| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 8:05:02 AM | | Tealwood....people do what they do for a variety of reasons. Of course there are men who have realized the unsurmountable odds and have thrown in the towel. You seem to assume though that all women who talk about the man walking away are women who have refused access to the father. Is this what you are in fact implying? | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 8:41:54 AM | itsallinthesoul:
Absolutely not> In fact...much to my shame I would suggest it would probably be the minority. But even if it is not insurmountable odds, simply there are men who give up...or get tired of the continued obstacle and deteriorating relationship with their children that may be an inability to deal with the snide comments that the child or children have been exposed to and then mimic or repeat. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 8:54:18 AM | I think that this case raises a bigger issue. Why does the Father not get equal consideration in a court case as the Mother? This is a gross example of discrimination where Fathers only get considered for custody if the Mother is proved beyond any doubt to be completely unstable. Court Battles are so expensive in family court, where the money could be better spent on the kids.
And to Tealwood, who said the Vascular Surgeon wasn't paying support? I don't recall seeing at in the OP's original statement?
Taking a Mother to court is a tough decision when you know it will cost over $20K and you are not really going to be considered for anything, unless there is unsurmountable proof the Mother is a total screw up. Even then, as this case show you only have a 50% chance of being considered. The whole system stinks, quite frankly. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:02:17 AM |
You seem to assume though that all women who talk about the man walking away are women who have refused access to the father. Is this what you are in fact implying?
I think what he's getting at more-so is that a child's well-being should not require copious amounts of money to be forfeited by parents before judges will acknowledge that these kinds of environments are toxic for them. He didn't neutralize the genders because most women don't have to fight for custody of their children, but obviously in all fairness there are a lot of bitter men who also poison their children with this sort of "hate your other parent" non-sense. They all need a daily dose of b*tch slaps until they get some sense knocked into them. You don't talk about your "ex" with your child, you talk about their mother or father. It may not always seem easy, but it is if you put yourself in your kid's shoes for just one second. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:07:56 AM | This is sooo true! I've seen this happen, and you're not only talking $20K plus, you are talking about a long period of time when both parties and the child(ren) are put under enormous tension as well. How long does it take for each to be notified, discovery, hearings scheduled, etc., before the whole thing is resolved.
There is a lot of bias against fathers. It is not right, but I've seen it with some of my friends' situations. The Mom generally has to be a complete wack job in order for the Dad to be given any kind of equal consideration. If the Mom is a master manipulator plus total wack job, the man has little chance. Personally, I feel whoever the kids will benefit most from, as far as influence is concerned, is who is more qualified for this 24/7 on-call job--regardless of sex.
On a personal note, there is no need to irreversibly damage your child and jeopardize your relationship with your child by detailing their flesh and blood's faults. They have no business getting sucked into the middle of your bad situation. A parent's job is to nurture and protect. Let the other person prove, by their own actions/inactions, their character, and be ready to help your child understand choices and consequences. It all works out in the end, and you will come out shining like a diamond for taking the high road--that is love. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:09:09 AM |
And to Tealwood, who said the Vascular Surgeon wasn't paying support?
So I would imagine being a vascular surgeon he would have been finacially able to pay his required cs and still have money left over to provide a second home while his children were or were not able to visit and most importantly have the required funds to return to court to fight/argue for the best interest of the children. and for those who do not have the required $40,000 to $80,000 to stand up in court....well ????
Golfer: The one thing always stressed is fathers have to pay child support. Then fathers need to have a sound quality home for the children to come to with their own rooms and the same standard of living. I did not assume all and every payment was made because it was not mentioned in the transcripts that i briefly read through. So I follow the adage of never "assume" But i have read other court transcripts and the scenario is often the same...5yrs ago the Air Canada pilot who spent 12yrs and numerous court appearances...but by the time he had his situation upheld the relationship with his adult child is perhaps irreparably damaged.
After that if they are able on their single income to still have money left to pay for the court battle......the $20,000 would be good for the first appearance and...but there were 5 judgements that "supposedly" the mother was not in complience with which suggest 5x $20,000 not to mention all the dialogue that can occur between the court appearnces. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:13:03 AM | Hi Tealwood...I'm glad we cleared that up because it will take the defensive arguments off the thread completely....so many times these threads turn into gender wars.
