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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 8:32:52 PM | Samurai -
What is your problem? You and peacethx seem to have some irrational hatred towards BJJ/MMA. Why don't you try taking a class or two and find out what it's all about. You appear to be arguing from an ego-based point of ignorance about the style. I didn't come in here and start bashing styles first. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/27/2009 10:17:45 PM | At the risk of stating the obvious: There is no universal style. In sparring at my traditional school, I don't even spar two consecutive opponents the same way. A small Wing Chun guy could follow a long-legged, athletic, kicking machine. What would work against one would fail against another. Sort of scissors, paper, rock.
On the other hand...
(lips not moving in synch with the words) "Your Master is no good! My Kung Fu is MUCH stronger than yours. Hahahahaha!" | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/28/2009 7:24:43 AM | dude, i just said, dont be a fan wank.
BJJ is a great sport but that is all it is.
Here are the rules for effective Self Defense in my school
1-avoid what you can avoid
2-when you cant avoid, take action with no hesitation
3-stay on your feet when you can, if you cant, do ANYTHING to get them to let go, and get back on your feet
4-dont stop till they drop
5-ALWAYS assume they have a friend behind you
now, those rules are broad and loose for a reason, real life has no rules, and adaptation is essential.
anything that violates these rules is outside the realm of "effective self defense"
now, i dont teach many joint locks. Why? Because i dont feel you can rely on them. joint locks work because of pain compliance. However, different people can handle different levels of pain. Therefore, relying on pain compliance is dangerous.
I dont rely on chokes either. Why? they take both hands, they take too long, and while I am trying to choke them they are free to beat me about the head and shoulders.
I dont go to the ground. Why? Multiple bad guys. Concrete equals road rash, broken bones and head stomps.
joint locks bad
chokes bad
ground bad
ok, now what are the main elements of BJJ? thats right: joint locks, chokes, and ground work.
so, the vast majority of the BJJ techniques fall outside the realm of what I consider effective self defense.
same with judo
Now that being said, elements from grappling styles can be used effectivly.
Wanna slam someone to the ground? judo throws work really well for that. Just modify them so you dont go down too
Find yourself on ground? BJJ can help you escape to get back up.
So can jamming your finger in thier eye socket.
I havnt tried cocain, but do i have to to know it isnt for me? no not really. I just have to do the research to know it isnt a good idea.
Do yourself a favor Kenpokid, dont be a fan wank for the gracies. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/28/2009 7:57:14 AM | ^ I'd agree that joint-locks are a little risky, esp. if somebody's on drugs and/or has dead pain receptors. There was an episode of COPS I saw once where this jujitsu black belt cop kept trying to put a lock on some dude who was on PCP or something like that, and nothing worked. But that's an exceptional situation.
For the average @sshole in a bar, they're a good way to stop a fight without getting into legal trouble, as compared to breaking bones or more lethal means...I've seen bouncers use them very effectively. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/28/2009 7:59:30 AM | Lux -
I am not sure that I agree that there isn't a universal style. The human body can only strike/be struck and grapple/be grappled so many ways. "Styles" are really vagaries of whatever rules (or lack thereof) are engaged at the time. IMHO. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/28/2009 8:27:31 AM | Samurai -
As I suspected.........and comparing cocaine to BJJ? Maybe the most ridiculous analogy I have EVER heard regarding a martial art. I feel soiled for continuing this, but I am compelled to try to address some of your points anyway.
Your self defense rules are actually pretty much the same in any style. Remember that BJJ does not necessarily have the goal of going to the ground. The goal is to be able to defeat the opponent on the ground, or keep it from going there in the first place. Think of BJJ as the last/worst resort - you WANT to know what to do in that situation, right? It requires training just like stand-up stuff.
now, i dont teach many joint locks.
I do find that smll joint locks (ie; fingers,wrist) are difficult to lock in unless the oponent is completely pinned anyway. However, the large joints (elbow, shoulder) are fairly easy to isolate, and the mechanical damage to the body is much greater. If I break one of your fingers, you still have 9 others. If I break one of your elbows.........
I dont rely on chokes either
This tell me that you do not know how to properly choke someone. A properly locked on guillotine, triangle or RNC will have the opponent out in 10 seconds - maybe less. Proper RNC position will leave the opponent almost nothing to hit or grab at anyway.
I dont go to the ground.
