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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 2/3/2009 8:41:48 AM | I do believe there is some kind of rule that those involved with AA should not date within a year of their attempt at sobriety, also there is a clause that a sponsor should not become romantically involved with their sponsored..
You should notify the local chapter and report this man with the knowledge that you have.
I would normally not recommend this, but you are looking out for the well being of your friend, and she is at a vulnerable place right now. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 2/3/2009 9:22:06 AM |
My question is this - her "sponsor" is also her sometimes boyfriend and provides her with alcohol to get his way.
I can guarantee you this, this guy is a douchebag. He doesn't have good recovery, I don't care how much "time" he has without a drink or a drug. He does NOT represent the proper recovery process, whether it's AA, or any other 12 step program. The FIRST RULE of SPONSORSHIP is this; "Men with the men, and women with the women" She's also supposed to know better, and have a female sponsor. This twisted situation is the exact reason WHY this is done. She's also guilty, because she knows this guy will enable her drinking/drugging.
There are no victims, only volunteers. Some people get away with being predators in the fellowships of AA and NA based on that fact. She's willing too. While I don't agree with that, it basically is the truth. I don't agree with it because it defies at least one of our traditions concerning how we conduct ourselves in groups and the right way to work with and help others. People come in very naive and pretty badly bruised, it's pretty sh_tty when these a$sh_les decide to take advantage of the trust these newcomers are trying to develop in recovery and the fellowship.
I had something like that happen to me with a female in my 2nd year sober who has alot more time than me. She wasn't after sex (that's what I wanted, and where I was vulnerable to her predatory nature) She wasn't my sponsor and she wasn't getting me drunk or high either (if I relapse, I made a choice to do it), just using me for other things, like money, favors, errands, etc., etc. I was too trusting in my early years of sobriety. I needed a male sponsor to help me cope with life without a drink or a drug. I'm glad I had a very good one for those first few years. I mean, back then ANYONE with more sober time than me looked like they had their sh_t together. That's just not the case.
You find out after a while that some people really are sicker than others. Some have real mental and emotional problems. Some suffer from other addictions (like sex, gambling, spending, etc., etc).
The person suffering from addiction will not get better until they start to follow the rules of the program, like men with male sponsors, and women with female sponsors. She needs to drop this idiot and find woman that has what she wants and ask her to be her sponsor. That's my suggestion.
Sadly there will always be some real sicko's in recovery. They are what we refer to as "13th steppers" on both sides of the gender fence that take advantage of newcomers. There is no 13th step in our literature, and it's simply a nickname for what we call them. Depending on the amount of time this guy has, he probably has already earned a reputation as a dirt-bag. People like this get ostracized from the groups, but some just get away with it and even seem like "popular" members of the groups.
I wish you and your friend the best, and really hope she finds recovery. Please pass on what I've mentioned here, if you feel it will help. You are definitely a good friend to care this much.
Mike | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 2/3/2009 9:49:34 AM | Yes, the "rule" is men with the men and women with the women where sponsorship is concerned. The rule is no major changes for the first year of recovery. Especially meaning no new relationships. The reason it's 1 year, is because many may find that they need more time than a year after they've gotten some time under their belt and started working on the 12 steps and the program of recovery with a sponsor. The steps eventually become a working part of ones consciousness.
It's actually a good sign that someone's getting better when they can say for themselves that they aren't ready for a relationship. Some people don't attempt their first relationship for many years after getting clean and sober.
Recovery from any addiction is really just a process of self acceptance and becoming comfortable in ones own skin. It's about knowing there is a god and it's not me. It's about learning how to live life on life's terms (as opposed to my terms). It's about personal accountability and responsibility. It's about growing-up. The addict and alcoholic really comes into recovery like a child (king-baby) wanting to grasp for anything outside of themselves to fill this god shaped void they feel they have inside. The only way to fill it is with god/or a power greater than myself and of my own understanding.
Eventually those nasty mental obsessions are lifted and we just find some real peace and serenity. It's really what we thought we were finding in a bottle, or (for some) a crack stem.
