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| | Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial artsPage 2 of 6 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) | | jeet kune do - PRINCIPLES ie NOT kali based [knife/stick/groundwork] ONLY. !! an absolute revelation after 20 yrs being 'in the darkness' ie what we get told by instructors who have never REALLY been in a recent fight. soo combat effective with excellent philosophical basis. ITs about simplicity and directness...and my god it works ! by the way guys, very little grounwork coverd or needed. shock horror !! | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/11/2009 11:13:31 PM | Have never seen anybody win on striking skills alone,
Then you havent watched much UFC. Cung Lee comes to mind.
MMA is mixed up martial arts. Its got a shelf life of about 5 years. After taking repeated shots to the head you end up stupid. Look at Ali. By the time you hit 35 MMA is over. And please dont quote this Randy Coutour stuff to me. Hes 44 and got pwned by a 20 something Brock Lesnar.
Karate and other traditional arts continue long after you are finished your prime. Look at the Gracie family. Living well into his 90s, the founder died at 95.
I feel really sad for all these dumb asses who are signing up for MMA classes. I would hate to see their CT scans in 5 years. Taking punches to the head and body while training is the height of stupidity. Thats why kata were invented, so you didnt end up like Ali...unable to tie your own shoe at 50. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/12/2009 5:26:16 PM | This is not a bad location for this thread. As I've said before, Martial Arts only overlaps with sports and self-defense. Most people I know take M A to stay in shape. Of course, if you are in shape you would be better in a sport and, from my experience, it's a lot easier to defend yourself.
A lot of the veteran Angels realized it was better to let a perp wear himself out running or attacking than to jump straight in and kill yourself going for immediate control. We were better trained and in better shape than most of them. (NOT true of ALL Angels.) In spite of the way they are presented on TV and in movies, a lot of b-boys are in bad shape.
Shockingly, a lot of illegal activities, are also unhealthy. Who'da thunk?  | |
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Edsta
| | Joined: 7/19/2008
Msg: 30 | |
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/12/2009 6:25:29 PM | Have never seen anybody win on striking skills alone,
Then you havent watched much UFC. Cung Lee comes to mind.
MMA is mixed up martial arts. Its got a shelf life of about 5 years. After taking repeated shots to the head you end up stupid. Look at Ali. By the time you hit 35 MMA is over. And please dont quote this Randy Coutour stuff to me. Hes 44 and got pwned by a 20 something Brock Lesnar.
Karate and other traditional arts continue long after you are finished your prime. Look at the Gracie family. Living well into his 90s, the founder died at 95.
I feel really sad for all these dumb asses who are signing up for MMA classes. I would hate to see their CT scans in 5 years. Taking punches to the head and body while training is the height of stupidity. Thats why kata were invented, so you didnt end up like Ali...unable to tie your own shoe at 50.
Hmm, Lee's listing on Wiki has him doing only 4 MMA fights, the most famous one a win over an aging Frank Shamrock last fall. Most of his fighting seems to be in kickboxing matches. So he hasn't had that much exposure in the UFC as far as I can tell.
35 is not a bad age to quit MMA, when you consider than Thai fighters usually retire by 25 and that's all standup.
As for 44 year old Randy Couture getting beat by a 20 year old, that makes perfect sense: MMA is all about brute force, speed and ability to absorb punishment now that everybody has developed a common level of basic grappling competency---notice how the Gracies are no longer dominant?
As for brain damage, MMA is actually safer than classical boxing because the fights are a lot shorter and the lighter gloves actually do less damage. The majority of MMA fights are still won on the ground through some sort of lock or hold, last I watched (don't have TV so it's only occasionally at friends' houses these days).
No I wouldn't want to ever compete in MMA, but the training that you can do at any MMA gym is going to make you a better REAL WORLD fighter than the vast majority of traditional martial arts---it's all conditioning and full contact sparring. Of course the Achilles heel (one of them) in TMA is that most of the time you're training to counter moves that only another practitioner in the same art would be dumb enough to ever attempt---LOL ever seen somebody attack with a stepping reverse punch, an axe kick or an overhead hammer fist from a standing position? Way too many useless, idiotic and downright suicidal techniques, like using a cross-block against a downward stab? Then by the time you get to black belt you end up having to unlearn a lot of this garbage and they finally start teaching you a few useful things that might actually work in real life.
(Yes, I realize there are exceptions like kenpo, wing tsun, san shou, etc. which have much more of a pragmatic bent.)
Of course if one is smart, one avoids getting into street fights to begin with, period. But in a pinch, I'd rather have an MMA guy covering my back than 90% of traditional black belts.
