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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/25/2009 10:31:17 AM | ......................................................................................................................................
No kudos!!! lol .. no no no.. I don't want or need a pat on the back for smartening the hell up!! .. For me it got to the point of being a choice of Life or Death. phew .. lucky me!
And - it was only hard the first couple years. Now? ick ick ick .. I can't even imagine drinking the swill. No challenge staying sober .. Getting sober is the trick.
Part of "staying sober" is doing what was done for me. Offering support, advice and direction - IF I have it to offer .. too easy. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/25/2009 10:35:28 AM | A.S.is - ok, no kudos, but however you view it, good for you for wising up! 
I wish my dear friend's son would seize onto this attitude. he's been in rehab countless times. it was either that or jail. he still thinks the only people fun to be around are the ones who are high on something or other. what a waste of that young man's life.  | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/25/2009 10:51:03 AM | ......................................................................................................................................
Some people stay in their addiction because they are scared shitless about what will happen if they don't. Will their friends abandon them? (Many do!)
There is a perception of "acceptance" when you are with people who share your "poison" so to speak.
I know that Every step I've taken to Improve my life has "cost" me another person or 3. And I know that (in hindsight) those who walked away from me when I quit drinking were not really "Friends" .. they were people I drank with. Sure we shared sob stories .. but in the end, when I was gone,the stories went on and some were even about me!! hehe ..
Getting sober is Not easy - it IS worth it. I'm incredibly fortunate that I had people who Told me (AA members) that I was Worth it >.I was worth getting sober for. I needed them to believe that for me .. until I did. It's really hard to get someone to take the help they need if they don't believe they Deserve it.
Most addicts have incredibly low self esteem. .. even to the point of self-loathing. If you look at the 'big picture' - alcoholism/substance Abuse .. are forms of Slow suicide.
Many addicts have been self-medicating for "reasons" that may or may not make sense to someone else, however; to the addict/alcoholic it may Seem to be the Only way to "deal with" that issue.
There are people who come from extremely abusive families. Sometimes the horror is just too much to bare .. or so it seems.. And in some cases, turning to booze or drugs may actually be a 'better choice' .. it certainly is better than suicide! People who were severely abused as children are often medicating PTSD - Serious stuff! Flashbacks, night terrors .. unbeleiveable stuff .. definitely makes getting clean /sober a challenge!
In those cases, it take a Lot more than AA - but AA is a Good place to start.
Anyway .. Alcoholics .. drug addicts .. people .. men and women .. we are All different. No two are the same, and so Recovery is not the same for any two.
Remember - Relapse is Common. Often the alcoholic/addict is Not even aware themselves that they are "testing" to see if you'll abandon them "too" .. thus proving to themselves that they are not worthy.
btw - I've changed my mind!! I'll take the kudos for doing the friggin work!! Like I said (esp the first year or 2) it was Not easy .. But I'm glad I got to the point where I know I am worth it. Tells me ANYONE can!!  | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/25/2009 12:13:56 PM | | Maybe if she is that far gone she needs an intervention......i'm sure there are people from AA that could help you do this and get her on an inpatient program...this way she could get help and be away from the enabler at the same time.....i'd also report his ass so he couldnt be anyone elses sponser.....good luck!!!!! | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/25/2009 12:37:40 PM | Anybody can be anyone's sponsor. All they have to do is go up to someone after a meeting and give them there phone number and say call me if you want to take a drink.
AA is not hierarchical, it is a lose confederation of other alcoholics. There is no one to report him to, though as one poster suggested the OP could look for an old timer who might take an interest in the situation.
It sounds like you friend needs rehab or too bottom out.
She is never going to get sober hanging out with that guy and it sounds as if she doesn't want to.
I now plenty of people who hung on trying to help someone who wouldn't be helped. I know plenty of guys who finally died of sclerosis. One guy my dad tried to help went to rehab after rehab until he was finally no longer welcome in any in our local area.
I think the best thing you can do is go to meetings with her and steer her towards people who seem to have their stuff together and tell them about that 13th stepping **stard.