Mike | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 2/3/2009 10:16:48 AM |
It isn't the boyfriend's fault! It isn't her mother's death! Or any of the other crappy things that have happened in her life! She's a drunk! She will get sober or she won't! Let that be her decision! Find the nearest treatment center and what it takes to get in! Give her one choice - go or you walk! If she would rather drink than go into treatment, then you have your answer!
That's the truth!! Tough love is what it comes down to. As I even said, she's not without fault. She has made a choice. Nobody held a gun to my head and said "drink or I'll shoot!!" Someone posted about reporting this guy to AA also. This guy may already have a reputation in the fellowship. I definitely don't agree with what he's doing. I have had some situations with females who have less time than me, I made sure they had female sponsors, I never once offered them "sponsorship" or would even think about it, and I would never even think about offering them drugs or alcohol. How could I offer that which I don't have, nor have any use for, nor believe in? It was very clear what it was and what it wasn't.
What we learn is like what kbodley posted and I quoted. We were responsible for what we did, nobody else. I was responsible for what I did, even some of the really screwed-up stuff I did in early recovery. So while I could have gone to a meeting this woman I talked about was at and made some formal announcement about it, I also played a part in it, I volunteered for it. Many may have just laughed me out of the room, who knows? I chose, instead to just share that stuff with my closest friends in AA (like my sponsor). I learned not to let my d_ck do the thinking for me and not to hang around women with such a shady past, even if they are XXX years sober.
Mike | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 4/29/2009 10:31:48 PM |
I have a friend who has been thru some very rough times recently. Lost her mother, got divorced, lost her job. Have tried to talk her thru a lot of it but can't imagine going thru this myself?!?!? Like to consider myself a good friend & supporter type - but she is just lost?!?! She is a recovering alcoholic and fell off the wagon....hard! Know that because I have personally made a few midnite runs myself to get her home safely. My question is this - her "sponsor" is also her sometimes boyfriend and provides her with alcohol to get his way. Sex or anything else -
In the midwest, they call boyfriends like that headhunters or 13th steppers, which basically translate to losers. Sponsors are typically same sex mentors for a reason. At best, recovery from alcoholism is 5% drinking problem, and 95% thinking problem.
kinda plays what ever he want's on her addiction & she does it! Don't understand it - thought AA had rules? Want to tell her to walk away from this man and find a real sponsor but she is convinced he is the only one who really "cares" about her & considers me a nag. What can I do to help her as I am very concerned for her well being - we were like sisters growing up?!? Any advice - how do I get rid of the guy here? Thanks!
You can't get rid of the guy, but you can find your way to an al-anon meeting, and begin to learn to deal with yourself. Nagging doesn't help, and kindness doesn't help, and in fact can be fatal. As for rules, well, there are traditions, and there's quite a bit of history of what works and what doesn't work. I wont sponsor a woman but make sure when asked, like I was last Thursday, make sure she has at least 3 names of 3 different woman I think could be of benefit to her in that area. When it happened last time, I simply explained that a good deal of intimate information is exchanged with a sponsor, and when it's man/woman, sometimes that intimacy (not sexual), can get weird, and I'd be the last person to screw someone out of their sobriety.
There's a nifty rule, tradition 3, which also offers alot of latitude. Did you know she doesn't need to actually be sober to go to a meeting? While it'd be best if she kept her mouth shut while drunk, it'd be good for her and the group she attends. "The only requirement for membership is the _desire_ to stop drinking." From my perspective, I think it's very helpful when a drunk shows up in a meeting. It quickly reminds me of my last drunk, blood everywhere, pathetic, and miserable. I've had the most pleasurable experience of bringing my share of drunks to meetings, once in colorado, and several times in meetings in California and here. Every time I smell alcohol in the meetings I just know how bad that feels and I'm reminded of that sweet smell of defeat. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 5/1/2009 7:00:04 AM | You seem to be a very caring person and and your friend does not really know how lucky she is.
I have read some of the responses here and there is some good advice.
As you knw, with any addiction, they are not going to quit until they face there demon.
Do you think if this guy was out of the picture she would quit? Maybe she likes the sex. It may not all be about the alcohol.