Otherwise I'd agree that TMA is a more feasible lifelong training activity, sure. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/13/2009 4:26:56 AM |
Have never seen anybody win on striking skills alone,
Then you havent watched much UFC. Cung Lee comes to mind.
Not true. Even the better strikers in MMA have some grappling training, if for noting else than to be able to stop takedowns, etc.
MMA is mixed up martial arts. Its got a shelf life of about 5 years. After taking repeated shots to the head you end up stupid. Look at Ali. By the time you hit 35 MMA is over. And please dont quote this Randy Coutour stuff to me. Hes 44 and got pwned by a 20 something Brock Lesnar.
That is idiotic. MMA is much safer than boxing. Boxers cannot stop the other guy from punching them in the head, like in MMA.
Karate and other traditional arts continue long after you are finished your prime. Look at the Gracie family. Living well into his 90s, the founder died at 95.
Gracie family participated in MANY UFC-like ValeTudo fights, so you might want to check your facts, partner. Gracie Jujitsu is a full-contact art.
I feel really sad for all these dumb asses who are signing up for MMA classes. I would hate to see their CT scans in 5 years. Taking punches to the head and body while training is the height of stupidity. Thats why kata were invented, so you didnt end up like Ali...unable to tie your own shoe at 50.
Garbage. You clearly do not know anything about MMA. | |
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Edsta
| | Joined: 7/19/2008
Msg: 32 | |
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/13/2009 10:14:45 AM | Saw some of Cung Lee's fights on YouTube last night. Incredible striker, but he was also a collegiate All-American wrestler. So he knows something about groundwork for sure...in the fight against Ken Shamrock, he easily shook off Shamrock's attempts to clinch and ground.
What will be really interesting would be if he ever gets a shot to fight Anderson Silva, the undefeated UFC middleweight champ---that could be a game changer if he wins, but having seen Silva fight I doubt it. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/14/2009 4:32:08 PM | Kenpo
You are obviously a young dude with not much experience. So I will let your comments pass. Talk to me when you have been training for 25 years.
the training that you can do at any MMA gym is going to make you a better REAL WORLD fighter '
No it isnt. A gun, a bat and a knife will. Streetfights are all about blunt and edged weapons. MMA vs. 2 dudes with knives....not sure about that outcome. Now, I wouldnt take exception to your comments, except for this misconception, MMA is better than traditional arts for self defense. Not sure that is true.
MMA..knocked down, goes into guard. I punch to groin, he cries.
MMA grapples, shoots it. I bite nose, hard, he cries.
MMA pummels for position, I poke eye, he cries.
My point being, MMA is a sport, its not fighting. Fighting is ugly, horrible, mean, never one on one and never without weapons. Unless you like old cowboy movies where John Wayne trades fisticuffs with the evil bandito over a woman in the bar.
Hence my encouragement for people to take up a traditinal art. Longer shelf life, personal growth, fitness, longevity. If you want to fear no man, buy an Uzi.
No one wins a fight. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/14/2009 9:05:29 PM |
Kenpo
You are obviously a young dude with not much experience. So I will let your comments pass. Talk to me when you have been training for 25 years.
*snort*
Oh, you're absolutely right. I am 39 and have been training since I was 15 - that's only 24 years. I'll talk to you in JULY. 
No it isnt. A gun, a bat and a knife will. Streetfights are all about blunt and edged weapons. MMA vs. 2 dudes with knives....not sure about that outcome. Now, I wouldnt take exception to your comments, except for this misconception, MMA is better than traditional arts for self defense. Not sure that is true.
Not sure if you were addressing m with that, since you are not referencing my quote. However, I believe that many MMA places *are* better to train in, since they account for athletic resistance in training, which many (not all) trad places do not. Your average fat-a$$ trad black belt will get mauled in a street-fight because he will gas out, not to mention that the typical lack of contact sparring in all ranges will leave him clueless as to proper timing and distancing. But I'm sure you already knew that, with your massive 25+ years training.
MMA..knocked down, goes into guard. I punch to groin, he cries.
MMA grapples, shoots it. I bite nose, hard, he cries.
MMA pummels for position, I poke eye, he cries.
All this is hypothetical garbage. You assume that MMA folk won't poke or bite YOU? They already have the superior position ( and probably conditioning) to do it. I am guessing that you have never grappled with so much as a BJJ white-belt, who would probably put you on your a$$ immediately.
My point being, MMA is a sport, its not fighting. Fighting is ugly, horrible, mean, never one on one and never without weapons. Unless you like old cowboy movies where John Wayne trades fisticuffs with the evil bandito over a woman in the bar.
A fight is a fight once it's on. Physics and mechanics don't change. And the only people that say "never" about fights are people that have never been in one.
