smells are so repulsive and unattractive to "some men" oh please please please tell me why the porn movies sell through the roof with fake pouty injected lips and boobs bobbin around everywhere! Why do movies which are R rated, usually because some women is running around naked....your not gonna try to say that that actress's who makes gazillions of money with her redone nose, redone teeth (Jennifer Anniston) is natural on the screen. Seriously?Britiny Spears natural? Not! Most have all had work to some degree because perfection is expected, no correction, DEMANDED! Most women whether they admit it or not or live under a rock, cannot help but be affected by the constant pressure of the media, movies, magazines, to strive for perfection! As a hairstylist I get to see front and center, the stories women tell me about their man wanting them to look a certain way.
That long straight fake blonde hair seems to be very desirable to men!
And Seaga..I beg to disagree, huge bulging muscles are not NATURAL because they don't STAY that way if the man doesn't work out! Ditto 6packs. Normal workouts, operative word NORMAL and your body gets taunt and you look healthy otherwise your body is being manipulated if your in the gym 40 hours a week. l I personaly know bodybuilders who work out excessively to KEEP that UNNATURAL look! Some women like it! Some don't!! | |
|
| Body Shapers, Push Up Bras, Tummy Tamers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 11:47:16 AM | if you need all that crap to look good, then i think it's time to go on a diet and exercise program. i've lost 17 lbs. recently and boy does it feel good!!! if i can do it, anyone can, believe me on that. just takes some self-control and motivation.
Uh huh And I suppose you "need" all of that mascara and lipstick? You see it's not about need, it's about want.
LOL...oh god..you are delusional..so i guess everything that a person does in life is "unnatural" then?..if i brush my teeth i am doing something "unnatural"? LOL..how can all these things be the same with someone wearing push up bra and all that clothing to make yourself look better to make people think that is how you look naturally?..there is a difference between going to the gym and taking care of your body and using cosmetics and stuff on your body..working out is nothing artificial..cosmetics are chemicals that are not natural...when u work out you don't add anything artificial about your body or add any unnatural thing to it...you really are trying to make something out of nothing..presumably to make yourself feel "better" about wearing your make up and what have you...its not gonna work..because explain all you want its TOTALLY different....but hey, whatever makes you feel better about yourself i guess
Ok uh huh, sure grown man trying to look drastically different by shaving off his beard to look like a preadolescent boy.
*** smirks*** | |
|
| Body Shapers, Push Up Bras, Tummy Tamers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 1:34:18 PM | interludo: how is going to the gym unnatural?..ofcourse if you stop going to the gym all together you may or may not maintain that looks..but its not like you are putting something "false" or whatever on your body..when i say its natural to do those things i mean its natural in the sense that it is a part of what people do maintain their health or to look better without adding anything fake to your body..muscles are NOT fake!! unless a guy added Padded muscle" r something then ofcourse that would be "unnatural"....how the hell is muscle not natural? its a PART OF the person so please tell me how it is unnatural?..fake books, push up bras, make ups etc etc etc....is NOT a part of the human body!! you really are trying desperately to make yourself feel better about what you do...and nothing is wrong with feeling better about wearing/using all those stuff women use, but when a woman purposefully do it to attract men etc..that that is DECEIVING....its really funny that you say working out and get in better shape is "unnatural".... | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 1:46:43 PM | | I think all those "helpers" are fabulous! As for the bra, I say, "push em up, shove em up, WAYYYYY up!" Tuck it, flatten it - whatever. If it makes you look good and feel sexy, go for it! It's not lying - it's still you! And if you feel sexy, you are more positive and fun to be around! | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 2:58:39 PM | Good grief Sega
Read that last paragraph again...I'm saying exercising at the gym is a GOOD thing but when you start to look like the HULK then that is not natural as in weight lifting OBSESSIVELY and one more time....when you stop weight lifting your natural body shape comes back.
I've known many body builders and aware of all the illegal powders they take to attain that
UNNATURAL look. Oh pardon me "some" men would think it's cool! But when they STOP the intensive weight lifting some of the men are almost unrecognizable because they have
shrunk back to their normal shape is all I'm sayin
It's your God given right if you want to weight lift until the cows come home but don't try to say that women are cheating by wearing make-up when a huge percentage of the population
is going in for plastic surgery every day and it's on the rise! FYI men as well as women!
Why do they do it? To try and look as close to perfection as possible, I'm guessing!
I swear "some" of you men would still like to see women barefoot and pregnant!