The courts do work both ways where custody is shared.....lol. I shared physical custody of my daughter with her father and to change it now would require I prove he is an unfit father. She is 3. Where there is joint physical custody, the courts support that arrangement equally.
I think the issue that we as a society are facing is bigger than parental rights. There is a strong belief that the relationship between mother and child is sacred and irreplaceable. That is not a new belief. There is also a belief that children need stability and consistency and the satisfaction of that need is best served in one home rather than two until a child is of a certain age (somewhere around 8 or 9 years of age). Are these beliefs valid? I think that is what the debate is about.
As more fathers are challenging those beliefs and organizing groups to represent their views, we are being challenging to change our societal beliefs.
Are women better nurturers than men? Perhaps yes, perhaps no....the answer is yet to come. We first must challenge the belief and be open to the possibility that the belief is false. That is why discussions like this are so important to have.
Please keep in mind that it is not the fault of women that we have the courts we have....society created them. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:23:30 AM | That's a very good, well informed post tealwood. I totally agree that finances (and often gender) play a major role in custody and visitation cases. The only winners in the end are the lawyers.
I can absolutely understand why a parent would walk away. In some instances, it's the most painful yet ultimate sacrifice a parent can make. It may very well be that parent who has the best interest of the child(ren) first and foremost in their mind. Forcing a child to take sides, at any age, is nothing short of torture. In these types of scenarios, it's a heroic act.
However, I don't believe the point OP was trying to open up for discussion was which parent had the custody, rather that there's often an attempt to brainwash a child's allegiance.
how I would ever tell my kids that their dad had abused me (and one of them).
I'm often tempted to tell them that it took both of us for the relationship to end, but I worry that even saying that will be opening the door for more questions than I can constructively answer.
Can you avoid getting into the nitty gritty?
I was, however, looking for a way to say something to the kids when they ask me about the split, without being deceitful or turning into a brick wall.
I keep the information age-appropriate, and I'm very careful not to lie, though I might be committing some lies of omission.
OP .. Number one .. Your children do NOT need to know about the abuse. This only opens up a 'he said' 'she said' situation with your children in the middle trying to figure out who is telling the truth and who isn't.
Number two .. Of course you are tempted to tell them your version of the situation. It is not easy to stand by in silence while all the blame is heaped upon you. However, fight that temptation with all you've got. Vent to a friend or journal your side in order to defend yourself in a manner that does NOT involve your children.
Number three .. As for the nitty gritty, once again this is YOUR business. If I was an old friend or acquaintance that bumped into you, would you tell me all the details ???
Number four .. It is NOT deceitful to not reveal specifics. This is a need to know situation that your kids do NOT need to know. As for turning into a brick wall, that's understandable. You are being put into defensive mode because of his accusations. You'll get over that as the pain subsides, your wounds heal and time passes.
Number five .. You feel like you are committing lies of omission ??? Get over it. This again, is a case of need to know(or not). Not all questions have to be answered in entirety. If you are out socially and someone asks how you are, do you reveal to them that you've been suffering migraines, require a hysterectomy, that your gall bladder has been acting up and to top it all off your car is in the shop ??? I think not. Are you lying by omission to them ??? No one cares or wants the details. If you're feeling major guilt over this I suggest you speak to a priest/minister/religious leader to help relieve your conscience.
Why, who, what, how, whose fault is not relevant. Your dad and I decided that it was best for all concerned that we no longer live together. We are still a family and love all of you. We simply choose to live in different places. End of story.
Btw .. I hope the child who was abused is in counselling of some sort. That can affect them for a long time if not properly dealt with.
Good luck OP. This will all be a distant memory soon. Keep on gritting those teeth.
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:43:45 AM | I think the issue that we as a society are facing is bigger than parental rights.
This is actually the problem that creates polarization. It has nothing to do with parental rights, it has to do with children's rights. Parents still have all the rights in the world to raise their children, it's the children's rights of having their best interests truly represented that is the real issue. I can do my job as a dad in whatever time I'm given with my daughter. But the same can be said for her mother. She has two homes... that's not going to change. Stability and consistency is created by the environment you create, not by restricting time in one home. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:53:58 AM | My kids have asked over the years, and I've always told them the simplest truth about it, which is simply that their mom fell in love with another guy. They know this anyway since she had introduced the guy to the kids and was building her new family even before she told or left me.