Hence my encouragement for people to take up a traditinal art. Longer shelf life, personal growth, fitness, longevity. If you want to fear no man, buy an Uzi.
Notice how "learn to fight" isn't anywhere in that list.
Have a nice night.  | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/17/2009 4:12:59 AM | | I can see points for Peacethx & kenpoboy. The school I train at teaches both TMA & MMA, so I have the great opportunity to train in both. Last night I was watching a show on how TMA use their techniques & I realize how important they still are. Also I look at fighters like when BJ Penn nailed one fighter with an elbow & the guy was cut open. One thing I love about MMA is their work ethic. All the strength & conditioning that they do. So with me training in MMA would also help me in TMA, hopefully I'll never have to use it for self-defense, I'm just going to enjoy the experience. | |
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Edsta
| | Joined: 7/19/2008
Msg: 36 | |
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/17/2009 7:52:59 AM |
A gun, a bat and a knife will. Streetfights are all about blunt and edged weapons. MMA vs. 2 dudes with knives....not sure about that outcome. Now, I wouldnt take exception to your comments, except for this misconception, MMA is better than traditional arts for self defense.
A blunt weapon is doable but taking on someone with a knife or gun, unless you are sure that they are totally incompetent, is stupid to begin with unless you are at an extremely high level of proficiency---much smarter just to give them your wallet and/or run if you can. Ditto with a multiple attacker situation, though I'd agree that standup skills are a lot more important than groundfighting there.
The weapons training that many traditional MA schools provide is a often a complete joke, instilling false confidence based on ridiculously impractical techniques (e.g. that crossblock against a downward overhand stab). The only weapons defenses I would trust are those from Krav Maga and maybe Escrima, or some sort of law enforcement or military instructor, and even then only as a last resort.
The three huge edges that a typical MMA student has over a typical TMA student is much better physical conditioning, more full-contact sparring experience, and generally much higher pain threshhold due to the second. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/17/2009 11:58:55 AM | I don't see that much disagreement on several points:
Physical condition plays a HUGE role in the outcome of a situation. I agree completely. Many of the Angels' positive outcomes have been due to being able to move quicker than, or outlast, our opponents. If you're not busting a sweat in training, you probably need to do something. In reality, you are NOT going to get killed in a fight, you're going to be killed by failing to take care of your body.
Being unarmed against an armed attacker is a bad situation. Avoid the SITUATION. Being armed in such situations has nearly identical outcomes. Avoid the SITUATION. This requires awareness, which requires training rarely offered in most commercial schools.
It is useful to know how to take a hit. You stop being afraid of it, and you learn how to take the hit while minimizing damage. But if you train regularly like that, the physical consequences will accumulate. At this moment, I have long-term (several months) pain in my left elbow, left thumb and right pinky. I have a 2+ year old knee injury and occasional bleeding from the right sinuses. Except for the knee injury, I don't even know when they happened. I know there's more consequences to come as I get even older. Keep this in mind.
I've been in the GA for almost 27 years. I choose, in addition to weekly GA training, to train in a traditional martial art. I've had a broken nose, 4 concussions, busted ribs 7 times, and lesser injuries too numerous to notice. I haven't noticed that "traditional" martial arts are particularly candyass (prolly the concussions ). There are no modern martial arts that aren't repackaged components from traditional systems, especially not GA training.
Before you think I am something special, remember the Angels operate in teams, are often the aggressors while making an arrest, and are far more experienced in these situations than gang bangers.
Perhaps it depends more on the individual, and, to a lesser extent, the instructor. | |
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Edsta
| | Joined: 7/19/2008
Msg: 40 | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/17/2009 7:44:49 PM | Damn! I was trying to start a battle royale! (Heh-heh! I managed to get candyass past the censors.)
I haven't seen many systems I'd criticize. I HAVE seen schools and instructors that sucked! My pet peeve is students getting all the way through the class without busting a sweat. I'm also not too thrilled about "streetfight" this and "streetfight" that by clueless wonders. I've never been in in a "streetfight", and I've got the scars to prove it. No lie! I've still got remains of a bite scar on my stomach from 24 years ago. ( I was holding this guy while three of his friends came back to get him. Most bangers just run.)
Do NOT let people bite you, their mouths are filthy!
What are other things that shouldn't happen in Martial Arts training? | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/19/2009 11:02:49 PM |
would you recommend any one martial art to any one person?
No, I wouldn't recommend only one martial art to any person, since people learn martial arts for different reasons. For example, I wouldn't recommend Kajukenbo to someone who just wants exercise but isn't really interested in self-defense.
