|
|
|
|
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/23/2009 4:56:57 PM | Lux -
I won't argue martial arts history, as so much of it is obscured beyond the point of resolution anyway.
The original forms did come from fighting techniques, not the other way around, just to be clear. So their original intent was transformed into something else, FWIW (somewhat similar to the McDojo of today, per my original point).
I do agree that a dojo can teach you how to live. I also believe a 'sport' school can do the same. It is the process of facing your fears and swallowing your ego, and breaking/building the body, that creates true growth. Where many 'dojo' go wrong is by removing those very necessary trials. This leaves false confidence, questions and arrogance where *true* humility and confidence (from submitting and being submitted) should be. This does not come from empty platitudes and ceremony. It comes from work. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/23/2009 7:53:23 PM | This does not come from empty platitudes and ceremony.
True. I used to live near what seemed like a nice Kuk Sool Won school, but when I came in for a free intro session, their ritualized mouthing of tedious and long-winded platitudes about "respect, honor, integrity, tradition, etc." just gave me the willies. Felt like a f ucking Boy Scout camp. A lot of the national TKD and Karate schools tend to do this too. Ick! | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/23/2009 7:53:26 PM | True. To argue the other side of my point, a dojo should not present all the things they teach as being necessary for self-defense (forms, intricate kicks, meditation, etc).
I know that in the service, it was rare for any of the things we did to be considered as having the purpose of life improvement, except, of course PT. On the other hand, there is absolutely a zen aspect to shooting. The endless repitition and drills help you to keep your head in combat, mainly because you're busy doing something where you focus on the task instead of panicking like a sane human being would.
I know that Samurai used martial arts to improve their minds and hearts. And I suspect that the Hindu warrior class did also. In both cases, they did not limit the amount of time they spent training to 3 or 4 hours a week. A "modern" school must do more in less time. So focusing on a few things make sense.
When you say McDojo, I visualize a school operated by someone with insufficient experience to teach. This is more common in the non-traditional schools. But then there IS a lot less to teach. So, since the curriculum is more focused - self-defense or sports - my impression may be irrelevant. I know that when I took over Guardian Angel training in Houston, I threw out a lot of stuff and focused on physical conditioning and simple, task-related , drills. So I am essentially a hypocrite. 
The average Angel stays in about 2 years and moves on with his or her life. I joined in 1982, and I'm sort of surprised I'm still active. Many of us "dinosaurs" are active in traditional martial arts. The newbies patronize us until they see us in action. Then they realize that if they learn from us, they could then do it better than us.  | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/23/2009 8:12:36 PM | Ed, you posted 3 seconds before me. Now I'M creeped out!
I don't know anyone who likes those Kuk Sool Kwan schools. I hope they don't turn off too many people to the Martial Arts.
But I do know the ceremony and platitudes are over-emphacized by too many schools that are supposed to be teaching traditional martial arts. They are mainly for teenagers who come into a school after watching too many chop-socky movies. (Which I love.)
OTOH, I AM glad I learned to do a proper bow. So now I have an alternative to all the unsanitary hand-grabbing we barbarians usually do. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/23/2009 9:05:23 PM | Yeah, coincidences like that ARE kinda creepy, agreed!
The bowing is something I actually like, both in traditional martial arts and in Zen (otherwise I'm not fond of most traditional Zen rituals). It's simple and efficient, and HOW one does it often speaks far more eloquently than words.
About the samurai and their warrior code, I once trained with an ex-military guy who liked to say that the samurai were easy pickins for the ninjas due to the latter's total ruthlessness and lethal efficiency, and were soon decimated by them. Don't know much about Japanese history, so don't know if he was just pulling that one out of his @ss...lol | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/23/2009 9:52:07 PM | You'd have to read some Japanese history. The Samurai were ruthless, too. I don't know about efficiency. It seems that most assassination missions failed. The ninjas were wiped out. The samurai were ordered disarmed by their Emperor.
I think that your instructor has a point. Someone that trained to strike unnoticed all the time is going to have a distinct advantage over someone who has to run an estate or a military unit. Historically, standard military units slaughtered ninjas in a stand up fight. But that just means that whoever was using the ninjas was using a rapier as a sledgehammer.
This is true nowadays, Spec ops troops have to strike suddenly, then get out fast. Mogadishu ("Black Hawk Down") was a sucessful mission, except for the get out fast part. Even then, then kill ratio was 19 to 500-1000. Thank God for the 160th Aviation Regiment! | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/23/2009 11:09:51 PM | I am guessing that you have never grappled with so much as a BJJ white-belt, who would probably put you on your a$$ immediately.
Kenpo
I have trained in several systems to deal with groundfighters. Training since you were 15 means nothing. You were a child when you started. I dont take any of that seriously.