I'm sure there were things I said within hearing of the boys, but as much as I disliked my ex, we were both conscious of the fact that our beef had to be kept from the kids.
My ex was really good about the kid custody. In fact, she was the one who suggested we have joint custody right across the board which is why I have my kids 50% of the time. She, of course, had done all of her homework in the months before she left. She also had been through it once before with the bio-dad of my stepson.
As others have suggested, OP, I think saying something along the lines of you and your ex just not being about to live together is enough for their ages. No doubt as they get older, they'll ask for more detail. It still comes up occasionally with my sons and it's been almost 8 years.
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 10:13:25 AM | | Tealwood, you are right, you did not assume every payment was made and that is the problem. You chose to assume payments were NOT made until proven otherwise. That attitude stinks. Alot of Fathers do have comparable homes and set ups for their kids. I have always made sure my son has his own bedroom and a home that he feels at home in. Point I make is that the Mother is always given the benefit of the doubt while the Father is treated like a sperm donor made of money until it is provne that the Mother is a screwup, before the Father gets a voice. I know, I have been there. Childrens Service do not care about Fathers rights until they feel the Mother can not be salvaged. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 10:28:58 AM |
Number two .. Of course you are tempted to tell them your version of the situation. It is not easy to stand by in silence while all the blame is heaped upon you. However, fight that temptation with all you've got. Vent to a friend or journal your side in order to defend yourself in a manner that does NOT involve your children.
malley thank you for your comments in respect to the post. But I might not be in complete agreement with this premise. I once followed this line of reasoning until I found that untruth started to be seen or remembered as factual reality.
HAP or hostile aggressive parenting can if unchecked create false or distorted memories. This emotional abuse is the cornerstone or start of the alienation that is or was found in the court case. It is or can include efffectively brain washing or implanting false memories
It is a manipulation that if allowed to go unchecked or unchallenged can cause irreparable damage to relationships with children.
Dr. Richad Warshak who wrote Divorce Poison offered a number of tools and strategies as how a parent can reduce or eliminate the effectiveness of a parent who is trying to wage this battle againts a parent.
But the strategy also requires that you are not asking or prying into what may or may not have been said. You have to be open and wait until they ask or inquire themselves. And not then place the child in a position of having to make a choice between to opposite stories. But instead have them question the reasoning or logic behind the story they might believe to be true.
Right now I have a single father who is looking to re-aquire a relationship with his son's after his wife in anger over his infidelity has soured the relationship with his sons. They refused to vist and have not spent a night with him in over 2yrs. At this point he has opened dialogue and they spend small amounts of time and one almost spent the night. he has admited that most if not all of the fault was his..even though the marriage was bad...but has only gently questioned some of the assertions that the mother makes asking the boys if the comments seem reasonable and ask them to look at both sides. i am sure he will sometime this year have at least one of his sons stay at his home...and will slowly start to build on the relationship by being open...offering his position without getting into a he said ///she said confrontation as if he does...he will lose to the custodial parent. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 11:07:17 AM |
Tealwood, you are right, you did not assume every payment was made and that is the problem. You chose to assume payments were NOT made until proven otherwise. That attitude stinks. Alot of Fathers do have comparable homes and set ups for their kids. I have always made sure my son has his own bedroom and a home that he feels at home in. Point I make is that the Mother is always given the benefit of the doubt while the Father is treated like a sperm donor made of money until it is provne that the Mother is a screwup, before the Father gets a voice. I know, I have been there. Childrens Service do not care about Fathers rights until they feel the Mother can not be salvaged.
I said he should have been able to make the payments....Golfer...I do not know categorically that he did....I never made any suggestion assumption that they were not made...but if I made a poor choice of wording...then i apologize..but since he would be looking for the courts to support his premise or position then he would be foolish to leave open any suggestion that he was not fully compliant on his side of the issue.
You are also a custodial father and I would never assume that your ex is not paying paying cs. Even though American Census statistics supports the premise that the majority of custodial men do not receive or have a cs order.
As to Children's services I have been down that road and have been given some very good insight by some woman who are part of that climate. The most important realization is understanding the preconceived attitude or belief that many of those woman have as part of the reasoning they had when entering the professional. The next aspect is reading and understanding the mandates that they are required to follow as past of CFSA or Child and Family Services Act which mandates the procedures that the CAS must follow. It was amended in 2000 making the test weaker so that the CAS can become involved.