Unless I put you there, right? ;)
so, the vast majority of the BJJ techniques fall outside the realm of what I consider effective self defense.
same with judo
Judo, along with greco-roman wrestling and muay thai, has some of the best clinch work extant in martial arts. So what, sez you? Clinch range is the range that dictates where the fight is going to go. I can stop you from taking me down ( a la Chuck Liddel), or I can use that range to take you down (a la Matt Hughes). Lack of skill in that range means the opponent dictates what happens there. Lack of skill in that range for both opponents results in many fights ending up on the ground, because many people's natural reaction to being hit is to grab the hitter, and there goes the balance.
Do yourself a favor Kenpokid, dont be a fan wank for the gracies.
Ah yes. The respect and honor, etc, that you get from traditional martial arts. Something for us all to look up to! BTW, you are only 3 years older than me.
So, AGAIN, why don't you put your ill-informed preconceptions down and learn something about that which you attempt to speak of. You will do yourself and your students a favor.
Have a nice day. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/28/2009 8:58:00 AM | samurai seems like a very angry man, for whatever reason.
the bullying/intimidation method doesn't seem to work as well on the internet as it probably often does as he is using it in real life
my Remington 12-gauge Deerslayer trumps all styles at ranges from 6 -30 feet | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/28/2009 12:10:47 PM | I like shotgun for medium range myself. But when I need it, I don't have it.
Joint manipulation IS problematic, We teach it in the Angels, but it rarely ends a situation. In addition to pain response, many techniques also provide a mechanical advantage.
There can't be a universal style. You can't be ready for everything. Limited time = limited skills. Train AGAINST as many styles as you can. A lot of guys train at our school just for the sparring. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/28/2009 12:18:01 PM | Kenpokid,
1-everything i said is factual. I know that certain chokes can put someone out in seconds, but street fighters dont know those techniques. You train for the most likely scenario, and a trained grappler is not the most likely threat.
2- try to put me down, I will still get back up. you see, the SPORT has rules, the street doesnt. A person on the street can do things that martial sport types cant do.
3-stop being a fan wank. Sure, it is an awesome SPORT, it is nearly useless for self defense. Just admit it and move on.
GOR,
you are not smart enough to read my mind son. I am out of your league.
There was absolutely no "anger" in my response to Kenpokiddo
I was detailed, analytical, and precise. No bullying, no sarcasm, no attitude.
you should try it sometime. When you grow up.
See, THAT was sarcastic attitude. i didnt use it with Kenpokid as he didnt merit it. Tho, in fairness, you are right, a nice 12 gauge is a great self defense tool, prob the best home defense gun there is. The only problem is, you dont always have it with you. I always have my hands and feet. And self defense rarely happens from 30 feet. More like 3 feet.
Now stop making stuff up about the adults and go back to trying to impress the kids with your garage band. k?
In all seriousness God of garage bands, I am so glad I found you, the forums were not near as funny for me before i started reading your posts. Thanks | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/28/2009 5:23:19 PM | Lux -
There can't be a universal style. You can't be ready for everything. Limited time = limited skills. Train AGAINST as many styles as you can. A lot of guys train at our school just for the sparring.
To me, this is the beauty of MMA sparring. It does give you every type of unarmed practice fighting, all at the same time. I am not trying to say that MMA sparring is like a street fight - nothing is. But MMA is about as close as you can get. Every other type of training has just as many (if not more) rules.
Samurai -
Kenpokid,
1-everything i said is factual. I know that certain chokes can put someone out in seconds, but street fighters dont know those techniques. You train for the most likely scenario, and a trained grappler is not the most likely threat.
Well, if streetfighters don't know them, that would make them even easier to do, right? Why pick a technique that you *know* someones knows how to defend, if your intent is to end the confrontation quickly? And as for trained grapplers not being a likely threat, you are correct - sort of. Most trained fighters are not blustering internet windbags, and have the control necessary not to engage in pointless fights. However, I should point out that wrestling is a HUGELY popular sport in America. And so is Football. And Hockey. And those folks know a thing or two about knocking people down to the ground. But what do I know? You are 3 years older than me! And training for as much as a year longer than me! 
2- try to put me down, I will still get back up. you see, the SPORT has rules, the street doesnt. A person on the street can do things that martial sport types cant do.
Except chokes, apparently. I assume you know how to defend the RNC? Oh - and what's to stop me from gouging YOUR eyes? I may have even trained the same style you do. ;)
3-stop being a fan wank. Sure, it is an awesome SPORT, it is nearly useless for self defense. Just admit it and move on.
Maybe you're right. I guess I just don't understand your " detailed, analytical, and precise" answers with "No bullying, no sarcasm, no attitude." 
GOR -
Yeah, firearms FTW. No argument there. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/28/2009 7:58:17 PM | lord, fan boys are exhausting.....
I am quite sure you dont understand, common sense and reality often confuse gracie fan boys....
