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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...      Home login  
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 Caexars
Joined: 10/25/2008
Msg: 951
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...Page 39 of 43    (3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43)
I think that hyper-veganism and hyper-animal rights are a response to the oversaturated, high waste-yielding food market we have in the modern world, especially in rich areas such as North America. You don’t often find such sanctimonious behaviour in areas where food is quite hard to get a hold of. I think part of the reason is that livestock aren’t treated with as much respect as they used to get. I’m a big believer in knowing how your meat is raised, killed, and processed. I also believe in wasting as little of the animal as possible. Unfortunately, the common contemporary palette and sentiment towards organ meat, blood, and “unusual” body parts have decreased a great deal and become much more snobby and unadventurous.
 SaharaM
Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 952
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 7/26/2009 12:24:02 PM
^^So those who don't share your preferences are sanctimonious, snobby, and unadventurous.

I guess that's one perspective...
 Caexars
Joined: 10/25/2008
Msg: 953
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 7/26/2009 1:19:57 PM
If you're going to be an enthusiastic omnivore, why won't you want to attempt the holistic and respectful approach of trying to waste none of the animal? The squeamishness most people hold for animal parts other than meat seems to be a thoroughly modern sentiment.
 SaharaM
Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 954
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 7/26/2009 1:30:26 PM

The squeamishness most people hold for animal parts other than meat seems to be a thoroughly modern sentiment.
I agree; I, too, wish that this was not the case.

That said, I don't judge others' decisions. I don't try to define others as "enthusiastic omnivores" or anything else. I'm not that presumptuous. It is a complex issue and I don't believe that anyone, vegan, vegetarian, or otherwise, should have to justify their choices. When someone shares a glimpse of their beliefs/reasoning, I appreciate it and respect it. I don't need to agree with it, and I don't need to criticize. It's disrespectful and stifles productive conversation.
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 955
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 7/28/2009 10:17:42 PM
I am a enthusiastic omnivore living things eat living thing that is how we stay alive. If we all only ate birds we would die out as a race if we all only ate soy we would die as a race. we need some to eat only plants and some to eat only meat but the ones who will live through any famine are we who can and do eat it all.
 SaharaM
Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 956
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 7/28/2009 10:49:19 PM
^^ Reality, as I'm sure you know, is that vegetarianism is a CHOICE made possible by wealth and resources. Human beings eat what is necessary to stay alive. While I have not read every post on this thread I challenge you to find one instance of someone suggesting that he or she would choose to die in a famine before altering their diet.

C'mon now.
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 957
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:28:45 AM
While I do try to make the most out of each animal I strategically euthanize while hunting, instead of throwing away the parts I don't want...I feed my dogs with what I do not care for.

And Coyote meat is NOT tasty...no matter how you prepare it...bleah.
So the doggies get the 'Yote after it's been properly prepared for them.

If for no other reason than feeding our cats & dogs...factory farms will exist for many centuries to come. Hrm, but the PETA folks didn't think about THAT, did they??
 SaharaM
Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 958
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 10:04:04 AM
^^I could be wrong because I don't follow PETA... but I don't believe they support humans possessing pets.

So perhaps they HAVE "thought about that." I don't think this fabulous inconsistency you think you've found holds up.

Then again, like I said, I haven't spent a lot of energy researching PETA, so who knows...

Hrm...
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 959
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 10:06:22 AM
I think PETA is against the misuse of animals, I know members who are not vegan, but only eat the meat and dairy products from local markets.

Are vegans who are against the eating animals and their byproducts against animals eating other animals?
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 960
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 10:49:36 AM
>>>I think PETA is against the misuse of animals

I find this statement to be revealing. "Misuse"? What, pray tell, is a misuse? I mean, mistreatment is pretty clear- don't torture animals, or deny them food, or train them for agression- most people would agree to these standards- but "misuse"? Isn't that a subjective statement, based on each person's own opinion? I personally define "misuse" as "abuse"- Some people, spefically people who understand and actually support PeTA's message, believe "misuse" of animals to include slaughter, raising them for wool, raising them for companionship, or even harvesting their honey.

>>> I know members who are not vegan, but only eat the meat and dairy products from local markets.

I'm sorry, so they're part of PeTA because they're anti-corporation and anti-globalization? Isn't this disingenious? Why do they support an organsation that pushes to deny them freedoms they believe they should be allowed? Why do they join an organsation that has nothing to do with their intended goals?

>>>Are vegans who are against the eating animals and their byproducts against animals eating other animals?