Try going to one of her meetings and if you can speak. Without naming names put the question of a sponsor enabling aperson instead of trying to keep them on the wagon.
I know you don't want to lose your friend and there ia where you have to be careful.
Maybe go to the head of the AA rep. and talk to them. If $hithead gets kick out, he is out. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 5/1/2009 9:46:18 AM | | Your friend or you might be better off looking to the medical field to help with this problem. She may have what is called a "vulnerability to addiction". Not only does it sound like she is subject to alcoholic dependency but it seems that she is or has developed seperate dependency's (ie: the boyfriend etc.). New research into this has brought about treatments that quite frankly AA or Al Anon just don't deal with. It is a broader explanation and possible avenue for real help than she is getting. Yes it is thought to be a genetic based problem, but seems to me that if you look deeper than the obvious you may be better able to help your friend. Get her to see a doctor who is current on "Molecular Neurobiology". I think her "addictions" are more neurological dependencies. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/14/2009 2:37:01 PM | | Turn his low life ass down please!!!! Sorry i read your second Q. before replying. Even if it hurts your friend, this is her life, and thusfar it looks like she has done a pretty good job at hurting herself and the people around her. You sound like you r a pretty good friend. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/23/2009 12:18:21 AM | | Nothing you can do to help her. She wants to drink and she seems to enjoy sex with him. If she calls him her sponsor shes simply bullshitting you. Everyone knows in AA that men dont sponsor women and everyone knows in AA that sponsors dont provide sponsees with alcohol,lol. You can get rid of that guy if you want the hard way but there are other dogs waiting for your gf. Bottom line, people dont fall off the wagon, they jump off the wagon. She wants to drink and have sex so let it be. As a "sister" pick her up when she ask for help. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/23/2009 12:46:10 AM | | What 12 step programs teach loved ones and family members of addicts is that they can't change ANYONE but themselves. As much as we may love someone, we cannot take their journey for them or make the better choices. She is on the path she is with this guy bc there is something she needs to learn out of this experience, even if it is a hard lesson, and he is totally selfish. Unfortunately, it takes as long as it takes, and we cannot remove a person's blind spots for them. It takes great faith and surrender to truly let go and give the situation up to God, but if we believe we can be that one voice of reason that will help them change, that too is a form of arrogance and interference. Its truly wonderful that you love her so much. If she felt you pulling away from her to protect your own serenity, that might cause her to think things through more. Best of luck to you and her- keep the faith! | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/23/2009 3:34:47 AM | Many have said it in a round about way but I am going to put it simple for you "THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO!!"
I was married to an alcoholic for 20 years and I tried everything known to man to "help". It took me 5 years of therapy to finally "get it" and the healthier I got the worse the marriage got. This may very well happen to your friendship as you realize "THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO".
Alcoholism is a disease of family and friends....go get well friend. | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/23/2009 9:09:50 AM |
My question is this - her "sponsor" is also her sometimes boyfriend and provides her with alcohol to get his way. Sex or anything else - kinda plays what ever he want's on her addiction & she does it! Don't understand it - thought AA had rules? Want to tell her to walk away from this man and find a real sponsor but she is convinced he is the only one who really "cares" about her & considers me a nag.
AA has strict rules about this stuff. Your friend is lying to you. She's not part of any AA program and that dude of hers is only sponsoring his c*ck in her mouth.
I've been involved with AA since 1997, and back in 1997 and even 2009, they still advise the same thing regarding sponsors:
women have wowmen sponsers; men have men sponsors. And if you're not married or have an SO, they advise not to have sex until after the first year of sobriety.
So, how do you like them apples? | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/23/2009 11:03:04 AM | | Try n help her accept that they both have relapsed. Ask her to explain what a sponsor is again to you........... if she has been stepped she will identify with him as her drinking partner and not her sponsor - even if this was how it started between them it is not this way now. I would suggest saying they both need help - ask her to seek out someone in her group with long term sobriety | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/23/2009 11:19:55 AM | You people are clueless!
AA does not have any fecking rules at all. The entire program is based on suggestions and good examples.
Anyone who has been in the rooms knows that they "suggest" that you find a sponsor of the same sex. Just like they suggest that if you are going to just from a plane you should have a parachute!