The way you swagger when you talk convinces me further that you are either outright making up your background, or were trained poorly.
At your young age of 40, you have a long way to go. I hope pride doesnt get in the way of intellect. I stand by my comments.
Whenever I hear this nonsense about how MMA is the supreme fighting style, I laugh. You act as if Ken Shamrock invented fighting. You have little reference to history. Most of the stuff you see in MMA has been done for centuries. For gods sake, Pancrase was a Greek art, thats 2000 years ago.
The Japanese never had head butts. Right. Ground and pound was invented by the UFC. Right. Takedowns were invented by the Gracie Family. Right. Before UFC there was only kata. Right.
Delusional...srsly. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/24/2009 1:13:05 PM |
I have trained in several systems to deal with groundfighters.
Such as.........? Have you tried out these systems against any ground-fighters?
Training since you were 15 means nothing. You were a child when you started. I dont take any of that seriously.
I'm sure you don't.......typing over the internet. ;)
The way you swagger when you talk convinces me further that you are either outright making up your background, or were trained poorly.
Pot calling kettle. You are the one that is misinformed and making ASS-umptions here.
At your young age of 40, you have a long way to go. I hope pride doesnt get in the way of intellect. I stand by my comments.
I bet I have already gone further than you have, but thanks anyway. MY pride, LOL. 
Whenever I hear this nonsense about how MMA is the supreme fighting style, I laugh. You act as if Ken Shamrock invented fighting. You have little reference to history. Most of the stuff you see in MMA has been done for centuries. For gods sake, Pancrase was a Greek art, thats 2000 years ago.
I don't recall saying MMA was supreme. I have said nothing about Ken Shamrock, who is far from the top echelons of MMA fighters today (I am a Miguel Torres fan). I do not dispute that many MMA techniques have been around since antiquity - you are assuming that I think that, incorrectly. There are things like the rubber guard, and some of Eddie Bravo's other stuff, that I have not seen codified before.
The Japanese never had head butts. Right. Ground and pound was invented by the UFC. Right. Takedowns were invented by the Gracie Family. Right. Before UFC there was only kata. Right.
Delusional...srsly.
No idea where you get that gabble from. Anyone that knows anything about Gracie jujitsu knows it was descended from Japanese judo, changing emphasis from throws to submission ground-work. There is little evidence to show that many trad styles did sparring as part of their syllabus, however.
And what the UFC showed was not that other styles lacked sparring, per se. Rather, that they lacked sparring in all ranges, which was the critical difference. Something not seen regularly in most martial arts training until the UFC. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/24/2009 1:32:12 PM | ^^^
@ kenpoboy & peacethx
hilarious to see the two of you arguing back and forth like 2nd-graders on the playground or two three- year old girls in sandbox...
I had always (foolishly??) thought part of most martial arts training was peace, being centered and respect for others..
I can see that theory is blown to hell.. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/24/2009 3:56:26 PM | I took lessons for free style kungfu (a mix of self defense, jujitsu, and kungfu) last year. I loved it. I felt so fit. The only thing i didn't like was that my family kept telling me that my shoulders looked bulky and broadened  ... Anyway, it gave me a huge confidence boost. I walked around like i was the shit. No i'm just kidding. I definitely felt so much more confident. I think i'm gonna go back to that when i have time in the future... | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/24/2009 4:56:07 PM | GOR -
I had always (foolishly??) thought part of most martial arts training was peace, being centered and respect for others.
It is. But that respect comes from having the actual skill and experience to know where *true* humility and *true* confidence come from. They don't come from faux penis-length comparisons of time spent training or how many belts one has. My respect for others comes from the very real knowledge that I have had my a$$ whipped often enough in class not to under-estimate anyone. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/24/2009 8:17:13 PM | And what the UFC showed was not that other styles lacked sparring, per se. Rather, that they lacked sparring in all ranges, which was the critical difference. Something not seen regularly in most martial arts training until the UFC.
This is absolutely true. The Achilles Heel of too many traditional martial arts schools is that you end up mostly learning how to fight against others using the same style, unfortunately---or defending against outrageously stupid moves that only a complete @ss-clown would try in real life, like a stepping reverse punch used as an opener.
For all its faults, the UFC does deserve HUGE credit for forcing standup fighters to pick up ground skills, and groundfighters to pick up standup skills.
I'm still waiting to see if Cung Le ever gets to fight someone like Anderson Silva...that would be very interesting, a super stand-up fighter against a super grappler. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/26/2009 5:43:10 PM | *sigh*
I teach martial arts.
I also get sick to my stomach listing to UFC/BJJ fan boys ......