In the role of pets? Yes. I've heard stories of Vegans forcing Veganism on their pets. That been said, to claim that all vegans feel this way would be a generalization- but certainly some do.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 961
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 10:54:45 AM

In the role of pets? Yes. I've heard stories of Vegans forcing Veganism on their pets. That been said, to claim that all vegans feel this way would be a generalization- but certainly some do.


I meant globally, not domestically.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 962
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:00:36 AM
Ah, like they don't believe a Lion should eat meat either.....

No, I sincerely hope that there are some Vegans that are that dense.....I mean, Carnivores need meat to survive.....so they aren't asking that Carnivores simply change their diet- they would be asking that we make Carnivores extinct(which, ironically, is very simular to PeTA's cry that cows, chickens, ect go extinct.....)
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 963
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:07:04 AM

No, I sincerely hope that there are some Vegans that are that dense.....I mean, Carnivores need meat to survive.....so they aren't asking that Carnivores simply change their diet- they would be asking that we make Carnivores extinct(which, ironically, is very simular to PeTA's cry that cows, chickens, ect go extinct.....)


See, that is my point, though.

Saying that it is inhumane for a human to eat meat is no different than saying a lion should have a vegetarian diet.
 SaharaM
Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 964
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:13:35 AM
Saying that it is inhumane for a human to eat meat is no different than saying a lion should have a vegetarian diet.
Actually, it is different. "Inhumane" implies lack of human compassion and other HUMAN qualities. What in the WORLD does that have to do with lions?
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 965
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:30:21 AM
Good point, allow me to fix what I said to be sensible.

Saying that it is cruel for a human to eat meat is no different than saying a lion should have a vegetarian diet.
 SaharaM
Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 966
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:35:46 AM
I still disagree. It's not about choosing different words; it's about a flawed concept. Cruelty and the like are about intentional acts of harm; it's about knowingly causing pain.

Like it or not, lions do not function on the same level as humans. They do not produce their own food; their food sorce is what it is. The fact that we have the ability to make choices about what we eat and how we obtain our food has nothing to do with lions.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 967
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:41:07 AM

I still disagree. It's not about choosing different words; it's about a flawed concept. Cruelty and the like are about intentional acts of harm; it's about knowingly causing pain.

Like it or not, lions do not function on the same level as humans. They do not produce their own food; their food sorce is what it is. The fact that we have the ability to make choices about what we eat and how we obtain our food has nothing to do with lions.


Some of the methods of current food sources are cruel. Eating meat isn't cruel.

I don't eat processed foods, so I do not have the options that you describe. I was vegetarian for 8 months, and I became malnourished because of choices of foods and excluding meats.

Since lions do not knowingly cause pain in your theory, why do you believe that a cow knows when it is being mistreated? Without it knowing this, is it really mistreatment?
 greg14229
Joined: 7/18/2009
Msg: 968
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:46:05 AM
saharam, you are right....but does this mean we should stop eating meat? Or just do it in a humane way? i dont think a chicken suffers much. If you open the door to its cage, half the time it wont even walk out.
This is a little off topic, but i own a parrot. Once in a while, i'll have someone say to me "its wrong for you to keep a bird in a cage". Which is true if the bird is neglected, but my bird knows how to open the door to his cage, and he comes in and out when he pleases, i never lock it. He has a playground on top of his cage which is extensive. he can fly, his wings are not clipped, yet he very rarely leaves his playground on his own, although i am constantly taking him off of it. One day he flew out the door when someone opened it, and landed 3 houses down the street in the grass. I went looking for him, and when he saw me he ran towards me down the sidewalk and immediately got onto my finger. He is not a caged animal, and his life is much, much easier than that of a wild bird. He wouldnt last a day in the wild. If a cat approached him, i believe he would say "hello".
In the same way, i think there is a humane way to raise animals for food.
 SaharaM
Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 969
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:47:41 AM
Some of the methods of current food sources are cruel. Eating meat isn't cruel.
I agree.


I don't eat processed foods, so I do not have the options that you describe.
What options are those?


I was vegetarian for 8 months, and I became malnourished because of choices of foods and excluding meats.
If you had chosen properly, the exclusion of meat would not have caused malnourishment.


Since lions do not knowingly cause pain in your theory,
I'm not sure that's my theory (it's simply a snippet of my last post removed from context) but... ummm... I don't believe that a lion has malice when rounding up dinner. Do you?
why do you believe that a cow knows when it is being mistreated?
That's not something I ever said. At all. It's not that effective to put "words" in someone's mouth when the real words are in writing.