It may not do any good if she doesn't want it, but you'll have done all you can. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/25/2009 4:40:05 PM | A.S.is - glad you're accepting the kudos; you truly deserve them.
why my friend's son has chosen this path is anyone's guess. three of his grandparents drank, so my friend feels the deck was stacked against her son. interestingly enough, her daughter doesn't drink. I guess she'll argue the genetic component side of this. my father drank, none of us drink, outside of a glass of wine at dinner or a beer at a ballgame. I have no real idea what his reasons are, but it seems he expects everything the easy way - job, school, you name it. smart kid, always hated school, never applied himself. she gave in to him time after time, to the extent of doing his homework when he was in fifth grade. she didn't want him to fail.
well, he's failing now! and he has three beautiful little boys with his SO. go figure, huh?
I would think he's hit bottom a time or two, but I guess not enough for him to wake up and change. I love him to death, but his behavior and choices are something else. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/25/2009 7:57:57 PM | People .. she is an alcoholic .. she is not going to lose the boyfriend and even if he was reported I doubt that liasons of a sexual nature are new to any group that contacts working vaginas and penis's .. or reasonable facsimiles thereof.... telling on him will only knit the deal.. which is the inevitable, he ain't out of the picture until she says so... and maybe an alcohol poisoning might get her a stay in the psyche ward which could get things rolling but I doubt it .. because when she sobers up .. she can get back out to keep on keeping on..
Best that the OP who is seriously saturated with complete toxicity and enabling and is suffering obsessively over the well being of anothers life and in the meantime killing her own personal emotional health needs to take a massive dose of self preservation or like I said she will get very depressed... she needs to stop her addiction to this addiction!!!!
( All your excuses for friendship ain't working... if you were a friend to yourself you would stop the addiction you seem to be having with the pain this person is causing.. you need to find out why you are burying yourself here .. )
If you can find reasons to separate your well being from this nonsense than you better get with it and realize that acting in the same manner produces the same outcome... nothing is going to change and the only person who you need to worry about changing is .. you know who... YOU.
Stay away from the local alcoholics anonymous where these two are romancing the bottle .. and start weaning your own brain from being completely embroiled in someone who wants to waste their existence .. you are serving yourself the same death sentence by witnessing this and that is where it starts .. stop and get your own life back and after you remember how to breath and think on your own without feeling guilty then you will be helpful to you in every time you sneeze, cough or walk your walk cause lemme tell yah .. you are contributing to the contamination right now .. and if you don't believe that keep on doing what you are doing.. or go whack your brain against the kitchen sink cause you are doing no good to YOU. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:56:26 PM | ....................................................................................................................................
Alcoholism is a very Serious Disease - it affects the whole family (not Just the drinker!) And it affects Friends. Thankfully the OP asked for words from people who KNOW what they are talking about.
Walking away is NOT the answer. Just because this guy is on your friend does NOT mean she is choosing 'it' - she is Just Starting a recovery program!! jayzuz H.!! PEOPLE - There are people with friggin lung cancer that still smoke - You wouldn't throw them to the curb?? WOuld YOU?? well Would YOU??!!
howbigisyourwhatever - You do NOT KNOW****quat! You are not God, and you are Not psychic, nor do You live in this woman (or her friends) head. You apparently have some sort of grief toward people with alcoholism or addiction, your anger is almost frikkin tangible! Who is your negativity supposed to help? The OP is not asking for someone to rescue Her - she is asking a Serious question and wants to Help her Friend - That IS what Friends do btw. Friends don't book on their friends when things get tough, nor do they run because they are afraid of what they don't understand! You don't have to be a decent human being - but you have no business from Attempting to stop others from doing the Right Thing. You should be ashamed of yourself. I hope to God no one has read (or worse) taken you b.s. to heart!! shame shame!
AA Saves Lives. It saved Mine. I know literally hundreds of people - from all over Canada and the USA who would tell you the same thing.
howbigisyourlove - Alcoholics Can and many Do recover. You should Educate yourself before posting. Nasty.