UFC is a sport BJJ is a sport and has as much to do with REAL fighting as a hot dog has to do with a warm puppy.
they sound sort of alike, but in reality? nothing in common.
you DONT want to go to the ground, it is hard and it hurts, no one needs any more ground training to to be able to NOT freek out if they do end up there. stick something into thier eye socket, they let go, and you get back to your feet.
and BJJ is worthless vs multiple attackers, and you ALWAYS assume they have a friend behind you on the street. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 9:07:03 AM | ^ agree with the multiple attacker scenario. However, I've seen many bar fights go to the ground---typically they get into close quarters, a missed punch turns into a clinch and grab and they topple over, in which case the heavier stronger guy usually wins unless the lighter guy knows how to grapple, then the size difference can be negated. Once saw a 130lb wrestler demolish a football player who must've had a good 80lbs on him, in less than 10 seconds---it was jaw-dropping.
Stand-up requires a decent amount of room to move around and maintain distance, which you don't always have in many public places. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 9:15:58 AM | ^^
However, I've seen many bar fights go to the ground---typically they get into close quarters, a missed punch turns into a clinch and grab and they topple over, in which case the heavier stronger guy usually wins unless the lighter guy knows how to grapple, then the size difference can be negated. Once saw a 130lb wrestler demolish a football player who had a good 60lbs on him, in less than 10 seconds---it was jaw-dropping.
and how many of those fights really 'had to' happen?
what precipitated them?
some stupid, drunken, pride BS in most cases?
could have been avoided if one person was 'man enough' to walk away, or not try to impress some women, or fell 'insulted' by a glance, etc. ?
I mean really..I still feel way too many 'marital artists' sort of WANT to get into fights to prove their prowess, what a stud they are?
do you realize that your life could be OVER (I'm talking dead, game over) through some stupid fight? (get knocked down, hit back of you head on a hard corner, etc.) I've heard of it happening.. or attacker gets a hold of any kind of improvised weapon..stick, brick, rock, ballpoint pen, etc. or happens to have a weapon on his person (gun, knife, etc.)
is 'pride' worth your life, really/ esp. the sense of pride of being seen to stand up to some stupid drunken loser, in most cases?
in the town I used to live in, a guy was drunk and obnoxious to n extent to a woman, so some guy decided to play the hero and invite him outside, his techniques worked, he dropped the guy to the ground..the guy was an off-duty cop with a loaded .357 magnum pistol in his waistband..he shot the hero 4 times in the torso, from the ground
result, one dead person, one cop in prison, one girl "impressed" I guess? | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 9:33:24 AM | I agree that de-escalation and avoidance are the best strategies, but there are times when you're simply in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people...otherwise known as BAD LUCK.
My college roommate once walked into a bar, started talking to a cute girl who seemed to be alone, then her boyfriend came out, pretended it was cool initially, then tried to sucker-punch him. Luckily he saw it coming and got out of the way, but had to break the guy's arm to end it and get out.
PS. "Going outside" to have a staged fight is always a bad idea. You don't let on that you intend to defend yourself, until you actually do it---no Queensbury rules. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 9:51:42 AM | I did Kendo (Japanese fencing) for many years and got pretty good at it. The practicality is pretty much out the window, but it did a lot to teach me about self control, discipline, and kept me in great physical condition.
Fighting in "real life" just isn't worth it. Kicks and punches don't stop bullets. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 9:56:55 AM | @ Edsta:
sorry, might have just e-mailed you but you're restricted to females as you know.
yes you are right..I still notice that many people, despite the mantra in marital arts training to 'avoid/de-escalate' seem to get offended quite easily, or think/say "I couldn't avoid it"
maybe it's even subconscious, more than conscious..
"I'm a bad-ass marital artist, I don't have to have any fear".
I don't know, I just think I notice it, and I'm pretty sure I'm not imagining it.
I appreciate what you say, there may be situations one cannot avoid..however I really think they are fewer and further between in reality than many would have you believe.
I see a lot of guys walking around in bars..(Did I say 'walking' ? I should revise that to 'swaggering'..with jackets/shirts/pullovers etc. proclaiming their proficiency in some kind of martial arts (karate,tae-kwon-do, etc.).
maybe I'm a little silly but that almost seems to be like waving a red flag at a bull..to tempt some drunk wanna-be tough guy to want to challenge you.
and I have seen guys who are black belts in TKD, who probably thought they were 'invincible' , get their ass handed to them (knocked out) by a drunk hockey player or whatever..because I guess they were expecting some TKD technique, and were all ready to 'counter' that, because that's what they could do in the dojang, not expecting the roundhouse punch out of 'nowhere' ?
but anyway, Edsta, you sound like a quite reasonable person; I'm not trying to paint you with that brush..you must be aware there are people like that , though. ? | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 10:44:46 AM | GOR
most martial artist I know, and I have been doing this for 25 YEARS, will bend over backwards to avoid a fight.
lots of reasons.
We get hit, a lot, reguarly. We know how much it hurts and generally? try to avoid it.