BTW it isnt about how LONG one has trained, it is about how SMART they have trained.
putting all your eggs in the grappling basket? sorry, but you are a moron. while you are man humping someone, please enjoy his buddy kicking a hole in the side of your head......
enjoy your sport. I will practice my self defense oriented MARTIAL art.
sport does not equal reality | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 2/28/2009 8:10:04 PM |
Because i dont feel you can rely on them. joint locks work because of pain compliance. However, different people can handle different levels of pain. Therefore, relying on pain compliance is dangerous.
Sure, people can build up a tolerance for pain, but eventually hyper extending the joint too much is going to break it.
We had a marine one time training in class. Our grandmaster was applying a joint lock and told him to tap out when it got too much. Well, either his ego or pain tolerance was high and ended up getting broken.
Joint manipulation IS problematic, We teach it in the Angels, but it rarely ends a situation
Joint locks don't seem to work that well because people often use it as there first technique. I would rather use it after a strike or distraction when the opponent is stunned. Some styles of aikido teach distraction techniques before joint locks or throws.
To work properly it needs a lot of training to work IMO more then most other types of training. Sometimes knowing how the joint works, going from one joint lock to another.
If the lock is not working or they are getting out of it, don't just don't try to keep on reapplying it. Quickly change to something else. Many locks are great for setting up throws or takedowns. So if it does not work, go for a throw.
They are great if you don't want if you want to control an opponent without too much injury. Thats why many law enforcement agencys use them.
Joint locks are one of the many tricks in a martial artists bag. If you use them too much without relying on other aspects of self defence ( Kicks, strikes, punches, ect. ) it won't work too well. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 3/1/2009 5:07:42 AM | Samurai -
BTW it isnt about how LONG one has trained, it is about how SMART they have trained.
Surprisingly, I agree with you there. However, training in all ranges is smart.
putting all your eggs in the grappling basket? sorry, but you are a moron. while you are man humping someone, please enjoy his buddy kicking a hole in the side of your head.....
*sigh*
If you so much as look at my screen-name, you will see that I have not been putting all my "eggs in the grappling basket", nor do I recommend that. I recommend training for *all* ranges - stand-up, clinch and ground. Apparently, you are putting all YOUR eggs in the striking basket. How is that any better? A semi-decent grappler is going to put you on the ground.
enjoy your sport. I will practice my self defense oriented MARTIAL art.
sport does not equal reality
And your training does? Let me ask you a question. In your classes, do you guys * actually* gouge each others eyes? Kick each other full force in the sack? Hit each other full-force in the throat? If not, then you must be simulating. Simulation = not reality, bro. You're doing a sport just like I am , with just as many rules - just different ones.
Seriously, open your mind and try a class. Consider it a challenge. Surely you are man enough, tough enough, etc. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 3/1/2009 12:59:24 PM | Cooldude, you got it. I'm known for all the techniques I throw on the guys in training. They get better at escaping them; I get better at applying them. I usually use them as a momentary distraction before doing something else: entering, or getting the hell away!
On the street, many of our situations are not truly self-defense. We are the aggressors, as we are often trying to end a problem or make an arrest. So we must limit the force we apply.
Additionally, consider who many of our "customer's" are: people who do violent, destructive things in plain view. This means they are habitual criminals, drunks, drug users (pcp and speedball are very bad), big thugs, crazy people, enraged people, etc. In short, many people who are not going to be easily affected by pain. Remember, we can't just destroy them. Dammit.
On the other hand, when gangbangers are trying us, joint manipulation is GREAT! Put one of them on his knees, even in a "friendly" way, and the rest give respect. Saves us a lot of trouble later. The best part is it's just so casual and elegant.
90% of Angel work is mind games.  | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 92 | |
| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 3/1/2009 3:12:46 PM | It's gets a little tough to constantly find sparring partners when the realism is turned on Full.
Consistently killing and maiming sparring partners in the 21st century USA society is frowned upon.
Kyujutsu became Kyudo, iai-jutsu became iaido, aiki-jutsu became aikido, and jujutsu became Judo.
**__There was a shift from warfare techniques to everyday life principles,
with the spiritual side of the arts being more emphasized.
Schools now passed their tradition to students in the form of techniques, philosophy and codes of ethics.
Students were expected to be fully versed on hand-to-hand combat, but also to embody the philosophy of the founders.
With 6 Billion people on the planet - some always want to kill, others want to preserve life.