Anyway, as for what I've studied: ITF and WTF/Olympic style Taekwondo (green belt in the first type of TKD, yellow belt in the second one), Shotokan karate ( 2nd kyu brown belt), and Northern Shaolin Kung-Fu . And my Taekwondo instructors also taught a little bit of Hapkido.
Now I'm planning on getting into the martial art I listed above -- Kajukenbo (I got into martial arts to learn self-defense, but the training I got in the other arts seemed mostly for tournaments. ). | |
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Edsta
| | Joined: 7/19/2008
Msg: 43 | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/20/2009 5:05:52 PM | Good find, Edsta. Some good info in these as well:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=15970579&an=0&page=0#Post15970579
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=15770259&an=0&page=0#Post15770259
www.bullshido.com is a very informative site, too. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/21/2009 5:08:24 PM | | I attended Bujinkan a while back. Absolutely loved it. Excellent form of exercise. But believe it or not, some of the moves that I have learned actually helped me in rugby such as the rolls, which if properly applied, can actually help you avoid a tackle! | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/22/2009 11:48:05 AM | Or being cut from the rear, or getting in below someone' s attack, or being thrown from a moving vehicle during a wipe out. Martial Arts are supposed to help with all aspects of life, not just sports or self-defense.
I use my training when handling small people - like a flying hug from a 5 year old off a couch in ambush. Or when I'm with a girlfriend . (Let her win! ) | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/22/2009 5:21:26 PM | Lux -
Not sure that I agree with you there. That martial arts *can* help you with other apsects of life is different than saying that they are *supposed* to. Martial arts are (ultimately) about aquiring physical skill for fighting. Spiritual growth, confidence, etc are all great secondary benefits, and ones that I have also gained from martial arts.
But we shouldn't put the cart before the horse here. The training is, at it's core, about fighting. Failure to recognize this has led to the growth of the McDojo, and the related watering-down of effective physical skills at many martial arts schools. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/23/2009 1:01:01 PM | You've put your finger on exactly where we disagree.
Yes, MARTIAL arts start from learning how to engage in war. But it's usually followed by the word "Way", or "Do", in Japanese or Korean (or "Tao" in Chinese). As in "karate-do" or "tae kwon do".
Fighting is essentially a science. The only "art" in war involves the psychology of your enemy and yourself. The rest is a mechanistic, and, hopefully, highly-practiced, set of techniques, or "jutsu" that are presented in many so-called "DOjo"s as Martial Arts.
When you read "Art of War" by Sun Tzu, Colditz, Machiavelli, etc, they never mention how to use a weapon.
None of this is opinion. Read any non-commercial book by any true master. You have to be careful about reading the books that were written just to serve as textbooks for teaching forms and techniques, as they are obviously incomplete.
The original forms were martial training drills brought to the Shaolin Temple from India by the Bhoddidarma (Daruna), and used as training and meditation aids to improve the physical and mental health of the Buddhist monks, not to make them warriors. Bhuddists are supposed to be pacifists, remember?
If it's a sports school, call it that. If it's a fighting techniques school, call it that, Neither is a dojo, dojang or kwoon. The purpose is not to practice Martial Arts, just martial techniques. The place where Guardian Angels train is not a Dojo, though strangely, the most important things taught there are not fighting techniques.
You go to a DOJO to learn how to live, not just how to fight.  | |
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Edsta
| | Joined: 7/19/2008
Msg: 49 | |
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/23/2009 1:10:23 PM | | ^^^ Interesting. I've never heard that about Bodhidharma...he's known as the man who brought Zen to China from India, but never heard of any martial arts connection. Are we talking about the same person? The Bodhidharma I'm referring to supposedly sat alone in a cave for something like 9 years before he became enlightened, and there is a story (metaphorical folklore I'm sure) that he cut off his eyelids so that he wouldn't fall asleep during seated meditation, such was his determination. He is also known for supposedly having a famous exchange with the Chinese Emperor Wu who boasted of all his massive philanthropy towards building Buddhist temples in his kingdom, and who asked him what merit that would gain him, at which Bodhidharma spat out, "None," turned his back on him and walked out. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/23/2009 4:40:35 PM | Same one! (?) I know there were quite a few of these guys that came from India, I've always wondered if the stories are from more than one of them. I've gotten this story from more than one classical source.
Another thing I've wondered is that if he knew the fighting forms, doesn't that mean he was from the warrior class? Why not? Buddha himself was a prince before he gained enlightenment.
I train in a traditional system to keep from getting fat like Buddha, and to keep all the stress under control. But really, any activity can serve at least the second purpose. I've seen a lot of people come in to a gym tense, and leave relaxed and happy. | |
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