What exactly is the underlying issue here? Is it because we have so many options or what? Did some of you have Tammy Faye mothers?
And what about all those ugly azzz tattoos that most of you have? Is that natural too?You were born with ink on your body? Once again tattoo away, could care less about weather you have tattoos or not! | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 3:32:02 PM | Lying.. a little.. AND looking good.
We've all got imperfections and generally, we're harder on ourselves about them than others would be on us, so sometimes the pointlessness in using all these garments becomes obvious to someone pretty quick.
Screw it though, even if no one else beyond ourselves feels better about how we look, that's still something good. | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 5:10:21 PM | | LOL oh god you really dont know what is natural from what is unnatural..it doesnt matter if he looks like HULK..having muscles is a part of your body!!....it doesnt matter if someone does something to make them bigger..as long as you dont have any artificial plastic or whatever in them..and taking supplement or whatever has nothing to do with having big muscles being unnatural..push up bra is NOT a part of the human body..hence why its unnatural and makes you look a way in which you are NOT....so i guess if someone grows their hair long its "unnatural" too huh? lmao....i think you are confusing the word "natural" in this scenario from what it literally means...i dont mean its unatural in the literal sense but its unnatural because its NOT a part of your body! i guess if i shit and wipe my ass its unnatural too huh? | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 5:52:25 PM | | Anything you do to your body, clothes you wear, makeup, tattoos, supplements...it's all an expression. It's all the way you want to be perceived. It's all you, whether physically enhanced, steroided up, etc. It is the real you, because it is your choice of presentation of your "self." So, it's not a lie. | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 6:55:38 PM | Ok Interludesolo....I catch your point and hopefully you catch mine. What I am talking about is not make up in general or padded undergarments in general. As I previously stated.... I like my women with tasteful amounts of make up. My point is it was about if using these things is somewhat deceitful.
The men you speak about who are obessed with working out just seemed to me to be something that should be discussed on another forum because it is a different discussion. Their obession with their muscles ( body) is not about deceit but I would say more about vanity gone way out of control or something more serious like anorexia in reverse. No matter how big they are in their eyes they look small and shriveled. They are not deceiving anyone.... they are simply into their muscles and bodies and making them as big and perfect as possible.....they worked for it, they sweated for it and they earned it.....they did not buy it at the counter at Saks 5th Avenue or Macy`s.
I just did not see the correlation between men ( and some women) who live in a gym who work their bodies naturally to women ( and some men I guess) who wear make up and/or use padded undergarments.
Not a damn thing wrong with making oneself look better........ not a damn thing wrong with coloring ones hair to hide the gray.....or smoothing out the wrinkles on ones face with make up.......It is ok to do these things and I am not against it at all * BUT * it is somewhat deceitful because you are seeing (or not seeing) what is under the coloring and make up or whatever... and that what this thread was originally about......
So like...if a guy stuffed a rolled up sock down his groin inside his jeans to make his "package" appear more prominent....would that not be somewhat deceitful ???? lol
And for the record...... I workout 30 to 40 minutes a day, three times a week and have been doing it this way for 27 years.......and no, I do not stuff socks down my draws
Peace | |
|
| |
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 8:07:26 PM | Like the up session with pic with profile it seem like obsession with visual impressions.
remembering when we sat at the relationship table it's all about transparency.
so why do we deceive each other, the truth will come out eventually and some one will get hurt.
remember there is someone out there for everyone honesty is the best
if.policy, be yourself it's better for someone to like you for who you really are that who they think you are.
We all have to stripe to the bare truth at some stage.
there should be a law against woman and men who use any aid to disguise their appearance it's called deception ah ah | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 8:46:01 PM |
uncomfortably pushing up your b00bs. Or does the heels refer to changing one's height? If a bra is uncomfortable, the woman did not purchase the right size. Actually a good supportive bra is healthy. It helps you with your posture and takes strain off of your back. The only way I think men know if they are real or not is if you sleep with them. I can not tell you how many stupid emails I have gotten asking if they are real. Thank goodness for bras, I am taking the real question as a compliment.
I wear heels because it pulls different muscles in your legs and not only makes your legs look nicer, but your feet look nicer in a great pair of shoes!
Darn straight I shave my legs and arm pits, unnatural, sure but it feels better smooth. Gosh and I have had my nose broke 3 or 4 times now. I don't want to see someone else's nose hair growing out, I know no one wants to see mine.
Oh sometimes I love to put on the liquid eyeliner and go for a dramatic effect because it is fun! Make up is fun! It doesn't change who you are and unless you really are Tammy Fae or Dolly Partner, most women don't change that dramatically when they take it off.