If your friend had any type of program going on in the first place, none of this would be going on.
The last thing anyone ever needs is others helping them play the victim. She is to blame for any choices she has made.
She knows here choices. She only has 3.
Locked up
Covered up
Or sobered up
P.s. OP, your helping her as much as he is! Sympathy will kill a drunk.
Poor me poor me pour me another one! | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/23/2009 11:36:57 AM |
"sponsor" is also her sometimes boyfriend and provides her with alcohol to get his way. Sex or anything else - kinda plays what ever he want's on her addiction & she does it! Don't understand it - thought AA had rules
.
.OUCH. This is NOT a good situation. Even for HIM. When she DOES hit bottom, and comes to her senses, i would NOT want to be that guy....she;ll likely (for cause even?) castrate the SOB.
Most substance abusers...also have deeper underlying relational/sex/substitute addictions, which their chosen substance is merely a symptom that keeps them trapped. His playing/enabling/USING her...is his OWN addiction.
There are rules. The rooms are gender, and issue specific.
A sponsor of the "opposite" gender....is unusual, and undesirable for this very reason.
Is she in professional counseling? Her stressors are at a critical level, and she surely needs STRONG supporty group...TRUSTED friend, PROFESSIONAL intervention, SAFE spirituality....
Not sure you CAN do anything for her except only accept her as your friend, work at your own stuff (beware of enabling; VERY TOXIC)...
and maybe accompany her to the meetings...
Facilitator (hopefully he is NOT the sponsor also) might pick up on the vibes, but be cautious of coming right out and reporting. Confidentiality and all...personal rights.. (your friend CAN choose any path, after all) | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/23/2009 11:52:40 AM | hey, i personally know how hard it is for you to go through this, understand though as long as you are not suppling her money and booze, you are a friend, but sometimes it is called tough love, by not responding to her.
As for the so called boyfriend, he is not, he is a user fo all sort. understand this though also, she is an addict, until she accepts or admits the fact she is an addict and understand what she need to do she will never quit drinking.
not sure where you live, but there are many places she can check herself into for 30-60-90 days or even a year. I recommand going to aa or na meetings, i have been to
na meetings that are opened while trying to help a love one, this gave me the insight to know that i was enabling him, and that I needed to be stronger and say no. you can look up meeting times on the net for either one. naranon is na, and alonon is aa.
yes, the first time attending is the hardest, we all think we are alone but we are not | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/23/2009 3:58:11 PM | ^^^rockman says what he says because he knows...
but since you asked, in order for anyone to affect change in their life, they have to do it themselves, for themselves. Otherwise it is only happening to placate someone else. It's the same with addicts. You can help them, talk to them, do for them until you are blue in the face, but until they decide to recover, it's not happening.
Us little codependents like to help addicts...including managing their program of recovery for them. We do lots of work for them to make sure their life doesn't completely fall apart...so they don't have to do anything for themselves. They don't like it, and it wears us out. A classic lose-lose situation.
No one ever forces anyone to do something. There is always a choice involved, even if that choice is simply to live or die | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/25/2009 8:43:30 AM | RE. Beehearnow - choices are affected by other factors in life......the effects can and also does affect a persons ability to choose!!
Do you think all addicts decide one day they will just become an addict.....lol i dont think so.
I totally agree that it is down to the individual to bring about change in their life but it is not as simple as they choose too and its their fault.
and this one knows what she is talking about aswell | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/25/2009 9:30:56 AM | Layken--your situation sounds like one of a long-lost friend of mine, Raymond, of years past. I say long-lost because he committed suicide thirteen years ago.
His own trial began in 1995, when his then girlfriend, Sonja, gave birth to their son, Ray, Jr. Ray, as any proud father would, worked hard to provide for his family. Six months later, another man had gotten in Sonja's mind, forcing her to declared that she was done with Ray, and taking Ray, Jr. away. This devastated Ray for several months. It lead to a progressive depression which eventually lead to unemployment, and a nasty custody fight.