OP - Don't give up. THAT is a Killer for alcoholics. Please Please .. check out the links for AA in your area, check the phone book .. Alanon may or may not be listed - AA surely is and They will be Happy to Help you. That you can take to the bank! | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/25/2009 11:01:27 PM | The original 12 step program was initially inspired by William James, in his book "The Varieties of Religious Experience."
This book actually reviews many types of conversion, including multiple conversions.
It is not a philosophical or scientific account, per se, it rather illustrates what is involved in true conversion from a 'personal' or 'anecdotal' basis. It is reportage, with minimal analysis, a modern 'logoi', or account.
However, the author, Dr. William James, one of the "Great Thinkers" according to Karl Jaspers, does offer one bit of descriptive analysis: he wrote that true conversion is a 'movement' or 'revolution' of the whole of the person, the disposition of the person finally reveals freely (since the definition of the heart is what we call our disposition), and which he calls 'the melting heart'...thus true conversion is a good thing if it dissolves or renders the disposition of the self as it is 'inherently'.
nothing could be easier
chao | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/26/2009 4:34:52 AM | The sex must not be all bad for her either, as he's touching that part of her heart that needs to be touched (and that you can't get to)...however, the fact that he's enabling her alcohol abuse makes him a lousy AA sponsor. I dunno what you should do about this, if anything.
I lost my brother to cancer two years ago, and it left a hole in my heart that never really goes away...but, slowly, I reached out...made new friends...joined a bicycling group-! Been a fun way to socialize healthily and form some new bonds. I'm closer with my parents and remaining siblings now. I realize that I was dodging my heart a lot of years there and not appreciating the people around me who love me. Don't want to make that mistake again.
All ya can do is make suggestions. Whether she takes them is her business. If you get rid of the dude, she'll resent you for it. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/26/2009 5:01:40 AM | SHE has to recognize her enabler and get rid of him...wont do any good for you too do it....hes a real bute by the sound of it and apparently doesnt care bout anyone but himself...its hard to be on the side lines as a friend but the individual going thru these situations have to recognize first in order to ge the help they need.....ie; the program and counseling...good luck! | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/26/2009 5:52:31 AM | ......................................................................................................................................
I am an alcoholic. I've been sober for 16 years, before that? I drank for about 22! When I first went to AA, I did NOT want help. I figured there was No hope or Help for a lowlife like me. ((btw - I am Not a lowlife, that's just the Wrong opinion I had of me back then.)) I Believed that the Only real hope or escape for me was death.
There's an expression around AA - "If you don't get AA, AA will get you." (If you're lucky!)
I joined. I did Everything wrong. Never got a sponsor, got into a relationship right away with another newcomer, continued to go to bars (to gamble) - And I tried Desperately to convince other members that "I" was different. One old guy told me I reminded him of his own self early on! (arrogant jerk! I thought!) He told me he was "terminally unique" - I heard him telling me I wasn't so different! Dammit I WAS! I was going to show them that no matter what, their program, their f'n cures ..blahblahblah - I "Knew" it wouldn't work for me, I "Knew" I didn't deserve to be 'happy' .. not like those friggin people at the meetings ... all happy and smilin like they had a reason to! .. Didn't they know that "I" was dying there!?
Yeah .. they did.
I never spoke it outloud .. not early on, But - My intention was to "hang around" AA for 6 months, then - when I'd "Proved" nothing would work for me, I could 'take the pills'. I very seriously planned my own demise - ie: I gave up on my ownself. For years I figured "If I died, no one would go to the funeral and a week later it would be 'Linda who?' " So, why would I actually Do something For a person I so hated? I wouldn't. Certainly Not early on. Ya know what - I'm not so unique. There aren't very many people who walk into AA and "immediately" adopt the principles, follow the suggestions or Do the 'right thing' for their own selves. Very rare that. Even rarer is the person who finds recovery without (at least) One good friend or family member who isn't in AA.. It's bad enough "we" quit on ourselves .. but when those who "claim" to love us walk away .. which admittedly they have to do Sometimes (in extreme cases) .. what is the point? btw - IMO "extreme cases" are those in which the alcoholic is Abusive toward their friends or loved ones. No one should ever tolerate Abuse - no one. btw - feeling bad because a friend is Sick - is Not being abused, it is having a heart. Friends (real friends) Care and that means sometimes it isnt all fun. FRIENDS take the good with the bad.