If the guy I am with shaves and works out, I don't consider it unnatural, I consider that he wants to look good for me. It makes me feel good that he cares!
If something makes you feel good and better about you, what is the harm? Life is short and it should be enjoyed. Do whatever you need or want to to make yourself feel better about yourself. If someone else doesn't like it, they aren't the person you should be with. You can have the woman with the unibrow. | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/16/2009 9:31:46 PM | Well I'm glad to see other posters have taken up the charge in debating this topic, because I thought I was the only one beating a dead horse here...
I think this entire thing can and has been summed up quite nicely by Daveb951 on page 3, but whose post I am going to truncate for added conciseness:
Daveb951 mentioned:
" [...]The discussion is about [...]items people BUY in a store who are too lazy and/or lack the motivation/discipline to actually break a sweat to (naturally) improve their body.[...]"
Therein, my forum friends and foes alike, lies the rub.
Only in our epidemically-sedentary and excuse-ridden society could someone remotely postulate that exercising to attain a fitter physique is an "unnatural deception" on par with wearing a girdle and slathering one's self in concealing products. At the end of the day if you strip down the gym-rat (man OR woman), their physique is still the same, whereas the girdle-wearer is spilling out in all of their jiggly glory. THAT is the difference, THAT is the "deception" some posters have been trying to question...   | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/17/2009 8:20:50 AM | Load of crap, Tiger. For several years, I cut out junk food and sweets, went to the gym every day, walked up and down the 6 flights of stairs at my workplace morning and afternoon coffee breaks, did pilates and belly dancing class once a week and practice at home. I continued to gain sizes throughout that whole time. Exercise is NOT the answer for every person, and I am living proof!
There may be a few people in this world who are actually using these contraptions to give a false impression. But for the most part, WE just want to be happy with OURSELVES when we look in the mirror--the fun of trying out different things, whether makeup or clothing and the enjoyment of feeling attractive shouldn't require someone else's permission. Those men who think women are changing themselves to trap them need a little reality and ego check.
Instead of complaining about appearance, why don't you take a good look at the personalities instead.
Nutt | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/17/2009 9:25:51 AM | I guess it comes down to deception and the definition of deception is in the eye of the beholder........or... a picture is worth a thousand words......
Copy and paste the link below and you be the judge .......
http://www.fox.com.au/entertainment/galleries/starstyle/stars-without-makeup?selectedImage=1
Peace | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/17/2009 10:14:34 AM | OMG!
Here's the bottom line! If you happen to have been graced by God with a body that is slender and lean, eyebrows that are perfectly shaped, skin that is a natural beautiful golden tan, and hair that just has the perfect mix of blond highlights - well you are likely on the front cover of Vogue!
For the rest of us, we happily rely on whatever "unnatural" enhancements make us feel better about going out each morning to greet the world. When guys ask, "are you a natural redhead?" My reply is, "Only in my soul, but my kids assure me that there should always be truth in advertising!  | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/17/2009 10:29:42 AM | Sigh ChocolateNutt posted several jabs, which I'll take the liberty of playfully batting away...
First up, I'll applaud you for your past commitment to fit living:
For several years, I cut out junk food and sweets, went to the gym every day, walked up and down the 6 flights of stairs at my workplace morning and afternoon coffee breaks, did pilates and belly dancing class once a week and practice at home.
Which is why I'm befuddled by your next statement:
[...]for the most part, WE just want to be happy with OURSELVES when we look in the mirror-
You were doing all that and STILL weren't satisfied enough with yourself to be comfortable in your own skin? Perhaps I'm not the only one in need of an adjustment of perception, since your profile photos show a slender woman, so I'm curious what happened to those "sizes" you claim to have picked up at the gym if exercising was making you larger (and you didn't specify if the gains were muscle or fat)... 
[...]the enjoyment of feeling attractive shouldn't require someone else's permission. Those men who think women are changing themselves to trap them need a little reality and ego check.
Pray tell where I proclaimed myself the Universe's dictator and decreed that all people must pass my inspection before they're allowed to live? I actually agree with you that any man that thinks he's being "trapped" does need an ego check. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I have far too discerning an eye to wind up with those hapless pups anyway. This thread isn't a dating problem for me, just a sociological debate...
On a similar note, I simply said body-shapers, make-up etc. is a deception on one's appearance, but I didn't dare to speculate the exact reason FOR the deception, as there are as many reasons as there are people. I object to the existence of the deception itself, I could care less who the actual target of the deception is (be it other men, women, or the deceiver themself).