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 3/3/2009 2:21:47 AM | heres my opionion...
it boils down to what your goals are...ok, you wanna be a weirdo and bite someones face or break fingers or fight with weapons, then be a weirdo....btw, it takes no skill to bag a guy or pull hair or eye gauge...
im a BJJ purple belt, and dont kid your self,guys, Bjj has a nice way and a mean way...in the past ive been forced to use my skill to defend my self against some clueless jerk and suddenly he realized hes being choked and put to sleep 8 seconds later...if a weapon was envolved ? id run.
heres a fact: MMA is safer than boxing. in an MMA fight most guys lose after take 1-4 hard shots to the head beacause of the 4oz gloves.....in boxing, beacause of the larger gloves a fight can take over 500 punches to the head ....and still win. i gotta say,boxing is a beautiful art by the way....which is why thai fighters retire so early, to save their heads. obviously theyre onto something, muay thai is as if not more violent than boxing.muay thai is beautiful also.....
FACT: martial arts have evolved more in the last 15 years than they have in the last 1000....why? because of gracie jiu-jitsu...and now MMA.....BJJ is not flawless, but EVERY SINGLE pro fighter knows at least a little bit of it. you need it to survive in the event the fight goes to the ground 9/10 times ( wrestling aint bad either)....
check out " gracie in action vol 1-2"......and you tube "tma vs mma"....."kung fu master vs mma".....theres been a martial arts revolution happening for the last 10-15 years..... | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 3/3/2009 2:02:14 PM |
FACT: martial arts have evolved more in the last 15 years than they have in the last 1000
I think it is more a change in philosophy & cultural differences then a change of technique.
I have modified many techniques to fit a unique situation only to find out it has been done many times before & in different styles. But I still teach those things as they were originally taught to me unmodified.
I was taught by a very traditional instructor from Korea. It was frown upon to change the curriculum from the way it was taught for fear it would change the style to something different.
I have seen my grandmaster dismiss instructors for continuously adding things from other styles.
So as far as evolving, I don't think its teaching anything new that has been done before, but how its being taught. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 3/3/2009 3:23:24 PM |
So as far as evolving, I don't think its teaching anything new that has been done before, but how its being taught.
I agree with this for the most part. There are some exceptions (like the aformentioned rubber guard), but I concur that it is mostly a change in philosophy ie; putting techniques to the test of athletic resistance. But the great thing is that this need not be a hallmark strictly of BJJ or MMA - any style can use it, within reason. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 3/3/2009 3:43:35 PM | | I think the most evolved perhaps is Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. I'm more aware of the philosophy aspect then the application. But his belief was to use what works ( for you ) & get rid of what does not. So that particular style is constantly changing & is different for everybody. I'm sure there are a few of the basics that are the same till the practitioner gets use to that style. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 3/3/2009 6:36:29 PM | | ^ yes, I was just going to mention JKD. If Lee were still alive today, I bet that he would have also integrated aspects of BJJ into his style. I have always applied his "take what is useful, leave what is not" philosophy to meditation practice and Eastern philosophy---it really keeps things immediate and grounded. | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 3/3/2009 7:05:04 PM | Opinions wanted:
How does a inexperienced student know, ahead of time, what is useful? Sounds like a future "McDojo" instructor.
Unrelated question: Useful to what task? (I am an ex Industrial Engineer, or maybe not so ex. )
What do you find useful in meditation and Eastern philosophy? Weren't these the first things dumped in the "new" styles? (They were the first things dumped in Angel training. And I can't say how destructive the stress was in those days.) | |
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| Tai Chi, kenpo, shaolin boxing and other martial arts
Posted: 3/3/2009 8:25:58 PM |
How does a inexperienced student know, ahead of time, what is useful? Sounds like a future "McDojo" instructor.
Unrelated question: Useful to what task? (I am an ex Industrial Engineer, or maybe not so ex. )
What do you find useful in meditation and Eastern philosophy?
Good questions, Lux.
What is useful: of course it's dependent on what the individual student's goals are, and he has to be clear about that, going in. Many students (both of the martial arts and of meditation) are NOT clear on that at all, and are simply fishing about for some prepackaged tradition or surrogate parent-figure in a teacher who'll tell them what to think/do.
Speaking for myself, my interest in martial arts has been largely about practical self-defense, though I'll freely admit that just sheer enjoyment is also a big part of the appeal. As I get older there are also certain aspects of certain martial arts that become more prominent, such as energy flow/sensitivity.
As for meditation and Eastern philosophy, I find it to be personally useful as a path towards liberation---mainly, liberation from the narrow confines of the personal ego, a dropping of the veils. However just as in many of the traditional martial arts, one often has to cope with a vast amount of institutional baggage and inertia which is often not so useful because it is simply replacing one box with another box. | |
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