They (AA) said: "90 meetings in 90 days." They said "Don't drink, go to meetings" .. Every damned day "They" repeated those stupid steps and those things called "Traditions' ..blahblahblah .. "They" even got me to read sometimes! Then the friggers asked me to do what they call "Service Work"!! WHAT?! Well, I was bored and not getting much sleep, so I took them up on it.
My newcomer relationship didn't work out (needless to say). Somewhere along the line I forgot my "plan" .. and about 7/8 months in I took the 28 day "Rehab Course" .. NOT easy!! again - Worth it. Almost didn't make it through that rehab .. "they" wanted me to work on and talk about my "Feelings" .. My "What"?!! .. Just the thing I'd spent all those years trying to avoid, hide from.. escape.. and here they were wanting to shove me headlong into a pit of raging demons. God, that was 16 years ago .. I am so incredibly fortunate that the day I "thought" I could handle no more and ran crying from the rehab centre. That was it. I "Knew" I was going to die, there was No hope for me.
I was sitting under a tree, bawling, chainsmoking and collecting the energy to carry out a plan I'd forgotten .. briefly. Then an oldtimer, an amazing man whose story should be a movie appeared. He swore at me (he was pretty rough around the edges) and I don't recall what he said, however; the next thing I knew I was back in the rehab.
The Very Few people who didn't give up on me are the reason I am here today. Clean, sober and loving Me. If I can do it - Anyone can.
As for these predators that lurk where vulnerable people go for help? Oh I've met a few of those!! They don't like me! and I'm good with that! .. I have absolutely no problem telling one of that sort (and there are females who target men in recovery too!!) .. No problem at all confronting a jerk who does Anything to hinder a persons recovery.
If it were my friend we were talking about - I would go to AA with her, and I would look for a Solid older female. Then I'd ask if we 3 could meet and chat about my friend, her recovery and mr.sponsor2thedead. I tell ya what - A Good AA member with time sober - like a few years, will know how to deal with the situation. I've seen a group of us women simply surround a newcomer while the guys escort the predator from the room. I've also seen 'us' do the same for a new guy whose got some stupid dolly waggin her boobs at him - totally disregarding his Life or health.
Alcoholics tend to stick together .. we Defend each other and we protect - when we know there is need for protection. Your friend is "new", I've no idea how big the AA groups are where you live, however; it is very possible that the oldtimers don't know what is going on. I betcha you talk to a couple women =- and men (long time sobriety) and your friend will have HEalthy people to talk to and help her through the tough times.
Anyway .. I'm sorry I've gone on and on .. gonna shorten this up ..
After every meeting "They" said: "Keep coming back." It was the ONLY thing I did right.
So, as long as your friend "Keeps going back" (to AA) - She has just as much chance of getting sober and growing to love herself as I did - if not more!! She has YOU. A friend who cares this much is an added bonus for a person early in recovery.
I'm glad you believe she's worth it .. you keep it up and she'll get to where she knows she's worth it too.
btw .. sorry for being so long "winded" .. but obviously this is something very close to my heart, I take it Very seriously. My Mom died a month+ before her 51st birthday. She had what they call a "wet brain" .. most insidious form of insanity you Never want to see. Mom was isolated by her (last) predator. He managed to get between her and her friends and her and her family. Isolation and people walking away when things got tough are what Killed her. The booze was just a tool.
Please - Go to alanon. Go to AA with your friend. Find a "tough" Happy - Longtime sober woman (or 3), talk to them .. With any luck the first person you talk to will be able to help .. generally though it's not that easy .. Nothing worthwhile is ever 'that' easy.