I've pretty much said everything I've wanted to on this topic, so I'm going to leave this thread be to evolve (or devolve) on its own. My entries into this debate are based from a philosophical vantage point; I'm not personally worried about this stuff affecting my dating life because as I've said before, I've long since trained my eyes to scrutinize and filter through that crap anyway. Best of luck in life and love to all, confident and insecure people alike!  | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/17/2009 10:51:15 AM | Alrighty then Dave..
There's a few things we agree on
For starters, I do agree that staying healthy and exercising is a good thing. I go to the gym, took a break at Christmas and am now going back after the holidays.
For myself personally, I don't wear body shapers, push-up bras, etc. but don't judge anyone that does. Your choice.
That being said, I am a girlie-girl and enjoy being a girl! It's a pleasant ritual for most of us!
And yes, I'm sure some fat kats are sitting somewhere on their yachts in the Carribbean, reaping from the benefits of their cosmetic companies and clothing lines. It's part of our culture, whether we like it or not
and if any of you men think you can stop the proliferation of this industry..be my guest and while your at it advocate to get rid of magazines, music videos, constant barrage of advertisements telling us how we should look or not look.
No one could ever accuse me of breaking the bank on make-up or clothes but I do partake, just not to excess.
And yes I get it... "some" men hate cosmetics and any cheatin undergarment!
I see it as my perogative if I choose to wear make-up, wear perfume, etc. Speaking for myself.. it is part of the feminine package if I choose! And as one of the posters stated, for some of us anyway, it's not a matter of need but a matter of perference.
As we all know there are many forms of deception, Considerering all the evil that goes on in this world, IMO this one being at the low end of importance when it comes to human interaction. I gather that anti-make-up men like to see what your getting, correct?
IMO there is no guarantee of anything, you always have to look beneath the surface!
Some "natural" people are very good at disguising their ugly agendas or selfish, immature natures.
As for you Mr. Tiger, this is not a dig,
I gather you only date white women because it's very rare to meet a young black women
who doesn't wear hair weaves. Some wear the braids..but most wear weaves.
My son has a beautiful girlfriend from Jamaica. She's gorgeous the way she is but always
gets weaves put in! My son loves her with any style. She also wears that shiny lipgloss,
which I guess in your book would be a complete no-no cuz it's not "natural!"
Peace | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/17/2009 12:31:46 PM |
So, what do you all think about these body shapers, briefers, boobie enhancers, booty rounders?
I have a girlfriend who's always trying to make me more pretty. She takes me shopping and makes me try on sexy clothes and bold colours and once she insisted that I needed a padded bra to enhance my bust. I tried it on, and it looked good I suppose, but the truth is I felt self-conscious and uncomfortable. I didn't buy it, for the same reason I don't wear makeup or perfume or much jewelry -- I don't like to rely on external accessorizing for my self-image, my sense of beauty, usefulness, value. When I'm trying to live up to some current standard of "pretty" I'm far more vulnerable than when I'm being my own version of useful. | |
|
| Body Shapers, Pushup Bras, Tummy Tammers - Lying or looking good?
Posted: 1/17/2009 1:22:31 PM | This thread just doesn't want to leave me alone it would seem:
Interludesolo commented:
As for you Mr. Tiger, this is not a dig,
I gather you only date white women because it's very rare to meet a young black women
who doesn't wear hair weaves. Some wear the braids..but most wear weaves.
I fully realize that my opinions aren't always popular on these forums, but my claim to fame has never been my popularity but simple, clinical, logical truth in expression.
Yet I find it hilarious how many times someone takes a character swipe at my dating preferences & ethnic affiliations when it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEBATE at hand. Be it angry black posters or indignant white ones, somehow I'm always getting pitch-forked by both sides of the fence...
I also find it hilarious that a 51 year old white woman from Manitoba no less, which is apparently the provincial black epicenter of Canada despite only having 1.2 Million out of the country's estimated 33+ people, is espousing her expertise on the black population's hair preferences based on who her son dates.
My mother, a natural-born "pure" (no one truly is) Jamaican woman has straight hair (although it can get nappy at times). My sister also inherited that straight hair, even when she doesn't get perms it's wavy but not an afro. Neither one of them has done weaves, nor have most of the black women in my extended family & friends - they either work the afro God gave them, or play with the wavy hair they got instead.
As for the final lip gloss quip, that is just too silly for me to even waste energy on... | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