The CAS is inundated with parents making comments and false allegation in respect to the parenting or lack of parenting in high conflict divorce cases. If you as a custodial father need their intervention it is available by using the interpretation of the act by using the specific terminology required to establish Section 37(2) where the child is at risk....and potential emotion harm included in 2000.
As to false allegations...my ex used up her one free pass as outlined by Nicholas Bala in the Canadian Family Law Quarterly 1999 and cited in numerous family court decisions.
But Golfer I do understand where you are coming from. As a father proving yourself as being fit and actively involved with your child or children is not sufficient. Even if you show yourself as being better you are given little to no consideration unless the mother is in agreement. The reality is case law does not support the premise of joint custody unless all parties agree on it.(Canadian case law)
I know I hear some suggest it is changing but I ask for someone to show specifically in a court decision where the mother was against shared joint custody and the courts ruled against the mothers wishes. I have seen where they wanted things a specific way and the judge was able to work on compromises...but case law is explicit and then it falls to the tender years doctrine...where they suggest "best interest is the mother" | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 11:23:25 AM | The tender years doctrine is the root issue of everything. Now is the time to really take a hard look at what is says and the validity is holds today.
Society evolves....the roles of men and women have changed over the years and the law should reflect those changes. Until the law is challenged, it doesn't change. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 12:33:19 PM | My whole comment is basically summed up best by saying that the best interest should no longer be assumed to be with the mother.
As to your comment, I am Canadian and I do have a Custody order for my son and his mother is to pay me support. She is 8 months behind and I finally got a defualt hearing for her. After meeting with duty counsel at the court house to see if there was more that I could do, their reaction was suprise that I have gotten so far so fast with Family Responsibility Office. They also told me that agency discriminates against Fathers and does not go after deadbeat mothers the same way they go after deadbeat fathers.
So the whole family legal system needs a drastic overhaul to reflect the time we live in. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 2:01:27 PM | Casino Man it took more than ten years so it is not like the judge really did anything. No doubt the children were almost adults anyway making it a moot point for that case. However, it may set a precedent for future cases.
Yeah, because at 9... you're almost an adult.
The OP stated that it was more than a decade. I doubt that children born to a couple divorced more than ten years ago, especially when the ex has such hostilities, will be a 9 years old.
In any event, after I posted, Tealwood and not the OP posted what appears to be an article that may or may not be the same case in which the youngest girl was 9. If the same case, there are discrepancies which, considering how sloppy with the facts the media is, would not be unusual.
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Please keep in mind that it is not the fault of women that we have the courts we have....society created them.
Actually men created the courts we have. It is rather ironic that men complain and even blame women for the courts they created. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 2:06:39 PM | Wow.
I simply can not fathom going in and out of court and fighting with someone that i thought enough of at one time to sleep with, and living a life full of hostility towards an ex.
Is that REALLY good for a child?
I feel very thankful for my life after reading this thread. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 2:48:03 PM | | um kelley, courts were originally created by men....but we women have had rights for a long time, a long enough time that if we had wanted to change them, we would have challenged them, therefore since we didn't challenge them, men and women now own the courts we have. There are many ways to view something...yours and mine are but two ways to view the same thing. Have you ever heard the term tacit acceptance? | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 2:51:44 PM | A Toronto judge has stripped a mother of custody of her three children after the woman spent more than a decade trying to alienate them from their father.
I really don't know how I feel about this... I disagree with a parent brainwashing their child against their ex. I think telling a child about their father/mother being abusive ***hole etc is only going to hurt the child. I for one would never do this to my child.
As for the judge's rulling , I don't know. The children have been with their mother for goodness know's how long, she may have been in the wrong to say things about the dad but for the children to be taken away from there mother , who is this hurting? I think this will hurt the children more in the long run. Taken away from there mother and home. This is unless there was abuse at home by the hands of the mother.
I can't see this being a happy thing. I would have made the parents go to some sort of work shop. The mother could sort it out with her children and make up as best she can for saying the things she did about their father. The father could see the children as much as he wants. I would make the parents sort this out.
Taking the children from their mother, and home. Yes! we know she did wrong and disagree but to her kids she is ther mother who they more than like love.
I am in Ireland and I have to say, I don't think any thing like this could ever happen. The child would only be taken of the mother if the child was at some sort of danger /risk from the mother. Bad mouthing the father wouldn't be reason to lose custody. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 2:58:20 PM | Wow.