Best of luck to you - you're in my thoughts and prayers. And - Thank You for being a friend .. just in case she forgets to tell you. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/26/2009 8:38:16 PM | Dear A.S.is
howbigisyourwhatever - You do NOT KNOW****quat! You are not God, and you are Not psychic, nor do You live in this woman (or her friends) head. You apparently have some sort of grief toward people with alcoholism or addiction, your anger is almost frikkin tangible! Who is your negativity supposed to help? The OP is not asking for someone to rescue Her - she is asking a Serious question and wants to Help her Friend - That IS what Friends do btw. Friends don't book on their friends when things get tough, nor do they run because they are afraid of what they don't understand! You don't have to be a decent human being - but you have no business from Attempting to stop others from doing the Right Thing. You should be ashamed of yourself. I hope to God no one has read (or worse) taken you b.s. to heart!! shame shame!
You seem to have insight into who I am in a derrogatory way, please spend your time abusing the user name of someone else, I will however refer to you and anyone else in forums by their user names out of common decency and respect. I may not know squat according to you and thanks for telling me I am not God, however I am via my own two cents worth completely aware of that .. hmm.
I am a recovered survivor of professional enabling and no one who is a friend to themselves will allow an addict to eat them alive... addicts are experts in manipulation, and using any tactic emotionally to get all that their brain needs .. THE DRUGS.
There is no such thing as a nice position in dealing with a drug addict ask anyone that successfully deals with rehabilitation clinics .. an addict will cut your throat to get what they want ... friendship is not in their vocabulary.
I lived with an addict of alcohol and if you believe that someone should take their lives into this spin and get eaten alive by someone who doesn't plan on changing.. then all you offer as friendship is same shit different day. Until the OP repositions herself in this the same things happen and that is not even close to where recovery happens and if you believe that being abused by her friend is "friendship" then me accepting your insults to my user name would be to you a compassionate overtone.. sorry not buying it ,..like I said I am a recovered enabler and no one abuses me, including YOU.
I believe that you may know alcolholism from an alcoholic but you are very unaware of how psychologically damaging and emotionally taxing that enabling is ... she works on her via deconstructing her self esteem which is not friendship that is just more abuse ... something to which her friend is like I said an expert at. Addicts are genius at manipulating people as they need to feed an addiction and usually cannot do it without acting parasitical .. if others did not enable then rock bottom is ground zero.
As you pointed out in your recovery .. after you "acted " like a recovering addict you needed to get to a point of true emptiness before you chose life. Friends do not condone nor participate in behaviour that undermine the respect that they should have for themselves . If the friendship is making her feel sick everyday then she needs to care for herself first .. the reality is she will only gain respect by respecting herself and whether you like this attitude or not ........ a good friend cares for themselves first.
You can call that nasty all you want but no one should accept abuse in the guise of friendship, even if it is only to themselves. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/26/2009 8:47:23 PM | | I have a best g.f. who is in aa. Everyone knows in aa one should not date until after a full year of sobriety, periode. Your friend knows this too, and she is unfortunately not serious about her sobriety. She is the only one who can do it. As a friend, and Ive been in your position, there is nothing you can do. When she is using, she is , sadly , out of her mind. You just be there when she wakes up. My friend is like jekyll and hyde! Amazing when sober, so manipulative and conniving when using. I steer clear when she is on the juice! Love her when she is herself;) | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/27/2009 8:15:51 AM | ........................................................................................................................................
Thank God I had FRIENDS who did Not runaway, abandon or view me as 'disposable' when I needed them Most. Thank God there were people who Knew that the Worst thing to do was confirm the very Wrong view I had of my own self. Thank God there were people who were Not bitter toward me over my own self-destructive tendencies way back then..
No one "allowed" me to 'abuse' them or their friendship. No one bought any of my FEAR driven (early sobriety) behaviours. Nowhere did I suggest that Anyone tolerate being abused!! OMG no - Unhealthy behaviour can't possibly correct more unhealthy behaviour.