Ray, Jr. ended up with Sonja, with her parents having legal right in case of incident. Well, in January 1996, Sonja and her new boyfriend were in a fatal car crash. One-year-old Ray, Jr. was with his grandparents at the time of Sonja's death. Ray, already in a state of depression, blamed himself for her death. People often said he seemed to want to avenge her death with his own. But, so often others would remind him of Ray, Jr. The only problem, was that Ray, Jr. was in the hands of her parents.
Well, over the next few months, Ray had begun to show some progress. He moved in with his sister Jennifer. Got a new job, and provided monetary support for Ray, Jr. But, not having his son tore at him very often. So, he made one more effort to regain custody of his son. The judge disallowed him to regain custody. This was the final nail in his coffin.
With this, Ray was pushed to brink of destruction. In November, after having not spoken to him in three years, he called me at home late at night. We spoke for an hour; I knew I had to let him do the talking. Every twist and turn seemed to just make no sense yet make perfect sense. Life is a winding road, after all. I went to go visit him at his sister's place. We hung out outdoors for a while before entering the house. When he was calmed, I took the opportunity to leave. My mistake was leaving.
A few hours later, I received a call from Jennifer, his sister. Ray had taken a knife to his jugular. He had taken his own life.
Ray was a rival of mine in high school, we had become a friend. Sometimes in life we have people come in who need us, more than we need them. We're given a purpose by God to save those who are seemingly out of reach. In this, we are charged to stay the course for them. Your friend is need of you to stay the course for her.
She may feel that you're being a nag, but the alcohol is nagging her to stay. You, need to stay for her. She is already doing better because you are there for her.
Danz | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/25/2009 5:01:20 PM | Rockman - why do you think her friend deserves no help?? why also do you think it is her friends choice and she is to blame??
If you enable another who you know has a problem, you are also to blame.
And this post answers your questions very well to.
^^^rockman says what he says because he knows...
but since you asked, in order for anyone to affect change in their life, they have to do it themselves, for themselves. Otherwise it is only happening to placate someone else. It's the same with addicts. You can help them, talk to them, do for them until you are blue in the face, but until they decide to recover, it's not happening.
Us little codependents like to help addicts...including managing their program of recovery for them. We do lots of work for them to make sure their life doesn't completely fall apart...so they don't have to do anything for themselves. They don't like it, and it wears us out. A classic lose-lose situation.
No one ever forces anyone to do something. There is always a choice involved, even if that choice is simply to live or die
- choices are affected by other factors in life......the effects can and also does affect a persons ability to choose!!
Nope. Excuses are affected by other factors of life.
Do you think all addicts decide one day they will just become an addict.....lol i dont think so.
That has nothing to do with this at all. We are talking about someone who knows they are a drunk and has relapse!
I totally agree that it is down to the individual to bring about change in their life but it is not as simple as they choose too and its their fault.
Try that argument with a judge during a bail hearing for the friends 2 nd DUI arrest!
and this one knows what she is talking about aswell
Pass that one by your sponsor, I'm sure they could use the laugh! | |
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| Serious question here...want to hear from those who know
Posted: 7/25/2009 5:03:17 PM | She is a recovering alcoholic and fell off the wagon....hard! Know that because I have personally made a few midnite runs myself to get her home safely. My question is this - her "sponsor" is also her sometimes boyfriend and provides her with alcohol to get his way. Sex or anything else - kinda plays what ever he want's on her addiction & she does it! Don't understand it
That sucks.
It could be a co-dependancy issue. It might not be exactly as you perceive it, but it very well may be exactly as you perceive it.
Alcoholism is a very complex issue.
thought AA had rules?
I would have thought so as well. If she is still going, I think I'd bring it to the attention of their AA chapter.
Want to tell her to walk away from this man and find a real sponsor but she is convinced he is the only one who really "cares" about her & considers me a nag.
That's classic. Being oppositional with someone who's not going through the same thing as them, as they are going through withdrawl.
What can I do to help her as I am very concerned for her well being - we were like sisters growing up?!? Any advice - how do I get rid of the guy here? Thanks!
If you really can't make any impact on her yourself, it's probably best to contact as many close friends and family and attempt an intervention. | |
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