I simply can not fathom going in and out of court and fighting with someone that i thought enough of at one time to sleep with, and living a life full of hostility towards an ex.
Is that REALLY good for a child?
I feel very thankful for my life after reading this thread.gree with you,
I agree with you 100%. I am thankful that I don't have these worries. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 3:16:29 PM | I don't know anything about the case as I said I am in Ireland. I understand that that just because there was no physical abuse with the children that psychological abuse is as bad. I just meant here in Ireland a child is only taken from the mother where there is /abuse ,drugs etc.
People may not like this on the forum.To be honest its mostly mothers who get full custody here. I don't know anyone who has joint custody. That doesn't really happen. Father's may see children weekends , overnight or day visits. I myself have I guess full custody as we have never been to courst but my daughter lives with me. Her father has her every sat for the day, maybe two evenings after work for 2 hours, and on the occassional overnight stay. I get on great with my ex. He has taken our daughter to Canada twice since she was born for a week each visit to see his folks.
I find it hard as I can't understand mum's who hurt their children. I would die to protect my children. I do know that it happens thou. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 5:06:20 PM | I hear what you're saying tealwood, but this can turn into a nasty battle with the children smack dab in the middle.
If an ex is so cruel and immature as to bitterly tell his young children the awful terrible things that mommy did to daddy, it serves no purpose for their mother to retaliate. Yes, I'd likely be extremely angry and feel defensive, but what about the best interest of the children ???
Finances or child support should play no role whatsoever in this. Having the ability to make monetary contributions or not doesn't define a quality parent. Sometimes, the most beneficial bestowments are not of the material nature. I'm not implying support shouldn't be paid, but default of payments is sometimes used as a reason to withhold visitation. I've always felt that a child has the right to know both parents.
That said, there are extenuating circumstances as well. If there's proven active substance abuse, severe untreated mental illness or any emotional/physical assault involving the children or allowing them to witness such actions.
I believe a lot of the problem does lie lies within the overburdened system. Child Protection and Childrens Services are over worked and have too high a number of case loads to give any the attention they need. As well, there is , as already stated, too many false accusations being tossed about. These are causing an increased backlog in an already overburdened system. The problem then becomes .. who is and who isn't legitimately worried about the safety of their child(ren) ??? Which ones are bitter and out to seek revenge for a relationship gone sour ??? It appears to me that these allegations have become so common that the courts have almost become hardened to them.
In the ideal world, with the resources available, there should be some safety measures in place. If random drug or alcohol testing could be done to ensure the parent is indeed clean. Perhaps the child(ren) could regularly visit a pediatric psychologist to be assesed for signs of abuse of any type. Mandatory counselling upon separation for the parents to enable them to see and hear first hand the damage this childishness can inflict.
I'd hate to be in this situation myself. Unless you have the finances available, it is very difficult to avail of any these services. Wait lists of upwards of a year is commonplace. There wouldn't be anything more frustrating, to me as a parent, than to be made to wait helplessly on the sidelines feeling powerless. In the interim, the child is still under court order to spend time with the alleged offending parent.
Just because these kids have no bruises doesn't mean that she didn't hurt them.
So very true golfer38. Bruises and cuts heal; emotional wounds fester and leave permanent scars.
I simply can not fathom going in and out of court and fighting with someone that i thought enough of at one time to sleep with, and living a life full of hostility towards an ex.
I concur Sunrise 1976. Not only that, your child(ren) are the living breathing result of that love. Why do these people not realize that it is them, not your ex, who ends up damaged and destroyed as a result of this hostility ??? | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 5:35:34 PM | #1. I agree 100% with the judge. I've seen first hand a mother actively trying to alienate a child from his father and it turned my stomach. I felt so badly for that child.
As for the rest of it, I don't see a problem with telling the children that the relationship's end was not the sole fault of one party (in kid friendly words) and if they ask you for details, tell them that you do not believe it is something they should have to carry the weight of. That the end of their parents' marriage is an ADULT matter, not for children's minds to worry about.
If you tell them that he abused you, they will, first doubt it and second, have the weight of adult problems on their mind. What your ex is doing is emotional abuse and he should be ashamed - some day they will realize that there is no way you were soley responsible for the end of the marriage - and they will carry anger towards him for lying to them for years and trying to alienate them from you. | |
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