That being said:
addicts are experts in manipulation, and using any tactic emotionally to get all that their brain needs .. THE DRUGS.
There is no such thing as a nice position in dealing with a drug addict ask anyone that successfully deals with rehabilitation clinics .. an addict will cut your throat to get what they want ... friendship is not in their vocabulary.
I have dealt with Rehab Clinics .. I have also taken the NICE stance when dealing with other recovering addicts/alcoholics. Very often it is that They have been Abused that led them to where they are - how would being Ignorant or pulling away help Anyone?
This addict has NEVER cut anyones throat to get what I "needed". This addict has NEVER taken (True) Friendship lightly!
THIS addict has been Clean, Sober and There for those who are not Yet there for themselves for 16 years.
IF you aren't part of the solution - You're part of the problem. IF you can't deal with an addict/alcoholic without feeling somehow that You are being used/abused or otherwise negatively impacted - then Don't. We all have choices.
I suggest if you can HELP - do so, if not = keep on walkin. Far as I'm concerned this world would be a whole lot better off if we were less selfish and self centered and actually did what our grand parents did - Help each other. Regardless of whether it is addiction or some other painful life circumstance - Most of us Need help at some point in our lives and Fortunately - SOME of us get it .. SOME of us give it.
No one is obliged to help or be there for anyone else. THIS addict is sure glad people were there for me.
All addicts are NOT the same.
btw - this is Not "just" This addicts opinion - I have lots of friends who work in rehab clinics ..Lots of friends who have also been clean and sober for many years .. Not one of us would see a person who is acting out of their own pain as abusing us!! We know better.
If you're still angry at an addict or addicts in general - It is my most sincere hope that you will get the help you need to heal that part of your own heart.
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/27/2009 3:31:57 PM | how big is your love...as a fellow recovering enabler: RIGHT ON
A.S.is...I'm very happy and proud of you for dealing with your addiction...but some of us are on the other side of the fence. We know that we can help you, be your friend, drive you to meetings...but we can also lose ourselves in the process so we must be careful in the way we help...we can't recover for you and we need to remember that. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/27/2009 4:03:11 PM | | WALK AWAY, WHEN SHE FALLS HARD ENOUGH AND NEEDS YOUR HELP SHE WILL COME, BUT FOR KNOW STAY AWAY, BUT LET HER KNOW YOUR THEIR FOR HER WHEN SHE NEEDS YOU. SHE HAS TO BE READY. REMEMBER YOUR NOT AN ALCOHOLIC UNTILL YOU GO TO AA BY YOURSELF. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/28/2009 10:54:37 AM | Everyone, and I mean everyone should have a friend as compassionate as the
OP. Her so called "sponsor" needs to be ratted on or talked to first, about getting out of your friends life..He is supposed to be helping her get through her addiction and he is part of it and exacerbating it...what an absolutely low human being he is..He knows exactly what he's doing and the hold he has over her..Its all about power. All the posters who suggested you going to Alanon have it right. Fortunately, I've never been in this situation but I do know how it is to try to deal with a friend who has major problems...Walking away is not the humane way to go, and you know it..There is an answer for every problem the first may not work, so try the second and so on..The main thing is that she's going to have to stop..It is all up to her wanting it. You can talk till your blue, and if she's not ready, its not going to work..This is hard on you too, but sometimes people come into our lives and its not always sweetness and light. Thats life..The best of luck to you and to her. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/28/2009 12:54:50 PM | | the problem is she is depending on him and not the programme. Theres lots of support out there but you have to make the descision that you cant depend on others to solve your problem you been depending on booze and just switched it to people nope won't work gotta go it on your own with lots and lots of meetings and lots and lots of lonley times but when the sun finally shines it's gonna take her breath away and lead her down paths she never imagined and damn what a wonderful trip!!! | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/31/2009 7:39:44 AM |
Your friend should study Maslow's theory of hierarchy.
I pulled this from WIKIPEDIA to dust the cobwebs off my memory of 1976... LOL. But, what Wikipedia is saying is consistent with what was being taught in High School. I will let the following words stand as my opinion as well.