Also, as a martial artist, you are twice as responsible, legally, should someone get hurt. I had a good friend go to prison because of this. He got jumped, by 4 people. Killed one of them, put 3 in the hospital.
4 vs him
you would think self defense, right?
nope
the judge told him "you should have been able to incapacitate them without deadly force."
which is BS
4 vs 1 you can bet I will be using deadly force. Plus, martial arts training tends to beat the ego out of you. Your experience may be different, but thats mine.
as to multiple vs ground, I worked bars for 10 years.
went to the ground twice.
had to deal with multiples more than I can remember. So my experience is, worry about that more than grappling. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 11:19:27 AM | To be honest, I haven't been a barfly since my 20s so I wouldn't know...too much of an old coot these days, lol. And even back then I generally avoided the kinds of bars that are known to have lots of fights, and if I ever walked into a strange bar for the first time, would be super alert and cautious.
You're right that there IS a certain type of swaggerer who gets into martial arts for the wrong reasons and gives it a bad name. Especially true of McDojos in far flung suburbian/rural areas. Sorry to say but TKD seems to be a magnet for both McDojos and macho idiots, and that might well be due in part to how unrealistic their training often is. Boxers, kickboxers, and MMA guys I've known were much more low-key...but then that could just be me, I steer clear of the obnoxious types.
Anybody who'd walk around with a t-shirt or jacket proclaiming that they are martial artists is a jack@ss who deserves any beating that comes his way.
In "The Art of War" there is a very nifty little instruction: "If you are strong, pretend to be weak; if you are weak, pretend to be strong." One Shotokan teacher I had looked like the sweetest, most harmless-looking teddy bear if you ever saw him in the street. Then he'd spar you and his whole face would change in a twinkle and you'd be like, "oh sh*t!" LOL | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 11:38:21 AM | very true edsta
most TKD schools are rightly tought ill of, the training isnt reality based.
Mine is.
I used TKD for building strength, but I use Kenpo for the self defense.
Oddly though, my experience has been the opposite, the MMA guys here are the loudmouths. The classicly trained guys are pretty humble.
I was a bouncer, i worked there, so I had to deal with the bar scene idiots.
oh, there is one exception to the t-shirt or jacket thing, if someone is a school owner, they might do it for the business, but otherwise? i tell my students to never let go of the element of surprise. | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 12:49:26 PM | Kenpo is interesting stuff...lethal, though a little complicated-looking, at least some of the moves a buddy of mine showed me. He claimed that at the kenpo school he went to, when you receive a black belt you have to get in a horse stance and the other BBs would line up and each one would kick you as hard as they could (front kick using the instep) in the nuts, one after another. If this is true, I have to imagine they must have developed a pretty high pain threshhold!
TKD training can be a lot of fun, my Shotokan teacher used those clapper pads and had us do hundreds of kicks at a time. He'd preface it with, "ok guys, you're really gonna hate me today." LOL | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 1:04:04 PM | Edsa,
if kenpo is taught right, there is a LOT of contact.
It does seem complicated, till you get into it, then it starts making sense.
we didnt get the groin kicks, in my school, when I got BB, I got the get in a horsestance and they all took turns punching me in the sternum... | |
|
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolion boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 4:46:43 PM | samurai -
UFC is a sport BJJ is a sport and has as much to do with REAL fighting as a hot dog has to do with a warm puppy.
they sound sort of alike, but in reality? nothing in common.
That is not true. Physics and mechanics do not change, nor do people grow more arms and legs on the 'street'. A fight is a fight when it's on. Only the tactics are different.
you DONT want to go to the ground, it is hard and it hurts, no one needs any more ground training to to be able to NOT freek out if they do end up there. stick something into thier eye socket, they let go, and you get back to your feet.
This is simply garbage. There are videos of Rorion Gracie doing challenge matches where the opponent tried to eye-gouge, and Rorion still beat the guy. It is not always that easy to get in someone's eyes, either. And the point of learning ground-fighting isn;t that you WANT to go there. Perhaps the other guy wants you there, and if he knows takedowns, that IS where you're going.
GOR -
Trained martial artists very rarely pick fights, since they know what violence is all about. The people you see in the T-shirts and jackets are either beginners or people that do not train with athletic resistance in the program. Both kinds have too much ego from not knowing what they can do, and more importantly, what others can do to them. Spar enough, in all ranges and with some contact, and your ego will be in the proper place.
And Samurai is correct, kenpo students get punched in the stomach at every belt test, except black belt, when they get kicked. There are schools that kick each other in the throat and balls full-force (combat-ki), but those guys are wacko, and that sh1t is useless on the street anyway, since they have to prepare themselves to recieve those strikes. | |
|
| |
|
| Page 3 of 5
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 |
|
Home
login 