Without it knowing this, is it really mistreatment?
Yes. Do you believe otherwise? If so, how do you feel about infants being abused?


saharam, you are right....but does this mean we should stop eating meat?
Absolutely not. Not unless you want to as an individual, in my opinion.
Or just do it in a humane way?
That would be my preference.
i dont think a chicken suffers much.
I guess that depends on the farm. There are horrible practices at some egg farms... including piling up male chicks in huge bins, waiting for the bottom half to suffocate, and then turning them into another bin so the dead ones suffocate the ones that were previously on top. Everyone has a different definition of suffering, I guess.
you open the door to its cage, half the time it wont even walk out.
I'm not sure that means that it hasn't been mistreated, but who knows.

Greg, I think your parrot is lucky to have you.
 greg14229
Joined: 7/18/2009
Msg: 970
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:56:47 AM

I guess that depends on the farm. There are horrible practices at some egg farms... including piling up male chicks in huge bins, waiting for the bottom half to suffocate, and then turning them into another bin so the dead ones suffocate the ones that were previously on top. Everyone has a different definition of suffering, I guess.


of course this is barbaric. I've never heard of it before, admittedly. As a conscious and moral being, we should never do this to animals. And if i saw someone do this, i would probably try to be heroic and steal the chicks. And then i'd be sitting in Mcdonalds eating a Big Mac with a box full of 200 chicks wondering what i was going to do with 200 chicks.

But i think the answer lies in closer regulation of farm practices rather than the cessation of meat eating.
 SaharaM
Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 971
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Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:58:25 AM

But i think the answer lies in closer regulation of farm practices rather than the cessation of meat eating.
I could not agree more.
 CoeurDeLion246
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 972
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:59:53 AM

I was vegetarian for 8 months, and I became malnourished because of choices of foods and excluding meats.


No offense but without more details, I'd say this is because you made bad choices and nothing more. I became a vegetarian in January/February of 2006, and then a vegan in about June/July of 2008. My health has consistently improved, quite drastically overall, and now my physical condition is excellent.


Without it knowing this, is it really mistreatment?


Obviously I can't speak for the person to whom this question was directed, but I'd like to offer my own response. I think that it is mistreatment, because in my opinion the things that make it mistreatment are not dependent upon the victim's knowledge or acceptance of them. I consider it mistreatment to treat another living being (note the use of 'being' here, as opposed to a 'thing') as merely an object and/or means to some end, especially a selfish end. In this case, I believe that it is mistreatment because it treats the cow as a means for satisfying hunger or supplying nutrients and not as a living being with thoughts and feelings, however primitive those may be.
 greg14229
Joined: 7/18/2009
Msg: 973
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 12:08:51 PM
PETA by the way is a manipulative, almost cult-like entity. Never, ever donate to PETA. They are about one step away from terrorists, or anti-abortionists who throw rocks thru the windows of medical clinics. They are thought police and willing to do anything to make their point (whether its harmful to others or illegal). Anyone who doubts this, do a thorough google search on them (besides their own website).

Although once a year PETA has a cute girl strip on a stage while she's talking about animals...this is encouraging
 CoeurDeLion246
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 974
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 12:24:03 PM

PETA by the way is a manipulative, almost cult-like entity. Never, ever donate to PETA. They are about one step away from terrorists, or anti-abortionists who throw rocks thru the windows of medical clinics. They are thought police and willing to do anything to make their point (whether its harmful to others or illegal). Anyone who doubts this, do a thorough google search on them (besides their own website).


Whilst I'm not sure about specifics, I would at least say that they are less than useful in promoting the ideals. When I first changed my mind it wasn't because someone was screaming at me that what I was doing was barbaric, it's because I had a civilized conversation with someone who was already a vegan. From what I've seen, PETA is very much the former and in my experience this just puts off people who might otherwise be open minded.


Although once a year PETA has a cute girl strip on a stage while she's talking about animals...this is encouraging


I'd say that's more ironic than encouraging, given my general views.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 975
Hypothetical dilemma for Vegans/PETA...
Posted: 8/2/2009 12:59:03 PM
I don't believe that a lion has malice when rounding up dinner. Do you?


No, but I don't have malice when rounding up dinner, either.


If you had chosen properly, the exclusion of meat would not have caused malnourishment.


Not true, my doctor informed me I either needed to step outside the farmer's market and go to the grocery store or get to a local butcher I could trust.
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