"While Maslow's theory was regarded as an improvement over previous theories of personality and motivation, it had its detractors. For example, in their extensive review of research which is dependent on Maslow's theory, Wahba and Bridgewell[8] found little evidence for the ranking of needs Maslow described, or even for the existence of a definite hierarchy at all. Conducted in 2002, a recent study forwards this line of thought, claiming that "the hierarchy of needs is nothing more than a fool's daydream; there is no possible way to classify ever-changing needs as society changes"[9].[unreliable source?]Chilean economist and philosopher Manfred Max Neef has also argued fundamental human needs are non-hierarchical, and are ontologically universal and invariant in nature - part of the condition of being human; poverty, he argues, is the result of any one of these needs being frustrated, denied or unfulfilled". | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/31/2009 9:03:06 AM | Talking about the motivation between the desire of wants and the importance of needs is like talking about night and day. I, for one, believe in the Maslow theory as it appeals to my common sense. That if a person has choice regarding behavior (needs fulfilled) they move on to their wants and how they achieve them, or what is more important to them is an expression of character.
There is a distinct difference with some one who is trying to meet their needs of food water shelter air etc. The fact that they need these things to survive is not an expression of character, maybe how they get em is.
C <img src=http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_27.gif border=>
P.S... last time I looked Wikipaedia was written by contributor bloggers like you and me.... | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 1/31/2009 9:42:24 AM | i get a little concerned about the tendency of people to use the common fall-back of "she's got to want it". I think its unhelpful and misses the point. when someone has such a low opinion of themselves "wanting it " is almost inconceivable and inappropriate imho.
Firstly she probably doesnt believe she deserves it since she is so full of unbearable pain and self loathing. secondly she is not in her right mind due to the illness and will be needing a lot of care and support in order to be able to get to a point where she may be able to gather enough strength to be able to begin to want it cause she deserves to want it and have the tools at her disposal to be able to implement this "want". What really irks me about this "wanting" it rubbish that people bandy about so easily is that it allows people to absolve themselves from supporting or showing compassion to someone so in need of compassion and relationship. Hence they get left on their own again to self destruct cause others have given up on them. Of course im not saying that it is not extremely difficult and tiresome trying to help someone so hell bent on hurting themselves, but as "AS is" pointed out it was only through the support of a very few others who did not give up on her that she was able to keep going and turn a very big long nasty corner.
oh and i have to say i agree with As is in her previous posts on this subject.
"How big is your love", i have to wonder how big was that bitter pill you had to swallow cause it must be leaving a very strong taste in your mouth indeed, cause your spilling bile all over the gaff. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 2/3/2009 8:36:21 AM |
i get a little concerned about the tendency of people to use the common fall-back of "she's got to want it"....
Firstly she probably doesnt believe she deserves it since she is so full of unbearable pain and self loathing...
Ssecondly she is not in her right mind...
I encourage you to sit in one Al-Anon meeting a day for two straight weeks, without missing a single day. You will see that your posting flirst with enabling and SUFFERING alcoholic.
Answering your other points, specifically.
*She has to want it. No one can do it for her. If she doesn't want to stop drinking... she won't... NO MATTER HOW HARD ANYONE TRIES TO SAVE HER.
*Low self-esteem is part of the problem. No one can build her up if she isn't trying, first!
*As a recovering Alcoholic, I can tell you with an absolute certainty that drunks are never of their right mind.
12 step programs are impartial and objective. It doesn't matter who one is or what they have... all that matters is going somewhere where they can learn how to live a better life... how to be appropriate... and in some cases, to save their OWN life. If a drunk doesn't want to change... they will stay a drunk. PERIOD.
It seems cruel... and I can tell that you have compassion for others... BUT, that is why they call it tough love. It doesn't feel like we are being very loving towards that person, but the best thing that can happen to a drunk is to hit their bottom and want to change their lives... IF they SURVIVE their bottom. Most drunks do not survive their alcoholism. | |
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